OT: Highlights of SDSU's 35-14 win v. Navy in 2010 Poinsetta Bowl
SDSU beat two teams with winning records and both were academies, AF and Navy who have one dimensional offenses. The other 7 wins came against teams with a combined record of 46 freaking games below .500. In other words an average record slightly worse than 3-9. Yes they had some close close games against good teams who where probably overlooking them, but if you're implying Brady Hoke is a legitimate candidate please stop posting.
He's not implying anything. Brady Hoke is legitimately a coaching candidate, as much as you wish it were not so. Thus, posting video of his team so that we can understand his system, play-calling, etc is relevant.
Not sure Hoke is really a candidate other than he once coached at Michigan. If we take what DB said at the press conference as Harbaugh isn't coming, then I interpret the statement that we are going to spend some cash this time, to mean Hoke isn't coming.
You don't roll out an armored van loaded with gold bars to entice Hoke to Michigan. You send him a singing telegram and a bottle of Riunite with a note attached that says get your ass to Ann Harbor.
Harbaugh was the only one who was going to fit the "Michigan man" bill, so now wing swing big. Money can change a lot of people's minds. Candidates that were not even thought of come into play once a big pay day comes into play. At least I sure hope so.
Unfortunatly, at this point, he is a legitamate candidate. A good one? No. But we have a good possibility of ending up with him.
Just stop already. Not just you but anybody in general who is bashing the guy before he even has a foot in the door. Sure, he may not be everybody's first choice but damn, this is the same thing that was done when RR got hired on. I have other choices that I would prefer too but if he ends up being the guy DB chooses then so be it. I will support him because he is the coach of this university. How the hell do we know how his current win/loss record will translate to a big time program? We thought we did with RR and look how that turned out. All I am saying is that guy who dreams to coach here is a fine by me and is somewhat more appealing than a guy who you have to pry away from another school and beg to come just so they could possibly leave a few years down the road for greener pastures.
In my defense, I never said I wouldn't support him if he became our head coach. I would support overweight Russian guy who lives in the apartment next to me if he were Michigan's head coach. But until that happens, I stand by my opinion that Brady Hoke (as well as the fat Russian guy who lives in the apartment next to me) are not the greatest options. If either one of them does become head coach, I hope they become the winningest head coach in school history.
The spread runs you!
Can that Russian guy run the spread so we can keep Denard? If so, put him on the list! It wasnt directed solely at you. My apologies. I guess it was just the frustration of the way the whole thing is playing out.
What Brady Hoke's actual record ends up being at Michigan is beside the point. When you hire a coach, you're basically just getting a probability of future success. Sometimes a high-probability guy doesn't work out (everything in Rich Rod's past suggested he'd be very successful at Michigan) and sometimes a low probability guy ends up doing very well (Gene Chizik has worked out better than Auburn fans ever could have hoped for, though whether that lasts past Malzahn is an open question).
Brady Hoke might end up being very successful at Michigan, but there's little in his current coaching career to suggest that's particularly likely. That means hiring Brady Hoke would be a terrible decision.
What Brady Hoke's actual record ends up being at Michigan is beside the point
This is about the strangest thing I've read. How could that be beside the point?
is an excellent way to go broke in the long run. Stupid, low probability decisions work all the time. That's why they're "low probability" and not "zero probability."
Based on the available evidence so far, running a million trials hiring guys with Brady Hoke's resume is highly unlikely to lead to good results. Even if Hoke ended up working brilliantly in this one case, it still wouldn't mean Brandon's thought process or decision making made any sense, or that he had done something wise. It'd probably mean he just got really lucky.
I don't want the success of our next hire to depend on getting lucky.
or perhaps you are Dave? You might want to get used to the idea that Coach Hoke is in the upper echelon of candidates. That's the boat we're in, that's where the carousel is currently rotating. This is our new Maize and Blue reality. It doesn't help to get all venomous because you don't approve of his candidacy; let's just stick with the facts, this situation sucks as it is.
Hoke is a legitimate candidate, which leaves me feeling like David After Dentist asking "Is this real life?"
Well, FWIW, we only beat one more team that finished the regular season with a winning record (UConn, ND, Ill)
And two of those wins came by a combined total of 6 points. So we were really close to only beating ONE winning team this year (UConn).
So you're saying we had a bad season, only slightly better (by this meausre) than SDSU under Brady Hoke. If we fired a coach with a better season, should we hire a coach coming off of a worse season?
And the coach/architect of the season in your post is not a candidate for the Michigan head coaching job.
I'm not saying we should hire anyone in particular, nor am I defending Hoke. I was just pointing out that wins vs. teams with winning records is an incomplete measure to evaluate the effectiveness of a HC candidate. If one person wanted to keep Rodriguez but say that Hoke was terrible, by using the above method of reasoning, Rodriguez couldn't have been much better.
I'm more protesting the nit-picking of stats to justify a preconceived opinion than anything. Especially because the person I was originally replying to was using this method to validate that Hoke cannot be a legitimate HC candidate and it's ridiculous to think so based off of success with a weaker schedule.
Stanford got Harbaugh coming from a team that played a weaker schedule. Same with Tressel at Ohio State. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
I worry that the powers that be won't be willing to give him the time to rebuild the program. Heck, we didn't give it RR. But we are bringing back a lot of starters, so I think that whoever is coach will have some success as long as they can field a competent defense.
I don't think it was the amount of time so much as the appearance of incompetence. A HC is responsible for getting the right people in place on his staff. Shaffer, Hopson, and GERG were catastrophic failures. The fact that they were forced to run a defense that none of them had experience running is a secondary issue.
We will always wonder what could have been, but one good hire on RR's part and we wouldnt be having ANY of these discussions.
I'm more than willing to give Hoke the benefit. Harbaugh's 3 year stint at San Diego wouldn't have been enough for this board either if that's all he had, but now there are plenty that would provide him "oral pleasure" for the duration of his stay at AA if he would come since he has done well at Stanford.
This bickering is NOT good. Hoke isn't my 1st choice (I'm firmly Patterson) but we're already on option #2 and last time it took until option #3 to get someone to say "yes" and that was doomed from the start because of these same divisions.
Signing day is about a month away and if we have anyone left willing to sign by then I'll be overjoyed.
Our definition of winner must be different. Yes, if your being literal, he made Ball State and SDSU "winners" in that in his last or latest season they won more than they lost. By this logic, Rich Rodriguez also turned the corner at Michigan this year and recreated a winner. I'm not all that impressed by a 12-1 season in the MAC or a 9-4 season in the MWC.
Has he had winning seasons? Yes. Has he built winning programs? The answer is either no or remains to be seen
That's a 12-0 season, not 12-1. Hoke left before the loss. The moment he left campus and Stan Parrish took over the team's performance level dropped several touchdowns.
Though in Stan's defense on the bowl loss - the way BSU's prez treated Hoke probably affected the players in a bad, bad way. Then the next season Stan affected them in a bad, bad way.
He was coaching when they lost the MAC championship game to Turner GIll and Buffalo
but apparently at the risk of self annihilation that ability has been removed from us?
I live in the San Diego area and have exposure to San Diego State games. Their performance against top 25 teams is better than you think.
Against Missouri (which looked better and should have beat Iowa) they actually won the game BUT for a missed call by officials which they later admitted to missing.
Against BYU again they would have won BUT for a failure for officials to review the replay which was investigated by the conference. Against TCU the game was very competitive until the final quarter when SD made uncommon errors.
In all these games Hoke refused to blame poor officiating but instead stated we should not have placed ourselves in that position. He is a tough nose coach that believes fundamentals will trump schemes on the football field.
In two years he has made this team VERY competitive whereas in prior years they were a joke.
perhaps it's a sign of how desperate I feel for good news, but that info made me feel the best I've had in days...not that I'm a Hoke guy, but it's good to hear good news about a candidate that really wants us.
"...and should have beat Iowa." What about GARY PINKEL??!? I'm shocked that even the most expansive coach-candidate lists have not included him. He's run a decent, winning program that should have been in the BCS instead of Kansas in '07; his offense would be a good "transitional" system for UM's current talent and he's been 150-86-3 in 20 years in the FBS -- 10 years at Toledo, 10 years at Missouri (so yes, he's a little on the old side). Plus for good measure he was the OC for Don James and Washington during their 1990-91 MNC runs.
I second the notion of giving him a look. As you mention, age is a draw-back.
I think you hit it dead on. I checked out a SDSU message board yesterday and found most of the fans either terrified of losing Hoke or incredulous that we wouldn't want Hoke. Seems like SDSU fans are quite happy with their coach.
Yeah, I have a buddy out here who went to SDSU and follows football very closely, thought about walking on at SDSU, guy knows his stuff. He has been texting me the terrible things he'll do to me if we take Hoke. He's convinced Hoke is the real deal.
Maybe it's because SDSU has been bad forever, or maybe it's because he's watched all of their games under Hoke and truly thinks he's legit. We'll see I guess, but I don't see all the Hoke hate, I just think he's not my top option.
SDSU beat up on a Navy team that you already know beat up on Notre Dame. Yes the same Notre Dame team that Michigan barely beat.
I was impressed with SDSU vs Navy
The ND vs Navy score is thrown around an awful lot. Nobody seems to remember that ND beat a Utah team by four scores. That team went on to beat SDSU the very next week. ND losing to Navy had more to do with a bad game plan from ND than Navy being some sort of mythical team that SDSU should get tons of credit for beating. ND seemed to figure out the veer the next time they played against it. SDSU also had a month to prepare for the triple option instead of a week.
I hope he isn't one of the first options, but he may end up as our best remaining option so he's absolutely a candidate.
Look, it is hard to deduce much about a coach's ability from watching a bowl game of his current team. However, some of that is pretty impressive, especially scheme wise. I am specifically looking at the unreal play-action pass which IMO must be nearly 100% coaching. Would that work against Big 10 Defenses with future NFL players on it? Maybe not but still impressive.
I have followed this blog for a long time. I very rarely write (obviously). This place has become so negative, and is filled with so many self proclaimed experts that I really wonder what has come of Michigan fans. Unfortunately, I attribute a fair amount of this to Brian. Hoke and Miles are obviously legitimate coaching prospects with strengths and weaknesses. Yet he has virtually written them off. Brandon had a hugely difficult task in dealing with Coach Rodriguez, yet Brian says he has botched it into oblivion. It is so thoroughly negative and in my opinion unbalanced and unfair.
In reality, we know only so much about any of the candidates. We also know very, very little about what Dave Brandon's reasons for waiting were (possibilities include Harbaugh and Miles asked him to, Rodriguez was thought to be entitled to put his team on the field for the bowl game, etc.).
If we are fans, why not talk about candidates we would like to see considered, and identify their strengths rather than defame or disparage potential coaches - who, by the way, may very well end up here, have to recruit student atheletes and have to unite the fan base?
Completely agree with you. We will not decide the coach, so why not learn about each potential candidate, and remain optimistic in our analysis. I, for one, just listening to the pressor, find Hoke a straight talking and interesting coach. I don't think we would get anymore vague references about execution with him. To dismiss a coach based on numbers is bonkers, because as we all know RR brought more than numbers during his tenure, but if he is judged solely on his numbers it would seem RR had no redeeming qualities, which is not the case.
"Hoke and Miles are obviously legitimate coaching prospects..."
This is not the case. Hoke, with a losing record in eight seasons as a head coach, no conference championships, and a bowl win at home against Navy, is not a legitimate coaching prospect for the University of Michigan. He wasn't a legitimate prospect for Minnesota or Indiana. If jobs came open at Texas, Alabama, USC, Florida, Miami, Ohio State (and some did just this year), you would never hear Hoke's name mentioned.
But when Michigan needs a coach, cronyism reigns supreme. Hopefully Dave Brandon is opening the door on a new day, but don't blame those who realize what it would mean if he chooses not to (i.e. that Michigan football has definitively become a backward, inbred program where a tenuous prior association with the football program outweighs any and all other aspects of a hiring evaluation).
Miles is someone I have follwed for years since I live in the middle of SEC country. I first thought that the way the locals treated him was "because he's not from around here" thinking. We went to the same school. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is a good recruiter and apparently a pretty good motivator. However, he is one of the worst game coaches I have ever seen. His clock management debacles are legendary. And while he has a good record, he is widely perceived to have done less with more talent than any coach in the SEC in the past decade. He is very fortunate to be in the only major school in a state with as many good high school players per capita as any in the country. And as the face of your program, let's just say that Les will not be any more impressive than Rich was. He is widely perceived, I think fairly to some extent, to be a joke in this part of the country.
so a three star or even a two star who comes in and by their junior/senior season are up for all major awards at their position should never have been offered because non of the schools you mentioned recruited them??!! stats can be made up, some stats that are not made up can be made to fit anything anyone wants them to fit. some coaches rise from complete anonymity, some from decent backrounds, some from great pedigrees, some even rise from the ashes of failures from the past!
i am sure you or anyone else will be able to find coaches in each category who were complete successes/failures. the point is you won't have a say so in who comes here. i know this is a blog and you can voice opinions, that is what this is for. my opinion is i am almost speechless when any conversation comes up about M football and this fiasco!
i dont know who might be brought in and what they will do with our current players, which is more important than who they recruit in the next month! this alone has me more worried than getting top recruits, because i believe that whatever system is brought in we can and will be successful mainly because most or our starters will have two three and four years of experience. not so if our key players transfer!
what i do know is that it hursts when the people around me that root for other teams are laughing at the school that i grew up rooting for and i am remaining quiet for now! someday Michigan football will be back on top!
GO BLUE! GO WOLVERINES!!!!!
No, we need a Rodriguez with LES MILES!
Wait....wuuuuuttt? Doesn't sound as good as 3 yrs ago!
Seriously though, thanks for posting.
In the interest of grammar, I think we should start referring to the LSU coach/ UM coach candidate as "Fewer Miles"
Loose Morals, which he's been called on here many times.
I am trying to be optimistic about everything but I feel our next coach could be anyone of a dozen guys. Is Vegas setting up betting lines?
Maybe if we actually offered him the job this time around, he would accept it. Whatever personal issues former staff members and/or coaches may have had with him, I think he should get a look.
full game is on espn3
I tries to do something like boyz n da pahokee and make an every snap video but I suck with technology
That explains why he was gushing over Hoke during our game and continues to do so on the Gameday set out in AZ.
The SDSU linebacker actually diagnosed a mis-direction play and had a TFL. Color me impressed.
If DB can't lock in a bigger name in 24hrs, get hoke in here. We need someone in place to try to salvage what we can from this years recruiting class as well as minimize the inevitable attrition that will happen.
Yes, let's indulge in some hilariously short-term thinking. Please!
Wait, wait a minute. You forget. He's kind of a big deal.
[I would have posted the Anchorman clip but my f-ing corporate firewall won't let me access the video. Good old corporate America! I hope Brandon's firewall lets him access resumes online . . .]
So you're in full support of a drawn out, in depth national coaching search beginning on January 5th? That's moronic...
If it means avoiding the hire of a substandard candidate? Yes.
- - -
Hoke might be a long-unrecognized diamond in the rough. It's possible. He'll also have my full support if he becomes the coach. But, there's not enough on his CV to make him a good choice at the moment.
I agree, you can't sacrifice the short term for the past 6 weeks as DB has done, and then at the last minute, say we have to jump the gun for the sake of a short-term gain. Let's face it, in the short-term we are dead, which was the risk DB ran when he bet the farm on JH.
If Gary Patterson wanted a day and a half to think about an offer, you would want DB to hire Hoke? You sir are a Fail.
I think every day that goes by and we don't have a coach, both UM and DB are EPIC FAILS.
You are not a smart person.
DB and UM are epic fails, but making a hasty decision soley for the benefit of the short term (this recruiting class) and ignoring the the best ineterest of the UM football program in the longterm is far more senseless than what has transpired to this point.
You seem like the type that would grab the first form of liquid you could find to toss on the fire in an attempt to put it out...problem is, not all liquid extinguishes fire. By making a rash decision here just so UM won't look silly in the shortterm, DB could make things far worse for a much longer period of time.
I haven't had much good to say about DB to this point and his mistakes have been many IMHE. Right now, however, he finally seems to be getting it right. Take a breath and make sure you pick the best replacement you can get. He isn't jumping at the first guy to come along to save face which gives me hope for the mans future.
Patterson won't come to U of M after the treatment and abuse RR received. Unfortunately, what happened here won't soon be forgotten. In addition, Brandon should have fired RR after the OSU game. Waiting was a huge error in judgement and very few coaches have the balls to get themselves and their families and the families of all of their assistants into this situation. This is a problem.
I just hope we are wrong. I can't imagine anyone wanting to put themselves through what RR has endured here over the past few years. It may just be me, but I don't think this is as attractive a job as people like to think given how the coach has been treated in recent history by media, fans, alumni and AD alike. I hope I am wrong and the tradition will overshadow all that, but that is a lot to overlook for a potential coach.
I hope you guys are wrong but I suspect that you're right. I'd still take a shot at Patterson.
We're in a bad position, but we should at least take some time to try to work out a deal with one of the A-list guys.
This is a joke right?
Highlight reels are probably not the best way to judge a coach. They show the great plays that the players make. What I want to see is whether the defense consistently makes their tackles, is capable of playing tight coverage, stays in lanes, is appropriately agressive on on 3-and-6 (etc.) and whether the offense mixes it up enough to keep the opposing defense back on its heels.
That said, SDSU looks good here. Good enough for me to say "Hire Hoke now"? No, but good enough for me to say he merits a long look and a fair shot. Also, good enough for me to be concerned about next Sept. 27 (or whenever it is we play them).
.... key point in pre-game presser from Brady Hoke; go to 7 mins 30 sec as mgoblog doesn't permit linking directly to a point in a YouTube video:
The part at 7:00 covers toughness. It's great as a soundbite, but toughness isn't enough anymore. For example, the kid he was talking about had just lost 35-14 when Hoke was talking about him.
The main problem of the entire Michigan coaching tree is that you can't line up and "out-tough" everyone anymore. It worked in the old days, with 115 schollies and about twenty schools getting on the two TV channels that televised college football on a regular basis while the rest didn't. And even then, it stopped working when Southern Cal was on the other side of the ball.
Nowadays, though, on almost every team, the guys on the other side of the ball are tough, too. If there is no imagination on both sides of the ball, a team is in deep trouble when it runs into someone as tough as they are. Football has evolved from the days of just pushing the other guys up and down the field and daring them to stop you.
Unfortunately, nobody from the MIchigan Coaching Tree seems to have figured that out yet. That would include one Mr Hoke. And I hope it excludes him from the job.
But I thought the B10 was a smashmouth conference? Isn't that all we have to do? Eat pizza and be smashmouth?
Kidding aside, I do think that Iowa and certainly Wisconsin and OSU pushed us around quite a bit. Makes me excited to see what RR's offense and defense can do when they're not 90% underclassmen. Hee hee, I can't wait for that!
Wait, what happened?
Not really. TCU, Stanford, Wisconsin, and tOSU (to a lesser extent) pretty much win by physically dominating both sides of the ball. There is nothing fancy in these approaches, and they are reminiscent of Michigan's teams from the Bo-Mo-Carr Era. The same can't be said for Auburn and Oregon, but it can be said of 2007 LSU, 2009 Alabama, e.g. You can win big without being particularly imaginative.
What I think the "Michigan coaching tree" stopped doing at the end of the Carr Era was connecting with players and instilling a passion for the game. This Hoke has done at SDSU. He has created passion for football in a fanbase where there was little to none.
There may be better candidates available, and I hope those options are explored. But the notion that hiring Hoke would be DOOM needs to die a quick death.
He won't hire anyone until he's talked to Les Miles. Fact.
Borges would probably not come. He wants to be an HC and SDSU would be willing to let him grow into the job.
Rocky Long might well come to AA if Hoke offered. Long is a respected DC and quite capable of succeeding at this level.
And don't sell short wins over Navy & AF. Both are well-coached outfits, especially Navy.
and extremely one dimensional. Both attempted slightly above 12 passes a game and completed a little more than 6 per game for less then 120 yards/game.
What does "one dimensional" have to do with it? Is it easier to stop one dimensional teams? A lot of DCs had problems with Mike Leach's offense. Ask the ACC DCs how much fun they're having with Paul Johnson's offense.
Would he ever leave Tech? Granted he's a southern guy, we know how well that went with some members of the fan base. Can you imagine Denard running the Flexbone? We all know he can pull up and pass when it's there too. Hiring a coach dedicated to a "system" isn't really an option either at this point I suppose.
I think the point being made is that beating a one dimensional team like a rented goalie should not be a demerit on a coach's resume.
Not that PJ would be a good idea here. He is almost as prickly as Miles, though more sane.
Is this what it has come to? I've heard people on here try to diminish Rodriguez's BCS bowl resume because Georgia wasn't as good as other recent SEC Champions, and now we're praising a guy for winning the Commander in Chief Trophy?
If you think AF & Navy - especially Navy - aren't well coached teams........ I can't help you. Maybe nothing can, short of a thorazine prescription.
Jim Tressel seemed to think Navy was well coached LY. Why don't you go ask the folks in South Bend about Navy? Or Bob Stoops about AF?
He beat a bunch of guys who were not offered scholarships to play Division 1 football and you are acting like this justifies handing him the Michigan coaching job. If his two biggest wins in 8 seasons as a head coach are against two service academies with far inferior talent, then his coaching career to this point is pretty crappy.
Again, if he had been an assistant coach at any other school, no one would be taking him seriously as a candidate for this job. If he is hired, it would display the worst kind of cronyism in an already long history of such behavior at the University of Michigan. Hiring Brady Hoke would be the culmination of terribleness.
He's overweight and doesn't have a winning record as a college head coach. Welcome aboard, Sir Charles. Hope you can convince Denard to stay.
meant to place this comment somewhere else.
Jim Tressel nearly got beat at *home* LY by a bunch of guys who weren't offered scholarships elsewhere. ND has dropped 3 of 4 to a bunch of guys who weren't offered scholarships elsewhere. LY, Missouri got punked in a bowl game by a bunch of guys who weren't offered scholarships elsewhere.
And in case you didn't know, college football schedules are generally drawn up years in advance. Brady Hoke doesn't have a lot of say in who gets scheduled.
I revise and extend my remark: you don't need a thorazine prescription, you need an industrial-sized drum of the stuff.
Beating Navy is awesome. I'm so glad our AD fired a guy who proved he could beat the SEC Champions in a major bowl game and built a team that beat the Big 12 Champions in another major bowl game so that we can get a guy who beat Navy one time. Oh, and Air Force too. Beating a team full of future NFL stars doesn't hold a candle to whipping up on future war vets. I mean, Notre Dame couldn't do it so it must be super impressive because they have been awesome at football lately.
We have officially fallen down the rabbit hole.
Navy came closer to beating Ohio State than we did for the last several years. And it could be argued Tressel was outcoached in that game.
If you are seriously trying to measure a coaches worth by beating the service academies I think your critera for measurement is very flawed. Can we be serious for a minute? I am sure there must be a better arguement for hiring B-Hoke than he beat Navy, isn't there? If that is all he has to hang his hat on he is in even worse shape than I thought.
And stop trying to make Navy out to be Florida, or Texas or one of the perennial powers. They are Navy and occassionally beat good teams. Beating them shouldn't be the pinnacle of our asperations IMHE.
Does "last year" really need to be abbreviated? Really?
Is that what "LY" was intended to stand for? I truthfully thought he was replying to a user named LY somewhere further up the thread.
It took me a minute too. Reminded me of trying to figure out what "MDWM"* meant on EDSBS a few months ago.
*Makes dismissie wanking motion, just to save any other ignorant folk like myself the trouble of Googling it.
Hoke needs to move up a notch to a second tier Div. ! team and turn that around (as did JH with San Diego U and then Stanford). If he does that, then we can talk, only if we needed a coach by then, which, god forbid we won't. I'm not saying he can't do it at UM, but I'd rather see more of some additional Hokie Pokie first.
Hiring JH straight from SDU might have been a good call.
Harbaugh never had a losing season at USD, won a conference title (two actually) and has a winning record as a college head coach.
You can say none of those things about Brady Hoke at this point.
That wasn't my point. The post I was responding to seemed to think that it would be better to let Hoke blow up before we made an offer. My point was that the same logic on JH didn't really work out. We waited for him to blow up, and it would appear he is too big a fish for this pond.
Although, I agree Hoke is older and less accomplished than Harbaugh at that particular point.
This link will take you to the San Diego State webpage re: Hoke. It inculdes a video interview and information re: his coaching career.
Interesting little note: The last guy Hoke recruited for M was Leon Hall.
Whether I think Hoke looks like Mike Golic or Artie Lang.
chris christie and jeff garlin.
Then I'll do the honorable thing and drink the Kool-Aid. Until then, I'd like to believe the "flashy" options are being looked at...Hoke is not an exciting candidate that makes me think, 7 months before the first game, that we're going somewhere.
Of course, after the past 3 years, I think it's obvious that "dependable and consistent" (Carr) > "flashy" (RR). So maybe we're all wrong and he's just the plodding non-genius to get us back to 10-2 and in contention...
I'm going to go out on a limb and say Hoke wouldn't be the worst hire ever, but he wouldn't be any better than RR. So in that case, if we picked Hoke, why wouldn't we just stay with RR and bring in a defensive staff instead of restructuring our offense again?
But I think it's at least possible that Brandon presented that course of action to Rodriguez, but Rich rejected it either because of loyalty to his staff or resentment at the degree of leverage the AD's office would have on his coaching decisions. It seemed to me that this topic might have been one reason their meeting was so eternally long.
Well if that was the case, then Brandon had to do what he had to do. Although he should have, maybe he does but it doesn't look it, had a plan in place instead of pinning all our hopes on boy wonder from Stanford. I can't believe RR would go down for GERG though, I am guessing you mean his cronies on the defensive staff supposedly under GERG?
I'm thinking of Gibson, most specifically. I also think that just the principle of getting marching orders from the AD as to staff decisions might be a tough pill to swallow for a head coach.
that RR was stubborn or had blinders on when addressing the defense and special teams staff and his refusal to fix this over 3 years = poor management and an intractable situation.
RR probably told the AD "Just wait it will get better" and Brandon wanted a more concrete plan.
DB is RR's boss and like it or not he has/had the power to fire the entire defensive staff and hire their replacements. It's certainly not the preferred course of action, but if RR was offered that option only a fool would not have taken it and used DB as cover for getting a new staff.
I cannot possibly imagine that RR would have ever thought that the defense would have turned around after 3 years of DOOM with those on staff.
Not saying that's not true, but can someone point me to examples of other coaches/CFB folk speaking highly of him? What, specifically, is he supposed to be good at?
Also, I'm sure it's been mentioned, but Ball State went 2-10 the year after he left. One of the wins was a 2-point victory over Eastern.
There is a "what people are saying" link that will take you to quotes from Carr, Tressel, and John Harbaugh in praise of Hoke.
As to Ball State collapsing after Hoke left, does that mean that he built a weak foundation or that he was the major force that led an otherwise weak program to a 12-2 record? I'm not arguing either way. I think it's a glass-is-half-full/glass-is-half-empty situation.
Since they never came close to equalling that 12 win season in his first five and immediately fell off afterward, I'm inclined to believe that was a severe outlier (perhaps a stronger than usual senior class by MAC standards) than the sign of a guy building a strong program, especially considering that one of his assistants (former Michigan OC Stan Parrish) took over for the implosion and got fired two years later.
To me it looks like Hoke has just been very good at managing his career (he left BSU right on time and walked into a nice roster situation that Chuck Long had set up at SDSU and is getting all the credit).
A buddy of mine is convinced he will take the Michigan job, have two strong seasons with Rodriguez's freshmen/sophomores as juniors/seniors, then bail for a $10 million deal in the NFL right before U-M returns to mediocrity.
Ball State's QB (Nate Davis) left for the NFL draft and was replaced by a senior who rode the bench behind Davis, who barely threw the ball (just over 100 attempts for the season), and who completed less than 50 percent of his passes that year. In other words -- Hoke chose an opportune time to jump ship from Ball State.
Hoke would have stayed if the university prez came up with 700k guaranteed. She didn't like Hoke and only came up with an offer after he presented her with SDSU's offer. They offered 700k guaranteed - base & radio, etc.
The b*tch running BSU offered him basically what he was already making, plus 350k-ish of incentives of varying attainability. It was a BS offer designed for CYA, so she'd look like she cared.
So Stan Parrish got the nod and lost to Tulsa 45-13 - nowhere near as close as the score indicated - in a game where the line was something like -1.5. Davis could see where the program was headed and got out.
And the next year the team stunk because Stan Parrish is 25 years past his sell-by date as an HC.
I'd think the very definition of coaching genius is one who can make a silk purse out of a cow's ear.
I can't create a thread right now but this article in my hometown paper about Steven Kampfer visiting an injured high school hockey player is pretty good:
I'm scouring the internets looking for highlights of Hoke's fourth year, 5-7 campaign in the rapid "turnaround" of Ball State. Can Lloyd Carr help a Michigan Man out?
and then being decent for one and good for another doesn't mean you've "turned a program around."
It means you sucked for 4 years.
Winning 12 games out of the blue and then bailing along with your NFL draft pick at QB only to watch one of your assistants win 2 games the next year and 4 the year after that doesn't sound like the work of someone who "built" anything. It sounds like a coach who had one good year and got out while the getting was good.
Harbaugh just won a BCS bowl game in year 4. Hoke lost to freaking Buffalo in the MAC Championship game, then quit for SDSU in year 6.
Harbaugh has also recruited at a high level for the past few seasons and had two different Heisman Trophy runners up (not exactly a one man team). If they win two games next year with one of his assistants at the helm I will eat my shoe.
So then you're standard for whether Hoke can coach is whether he could win a BCS bowl while at Ball freakin' State?
My standard for whether or not he should be hired at the University of Michigan as the new head football coach is (which is the real question): Has he done anything to merit getting the job in his time as a college head coach?
Answers: Record (losing record over 8 seasons, more losing seasons than winning seasons), program building (had one good year at BSU and bailed right before they went back into the toilet), bowl wins (beat Navy in his home stadium), conference championships (in his best season at BSU he got smoked in the MAC Championship game by a Buffalo team with a much poorer record)
Let me ask you: What has Brady Hoke ever done as a head coach to indicate he is a better option than the guy we just fired, much less the best possible candidate in the country?
Well, about that Buffalo game. Buff had 3.7 ypr and 7.1 ypp. BSU had 3.7 ypr and 7.3 ypp. Buffs had a 74 yard fumble return for a TD. AND a 92-yard fumble return for a TD.
Maybe what *you're* smoking has you confused.
"It sounds like a coach who had one good year and got out while the getting was good."
If it sounds like that to you then you need a hearing aid along with that drum of thorazine.
You are Brady himself, you aren't his cousin at all. That is the only explanation.
Exactly. Ball St. was .500 when Hoke inherited them. The next four years (under Hoke) were each under .500, including a 2 win season. Season five, he was half a game above .500. That just does not mean "turnaround" in my book. It's like saying Schiano has turned Rutgers into one of the elite superpowers in the BCS. That's just not what those words mean.
Well, let's look at those past four years now that he's "figured it out" -- includes the 7-6 season just before his one break-out year at Ball State (including a bowl game drubbing in which his team allowed 52 points -- sound familiar?), and the 4-8 season his first year at San Diego State (a whopping two-game improvement over the 2-10 team he took over). Yeah, he's firing on all cylinders now . . . .
I like Hoke. And, the line of former UM players who would run through a wall for him is both long and famous. He had his hand in recruiting and coaching a lot of great Michigan players.
I do think he resume is a bit overrated. At Ball State, like many do in the MAC, he rode a hotshot QB to a great record, but didnt really leave much for his successor. But, that's kind of how things go in the MAC. You get a QB that can dominate and you win. You're average in an even league otherwise
As for SDSU, I predicted his success more than a year ago at the JCB in one of my first posts over there. But, they didnt come through and had a losing record. Chuck Long really left him in good position to succeed immediately.
Give Hoke credit for picking up those pieces and cobbling together a winner. I feel Chuck Long would have seen this success at SDSU as well had they not lost patience. In a way, Hoke would be facing the same situation here.
Somebody is winning with our players. Why not a guy who just proved he could win with an up and coming roster that somebody left him.
Who knows if he'll work out. Or even get hired. But, it would realy tick me off if this blog and its community does to Hoke what we kept howling the rest of the world was doing to Rodriguez.
So, stop with the hate already. He knows more about football and coaching than any of us on this blog. Period. End of story. It doesnt matter how many UFRs you read or write
So that's it? Debate over? We aren't allowed to air grievances about Hoke against other candidates available? Everyone wanted to talk about CC the whole damn year, but now we should stop? I don't hate Hoke, but I definetly don't think he is the best option out there. Hoke is a tough guy, he can handle it. He isn't even our coach, he doesn't need protected yet. If he does become our coach......I'll back him, but I don't see him being any better than RR with a revamped defensive staff. No one should be hated on(i.e.- His mother walks on her hands and has no elbows, but criticism should be allowed i.e.- I don't think we should risk our program on a man that took five years to turn around Ball State when we only gave RR three).
was referencing his knowledge of football and how to coach compared to you, me, Brian and everyone else. Except Magnus. He's a rock star coach
Brian is already stoking the flames of hate for this guy. And that makes me sad, considering his rightful defense of Rodriguez against the hate thrown to him
It will make me sad if this blog crucifies him upon hiring.
Speaking of debate, can you have that when you're contstantly putting pictures of explosions into threads you dont like?
Rodriguez was actually the coach at Michigan. He also had (and still does have) a winning record as a college head coach.
Arguing that Brandon would be insane to hire Hoke (not a difficult case to make) is not the same as hating Hoke (nor is a humorous claim that Charles Barkley should instead be hired, made only to illustrate the point).
Love you, Brady Hoke. But please stay at SDSU. Or better yet, get a nice cushy AQ job in the new Pac 12 and make loads of cash.
Fun fact about Rodriguez's record in the Big East: Bill Stewart went 28-12 in his tenure at WVU, a higher winning percentage than Rodriguez's 60-26. Stewart's Big East record is also better than Rodriguez's.
It doesn't make Hoke a good coach and doesn't excuse his record, but shines some light on the Big East and the level of competition there. You could make the same argument for the MAC and MWC as well.
I think Brian and others that seem venemous to you are that way because this school has a lot of money to dole out and it would be a shame if we settled on B-Hoke. If it came down to crunch time, then yea, Hoke is your man, but not until other avenues are pursued. I think there is a fear we might blow our load on Hoke without looking for better options because he is a "Michigan Man" and probably has a lot of donor friends.
I only put up nuclear bombs on excessive CC threads, because I knew after the season, we would have this, plenty of time and more stuff to say then while we were in season with a coach already. Talking about coaching changes mid-way through the season was a little hateful towards RR, don't you think? The guy still had an office in Schembechler Hall.
Jamiemac. I'll be nervous as hell and a bit disappointed if we hire Hoke, but I think there's a chance he could succeed if given the opportunity.
Looks to me like the "hate" is actually analysis of the performance of the teams he has coached. That's pretty much the opposite of what Rodriguez faced when he walked in the door at Michigan -- forget his track record, let's talk about his WVU buyout clause, his document shredding, his "win at all costs" attitude in recruiting Justin Feagin, his mistreatment of players with all that extra practice . . . shall I go on? Until Hoke is actually hired, it's fair game to question whether he's the right choice by looking at his coaching resume to date, isn't it?
The rhetoric from Brian and the community has been a pretty good start down that road
The "turnaround" Hoke is getting credit for at SDSU amounts to things like inheriting a highly rated (by MWC standards) QB who had already started as a freshman and is now thriving as a junior in year two under Hoke. I remember another portly fellow who was able to have immediate success after a proven college coach (and Chuck Long was an elite OC with Oklahoma) recruited a strong team but never got to coach them as juniors/seniors. I think he worked at some Catholic school down in Indiana. Vague recollection, not entirely clear, but I seem to remember something like that happening.
"Vague recollection, not entirely clear, but I seem to remember something like that happening."
I'm guessing most of your recollections are vague.
"I do think he resume is a bit overrated. At Ball State, like many do in the MAC, he rode a hotshot QB to a great record, but didnt really leave much for his successor."
So then if Bill Belichick gets run over by a beer truck tomorrow and Rich Kotite is hired the day after and the Patriots immediately fall to pieces would you say Belichick didn't leave much for his successor?
Because while Hoke is no Belichick, Parrish isn't much better than Kotite.
He was Michigan's offensive coordinator during a national championship season and an Orange Bowl winning season. He was also the offensive coordinator at Ball State for Hoke's three best seasons on the job and his only good one.
Acting like he is some bumbling idiot but Brady Hoke exhibits signs of "coaching genius" as you suggested in an earlier post puts you in the running for the title of "Dumbest MGoBlog User."
I can't wait until the neg button starts working again.
I think DeBord was the O's head man for the title year.
I didn't say Hoke was a coaching genius. I said that one might define coaching genius as one who can make a silk purse of a sow's ear.
I hope the neg button works again too; getting negged by you would be a badge of honor.
Doesn't this suggest that you think Bill Stewart is a coaching genius.
... I understand the passion, but we must keep perspective. David Brandon is better at making tough personel decisions than probably anybody on this board. He has more experience and more success in these endeavors.
As a citizen of this fine country of ours, you have the right to voice your displeasure with him and potential coaching candidates, but let us not lose sight of the fact that we all share the same goal. If hiring Hoke gets us closest to winning the Big 10, than we should hire Hoke. If Harbaugh is the man, and Harbaugh wants to be the man, we should hire Harbaugh. Brandon is doing everything in his power to make this program a success. While his tactics may not at this time seem rational to some, I doubt we have even the slightest awareness of the facts that have brought us to this point. Without those facts, the opinions we form are based on dodgy reporting and second and third hand sources. We should not be so moved by the ink that spills off the pen of those who purport to know more than the AD, when surely they do not.
David Brandon is clear in his goal, and he will make the decision that he has been entrusted to make. We, the fanbase, should support him and support the program, lest we lose everything "Michigan" about us.
since we can't comment to brian's front page post - anyone know what rivals is saying in their coaching hotboard post?
MMMMMM. I like me some dark horse.
I like me some dark horse.
That's because you've never had "pasty llama".
and you never will.
That dark horse is looking VERY good.
thanks. i've stored away a plus one for you to be executed at a later date.
I'd root for Trgovac, simply because I like saying "Trgovac". Over and over.
If I were DB, I'd demand that all recruits change their surnames to something like "Trgovac". Except the RBs, who would need to pick a name like "Shuttlesworth".
Patterson would be my next pick. Please please please!!!
This is the only objection to hiring Hoke.
Does he have enough goodwill around Michigan that he can withstand two poor years of football?
Whoever comes I think following facts are against them from the getgo:
- Next year will be brutal as there may be significant roster turnovers and recruit decommitments
- 2012 will be brutal as well with the schedule that we have
That means that whoever is the coach, the next two years may not be very pretty and that person must have enough goodwill to endure those two years.
I am not convinced that Hoke would survive after those two years with 7-5 records or worse. And if that is the case, we should never hire Hoke in the first place. The next coach must have enough cache to endure through those two years and I am not sure how many of the candidates that we are throwing around really can.
no, the objection to hoke is that there's no evidence that he's a michigan-caliber coach.
that the roster right now cannot produce a much improved season next year. RR was not fired because he was losing with bad players, he was fired because he was losing with good players and highly sought after recruits. If the current players, or a significant portion of the current roster, remains, what Michigan needs is a reorganization, a Chapter 13 so to speak. Speed - check; Capable quarterbacks - check; Young talent in the secondary - check; Talent on the defensive line - check. Linebacker and offensive line appear to be a problem, but neither Furman or really Robinson have seen the field yet and Kenny Demens showed signs. Get the offensive line to the buffet and perhaps Will Campbell can find his true calling.
I think RR was mismanaging this team to a "holy shit" degree, and I am not at all convinced that they cannot win right away if the current roster returns with anything resembling a kind-of decentish incoming class.
I don't agree with your analysis of RR but I do agree that he has assembled a talented team. If we get a coach that runs a simlar variation of the spread I don't think there is any reason we couldn't still be somewhere around ten wins next year.
If we go to a prostyle coach I think the next two seasons are going to be long ones.
threads started today?
I had the chance to watch SDSU play twice this year and I was impressed with their play. It seems like everyone who has actually paid close attention to their program lately is very high on Hoke. I don't think he'll end up getting the job because he's not a sexy enough name, but we may end up regretting that. We're going to have our hands full against his team next season.
I also believe that Hoke truly wants this job. If neither Harbaugh or Miles want it then they shouldn't get it.
And for those saying he is lacking in resume, what exactly was Bo's or Lloyds amazing resumes?
Everyone who actually follows their program, as jamiemac pointed out above, realizes that Chuck Long inherited a thankless rebuilding job and got canned after only three years, leaving behind a fantastic base for Brady Hoke. The natural maturation process of the guys he had gave him Ryan Lindley and two senior WR's who just had thousand yard seasons in addition to a defense and offensive line full of guys recruited by Long.
Acting like Hoke did something special doesn't reflect the totality of the situation at all.
You have to give Hoke credit for finding Hillman. Kid is sick and a true freshman.
I think Hoke is bred and raised for the B1G Conference.
Not sure I agree that Brandon knows what he's doing. He's obviously a bright guy, but the corporate world is a different world from the sports/entertainment world, and the norms and expectations encountered are different.
Brandon did a nice job with the NCAA thing; well, that was to be expected, it's more like corporate damage control. Find the best lawyer, take a reasonable approach, etc.
This is a project with very different realities swirling. Brandon's a rookie in this world. I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's doing, but it is certainly possible that he's in for a rude awakening. Watching him yesterday, compared to a savvy guy like Don Canham, he looked like a boy scout who was out of his depth.
I love it when rumor becomes fact in fantasy. The media at large are so desperate to be in the know and in control of a story that they eat up whatever any source tells them, even if that source is a douchebag like Drew Sharp (who thinks Michigan is a regional program...). What I'm getting at is that Dave Brandon is playing it close to the suit (not vest for obvious reasons) and I'll believe Brady Hoke is coach when I see him walk through that door. Until then, I hope it's someone with a decent resume at worst.
For all the hoke hatters. What happens on september 24th when he brings his team to the big house and kicks the crap out of us?