OT: Games of Thrones 6/2/13
"Rains of Castamere." But its not a huge deal.
If someone posts a spoiler before it happens on the show I will neg your forever and ever and ever.
Walder Frey and Craster would get along well.
The seeds are strong with them. At least the seeds with an X chromosome.
Frey doesn't take his daughters for wives, though.
With all those daughters I mean.
I think so...I can't wait to see non-reader reactions.
Hah yes yes it is. Just brutal, absolutley brutal.
Note to self:
Don't piss off Arya.
Hodor doesn't like the storm :(
Hockeybear's live tweets for GoT are tonights top entertainment.
Oh, Samwell, you know how to charm a lady with your stories.
— HOCKEYBEAR (@AKHockeyBear) June 3, 2013
If she thinks reading is magic.
I just want my MGoPoints back.
I have no idea if i'm happy or mad at Jon right now.
My wife hasn't read the books and she was disgusted that Jon would run off without Ygritte. That is really the onnly problem with putting a book on screen is the inability to see what a character is actually going through in their minds.
My wife, having only seen the show, got the impression that they were in love, and how could a man who loved a woman run off without her. Having read the book though, you see that the entire time he and Ygritte were together he was intensely conflicted about it, being a man who took an oath never to take a wife or have any children.
Jon Snow really just saw that as the way out that he had been looing for the entire time he was with the wildlings. Not that he didn't love the girl, because it seemed he did. But Jon Snow was more like his father than any of the other Starks and his sense of honor was what ruled him.
Frey's chuckle at Robb was awesome there.
Edit: Frey can go die in wildfire.
Someone tell Filch there are students in the corridor and out of bed. Headmaster McConnagol is not going to happy.
This is by far the most Rickon dialogue in the show.
so much for showing Little Rob Stark how to ride a horse...
In the book Rob's wife didn't attend the wedding because Catelyn councilled Rob that to bring her would be throwing his betrayal in the Face of Frey, so he left her back at camp where she still lives on if memory serves...I am almost done the fifth book and so much has mappened since this wedding that it is hard to keep everything straight. But I do remember at least that Rob's wife didn't attend the wedding.
Now I remember there is a bigger scum ball than Joffrey. His name is Walder Frey. Killing guests of your home is one of the worst crimes you can commit.
Also Bolton can go fuck himself as well.
I've read the books but still logged in to see everyone who hasn't read ahead freak out. Red Wedding still insane.
If you just want to shock people in a TV series watch fear factor. Spend that much time building characters to watch it all burn? Why?
EVERYONE is fair game. And I like it. The character landscape is so rich here, it needs a little thinning out every now and then. Main characters, side characters..so be it.
Main characters who you identify with need left alone. That is how a fan base is created no? What is to leave me vested now? The hope that i couldn't possibly stop after investing all this time? Im all done with this show. I was a huge fan. The plots just feel cheap. There is literally zero payoff. Its "different" for the sake of being "different". I can only stand watching people wander the country side so long.
There are SO MANY OTHER "main characters" left, though. Surely, you can "identify" with someone else, no?
I like Martin's killing off of main characters now and then because it keeps the reader (and the viewer) on his or her toes. No one is safe here.
In any event, Martin himself said that the "Red Wedding" was the most difficult thing he ever had to write. He kept putting it off because it upset him so much, but he felt that it was absolutely essential to set up what happens next. In other words, he wouldn't have done it had he not felt that he HAD to do it.
Plus, in Robb's case, something that doesn't translate over to the show is that he has no POV chapters and therefore isn't truly a primary character. Hard to show that on TV, except by cutting out all the scenes for which Catelyn isn't present (such as Robb's little dialogue with Jaime while Jaime is a prisoner, which never happens in the books.)
I had forgotten that Robb was never an actual POV character in the books...
Books v TV is the issue here. Books take a while, you read, reread, wait for a while for the next and it all continues. TV is a whole different ball game. No i don't feel more intelligent for watching something different. In fact, i feel cheated. If its all about the dragons, cool. Not what tripped my trigger. This whole "anti hero" theme is great for some. Not for me.
...to completely divulge from the source material here, and keep these characters alive, would you?
First of all...like I said, it sets stuff up for down the road. Secondly, HBO would have quite a few cancelled subscriptions if they altered the events of the Red Wedding that significantly.
This TV series isn't going to be done next year. Or the year after that. Or the year after that. You get my point.
Just not my kind of style or themes. Somebody has to win, somewhere. And win something major. I get he tried to be as realistic to life in the era (whatever that maybe) as possible. But again, its a fantasy, its ok for the good guys too win as well.
The main theme of the story is that you reap what you sow.
The Lannisters have just sowed some juicy seeds.
Keep watching... revenge is around the corner.
I haven't read the books, so I'm not sure how it goes. However, from what I've seen so far, the series isn't about the good guys winning or losing. There aren't really any good guys and bad guys in the shows. It's not black and white, just various hues of grey. There are some people and families who are better than others, but even the Lannisters have Tyrion. But no matter what only one group can win. So it's either the Starks, the Lannisters, Daenerys or Stannis the mannis Baratheon. They can't all win. And they can't all survive.
If you think that life, let alone anything that George R.R. Martin writes, is about good versus evil, then you should just stop right now.
A Song of Ice and Fire (aka Game of Thrones) is so far beyond your petty notions of good versus evil.
Like life, there are no "good guys" and there are no "bad guys" there only "is," and that "is," my friend, is a bundle of motivations, justifications, passions, and a whole lot of random chance.
If Robb Stark were such a good guy he would not have broken his solemn vow to an ally in the midst of battle.
I don't think that makes Robb a bad person. It makes him a tragic hero in the classical Greek sense. Which is basically the story of the Stark family. In classic Greek tragedies, the hero has his tragic flaw that brings about his downfall, and often this tragic flaw is an overabundance of a good trait. Ned's was his honor and Catelyn's was her motherly protectiveness.
It's not like Robb went "ha ha fuck you Walder Frey, now that I got what I want from you, you can take your deal and stick it."
It makes him tragic, but that has nothing to say of whether he was good or not.
He made a vow to Walder Frey and he broke that vow. He chose love over honor and duty. It makes him human, but it also makes him a scum bag in that one instance.
Had he thought of his family, his army, his countrymen and his mission, first and foremost, then none of this would have happened. Instead, he thought with his heart, but more likely (as Lord Walder pointed out) his cock, instead of his head. Had he thought with his head then none of this would have happened.
Edit: Ned certainly was a tragic hero as well, and we could argue as to what was his downfall. His undying sense of loyalty and honor definitely played a part, but he had several opportunities to save himself, and didn't. Those opportunities had nothing to do with honor or loyalty. He could have taken his family and left the city with Renly. He also didn't need to tell Cersei he knew of her affair with Jamie.
Someone with an undying devotion and an absolute strict adherence to honor and what is right (Stannis Baratheon) would have given a traitor such as herself no such warning before cutting her head off, but Ned did, and that was one of the many things that lead his his downfall. To simply say it was the fact that he was an extremely honorable man, is simplistic.
Double Edit: Also, don't forget that Ned betrayed his sense of honor in the end by lying to the entire kingdom (and for purely selfish reason too).
Well, you missed the reason Ned blabbed to Cersei then. I haven't followed the show especially closely, so maybe they didn't show it. It's possible, because the clue is that Robert is willing to assassinate Daenerys, who in the book is 13 at the time. Ned is horrified that Robert would order the murder of a child. So after that incident he knows what will happen when Robert learns his children aren't his. He'll have the heads of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella in an instant. Ned doesn't want that to happen, so he tells Cersei to take them and run.
Which makes his lie about treason in front of the kingdom perfectly consistent. He spilled the beans to Cersei to save the lives of her children, and he lied to save the lives of his own. (Not so he could live and take the black. Because the Lannisters would've killed Sansa otherwise, or at least, so he was led to believe.) In all three instances he put the life of a child above his own duty to the kingdom and the kingdom's laws. Sometimes you have to make a choice between two of your moral imperatives. He made the consistent choice each time. I don't see where he betrayed himself.
vow to Frey did not make Robb a "good person" or a "bad person," it simply defined him as a person unfit to rule. Robb's death was all but a given. There was no other way it could have ended. In the words of Ned Stark, Robb "grew up with soldiers," he learned how to die a long time ago.
However, the image that I will not able to shake for a long time is Catelyn, staring blankly and lifeless after killing Frey's wife,(basically a child), the horrific last act of a very noble person. Michelle Fairly should be at the Emmy's this year at the very least, if she does not win best supporting actress in a landslide. It may be a long time before you see something that organically tragic again on screen.
I would disagree, personally, that breaking the vow made him unfit to rule. Ned broke a vow in a similar way and was still portrayed as one of the more truly upright and just rulers in the realm. And Robb was always portrayed throughout the books as a person who was very capable beyond his years, well-prepared for his responsibilities, and easy for people to want to follow. His father's son in so many ways. The reason it's such a tragedy is because he was so fit for his crown.
He is fit for what we wish the crown would or could be, perhaps what Danaerys seeks to bring to it, but he did not have the chops to take the throne from the Lannisters. He was unable to make it his singular purpose, and he was never able to clarify exactly what he wanted and why. He wanted to unseat Joffrey Lannister, but only for revenge, not to bring honor to the throne, not to even rule himself, he said it himself. There actually in lies the problem. He never sought power for its own sake, ruling never became an intrinsic goal. If it was he would have kept his vow to Frey.
That sounds fair. It sounds like what you're saying is "not Machiavellian enough" which is clearly true of most of the Starks. He could rule very well if he could get there, but he doesn't have what it takes to play the game to win.
the good guys are losing. Dany is conquering entire cities with winks, white walkers can be killed, and Jon Snow is free, at least for the moments. Those are the broad strokes. Robb Stark was just a detail, really. It is tragic that he met that fate, but the bigger fish have not begun to fry.
You identified with Robb Stark?
But in fairness, the TV character was much more identifiable than the book's was, although I still was not sorry to see him go. This episode really didn't disappoint with the Red Wedding. I'm impressed.
Sure. He was the most honorable one left. That archetype is pretty normal and what i enjoy. Should he win it all? Im fine with no. But to just get rid of everyone, why bother watching? To feed some sadistic need to watch what you enjoy die? Im all set.
There are honorable characters or characters who redeem themselves left on this show. I would say keep watching, but it seems like you already made up your mind.
He was so honorable he broke the one vow that would not only doom him but his people, his legacy, his entire army, along with his family? OK.
There is much left to go.
LOL Robb more honorable than Daenerys, or Bran, or Jon, or Davos? Ok......
TBH you can't become attached to any character in the series. We do know that in the end someone from the Targaryen line has to survive and someone from the Stark line has to survive... it's the song of ice(stark) and fire(targaryen). Whether that someone is an individual descending from both lines or two separate characters no one really knows... there's candidates for both theories.
As a counter-point, I've heard theories that suggest that the song of Ice and Fire refers to The White Walkers/The Others and the dragons. If that's the case, there isn't anyone who needs to survive.
There is a lot left to be revealed.
This is going to sound bitter but mindset like yours is, in my opinion, why there is so much crap and entertainment and it is all so alike. Yeah its nice to have stories where the good guys win despite everything realistic pointing against it, but sometimes it doesn't just all end up ok too and because of reactions like this those storylines are not successful and don't get made. You have to remember this season is only half a book, there is much more time for things to be balanced out and there are still plenty of interesting characters left. You don't care what happens Arya? What plays out north of the wall? Who winds up on the throne? Let alone the fact that tyrion is an awesome character and you still have dany and the dragons. What about the three leeches? one has already come through and there are still two names left. Three main characters have died in three seasons now, Ned, Catelyn, and Robb, its not even that many when you think about it. In short stop wanting everything to work out happily so that can feel better at the expense of a better story.
Well, that's one way to write. But if the hero always survives, you know that no matter what hardships he goes through, he's never really in peril, because he's going to triumph.
Ned Stark would have been that hero - he was honorable, a man of his word. But things aren't black and white in Martin's world, he's not writing a typical heroic fantasy, and when Ned got his head chopped off, you knew it.
Yeah, after Ned died you know he's not going to take it easy on anyone. If someone is mad about this they haven't been paying close enough attention
"haven't been paying close enough attention"
quote of quote sums it up rather nicely
There's a bunch of other great characters, like tywin, ygritte and Jon snow, you can like. You stuck with the show after Ned, why let this put you off?
You know nothing, Jon Snow.
"The plots just feel cheap. There is literally zero payoff."
And that is where you lost me forever.
This is an extremely childish mentality. GoT isn't meant to be a feel good fantasy where the good guys win and the bad guys lose. From the get go GRRM has made it clear that no character is safe and that there are very few truly good or truly evil characters. Everyone is some shade of grey, you know, like real people.
If you want feel-good fantasy with black and white characters, I'd suggest sticking to Harry Potter. Leave the adult themes and plots to the adults.
I will say this. Have there been other occassions where you watch a movie or TV show and say to yourself, "WTF??? Why would anyone do that???" Like when the Bond villain after Bond villain, instead of shooting Bond dead when they have the chance, they go on about this or that and set up some elaborate scheme to kill him only to see if him escape? That REALLY drives me nuts because that is a really cheap way to keep your "hero" alive. Well, GOT does not do that. If someone gets in a really difficult situation, they usually get killed. No ifs and or buts. You gotta give some props for that.
I 100% agree. It sucks and it's sad. But there's still a ton of great characters left in the show.
Totally disagree. I respect the boldness and balls it takes to just basically cut a major proportion of your main characters at any time. Real life is messy and an honest drama should be too. Good guys don't always win and I like it better that way
Good guys don't always win, but wtf they don't ever win in this series. It's just one big shitstorm. I swear i'm done with this series, I have lost all interest. There is no reward or payoff for being interested in any of the personal stories..the writer seems only interested in shock value.
And even Sean Bean finds a way to die in LOTR.
Because this series isn't fantasy.... Where did I say no one should die? I said there is no payoff and there is none. The Starks and their armies are gone. The children don't interest me, neither does Danerys. Of course the Lannisters will crush themselves from within because that is all that is left. But I don't care enough to stick around another season for it. GRR is a shock jock and honestly I think the man is sick in the head.
can you say there is no pay-off? Do you realize how good of an episode of television that was? Game of Thrones is operating at a higher level than any show has, and possible higher than any movie has in quite some time. The fact that it "shocked" does not make him a "shock-jock." You feel the way that you do because he constructed characters that good in the first place. You feel the way that you do because the show is that good. It actually makes you feel something.
Clearly you haven't bothered to read the books, or really pay attention to the show, killing characters isn't for shock value its to drive the story foreward, its not like this is the final season. If ned doesn't die robb never takes his armies south and you don't have any conflict or seasons 2 and 3. Now the north is leaderless and as they say, winter is coming, that could mean some major ramifications for the entire world depending on what is going on with the whitewalkers.
Your point will never get across to people who just want some quick pay off.
In reality that is rarely the case, GRRM was trying to keep it somewhat realistic (even though there be dragons).
OMG This episode was absolutely ridiculous, such a crazy episode. I can't believe what I just saw
I knew it was coming.
It shocked me when I read the books...I believe I actually threw the damn book across the room. Later, I realized what a brilliant move it was to set a whole new course of events into motion.
When I read that chapter in the book, my reaction was basically 'DAAAAAAAAAAMN...ok, now what? I have to see what happens next..."
Thirteen years ago(damn thats a long time) I Threw the book across the room and couldn't pick it up for a week, I was so angry.
Eight years ago my mom called me asking why my sister was crying. That scene had such a huge impact on me.
I had to reread it over and over again. I thought at first that I was reading it wrong, then I didn't believe what I was reading. It literally took 6 times for it to sink in.
If the season finale is 2 hrs long?
It MIGHT be an hour + 10 minutes, tops. Definitely not 2 hours, I wouldn't think.
Yeah...this show (and the season) goes by by way, way too quickly.
According to the listing on my dvr.
Not a fan of the TV series.
Unrelated - I rather just watch Spartacus
Chills when they started to play the Lannister song
This show is unreasonably good
Holy shit. I didn't know it was the Lannisters song. I'm going to have to watch it again.
Yeah that's why Cat made that face when they started playing it
That's the title of the song. (Even though I butchered it in the OP). So you figured it had to show up. Just not like that....
That was the song version was talking about to her new "sister" on the last show! Much more ominous now!
Not "version." Interesting auto-spellcheck discovery there.
I thought the song was called Rains of Castamere
As I mentioned in the post you responded to, I screwed up the title of the episode in the OP, as is pointed out in the first post. Don't know why I had "winds" on my mind, but whatever. I didn't change it because it would make the first post look off, and he was right.
Once the doors closed and the song started playing, I immediately knew they weren't getting out of there alive.
The whole wedding reception had an un-easy feeling. I wasn't expecting that but, I figured something was going down. This show is really good at making you nervous as the episodes build up the suspense.
Shocked anyway. But I'd imagine non-readers must have shit themselves.
Why did the frey's partner with the lanisters if the the frey's are still going to go after the thrown?
If you're asking whether the Freys (and Boltons) are still going to be at war with the Lannisters after the Red Wedding, I think that was pretty much summed up when Roose Bolton ended Robb.
Actually, I imagine Lord Frey will bend the knee and get to be Warden of the North, and the Tullys would be his bannermen.
You mean of the Riverlands. Freys and Tully's are in the Riverlands, Starks and Boltons are in the North.
Is there a Warden of the Riverlands? Well, for killing off Robb and his men, why couldn't he get to be Warden of the North, too? I had the impression House Frey is more important than House Bolton.
There is a major house for all of the regions of Westeros, the North being one of those regions and the Riverlands being another. The major house of the North is the Starks and their most prominent bannerman family is the Boltons. The major house in the Riverlands is the Tullys and their most prominent bannerman family is the Freys. The major families for those two regions will obviously undergo tremendous change after the Red Wedding. But the Freys would not be accepted as a house of the North.
Well the Riverlands were fighting for the King in the North. Why couldn't the Riverlands take precedence now? If Houses Frey and Bolton bend the knee and get told Frey is top House in the region, who are they to argue? (To King's Landing, it's all "north," anyway.)
I understand where you're coming from, but that's just not the way it works. The regions have remained unchanged since well before the Targaryens took over. Certain families are associated with certain regions; that's where they hold their power and collect their landed incomes. The crown wouldn't risk having their new prize from the wedding (the North and the Riverlands) get pissed again by combing the North and Riverlands. The only way families enter into another region is through marriage (e.g., Catherine Tully marrying Ned Stark, hence the Riverlands fighting for the North). So if it makes you feel better, the new Warden of the North, Roose Bolton, has a Frey for his wife (and a large one at that).
Apart from that, to respond to your other comment, House Frey is not more important than House Bolton. They hold an important pass between the Riverlands and the North but House Bolton is quite powerful in their own right. Roose Bolton had just as much to do with the Red Wedding as Walder Frey.
Tully's are warden of the Riverlands at the time of the event and Roose Bolton played such a big part in the Red Wedding (and saving Jaime) so you know he will want a huge reward for betraying Robb. The man who married the fattest Frey so he could get the most silver (that part was hilarious) will definitely want more power.
Bolton was in on it. Bolton will probably take the North and Frey the riverlands.
Come on man, it's in the damn title. Also, Lannister.
That was nuts. Absolutely nuts.
be any more crazy? History says yes, but not sure since the books (haven't started Storm of Swords yer)
The way the seasons have gone so far, I would doubt it. The 9th episode seems to be the crazy one (S1: Ned's beheading, S2: Blackwater, S3: Red Wedding). The 10th episodes so far have been more of a 'resolution' episode.
Based on the reactions here, the show didn't chicken out
I'm still sitting here in shock.
It took three seasons for something to finally happen in this show. And that something was good
The giant ass battle at the end of the second season wasn't enough for you?
I'm guessing he wanted more WIldfire.
They lopped off Ned Stark's head. That wasn't something? Or Denaerys turning three eggs into dragons? Yeah. It definitely took three seasons for something to happen.
I'm still too shocked. That was unbelievable, I can't goto sleep tonight. That was so intense and so sad. I literally yelled "NOOOOOOOOO" at the TV with my mouth agape for the last 15 mins of that episode
If Robb Stark had sen Harry Potter, he'd have known not to trust Filtch.
Guess that gets covered next week.....I get why the Lannisters would seek them out, with oppertunity and all....but Frey wants to marry off children to other houses and the Lannisters promised off 2 and only have 2 of Cersi's kids and one of them promised off already.......
Should be fun, but either way, this is leading to an epic war with the dragon queen, lannisters and the other dude now..........and of course the greyjoys are coming back into the mix
Never Forget 6/2/2013
The North remembers.
My wife is 3 months pregnant so that was rough. I need to read the books but please tell me payback is coming?
That was the most horrifying point of the whole series.
I don't even think the stabbing the stomach was in the books. I don't remember if Robb's wife was at the wedding or not. The TV show is kind of to the point where it is spoiling the books now though. Whenever they swap out a character (Robb's wife in the books was supposed to be a lesser lord's daughter) for a completely new character on TV and the one in the books is still alive after the fifth book you know that they won't play a significant role because GRR Martin let HBO replace the character. Kind of a reverse spoiler.
I don't watch the show, but did they kill off Robb's wife? That's actually a fairly large deviation, because in the books it was made to seem (in retrospect) that perhaps his wife (and her family) was working with the Lannisters all along.
They never really introduced her family in the show. She's a foreigner and so is her family. I'm guessing they changed that from the books.
Hmm, in the books she was from a minor family; in rereading, it sounds like they were in cahoots with the lannisters; Tywin says something about him not being worried about Robb producing an heir, and wife says something like "I drink a special postion every morning to make sure I'm fertile". It's speculated that her family worked with the Lannisters, probably without her knowledge.
Agreed, she turns out to be devastated at Rob's death whereas the family was in on it. Not surprised GRRM let this be a change as it felt like the story of Rob's wife's family ends pretty definitely in book four.
Robb's wife did not attend the wedding in the book, as he thought it would offend Walder Frey.
Anyone else notice that Brynden Tully disappeared for the massacre?
Yeah, I forgot if it mentions why in the book. I'm going to have to read the books again after I finish the fifth book.
In the books he escapes the massacre as it's occurring by diving into the river and swimming for a few miles. I think he's also the one to find Cat's body.
I don't want to give plotpoints away, but with respect to the books, you're wrong about everything.
The Blackfish doesn't go to the Red Wedding in the books. He stays at Riverrun. It's someone else that finds Cat's body.
I need to read the books but please tell me payback is coming?
The epilogue to Storm of Swords provides a fantastic reason to keep on going with the story. If HBO is smart that is how they will end the next episode as well.
My thoughts exactly. Also, if a certain character gets where they are going, it will add a little more color to season 4 beyond what was in ASOS along with the intrigue of a new storyline.
book 3 of the book series is going to be both seasons 3 and 4 of the show, so there are plenty of events from book 3 that will not be happening until next year. I'd be surprised if HBO ends season 3 with the events at the end of book 3. That's how they're going to end next year and blow everyones' minds then.
I don't see them being able to keep that a secret for non-readers for a whole year. I don't want to go into reasoning because that's too much of a hint towards a spoiler, but let's just say that there's 0-1 chapters' worth of storyline that needs to happen before the epilogue makes sense. I have a feeling they'll have that content early in the show, then finish with the epilogue.
Also, they won't have enough content from book 3 to make a full season. I'm about 90% sure that they are going to start some of the storylines of books 4/5 next season. If you think about it, most of the content that is left in book 3 is from two storylines so to get content for the other characters next season, they are going to have to start on books 4/5.
I can see your reasoning for that, but I can also see them delaying it too as one major character's abilities have not been really developed that much this season and they might need next season to set that up, otherwise explaining how things are found might be tricky.
man it is going to be hard to talk about this without spoilers, but hopefully you'll get where I'm going with this. to non-book readers i apologize if this spoils anything, i'm trying really hard to be as vague as possible.
My thoughts for season 4 will be the show will focus on kings landing a ton, focus on the introduction of the Dornish people coming to court at kings landing and their backstory there as well as things taking place back in Dorne to set up that house better for season 5, and also go back to the Ironborn again as they've been kinda absent this season aside from Theon. I think they'll save the book 3 epilogue for a cliffhanger whammy at the end of season four to really mess with people's heads for between seasons 4 and 5 of the show. plus the show managed to keep a secret before when they had the house of the undying's surprise back in season 2, so I have faith. Plus they still have things to do with Dany off in the East and with Jon up north, and Stannis has been relatively absent from the show lately too, so they could stretch out the rest of book 3 across the whole 4th season without having to go too far into book 4.
If I had to guess on a timeline for season 4 it would be the first major remaining event around epsiode 5 or 6, and the second one a few episodes later in episode 9. the epilogue event will be at the end of episode 10. but that's just my guess, I could obviously be wrong. if you want do discuss elsewhere where we don't have to be as vague, hit me up on twitter or my email which is my mgoblog user name @ gmail.com
I feel like I have to watch some care bears or something after that one... boy that was rough
Replay the ending of the 2011 Notre Dame game.
touché...still a little fuzzy in the head after that one
Wow. No one is safe in this show. But I kind of saw this coming, at least as far as Robb dying. He seemed doomed from the moment he decided not to marry Frey's daughter.
I haven't read the books, but at face value, it looks like the Lannisters have Westeros on full-on lockdown until either Dany shows up, which probably won't be for a while anyway, or until the family starts tearing itself apart. But the latter option is entirely plausible. Who knows what Tyrion and Jaime will do, what will happen to Joffrey since Margarey can apparently play him like a fiddle.
Should be making for some great upcoming episodes.
I tenatively agree that the Lannisters have control of westeros for now, but I can't underestimate Stannis (mostly becuase of Melisandre) and even someone else, specifically I would not be shocked to see Littlefinger to do something crazy, or maybe even some sort of in family fighting.
JESUS CHRIST. I am so glad the last act of Lady Stark was slitting that woman's throat. GODDAMMIT. This is highly distressing.
Also: If you kill the good guys, it makes the show/whatthefuckever not worth watching. There's hardly any Starks left. (I count Jon Snow, I don't count Theon).GOD. So angry. Also, seriously: FUCK the Lannisters.
Bran, Arya, Rickon, Jon, and the dumb girl (her name escapes me). That's more than 50%. For now.
True. But ahh...poor Lady Stark. I wanted her to see her daughters alive again. Damn.
Because the rest of the Starks seem like nice people, but a few arrows short of a full quiver in the brains department.
This is exactly the reason I don't go to weddings. No one ever thinks you'll take two crossbow arrows to the chest until it happens.
Mad As i was when they killed Eddard. But then I was hooked. GOT has balls. No other show would do that. I hate them so bad right now, but can't wait until next week!
I decided some might find this NSFW, but follow the link for a fun gif.
That guy Arya was talking about that could kill the Hound with his pinkie, yeah, that was me.
Dude, I really hope you show up again soon and do some murderin' of Arya's foes. Please.
sure, a faceless man could take out the hound...
but one on one in an arena I would take the hound over even his brother...
Holy fuck balls. Holy. Fuck. Balls.
So I can finally say this:
The reason I'm super-duper protective of this thread and not getting book spoilers is the following:
On wikipedia (or whatever wiki is the official one for A Song), I once looked up Robb Stark. I wasn't reading anything at all - I think this was when I was just trying to figure out who was who. However, on the bio card that's on the right of Wiki pages, under a picture it had Robb's years alive. With an end date.
From that point I knew I inadvertantly came across a spoiler. Luckily, this season has kinda built up to Robb's demise, so that wasn't much of a surprise. Still, holy. fuck. balls. The stabbing in the stomach?! And CAT?!?!?!?!?! So, so disappointed. In a "wow that sucks but this show is so amazing" way.
All aboard the Arya bandwagon now. If she doesn't wreak the most epic of revenge, then I'll say too far, GRRM, too far. But we still have our one Stark that has a chance to bring the good guys back to the top.
Don't forget Rickon! He already knows how to swing a sword!
Bran's just starting to discover his powers. And he's got a direwolf.
Is like the professor x character.
Though I was never rooting for the Starks much after Ned died. Other than Arya. I'd like to see Queen Daenerys with Tyrion as Hand to the Queen and Arya as head of the Queensguard. Fanwanking, of course.
I was in the exact same spot with Robb's death. I have to avoid the hell out of ASOIAF wiki. The game of thrones wiki is very safe for TV watchers. But i did the exact same thing, saw the Date of Death, and knew it was coming. Then again, the show forshadowed it pretty heavily.
My only hope for this episode was the Cat would make it out alive. But sadly not.
I had to revisit it like 3 times to make sure I didn't miss anything. I'll echo what some people are saying and that based on how far they seem to be getting with season 3, season 4 will probably be better than this.
You really do have to continuously be on the lookout for spoilers for this show, they are just so prevalent.
I'm with you MGoBender. My one serious hope for this show is for Arya to become some ridiculous harbinger of death and bring the pain to the lannisters, frays, boltons, all those fucks
that have been released so far (2 more to come I believe), I would suggest that viewers don't get too attached to ANY character in this series. I have a few that I am still rooting for -- that are still around at the end of book 5 -- but am braced for dissappointment. For those that have read the books - anyone else hoping they downplay the upcoming Iron-Born storylines? It was one of the few parts in the books that I had trouble getting through and didn't seem to add much to the overall plot. Maybe there is a payoff to come in the last books, but I am much more drawn to the Lannister/Stark/Baratheon/Danearys arcs.
Eh I thought the Asha stuff was kinda dull, but overall it isn't the worst storyline. However the show is already started to get a fragmented feel, and the also need to introduce Dorne next season. If they had to focus on the Ironborn or Dorne next season I would say go fucking Dorne. Amazing how a house that you don't hardly see for the first 2 books can be so fucking awesome.
"Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" -- House Martell
I think the Ironborn story will/should focus of getting Victarion 'out to sea' if you're picking up what I'm putting down. While still unresolved, him reaching his destination portends to have effects on the storylines of other major characters. Euron is the wildcard, still. I thinks that's vague enough for the non readers.
I have a feeling the Iron Born stuff is going to end up playing heavily into the Dany storyline and the Arya storyline (aka, those 3 storylines are going to merge before the end of the books).
Lots of stuff left to happen and lots of twists and turns. Great story.
Everyone laughs at this meme, but as someone who has read all of the books, there has never been a truer statement.
Prepare yourselves people....
You're treading awfully close to spoiler territory man. I know you're talking in generalities, but you're basically saying that one of the main characters that people like is going to die. And there are only so few left currently.
I know in this series "someone you like will die" is not really a spoiler. I'm just being over-protective. Feel free to ignore if I'm too sensitive about this, but I will do everything I can to prevent something being spoiled for me again :)
you are way too sensitive.
All he is saying is that GRRM is known for killing off main characters; this fact is what sets the series apart. Repeating that fact is in no way shape or form a spoiler.
It is the same as saying the Hoke will lock down an amazing recruit soon. We don't know who, but it will happen. And nothing is ' spoiled'...
ps. you have the other moron above posting blatant spoilers and you let that go (at least twice)...
You're right I am being way too sensitive, which is why I admitted as much.
I feel this is a special place where people respect the non readers and I just hope that It stays that way
This might be the greatest thing I have ever seen.
After this episode how is the season finale supposed to not be a letdown.
I think that season four will be, from start to finish, the best season yet. Splitting the 3rd book in two seasons has given the show the benefit of showcasing some of the best, most world altering events without having to gloss over too much.
The best battles, the most 'fuck yea' moments, and the 'finally' events happen in the 3rd book. It is also the book were whatever you thought might happen, changes, We got a taste of this with Robb this past episode.
I'm not trying to spoil, but to give some encouragement to those still in shock or angered by this show after what we saw tonight.
I haven't read the thread yet but:
I promise you guys that are upset about losing your favorite character that there are many other characters that will surface or that you already know who will become your favorite.
This is not the last time GRRM does something horrible, but my 3 favorite story lines are still going strong through book 5.
For non readers all I can say is this, when they eat bread and salt at the reception there is supposed to mean that they're safe under the roof they're under, breaking that tradition is a great act of treason, so what happened there will not be forgotten for a long time and there will be repercussions.
As a "watcher, then reader" its somewhat comforting to hear that, but I'd rather hear nothing. Please be careful about what you reveal in the books. Had you never typed this I would have assumed/predicted that there would be no reprecussions because who's left to say "that was wrong."
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm probably just being over-protective here, so take my comment with a grain of salt.
Also, as a "watcher, then reader" even some comments about who's left in books 5 or how the books are different are kind of spoilers. I am disappointed to read here that Robb's wife was not killed in the books - that would have been an interesting/pleasant surprise when I read Storm of Swords.
So, just throwing out another request for thoughtfullness from all you book readers who have really done a respectful job of not trolling and giving things away.
Well, if you've read any of the books so far, you'd understand that while the show is decent, it has changed various things or left things out, generally for the worst unfortunately. And quite honestly, the wife not dying in the books is not a pleasant surprise, at least not when you combine it with the plot of who his wife and her family are in the books.
I much preferred the way Danearys took this last city in the books. Alas no Strong Belwas character in the series - although aside from that scene (and one later on) - he really is a minor character. Plus I don't think they could have gotten that scene past the censors...even at HBO. (Teaser to get others to read the books.)
Honestly, you are being way to over protective, if you feel that strongly about spoilers then dont click into the thread. The OP (of this comment) didnt provide anything other than information relevant to a tradition in the GoT universe, sure foreshadowing context is there, but that has been there from the beginning ("Winter is coming").
The single biggest change from the books to TV, was in the first book, it seemed like every other line was "Winter is coming". The TV series while having that line, doesn't have the same intensity of it. I think it is safe to say, that any thread related to GoT is going to have book spoilers at least to that point in the timeline of the books. Its like people need to be reminded that Spoilers are Coming!
He merely gave background on the "traditions and conventions" in Westeros. His last line about repercussions is nothing more than speculation, as so far in the books there's nothing significant.
Anyone else? That scene burned in my mind for a while last night. Now, as I countdown the time to next week, I'm wondering how Tyrion is going to take this news? I'm not a book reader, just thinking out loud. Don't tell me.
I haven't read the books so I don't know how much payback happens up through book 5. I take solace in the fact that the yet to be written 7th and final book "A Dream for Spring" was originally going to be called "A Time for Wolves."
uhm... no spoilers please! I don't want you 'web researchers' ruining my reactions to the tv show, so please don't post here about possible names of as yet unwritten books that may or may not conclude the series...
What do you guys know about funny!!! That was pure comedic genius and you just see it as trolling... I'm disappointed but I accept that much like Jesus Christ, Einstein, and Chumbawamba, Jdon isn't appreciated in his own time...
There are several minor characters to this point (and some yet to be introduced) that have me anxiously awaiting books 6 and 7 in hopes of seeing them "get theirs" based on upcoming events. I won't give hints on the current villains, except to say that the books are just as unpredictable for them as they have been for the Starks thus far. Meaning you probably won't see what you hope/expect......................or will you?
What book are they at with the TV show now? 3?
About 2/3 of the way through book 3. Book 3 will continue into season 4 with a strong probability of books 4 and 5 being mixed in. Also, the Theon storyline is out of book 5.
Yeah, but parts of book 3, book 4, and book 5 all run parallel to some regard, so linear wise the reese/theon events aren't totally out of timeline.
I mentioned it because if he wants to get to the point where he's read "everything" that's in the shows, then he'll need to read all of the books.
When running the timelines in my head I really thougn this would be the season finale. They did a great job with this and my wife gave a very audible "ugh" when evrything began to unfold at the wedding. It seems that there can only be one other logical end point to this season, but I thought more transpired betwen the red wedding and "it" in the book. That seems to be the only thing that could rival the red wedding in the way of a climax. Anyway, can't wait until next Sunday, then it will be back to book one to start over for the offseason.
Well, there are about 400 pages between those two events and only one relevant chapter. I've had a theory for a while that they are going to finish up certain storylines from book 3 this season and then they can start bringing in some book 4 storylines next season. While interesting things are happening in book 3, they can start setting up plot for books 4 and 5. Then, when book 3 finishes and those storylines grow stale, the ones that they moved ahead on can start becoming a bit more interesting.
The previous two seasons the earth-shattering episodes were 9. The last was tying things up and setting up next season. Which doesn't send you out on as big a note, but isn't as much of a cliffhanger thing either.
I almost always read books before I watch a movie/TV show based on that book. I own the books but didn't read them first in this case. My question is: For those of you that have read them, does it spoil the show in any way, or are you just as entertained? I would like to read them this summer, but GOT is probably my favorite show. I generally prefer books to movies/shows, but I'm glad in this case that I didn't know what was coming last night. Thoughts?
I don't find the show as engrossing anymore now that I've read the books. I read them between last season and this one. Having said that, I think the books were definitely worth the read and, overall, better than the show. Plus, it's a lot easier understanding subplots and the characters themselves when you get 1200+ pages as opposed to 10 hours per season.
I think they (D&D) do extremely well at keeping the readers guessing..
I don't want to cite examples here but just in last night's episode there were two people at the wedding who should have not been, we as readers have no idea what their fates would be. And I like that.
Eventually the series will pass the books. How we readers deal with that I don't know...
The series isn't planning to go ahead of the books. Books 4 and 5 will likely be double season books like book 3. Given the wealth of new places and material in them, this seems very likely. By that time even GRRM should have book 6 out. And the show producers and runners have previous discussed putting in a pause or doing an interlude based on other content GRRM has produced in the ASOFAI universe.
So it is highly unlikely that HBO will start writing new plot. At worst, they'll work with GRRM to do pre-production based on what he's finished of the next book. FYI, book 6 is apparently 1/3 done with the first 500 pages roughly ready.
I don't know where you saw the 500 pages but that makes sense, seeing how he had a head start with chapters pulled from book 5...
I am just pessimistic on the complete timeline wherein I doubt we see a conclusion of the series before 2019 or 2020, and that is if things go well... I would bet we don't see WoW until 2015, plus there will be more Dunk and Egg... I have heard the rumors of dunk and egg to hold us over while waiting for Dream of Spring, but who knows really?
honestly I am interested to see what they do with the show once season 4 is complete. With the narrative structure of 4 and 5 they will obviously be joining them for the t.v. show, but things can be very strained on a tv audience at that point (especially considering how many new characters are introduced in books four and five)...
I'm rambling now, but I'll just stop and say that the completion of the series and the books will be a miracle if they are done before 2020, at which point the younger characters will be much too old looking... imho.
I watch the show with a bunch of non-readers so in a way knowing what happens, and seeing their reactions enhances the experience for me. I would say that if you enjoy the show alone, maybe "watch then read", but if you watch with a group then go ahead and read ahead!
This is really hard to answer without "spoiling" things in the books, but I would say it's definitely worth it. I enjoy knowing back stories and why things are happening a certain way. It also makes it easier to discuss the events because you don't have to worry about someone dropping a spoiler on you. When changes are made in the show, I'll often explain them to my wife because she wouldn't have any idea of the details that she's missing out on by not reading the books.
Plus, as surprised as you are, the big events are that much better in the books because you truly have no idea they are coming. On the show, the foreshadowing is almost painful because it gives away so much. I think if you read the books, you'll get to enjoy the big events twice. The first time will be better from the book. The second time will be slightly lessened but watching them translating it to the screen so perfectly and seeing others react to what you knew had been coming will give you a different type of enjoyment.
Plus, as surprised as you are, the big events are that much better in the books because you truly have no idea they are coming.
I wouldn't go quite that far. Most things, yes. When Dany fucked up the slavers in Astapor, that was out of the blue. And awesome. Other seminal events in the book, too.
The Red Wedding, though, is actually pretty well foreshadowed. Not that you'd guess what's about to happen, but there are a whole bunch of things that are just "off" that lead up to it. And I guess don't want to say too much for the sake of non-readers, but the style of the writing changes in the approaching chapters. Maybe it's not foreshadowing as much as a deep foreboding. But for me, as the pages got closer and closer to "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," it felt like an approaching storm. Couldn't have guessed how badly things would go, but I was convinced they weren't going to go well.
"Jaime Lannister sends his regards,"
What's funny/ironic to me is that Jaime, in his own way, is actually being his version of polite and even honorable when he said it, only Roose misunderstands him because to him and all Westeros, Jaime's the Kingslayer and of course that's what a Kingslayer means when he says that...
I think I have a different feeling with serialized treatments (comics and such) than stand alone, in depth things, like novels. Because they're adapting things differently. I generally think if you read something first, then see it on tv, it's going to disappoint because they're not doing it exactly as you wan them to. And TV and movies are visual medium, so shocking events are more shocking and visuals exciting. They do that better. What books do is get far more in-depth than any show can, and that's still there. If I knew the RW was coming, it probably wouldn't have meant as much on screen. If I see a scene on tv and know it's coming in the books, I still get all the added backstory, new characters, motivations, and things I don't get just watching it, so the book is very entertaining.
But I've gone both ways, and every reading/watching experience differs. But just a different angle. With the Walking Dead I watched then read, then watched. But something like that strays so far away from the source material, I'm not sure it matters. Might depend on the type of source material, and who is doing it. Things like Jaws and Jurassic Park lend themselves more to movies than books (and especially in the former case, are elevated in adaptation). But then you can get something like Iron Man 3, which if you don't know the source material, you probably love, but if you do, annoys you quite a bit.
So basically, I've given you no answers. Sorry.
There are lots of comments to which I could have responded for this, but I wanted to make sure this gets seen so people don't abandon the show.
For the non-readers, just remember that there was a large outcry against the show after Ned was killed and many people threatened to stop watching the show. However, that scene was necessary for Robb to become the King of the North. Certain things needed to happen the way that they did for the story to continue in the way that it did. When one storyline ends, another begins. I'm not saying that there is a silver lining in this, but as the story continues, I think you'll understand why this happened.
The complaints here are completely lost on me. One of the things that makes the show so great is that it can elicit such an emotional response. It's not simply "shock value" when it makes so much sense. I suspected there would be repercussions and the whole wedding made me nervous. Not that I seen THAT coming, but I had a nagging feeling of dread from the time they had arrived.
After having a day to digest things... I feel it would have been "cheap" for things not to happen the way they did.
I think some people would be better off watching The Avengers again... Or basically every other movie/TV show where the good guy wins/gets the girl and there's always a happy ending. I personally think GOT is the best show I've ever seen and last night only reinforced that for me.
The thing is that with Ned and Robb it is initially shocking but after rationality kicks in, you can see that GRRM clearly signposted their respective demises and set it up quite nicely to where it was a logical payoff. Without going too much into depth, I will say I personally have some big quibbles with how GRRM handles these kinds of things in the later and as yet unfilmed books. I'm going to be really (and by really, I mean 'morbidly') interested to see how HBO handles A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.
Also... is it just my faulty memory but is the other shocking thing about last night's episode the complete absence of boobs and butts?
ETA: joeyb's comments above mine are all pretty much spot-on.
I think the show will attempt the unenviable task of combining books 4 and 5 in order to maintain the flow of the realm's events. I can't imagine a season without Danaerys, Jon Snow or anyone else in the north.
With this plan books 4 and 5 could span 3 seasons and Martin would have four years from now to get book 6 published
This thread has almost as many posts as the rest of the season threads combined.
Right after the episode, I checked and there were 20 responses. I woke up this morning to over 150. Now, we're over 200. You can still tell where it happened though. Just look for the "well fuck" comment.
Just an honest reaction. I muttered out loud "fuck me" at the time. Then the numbness wore off and it got wild up in here.
As a reader who has read the entire book series (1-5) for two rounds, I recommend watching this video:
Watching the non-readers' reactions after last night's show was priceless.
That compilation cut out the best part of this video:
*gasp* *scream* *popcorn*
Viewers got off easy, in fact. In the books, Arya's chapter ends giving you the impression that she has also been killed. IIRC it's much further along into the book before you learn that she was only knocked out, so you spend a good portion of SoS thinking she's dead.
The show never teases that idea - I can only imagine because the writers knew everyone would already be losing their shit after the wedding. It would have been easy to apparently "kill" Arya at the end of episode nine and not reveal that she was still alive until season four. But all the people swearing never to watch the show again might actually follow through!
WTF. Stop posting fucking details. Just quit. I've read them all, so no issue for me but many others (and mods) have asked repeatedly for people to not do what you just did.
All I did was talk about stuff that has happened up to this point.... Really not sure how I've ruined it for anyone. No spoilers here, no details about future events except to say Arya is still alive, which.... we all know that because the show DIDN'T tease her death. I'm pretty far from the first person to compare the events of the show to the events as portrayed in the books, too. So honestly, I have no idea what I've supposedly done wrong here.
so I'm just jumping into the fray now, but I've been reading... This is my kind of blog ... over 200 posts about Game ot Thrones, Brian tosses the Minard infographic on the home page and it's a Michigan blog to boot.
Commence stream of consciousness...
As a non-book reader, I did indeed have Robb's death spoiled for me on this very blog earlier this season, so thanks whoever you are, but whatevz. I didn't know exactly how it would happen. I think the dong-punch was Cat buying it. Probably the most devastating final seconds of any show I've ever seen. Well, you know what ... how soon we forget Lori's c-section on TWD, but this was more shocking. Love both shows, Sundays are always "nice."
This event reminds me of "Luke I'm you father/losing his hand/Han in carbonite" on some major steroids. But that's what made Empire so great.
For the first 50 minutes I was cringing over how close Arya and Bran were coming to being reuinited with Jon and Robb/Cat ... then neither happened. I suppose Dog sitting there eating pig's feet probably saved Arya's life, otherwise she would have been at the reception on time.
Where did Blackfish go after he whizzed?
There has been some talk on this blog about the show overtaking the books, and I think a good way to allow GRRM to either catch up or talk his time would be to spread out a season by doing some flashbacks a la LOST. Each of the ten episodes could feature Robert and Ned fighting alongside Jorah to defeat Balon, taking the Iron Throne, and Jaime's SLAYING of the Mad King, seeing how Wylla and Ned's affair happened, Ned's father and brother being murdered by the Mad King, etc.. They might need to find some younger actors but that would be fun to watch on screen even though we know what's going to happen. Just to see an opening scene of "season 7" or whatever with a young Ned and Robert sitting in a tavern drinking and halfway through their conversation you realize it's them ... Just a thought.
Back when Arya was serving as Tywin's cup girl she talked about the Targaryen sisters who rode the dragons as if they were her heroines, and Tywin commented on it. I think there's something to that, but that's totally my guess ... again, I have not read the books and please don't confirm anything as such if you did.
Love this show. Love this blog. Thanks all.
The show isn't going to overtake the books anytime soon. We have at least two more seasons of content from the currently released books. Book 6 will be out by then (probably this year or next. It's called Winds of Winter so maybe a winter release before next season) and will add another 1-2 seasons of content. So, now we're talking about the show overtaking the books sometime around season 7. That's 4 years out. I read somewhere that GRRM is has 25% of the next book completely done. I assume that means edited and that he is putting finishing touches on the rest. I thought I also read somewhere that he's already started on book 7 so hopefully he will be able to finish that up in the 2-3 years between finishing book 6 and the start of season 7.
regarding the show taking over the books... (and this will be a long-ish ramble)
The producers are very likely in a 'we'll cross that bridge when we get to it' mode. And that's understandable because they will have a lot of other things on their plate. But if the TV show continues being a ratings success, it WILL overtake the books.
What became A Feast for Crows (published in 2005) and A Dance With Dragons (published in 2011) were originally two parts of the fourth novel that was intended to follow A Storm of Swords (published in 2000) The original plan was also to have the fourth book set 5 years after Storm in order to give things time to settle down. This would have given time for the surviving Stark kids/Dany to hit puberty, etc. It would have also necessitated a ton of flashbacks, so that notion was scrapped. What then happened was that Feast and Dance were split up geographically because there were so many divergent point-of-view chapters... not the most ideal solution, but certainly an understandable one.
Still, somewhere along the line, GRRM painted himself into a corner. Some folks may be optimistic about Winds of Winter coming out soonish because 500 pages of it are already written and simply didn't make it into Dance. That's super - we heard that song and dance before in 2005:
They may be able to start filming Winds of Winter by the time, you know, it's actually done. Even GRRM can get a book done in 5 years' time. If 2014 is the 2nd half of Storm, and 2015&2016 are some mashup of Feast/Dance, then you can get Winds in 2017. That's very doable. Even if that happens, GRRM still has to write the seventh novel and there is no way that's happening by 2018, let alone 2019 or 2020.
Now, there is some reason for guarded optimism here - the Feast/Dance bit represents the middle hump of a story that any author - particularly GRRM - will tell you is the hardest to slog through. (And if you've read Feast/Dance it certainly shows, imo) If he's moved past that, then it might be clearer sailing for the last two novels.
These are outweighed by all the reasons for pessimism - A Game of Thrones' success has given GRRM even more side projects on his plate; in addition to non-novel series projects like editing sci-fi compilations and guest appearances at conventions. Hey, if he's getting to reap the byproducts of his newfound fame, more power to him, but it does add to an already busy schedule. Moreover, I personally feel he's lost control of the story and he'll have to do a yeoman's job of getting it back on track in Winds of Winter. He'll be the first to tell you he's not a fast writer and well.... people's exhibit A is the last thirteen years.
I know GoT is a big hit for HBO, but they've cancelled big budget shows before. Deadwood and Rome were both cut short, with the stated reason being financial and not ratings-related. Honestly, I wonder how many more seasons GoT has coming. I figure if we're lucky, we get two more years for five total, at which point we're more or less caught up with the books (assuming we don't get the next one by then, which I think is a 50/50 proposition at best.) If HBO has to wait for another book, I think that's the death knell for sure. If we're to get a sixth season, that will probably require the sixth book to be released prior to or around the time the fifth season airs. But a seventh season seems an impossible dream either way, as we won't get the seventh book anywhere within a workable time frame, and I'm far less optimistic than others that HBO will just write it themselves from there on, in order to extend a show that has already run for six years and cost a ton to produce.
I hope to be wrong of course, just as I hope the sixth book comes out this winter and the seventh book soon after that. But I'm not sure I see it happening. Maybe I'm just feeling sorry for myself because The Borgias just got cancelled (lousy Showtime - It was your best show!)
But I think the Borgias has kinda meandered this season. They put the cool assassin guy in a love story; like I want to see Darth Maul argue with his wife. They seem to have the Moonlighting curse- after brother and sister slept together, they don't know what to do.
I don't think this has been the Borgias' best season, although I still think it's a better show than most of what's on TV. The unfortunate thing is that one more season would essentially finish the story, as two of the major characters are nearing the end of their historical plot lines, as it were. So it's a bummer to me that we can't just get that one more season.
This is what will keep Game of Thrones on TV. They have continuously increased their ratings each season. With all of the talk about the Red Wedding and a strong finish this week, season 4 might even top The Sopranos' best season. As long as they are bringing in subscriptions, they will have what they need to continue. If the show starts slipping and losing viewers, they'll either have to cut back the budget a bit or cancel the show. Either way, I think this next episode and next season will keep adding subscriptions. Depending on how they handle season 5, I could see them getting cut off after season 6, but I think they'll make it 7 or 8 seasons. Keep in mind that the Sopranos made it 86 episodes and Game of Thrones has a lot more content to work with, so 8 or 9 seasons to finish the 7 books isn't really out of the realm of possibility.
But in his defense GoT costs a hell of a lot more to make than most of those do. Filming in Jersey isn't quite the expense of filming in Westeros.
I agree that the ratings are a great argument for keeping GoT going, and I certainly hope those ratings stay high because I want the show to run as long as possible. But it is still very expensive, so it won't have to dip in ratings as low as some other shows have dipped in order for HBO to become conflicted about keeping it. Trying to be as vague as possible and keep myself out of trouble here, but there are those who think the books start to become a bit less interesting once we've passed a certain couple more big events in book three, and if the show doesn't spice things up a little compared to a lot of book four and five (or if some of the people upset about the RW decide they don't want to watch anymore,) then I can see the ratings coming down some. It'll still be HBO's biggest show - or one of their two biggest depending on where BE goes from here - but it'll also continue to be easily the most expensive. Lena Dunham's boobs come a lot cheaper than CGI dragons.
Well, I expect that any dip in the ratings will cause them to re-evaluate what they are doing with the show. As long as they are increasing viewers, keep doing what you're doing, but once there is a sign of a decline, you either scale back expenses or cancel the show. I think that the Red Wedding and this final episode will result in increases in viewers for next season. If they do what I think they are going to do with next season, I expect an increase in viewers in season 5, at least for the first episodes. They typically greenlight after seeing the results of the first episode, so that would mean a 6th season. However, if there is a dip next season due to the red wedding, I'd guess that we might not even get a season 5 or 6.