Less expensive. No one cares where you got your G degree, just that you have one. I went to a top G school, my coworker went to Walden and though I'm way smarter :) she makes the same. Kind of irks me but whatever.
Less expensive. No one cares where you got your G degree, just that you have one. I went to a top G school, my coworker went to Walden and though I'm way smarter :) she makes the same. Kind of irks me but whatever.
I disagree. It definitely matters, depending on what your program/major is. An engineering degree from Michigan is not the same as an engineering degree from Western Michigan -- there are tons of employers that grovel to get into the Michigan career fair that won't even open an invitation from Western.
Temple is not Michigan. If you aren't going to a top tier school in your field, every other program is more or less the same. I would also think long and hard about paying top dollar to attend a school in a neighborhood about as safe as the worst part of detroit.
Ever consider that I am from a place that you would call "unsafe"? Therefore, Temple being in such an atmosphere wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
"... a neighborhood about as safe as the worst part of detroit ..."
The _worst_ part? I highly doubt that. Temple is not in a nice neighborhood, but have you browsed around the east side of Detroit lately?
I have found it doesn't matter beyond the first job you get, after that no one cares where your degree came from, it is simply what did you do at your last job. I have done lots of interviews for positions over the years (engineering) and I could care less about which school you got a degree. I want to see how/what you did at your first job.
I am involved in hiring where I work and know many people in other fields that do the same. What we all look for when we hire is that the person has a degree in a relevant field, not where that degree is from.
If I had an applicant that took a G degree from UM and graduated with the same degree as a person from another (less prestigous) school and the one from the lesser school performed better from a grades perspective than the person from UM who do you think I would hire? If ALL things are equal (which they usually aren't) where the degree came from might play a role.
Think of it like a tie-breaker in sports...Two teams finish tied with points so how do we break the tie. There is a set process that employers undertake when that happens. They pretty much know that the people getting to the interview have equal degrees, so what's next? For us the grades the applicant achieved during their degree plays a big role, the interview scores very high, references play a role...only way down the list does where an person actually got their degree come into play.
Listen, I get it, we all love UM. However, the idea that if you get a degree from UM or any other great school that it will magically get you jobs that you otherwise would have no business getting is absurd and I say that knowing what people look for when they hire. If you can get your degree for less money while working hard and performing better than others how got their degree from a "better" school I will tell you that you won't be held back because of where you got your degree. If you don't perform as well while attaining your degree...well that's a different story.
My opinion is take the less expensive route so you won't be paying back your loans for the next half century and work your ass off so your grades during your degree will be better than those from other schools and you'll be laughing when it is all said and done..
Not sure what role you're hiring for, but I'm not sure this is true across the board. Students at less prestigious schools won't even get a look from many consulting firms or high finance roles.
This is probably true in some fields, but don't think you can make this wide a generalization. School definitely matters early in one's career, in my experience.
Agree with the less expensive. If you make the same and have less money in loan payments-- you make more.
IMHO your performance and work ethic will weigh heavier to an employer than where your degreee came from.
Wow, grayed out and negged on a topic that I actually know a thing or two about. Um...back to work.
The first rule about MGoModerating: You do not talk about MGoModerating.
Is your field one in which a Temple degree is going to make you significantly more employable, so to speak, than a degree from the other school? It seems to matter more in some professions than in others.
Exactly the question I was going to ask. If you're talking a "technical" profession like medicine, law, engineering (?), etc., a more prestigious degree may mean the difference of thousands of dollars. You have to decide whether the increase in salary is enough to justify the increased borrowing. On the other hand, if a degree from the "lesser" school will still put you in the same boat as a graduate from Temple, by all means choose the cheaper route! School loans are a b-tch to pay off and they all but require you to take a job that might not be your favorite but that pays more to allow you to service the debt for the next 30 years . . .
You should try to look into Temple's record of placing their graduates in your field and compare it to the other school's. Statistically there is a strong correlation between people's salaries coming out of school and their salaries a decade or two later, so if Temple grads start out making on average (say) $5k a year more than Nameless U. grads, you would probably recoup the extra cost before too long.
Go wherever your heart takes you.
Thanks Mark Hollis!
A young Marlon Brando?
I'd suggest you give more detail.
If your anticipated degree doesn't have the kind of salary with which you can pay off your debt, I would be very reluctant to go for the better education. On the other hand, in some programs, a single professor who is strong makes a huge difference. Even at Michigan, a select few professors in my field made a huge difference. Also, as mentioned by other posts above, some programs greatly increase your employability.
If you are in a field where you will likely be employed regardless of where you received your degree, and where your school choice won't greatly affect your salary, and where you will learn a lot of the same information, albeit at a lesser school, well, it would be hard for me to justify spending money you don't have and incurring loans you can't pay.
Do you want to work in PA after graduation? A Temple degree may give you more mobility, depending on the field you're in. A computer science graduate of Michigan may make the same amout of money as a computer science graduate of MSU if they both stay in Michigan, but the Michigan grad would have a much easier time landing a job in California than the MSU grad.
- which field you are studying
- what degree you hope to get
- what you hope to do after you're done
Really depends on what your salary will be when you graduate. If your salary will be fairly high you should go to the better school.
It depends on what the program is for and what you want to do in your career.
If, for instance, it is an education program just to certify you to teach, it doesn't make a huge difference.
If you are planning future grad work, or for other fields, prestige can make a huge difference.
If it's engineering, the bigger/better your program is for the particular field the better. Also for engg programs it is possible to fund it by getting an RA/TA, and usually there are more opportunities for those at the larger schools with more research. Also, opens way more doors, and the student quality is better.
So many variables: Do you plan on working locally? Then the big school won't matter as much because if employers still know the local smaller school, hell maybe even they went there, they won't care where the degree came from and may prefer the smaller school degree?
What's your major? Are you going into a field that has lots of competition or do you have connections you'll have to use and your degree will matter less anyway?
Graduate high from the smaller one vs. graduating middle of the pack from the smaller one?
This definitely plays a role in the decision, or at least, it did in mine.
When I got into Eastern Michigan's MBA program, I already had the fortune of working for one of the region's larger employers, and in Southeast Michigan anyway, Eastern Michigan has a pretty good reputation as MBA programs go, but of course, it is not nearly up there in national circles like Michigan. Had I planned on going elsewhere in the country, I probably would not have gone to Eastern admittedly, but to be successful where I am at, this will more than suffice.
If you're going to stay local, there are probably more options that will lead to similar success in the long term (since more than likely, you'll find connections to the less prominent school in a given field), but if you plan on moving elsewhere, a school with an appropriately-sized reputation in your field of choice would definitely be the better bet. Mobility is definitely a consideration.
Agree. Reputation is everything. This is what the decision should be based on IMO, because it's what's going to help determine whether or not it's worth it to pay the extra money. Is the "smaller state school" well-thought-of in the Philly area? Is that where you want to get a job? If yes and yes, I see no point at all in paying the extra money. I would echo those who say if you want to get a job anywhere in the country, a national name is important, but if you just want a job locally, a local name is fine. This is the thinking that led me to UDM for my MBA, and so far, job-wise and everything else, it's worked out exactly like I wanted.
I would recommend getting a job now, pay off some, if not all of the debt, and then figure out if you still want to pursue a graduate degree. Either that, or go for a PhD in a funded program (in other words find a way to go to school for free/get paid). Unless you're going to med school or engineering or something that will allow you to definitely pay off the loans, I'd recommend against it. Also, if going to school part time and working part time is an option look into that.
You really don't want to finish a graduate degree and have no realistic way to pay off your loans.
I worked full time throughout my masters and now my doctorate. I've paid all of out of pocket. Obviously, this isn't an option for everyone. It is a lot to manage, but was totally worth it.
I was originally considering a masters, but realized that I could have my tuition covered and get a stipend for going the PhD route (basically being paid for research). It took longer, and was very challanging, but I agree it was worth it to not have the cost attached. I would recommend the OP look into options along this line.
I've already said something similar, but I feel that I should add this. Finding a job for yourself related to your field has several advantages. Being able to pay for some or part of your tuition up front is obviously great. More importantly, when you finish you will not only have another degree, but also some relevant experience. It took me extra time to finish, but I also "paid my dues" in the workforce while finishing school. I also made connections in the field and through my grad program. The fact that they ended up overlapping was huge. Hope this helps.
It's a MS in Kinesiology. With a certificate in Athletic Training. I'd like to stay in Philadelphia, after I graduate since it is in my comfort zone. But it isn't necessary. It is a very competitive field. It is a good tough decision to make.
Are you looking to practice Athletic Training or is there a destination after that degree? Certainly in the competitive fields in health care the degree that is higher profile wins.
School of Health Professions has a strong reputation.
from Temple vs. TOS (the other school)? By better, I don't necessairly mean more money, but a better starting path for your career? Also, how is the alumni network for your program in each school? Do the premier employers in Philly like one school vs. the other? What about the premier employers around the metro area?
I would suggest that Temple is likely a better fit, given the scale of the school and their athletic department. You just have to figure out how much more you will make in your first 3-7 years and see if it's worth it. After that, it'll likely be based on your experience vs. grad school.
I'm sure you know a lot more about how competitive the field is than I do, but FWIW, I've heard that the demand for athletic trainers is expected to steadily grow over the years, much like the majority of health care jobs. A big reason for this is because PTs and orthopedic surgeons are starting to incorporate ATs into their practices. Orthopedists, for instance, will hire ATs to do things like the initial patient interviews and physical exams in order to free up more of their time.
So if the exact type of athletic training job you want to do is a highly competitive one (such as working for a college or pro sports team) and Temple gives you a better shot at it, I'd probably go to Temple. But if you are interested in a type of AT job with higher demand, you might want to consider the cheaper school.
You can't bill for a trainer obtaining your history or physical. Only the billing physician can obtain these to qualify for valid reimbursement under Medicare guidelines.
Trainers can be an extender for coverage at high school, middle school athletic events...but of limited clinical utility (AT's can't bill independently unlike physician assistants or nurse practictioners) in an office setting.
Physician, in an orthopaedic group. We're hiring physical therapists like crazy, two of our orthos do high school game coverage, but we're not hiring trainers.
Well I certainly take your word for it as I am not a physician. Just for the sake of it though I did a quick google search and found an interesting read: http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/oct08/managing4.asp.
Apply to grad school as an aid in a school that offers the program.
I was at Central Michigan and the TI were all in the masters program. They taught and received their education for free. Check programs out.
You don't need more debt because you are not in a high income tier career field. Do anything you can to work at a college and get the classes for free.
Most academic programs will fund you and therefore cost nothing, so I'm guessing you're talking about a professional degree, in which case you've got a dilemma. JDs and MBAs are dime a dozen, so your employment opportunities will be vastly greater with a prestigious degree, but you need to balance that against expected debt/earnings ratio. More information would be helpful.
Keep in mind living costs as well. Center city can get pricey in terms of rent, parking, etc.
at least not the expensive part.
True, but do you really wanna live in that area? I know plenty of people who have had their cars broken into, multiple times, around that campus.
It depends as outlined by SRK.
This recommends that you go back to Temple and tell them of your dilemma. Ask them about the possibility of partial scholarship money.
It is good to have a choice.
Best of luck.
I actually attend Temple University and I would agree with the sentiments of the majority of the blogosphere. Obviously, it depends on the nature of your program as to attending at TU or a smaller state school.
It is a major issue about credibility of degree at the graduate level. If you are intending to do further grad work, work internationally or seek faculty work (for example) then the Temple degree is your better option (given your likely enhanced earning position). Some schools at Temple are going to offer you a much better return than a smaller local state school (i.e., Fox School of Business, Health Professions)
If these factors don't speak to you then a different school is probably more ideal. I can tell you that TU is certainly not inexpensive $1004 per hour right now but not as bad as some...
Loans suck. They do. While I was racking them up (for the few years of grad school when I had no funding) the total was pretty abstract to me. It wasn't real. And honestly, my loan total wasn't that high.
But then my family went through some job changes and now that payment every month is a lifestyle-dampener. Unless you're pretty certain that the Temple cachet will make an impact on your career, why add to your loan burden?
It shows how much respect and intelligence there is on this board. I just recently turned down a school due to not receiving funding, even though it probably means needing to apply again next year. I know what you're going through and wish you luck.
I couldn't agree with you more. As far as I know, there aren't many other blogs out there in which the general populace of contributors are as well educated and capable of offering quality input on almost any topic.
There's a growing higher-education bubble that, in the very near future, will be as destructive to individuals and to the larger economy as the recent housing bubble was. Too many young people still have the mentality that grad school is a safe harbor, when in reality it's often just the opposite. Can't figure out what to do with your life? Shoot, I'll go to law school! I know a lot of MA/MS/JDs making $35K a year with $100,000 in loans. You know how long it takes to pay that off in that scenario? Institutions of higher ed know that they're selling a bill of goods with a lot of graduate programs right now, but they have no choice if they want to stay afloat. The whole system is in for a shock, though, soon.
I think about what I'd advise a 16 year old to do with his/her life, and my advice would be...become a really great basketball player.
Personally I'd go with left-handed knuckleball pitcher. But really great basketball player is a good career track too now with all of the opportunities abroad.
I'd go field goal kicker. Become really good at a very specialized position, and as a bonus you think about brunnettes all day.
make sure that your degree is career oriented. I have a a few friends that spent that extra money getting an masters liberate arts degree. They are unemployed but have even more dept. But if you think its something that will advance your career and make you more marketable, go to Temple. Name and reputation means something whether or not people want to admit it.
I'm not sure about kinesiology, but for many fields (my perspective is from engineering) you shouldn't just pick the school, you should pick the specific advisor you want to work for. Grad work focuses on one very small aspect of a field; one specific topic. You need to work for someone doing something you are interested in. Also, where they are in their own career is a big deal too. There's often a trade off between new profs that don't have much funding, but are very driven to get more (and can tend to micromanage) and established profs that have plenty of funding, but might require you to be more self-sufficient.
Also, your advisor's connections will likely be your best leads when it's time to look for a job when you're done.
If Temple isn't a first rate ticket to where you want to go then take the less expensive route..Either way,latch onto a professor(s) and get into projects/internships that will demonstrate your ethic and abilities to future employers. When I interview someone, a good degree is an advantage, but only a very good one. Amongst the next tier I want a list of names to call and when I talk to them I want to hear about how much the candidate knows and how hard he works. Good luck!
I'm currently getting my Doctorate in Physical Therapy and feel that you should go to the cheaper school. I had options from the top PT schools in the country and chose to go to a slightly lower ranked school where I could get tuition paid for via a graduate assistantship. And I couldn't be happier and more successful. Ultimately the education you get is what you make of it. As long as the other option is average or above you will have all the tools you need - more important is your individual effort and getting great clinical rotations (pretty sure you will have some?).
I am sure the school that you are attending is tremendous for the DPT (not being sarcastic) and that it meets your needs. Ultimately it seems that the capacity to work with a more elite faculty and to be able to market that are not indicated in your profession/role. Fair enough. Given the path the OP is talking about it would be relevant to have the opportunity to work with D1 Big East/A10 athletes (not saying that opportunities wouldn't be available elsewhere) at a resume level (given he's going to have to sell his experience in a competitive milieu).
There will always exist the debate of "name school" versus "cheaper, less well known secondary alternative". The "name school" alumni like myself go with the reputation, excellence, quality of faculty/resources/connnections line while the "cheaper less well known secondary alternative" scholars go with the "it's what you make of it" argument. I agree it's what you make of it and your clinical efforts are a key determinant. That said, what if "it's what you make of it occurred at a better rated school, with better facilities, faculty and learning opportunities?"
Isn't this why athletes choose Michigan over, say, Akron?
I certainly do agree that "name" does play a role in one's success (and I certainly would refute that working with an elite faculty is not indicated in my profession - it definitely is). But I think one thing to keep in mind is who finds the school elite and does it matter if they do? I have met and worked with numerous upper-echelon faculty from many other schools with my research and can tell you that plenty of them have a reputation that is not backed up by talent. The OP needs to really probe into what others within the profession think of the various programs because being buried in debt going to an overrated school (and they do exist) is not worth it. One more point to add - having less debt allows one to take more career risks such as taking a lower paying job upon graduation that has obvious room for exponential career growth (very prevalent in the OP's career) versus taking a higher paying job with less options for skill and knowledge enhancement in order to pay off enormous debts. Never an easy decision!
Because I am old (52,) the cost of a Michigan education was cheap. Tuition, room, board, books, and expenses for me at Michigan was less than $4,000 a year, BEFORE scholarships, grants, work study, etc. Student loans, when I was finished, had an interest rate well under 3%. For me, it was stupid to consider anything but a Michigan education.
My 19 year old daughter, on the other hand, is in a vastly different world. According to UofM's website (http://www.finaid.umich.edu/TopNav/AboutUMFinancialAid/CostofAttendance.aspx) the cost for tuition, books, room & board, and misc. expenses for her is now more than $50,000 a year. As much as I would have loved for her to go to Michigan, we sadly concluded that it just wasn't worth it. She is bright enough to get in, but is not brilliant enough to win or compete for a full ride scholarship. The grants and aid I received are no longer available. The summer job I had at Ford Motor Company in Dearborn allowed me to make and save enough to pay for close to a full year's education. It is impossible in 2012 for a student to find a summer job paying anything like that percentage of college costs.
Currently, I don't care how much more scintillating the discourse and discussion, how great the physical facilities, how beautiful the campus, how proficient the professors, it just isn't justifiable to go to school and end up with debt more than twice my current mortgage. I am neither resentful nor bitter, but an education at Michigan is now reserved for the wealthy, the privileged, the truly brilliant, the children of those with incomes well into six figures. We don't qualify, which is what it is.
I take issue with your last paragraph because you leave out low-income families in Michigan. The U works very hard to keep a U-M education within reach of those families.
I know that's little help to those many families caught in that middle-income squeeze, but it's not fair to say that only the rich can manage U-M.
Fair enough. I'll grant your point. If you fall within the right demographic stratum (socioeconomically, racially, and perhaps also in terms of the degree program desired,) you are correct, there is always going to be room for you, and scholarship support will be provided.
Unfortunately, I fall in the white, middle class, out of state demographic. I don't lament this, because I undoubtedly have had many advantages in life. I support the University in seeking to gain diversity and to support those who are disadvantaged.
Don't go to grad school and rack up more debt, instead do the only smart thing you can do at this point: Sell drugs.
Think about it, you don't have to pay taxes, neighborhood teenagers will respect you. Plus you have an excuse to wear a big gold chain. You can't lose
Could we please stop these personal advice threads?
I would understand during the season, but this is the major offseason. Just skip them if you don't like them.
Here's a link to a bunch of data on the current student debt bubble in the US:
Since you've already expressed some concern with your existing debt from undergrad, I would highly recommend that you scrutinise the potential debt load of grad school very carefully. Some loans might be necessary, but keep it to a minimum.
Oh, and this advice was carved in stone for a reason:
(Image of the Babson rock via forexstreet.net)
Are you the kind of person who will do whatever it takes to get to your desired goal? If not, go to the name school (assuming Temple will open doors). The prestige will buy you access you won't get from other places. If you're truly ambitious, save the money and trust that you won't quit until you get to where you want.
I'm in a field with tons of MBAs. The majority are from top 10 schools, but I come across a number guys who don't have an MBA and went to random midwest directional school and are incredibly successful. They opened doors for themselves through hard work and determination. The rest of us worked hard, but at some level, the name on our diploma helped grease the skids.
I think it comes down to where you see yourself working and in what capacity. If you are getting an advanced degree because you plan on working in the Philly area or Temple has a strong program in that field, then go there. Also, if you are looking to continue on to a Ph.D. program, then consider how lmany graduates from either program matriculate to a degree program. But if you are going to graduate school to pad your resume but you don't see it as an essential stepping stone, then maybe less money would make more sense.
In my situation, I am working full-time and getting an MS at night, and I picked the higher-ranked school in part because the program was more flexible but also because the extra cost seemed like a good investment to increase my marketability in my field. But I could have gone to the other school and I don't think it would have hurt my employment potential much. But others in my program are looking to Ph.D. programs, and so the institution (and the grades) matter more.
For some occupations, what school you attended determines whether or not you get the job (primarily finance).
But yes, once you get the job, your evaluations are based on performance.
As others have suggested, see what assistantships are available. These often include tuition remission. Not sure if they are available at all in your field, but it's worth investigating.
All I know is that I'm very excited about coming back to Michigan for my PhD this fall.
Enough students get driven bad into student debt as is, no need to join the crowd
The school you go to will help you with your first job -- which in turn could set you up on the right track for your career. A better school and you have a higher chance of a better first job.
That said, beyond your first job, everything else is really up to you and I have seen plenty of smart, highly motivated people make it that went to lower-ranked schools.
My take: the more expensive school is only justified in one of two cases. One: there is a real, tangible expectation that the extra cost would be paid back through a higher salary over 5-7 years. Two: it enables you to compete for jobs that the less-expensive school can't *and* that job is important to your overall life happiness.
I suspect that neither of these are super likely. According to the NRC data (link here: http://graduate-school.phds.org/rankings/kinesiology), sorting based on reputation, student outcomes, and student services, Temple is low on the list of ranked programs. It's likely that the other school you are considering is unranked on this list, but even so---Temple won't be an order-of-magnitude better in employers' eyes in the way that, say, one of the top 4-5 programs might.
Now, granted: the NRC rankings are for Ph.D. programs, not MS programs. And, YMMV. But, my gut says save the money, because Temple doesn't have enough juice.
Just say "NO" to grad school