what could have been.
spoiler alert: i linked this
what could have been.
Sigh? What could have been? We saw what could have been. Him staying 3 or 4 years means he wasn't the Burke we knew, or ran into injury trouble.
Burke won a Big Ten Championship as a Freshman and might have been a first round pick. He came back and was an All-American, All-Big Ten, POY, and led the team to a NCAA runner up finish.
I think in any situation this earns a player the right to challenge himself at the next level. He conquered the college game and we reaped the benefits.
I think he means what could have been had the Pistons drafted him.
i think what yakattack might be referencing is that detroit had a chance to draft him and passed.
could be wrong tho...
yes this. I was referring to KCP over Burke.
agree. Didn't finish my thought.
I had a fear that somehow he wouldn't translate to the NBA. Good to be wrong here
Would someone please explain how Trey lacks "elite" athletic ability. Top player in college hoops, potential NBA rookie of the year. In my next life, please, lord, endow me with the lactk of "elite" athletic ability Trey Burke possesses.
should top player in college hoops = elite athletic ability? jimmer fredette, evan turner, tyler hansborough, j.j. reddick, andrew bogut, jameer nelson, shane battier all say no.
potential rookie of the year = elite athletic ability? is every effective nba player effective because they are athletic? no.
does trey burke being more athletic than you mean he's an elite athlete? i doubt you are michael phelps.
i love watching trey burke and wish him the best. but just because he is good does not mean that he is a super athlete, or even an above-average nba athlete. it isn't even that subtle of a distinction to make.
that you never answered the question as to why it is that Trey lacks such ability, or what such ability constitutes. Anyone who has watched his training videos can attest to a great deal of athletic ability, at least of a kind that most of us can relate to. So tell us exactly what this means at the next level. . . instead of just shaking your head at our ignorance.
Hey, I love Trey as much as anyone around here, but you cannot seriously believe that he has NBA elite level athletic ability. He just doesn't. For example, he posted 36.5 in vertical and 11.09 agility. Those were some of the worst in his group. Compare that to the elite athletic guy in the same draft, Oladipo. He posted 42 in and 10.69. Trey is not in the same league athletically.
gets thrown around too casually which makes it lose it's luster as a word.
there is a very real distinction between basketball skill and athleticism, and it is pretty obvious that burke relies on a hefty dose skill with an average or above average base athleticism.
So by that logic, Earvin Johnson, widely considered the greatest point guard of all time, couldn't be great because his measurables weren't great.
does a player need to be able to throw down monstrous jams to be great at basketball? do they need to be able to run a 4.4 40 to dribble a basketball? no and no.
but if you take two people with the exact same abilities at dribbling, shooting, passing, court vision--actual basketball SKILL--and give one of them a 42 inch vertical with lightning quickness and usain bolt speed, and the other a 36 inch vertical with above average (for NBA) speed, they will not be the equal players.
on the flip side, if you take a player who is miles above the next closest player in terms of passing, court vision, and add a once-in-a-generation combination of size and dribbling skills, but put them in a body with only above average speed, quickness and leap, that person can still be the greatest ever player at his position--BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE BASKETALL SKILL.
A 6'9" guy playing point guard didn't have good measureables? Magic was half a head taller than every opposing PG.
Tom Brady is among the best in the NFL. But by NFL standards, Tom Brady is far from an elite athlete.
A healthy Mitch McGary might be better than GRIII, but GRIII is more athletic.
In Trey's case, he possesses excellent hand eye coordination or he couldn't be the point guard that he is with excellent dribbling and passing skills, as we saw over his two years at Michigan, and an ability to block a shot at least a foot over the rim in the NC game. He also can control his body well enough to penetrate to the basket surrounded by giants.
Would Steve Nash be considered an "elite" athlete?
that eye-hand coordination is an innate athletic ability that is often overlooked, and trey burke probably has great ability (relative to other NBA players) in that regard...but that is still just conjecture because it isn't really something that is measured in predraft workouts.
but we've already established that he isn't a huge leaper relative to other nba players. so, yes he can block a huge shot, but he's not going to be playing above the rim like westbrook or rose, etc.
and no, i doubt steve nash would be considered an elite athlete because his measurables aren't going to be on the level of ELITE (ie a distinction reserved for like 5-10 players in the entire league at that position) athleticism.
now, do examples like trey burke and steve nash demonstrate that being considered an elite athlete is irrelevant? absolutely not, in my opinion. it just proves how great they are at the actual game of basketball, because, unlike better athletes, they rely on actual basketball abilities that they acquired through hours and hours and hard work.
The main knock on Trey is that he isn't super-quick. He's not slow by any means, but he's not another Iverson. That doesn't mean he can't still have a really good career though.
I wonder how many players have won both College POY and NBA Rookie of the Year.
More than 10 I'm guessing. Happens every few years. Blake Griffin most recently.
So what's your point? He was still a rookie.
And he won ROY which makes him the most recent recipient of both if I'm not mistaken.
He would be in elite company:
Going backwards players to have won both the Naismith and the NBA ROY awards:
Kevin Durant, Elton Brand, Tim Duncan, Larry Johnson, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Michael Jordan, Ralph Sampson, Larry Bird and Lew Alcindor.
Out of the ones not in the league anymore, only Larry Johnson is not in the HOF.
now *thats* a case of "what could have been". the fact he was able to reinvent himself as a perimeter player after losing his athleticism to injury hints at what his potential was.
I would've loved to have a Burke Piston jersey. Would've been motivation for me to get to the Palace more.
I would love to see him win Rookie of the Year, both for his sake and for the sake of Michigan's recruiting of point guards.
Suck it, Dumars.
TheLastHoke is obviously not David Thorpe.
I never cease to be amazed at the stubborness of those that still can't admit KCP was a mistake. Christ, it's okay to be wrong once in a while. I've made it an art form.
so far KCP show that he can be an elite defensive player. At worst, he'll be a 3 and D type player which isn't terrible.
Saying it's a mistake is dumb at this point since it's both their rookie year and we don't know the final product.
Effort with actual production. So far this guy has proven himself to be a guy that hustles, but doesn't bring much else to the table. HE IS NOT a shut down defender and HE IS NOT an elite shooter. Maybe he can develop into both later in his career and hopefully by next yr for our sakes, but as of now he is a below avg NBA player
tend to ignore the fact that it would be unlikely we could have pulled off a brandon knight trade had we drafted burke, as we would have lost a lot of leverage.
it's definitely a losing argument to say that, straight up, kcp over burke was the better choice. but, if we are gonna take the captain hindsight approach, i would argue that kcp + jennings is greater than burke + knight.
No player is a shut down defender, not with the current NBA rules. KCP has been a really good defensive player and that is by itself very useful in the NBA. Advanced metrics showed that KCP is excellent in that department. Defense is production. People think production measure with points, assists, rebounds, blocked shots, etc., but they don't tell the story about defense. Look at KCP's touches per minutes, it's very low because he's the #5 option on the team (which is understandable because of Jennings, Smith, Monroe and Drummond getting the majority of the touches).
KCP is not below average NBA player. He's above average. Hard to produce when he's the 5th option on the team and Monroe, Drummond, Smith taking up rebounds. Jennings handling the ball a ton and getting tons of assists. KCP's role is to play defense and shoot 3s which he is suited perfectly for the team.
Look at the Pistons defensive numbers with KCP on the floor. A below average NBA player would not be playing good defense.
If KCP could actually, you know, SHOOT the basketball, he wouldn't be the 5th option
because Jennings, Monroe, Smith and Drummond are all taking touches away from KCP. He's the #5 option by default. It's hard to shoot accurately when you don't get the ball.
For your argument is by using "advanced" defensive measurements then you re kinda proving everyones point. Ive watched all but about 4-5 games this year and I see opposing 2 guards give KCP the bizness on a nightly basis just like Afflalo did last night for Orlando. KCP is asked to do exactly what THJ is doing in NY. Campare the 2 and maybe the bigger argument is whether Timmy should have been taken instead of KCP.
because NBA is a two way games where players plays both offense and defense. Sure there are some night where players did not have a good night like a bad shooting night or bad defensive night. That doesn't take away the overall season production which matters more than a single game production. KCP is being asked to guard tightly and is very good off the ball (he ranks 13th in the league in that category).
I think this is the sort of news that helps Michigan in the long run, if we are not only sending great talent to the NBA, but talent that is getting early kudos like this.
Trey did an interview with NBA>com about a week ago - HERE - where he talked a little bit about being part of programs that have been on the rebound starting in high school and how he hopes to do similar things with the Jazz like he accomplished here despite the differences in competition level.
thanks for recommending this. Didn't know he was such a fan of Iverson. Good stuff about Stockton's recommendations to him. Very candid about the deficits in his game. Love when he notes that just two years ago he was moving into a dorm and no one in Ann Arbor knew him.
I hope Trey has a long and distinguished career, but I don't think we have seen him hit the rookie "wall" yet. It exists for nearly all rookies as they acclimate to the grinding schedule and style of play.
That said, the NBA has been calling a less physical game than college in recent years - maybe we've overestimated Tray's fragility in the League.
He has no concept of a wall
all rookies will go through the rookie wall because they haven't experienced 82 games and most of it are 3-4 games a week. That's tough grind. They need to learn when to conserve energy and when to expend energy. That's something they have to go through.
I wasnt serious but...ok
That's true. Also, he missed the first 18 games to start the year, so he's relatively fresh.
I think he'll continue to have a pretty good year. I do think that Utah being as horrible as they are has helped him get comfortable leading the team and getting into the groove. As the PG he needs the ball in his hand, and without a dominating other player he's done well to take the lead. I do think he'll win ROY this year, just because the expected top players haven't really done anything.
Or Denard is never OT!!!! Joe D is a moron for passing on him.
I've posted this before. Joe D is a puppet and a moron.
The real puppets are the idiots like Vincent Goodwill who take to Twitter or DetNews on a nightly basis and carry the water for Joe and bash Trey's game in defense of the pick.
Meh, Joe's had some good drafts the last couple years. It doesn't bother me that joe passed on Burke, I only care that Trey's is in a good spot in the league for him to develop.
Drafting Drummond and Monroe didn't take any particular genius though - those were extremely obvious calls.
with a team he built himself. That by itself a rarity because parity does not exist in the NBA with the Bulls, Lakers, Spurs and Heat winning NBA titles.
He deserves credit for building the 2004 team, but also deserves blame for what he's done since. It doesn't have to be an either/or. He traded nothing for Rasheed Wallace, but also wasted a ton of cap space on Ben Gordon and Charlie V. The question going forward is whether he's capable of duplicating the moves he made from 2000-04 or not.
ok with Jennings, although his defense needs a lot of work. Maybe it's because I was used to Brandon Knight running the point. That being said, I'm dissapointed in Joe for not drafting the kid that definitely would have helped ticket sales and has proven he can make big men on his team (McGary in last year's tourney) better than what they are. I feel Trey right now has more upside than Jennings as it currently stands, and you can always draft or sign a free agent two guard that can d up good and clang shots (the current version of Caldwell-Pope).
this? If so, how?
For the sake of my own sanity, I think I'm gonna be done being mad at Dumars every time I see something like this and just be happy for Trey.
Also, I can't imagine that this is OT.
but I'm not there yet. If you have success, will you be my sponsor? I want my "ESPN writes a column on Trey and I didn't get a searing pain in my gut" coin.
Would be great to see him win ROY.
being mad at Joe D for taking KCP over Trey. Both players ended up in a good situation and Trey would not have been asked to carry the team if he was drafted by the Pistons, not with Monroe, Drummond and Smith on the team. It's debatable that Trey would have upgraded the team because of Jennings.
That Trey is a special player, winner leader and great role model and Jennings isn't.
And the Pistons wouldn't have traded for Jennings had they drafted Burke.
Imagine if the pistons would have traded for a good scoring #2 guard. Then drafted trey. Pretty good young lineup for years to come. Dumars screwed this one up.
Jennings is 24 and is averaging 17 ppg and 8 apg. Burke's numbers aren't anywhere near Jennings at this point and is inefficient bc of shot volume. Jennings has elite athleticism and can blow by defenders with ease. Jennings is very adept in PnR situation. Both don't play defense.
Look at KCP. He shown that he can be a good shooter and be an elite defensive player. He's a better athlete and has the ability to make contribution other than scoring which is perfect for the Pistons right now because they don't need him to score to win games. KCP will be at worst 3 and D type player which isn't a bad thing.
Jennings averages 3 more shots per game than Burke. Burke is shooting .391, Jennings .398. Both guys have been inefficient shooters, with Jennings even more high volume.
If he has elite athleticism, how come Jennings is so terrible on defense?
to play great defense. It's mainly all about effort and brain but it does help to have it. Jennings showed little interest playing defense. That's why.
Burke isn't too good with the pick and roll.
People act like the Pistons are studs--and that it is attributable to Dumars' 2013 moves--Jennings, Smith and Caldwell-Pope. Rather, the Pistons are 14-17 in the East--having just been spanked by a weak Orlando team and 1-10 against the West--where Trey plays most of his games. Smith and Jennings aren't really making the Pistons meaningfully better--particularly for the additional money spent. If Joe deserves criticism it is for bringing Smith in at the 3--a position he clearly isn't meant to play. And not only were the Bucks not really crying when Jennings left-- but check out Knight's and Middleton's numbers of late.
It is those who feel the need to defend Dumars who can only do so by denigrating Trey. Some of you say you aren't, but you are. Those questioning the decision felt so on draft day and the numbers (and expert opionions) back it up today. We don't know yet how Burke and Caldwell-Pope will eventually play out. But to suggest that the results--objectively and subjectively--to date suggest anything close is just being close-minded. Trey has had and will have ups and downs, but overall he has performed very well and better than expected. Even assuming Caldwell-Pope is anywhere as near as good defensively as proffered, he contributes absolutely zero on offense. I appreciate that he is the 5th option when he is on the court--playing with two ballhogs--but he provides almost no points, virtually no assists and remarkably few rebounds for 20+ minutes a game. He cannot create his own shot, apparently cannot dribble more than once or twice--frankly, he's hardly being guarded.
My suggestion would be that when Trey has a good game--and the Board chooses to celebrate it--that those who want to rain on the parade just let it go. And whenever Caldwell-Pope has a good game feel free to post it. I promise I won't choose that time and place to pick on him (or Dumars for that matter).
Check the threads bro. People denigrating Trey aren't the problem. It starts out with people bitching about the Pistons not taking Trey and devolves from there.
the defense of Caldwell-Pope (almost) always leads to denigrating Trey. The not-taking-Trey proponents really have nothing factually to support their position at this time--hence why silence would be an appropriate option. Now, if the Pistons had instead drafted Carter-Williams, and people were still bitching about not taking Trey, you might have an argument.
which is understandable because they were figuring out how the new pieces work, but they have played a lot better lately. They are the only team in the leagueto beat the Pacers and the Heat on the road. They show that they can beat the elite teams in the league. They are prone to inconsistencies because the overall pieces dont' necessarly mesh because of Smith, Drummond and Monroe.
the Pistons are playing awful. AWFUL! The only thing you can hang your hat on is the wins over the Pacers and the Heat--the latter has a number of bad losses. I agree that with Smith and Jennings (and Monroe and Drummond) the Pistons are more capable of beating better teams on occasion than they were last year. But neither Smith or Jennings are winners IMHO, and they have proven yet again that they often "don't show up". If meshing were the only problem, the Pistons would be on an upward trajectory. Factually, they aren't--as recent losses to Washington, Charlotte and nipping the Celtics in OTproves. Kinda like the Michigan football team--the arc during the season was upside down.
Jennings has been the poster child of inefficiency in the NBA for years now! How can you even make that comparison?!?!
Burke was a great college player and has been a high-volume if erratic pro. His numbers are fine if you ignore the shooting, minutes, etc. and just look at raw numbers. He seems like a really good kid and I wish him the best, but what has Jennings done to make you think he isn't a good guy?
But I would rather have burke and a #2 guard for the guys we traded to get jennings.
You can appreciate Burke without bashing Jennings who has done nothing to earn it.
You're at the bottom of page 1 and the response is likely on page 2.
But the Pistons wouldn't have or need Jennings if they drafted Burke.
Knight would be a reasonable backup or they could've traded him for a SG instead of Jennings.
If Burke wins ROY, Dumars should win a pink slip.
If The Pistons make the playoffs, Dumars can stick around. I don't think anyone cares about how a player on one of the worst teams in the West does in Motown.
Is making the eastern conference playoffs really that big of an accomplishment?
Considering they haven't done in years, it kind of is. It isn't a huge deal, but definitely a step in the right direction.
Under normal circumstances, it certainly would be, but if the Pistons make the playoffs with a losing record, I'm not sure. At that point you'd probably be better off in the lottery again.
Woah woah woah ... Uhhhh did they forget Anthony Bennett?
It always amazes me how many "Angry Piston fans" there are on the site whenever a Trey NBA post shows up. But whenever anything NBA shows up, nobody can be bothered to talk about it
A part of that has to do with this site's stated distaste for Joe Dumars and him not drafting Burke, which brings out everyone's inner sportscaller.
And I still don't get it. The pistons had a trade in the works to get an established PG.
Oh yeah. The issue has always been this notion that drafting Burke would have driven local interest in the team, which I'm not sure would have been the case even if Burke had stepped in day 1 and been an elite PG. And as we saw with Mateen Cleaves, sometimes being local puts lots of unneeded expectations on a young player, though at least in Burke's case he seems capable of playing in the NBA.
Burke is in a good spot, and Detroit is contending for a playoff spot. I don't see why both can't exist without it destroying some unified theory of basketball around these parts.
really glad to see trey and tim doing so well. i expected big things but they are far exceeding them.
it is good for the program to have established nba talent, but one does have to wonder if the talent on last year's squad was better than given credit... not doubting beilien but i thought he run said more about his genius, but maybe we just had a damn good backcourt. or both.
so sick of dumars. i would have bought league pass to see trey on the pistons.
Tired if seeing all these "Dumars is dum" posts when ppl want to talk about Trey Burke. I just care about Michigan players doing well and not about the pistons stupidity.
Yeah, he's so dum.
At least 2 wolverines didn't get the 2013 sucks memo. Really glad TH is earning praise as well!
In a win vs LAL tonight. Joe D was probably stuffing his face with pigs in a blanket trays all night.
Meanwhile, KCP managed 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, and 4 fouls in 24 minutes in a 92-109 loss to the Magic tonight.
One game sample size or not, I would take Burke any day of the week over that.
It takes a complete lack of effort to get 0 rebounds in 24 min of play. What a joke.
Yeah Dumars is so dumb and stupid. He has no idea what he's doing. I still haven't forgiven him for drafting Andre Drummond...
Drafting Drummond at #9, when he'd been projected to go as high as the top 3 by some, did not take any remarkable insight. He fell into Joe D's lap. That stroke of luck may have saved his job.
I love when Joe drafts Drummond, or Prince, or Stuckey, or anyone else that plays well relative to where they were drafted, it is easy and he should have done it. When he drafts someone bad, he is the worst GM ever and should be canned. I know you didn't really say that, but Joe gets zero credit for any pieces of this team who play well and all credit for anyone underperforming. Just a funny observation.
joe got a ton of credit for taking prince in the 20's (and okur in the second round of that same draft). he probably gets the right amount of respect for drafting stuckey.
drummond, monroe, and knight were all obvious picks. one might have said the same about burke, but....