It's really sad-- incognito seems to have a hard time socially, and then his best friend tries to ruin his career/reputation. Just brutal.
OT-Full Jonathan Martin/Richie Incognito text message history released.
I can't believe I'd end up feeling sorry for Richie Incognito after reading those texts.
Richie's just looking for a friend to do terrible things with, thought he had a buddy, and his friend reported him.
What a weird, weird story.
Nothing good comes from communicating with people. Everyone stay inside on your computers
Apparently Incognito has a thing for hookers and blow.
I thought that Richie got what he deserved when the story first broke. But after reading all of the texts, I feel for Richie. Regardless of his prior rep, it seems like he actually did take Martin under his wing.
I think there will be backlash for a number of other people. The first that comes to mind is Ireland. Im not sure what Kevin Hogans status is, but he could be affected as well.
The drugs and hookers arent a surprise, but it still puts a black eye on the organization.
Wow I did not expect that. Incognito is not a model citizen by any stretch but it really looks like Martin threw him under the bus.
Martin looks like a guy that became morally conflicted, broke and used Incognito as the blame for his own actions.
Martin seemed to love the life, then felt guilty and conflicted and tried distancing himself from Richie. Just strange stuff all around. It reminds me of a conversation that I would have had as a senior in high school or freshman in college:immature as heck.
I'm actually not very familiar with how this all played out. Who exactly broke the story? Seems to me like Martin probably would have rather seen the whole incident blow over. Incognito definitely got thrown under the bus, but it's hard for me to feel very sorry for a guy promoting that type of putrid lifestyle.
In the end though, I'd say it's the Dolphin's management who look the worst in all this. They're the ones who brought in an upstanding young Stanford graduate and tried to turn him into a criminal, using Incognito as a Stooge. The whole staff knew exactly what was going on, but seemed to think it would just make Martin somehow "tougher" are promote comraderie.
How does this reflect that poorly on Dolphins management? The whole staff knew? These are professionals and adults. what they do on their own time is their business. If they had been caught breaking the law it would be one thing, but saying it's on the staff is like saying your boss is responsible for that DUI you and your coworker got.
The Dolphins are the ones who knowingly drafted a Stanford-educated son of two Harvard graduates who went to private school his whole life, and then sat and watched as a bunch of goons went and tried to suck the guy into a disgusting lifestyle, all in the name of... what? brotherhood and comraderie? This is really more like your boss sending Mother Theresa on a booze cruise with Ozzy Osbourne and then acting surprised when she tries to swim to shore...
This is the NFL. The best players get drafted and play on teams with all types. You act as if this Stanford educated, high class brain surgeon was torn from his job and forced to play professional football and befriend Incognito. Did you even read the transcript? Up until the end of October, Martin was all in with both feet.
Peer pressure is a powerful thing and things are not always as they seem. Considering Martin felt so distraught by late October that he went so far as to check himself into a mental hospital, I'm guessing his reservations went a bit farther back than you're assuming.
You're just denying the obvious, which is that the Dolphins management didn't do their homework on this. If they had, they wouldn't be down two starting offensive linemen now, would they?
but they have no choice now. The homework the dolphins mgmt needed to do was ask "Does he have character issues?"
The answer is no. Other than that, Martin is an adult and a professional. If you want to treat him like the middle school new kid, that's your prerogative. But is misplaced.
why it matters that he went to Stanford and his parents Harvard. Would this be different if he went to Junior college and his parents worked at McDonald's?
Clearly there was somewhat of a clash in values between Martin and his teammates. Clashes in values usually stem from a person's upbringing (and please don't play the "well there are exceptions" line... of course there are exceptions, but that's completely irrelevant here) What don't you understand about that?
What exactly is disgusting about young rich guys trying to get laid and having fun?
there may a difference between trying to get laid and have fun and trying to re-enact The Hangover 4 nights per week. I get what you are saying, but I also think that it may not be a common as you think for high level athletes to go on multi-day alcohol poisoning binges nearly every week. My guess is that is not the prototype professional athlete.
In large markets, and especially warm cities there is something called "night life." Young guys in there 20's usually partake in this so called "night life" and do even more so if they have the funds to fuel thier escapades. This is not exclusive to athletes, but is more prevelent than a lot of people realize. The offseason is the time to endulge in this "night life" and if you read the text you would realize that the parties pretty much die down once training camp starts in late July.
do you not think that this very "nightlife" idea of yours may take place in other places than Miami. Yes, I am aware that young rebel-rousers go out into the "nightlife" and have their escapades and participate in their shinnanegans and other tomfoolery. There is nightlife and there is Leaving Las Vegas. I don't think Jonathan Martin was being "bullied" I think he wanted to get away from drinking until blackout stages several nights a week and picked a very poor way to do so. Incognito may not have been bullying Martin but it is clear from those texts that he has several pretty serious problems and hopefully he is getting the help he clearly needs.
then I have nothing to say to you.
I endorse it. You're putting words in my mouth.
If ever there was a time for the "Not sure if serious" reply, this is it.
I am 100% serious when I say that the Dolphins' management screwed up and didn't do their homework on this situation. It played out very badly, and it could have been much worse. Clearly, Martin was extremely emotionally unstable by late October - how would you have feel about the situation if he had harmed himself rather than seeking professional help?
That was a good analogy. Kudos
Martin dug his own grave. He will never play in the NFL again.
And worse, he might have dug Incognito's grave too.
Weird. Martin didn't leave the team and blame Incognito just for the hell of it, though. Maybe he's got some personality or emotional issues.
I think that's what happened. It sounds like, from those last couple pages of texts, that Martin checked himself in to a psychiatric unit, which indicated things were not right for him mentally.
Wow, end up feeling bad for Incognito, not just for getting thrown under the bus, but for also seeming to never be able to do anything more than slap and tickle with a girl. Seems just like two buddies back and forth, don't know what made Martin flip.
I've had the weird theory that incognito might've tried to molest him or something, but it doesn't seem that way at the end of the texts. Something felt really off as soon as the story broke.
I'm not trying to be a meathead or pretend bullying doesn't exist, but guys talk trash to each other for fun. Especially competitive guys, which I assume most athletes are. When outsiders are around me and my friends that I grew up with, they honestly think we don't like each other or something. Probably 75%+ of our conversations are shit-talking. Personally, I love it and it provides good humor. I think the barbershop scene in Gran Torino kind of explains it the best. Maybe Martin truly felt bullied, but Incognito might have just been playing around like he does with all the other guys ... not necessarily targeting Martin to bully him.
How are ya doin Martin, you crazy Italian prick?
You sonofabitch prick barber.
I mean I work in a manufacturing plant and its the same here. You know that people accept you if they start giving you crap for everything. Unfortunately it does happen occaisionally that someone takes it wrong and it doesn't end well - not sure that's the case here though. I didn't read everything but it sounds like Martin just got tired of it and tossed Incognito under the bus
Does anyone have any idea why he waited until now to release all of the texts?
My guess is that it's because they're hugely embarrassing for him. It more or less proves his point, but good luck to him making friends with anyone who reads these before meeting him
Man, that's fucked up. A lot of people said some pretty bad things about Incognito. Martin is pretty much just a lack of a better term, pussy.
I found it interesting that Martin was the one that texted a pic that said "I will murder your whole f***ing family," (obviously not serious given the context), but a week later, Incognito was characterized as a bully and a racist when his voice messages and texts were presented in the mainstream media without any context at all.
I mean, how else was the "mainstream media" supposed to take it? He was accused of bullying, and then it became known that he sent n-bombs and death threats to Martin. There was no context available to present them in.
If he had released these then, things would have been different. I know it's easy to blame the media, but I'm not sure what else they were supposed to do with what they were given at the time. It looked pretty horrible.
"Well, he said 'I'll kill you n****er, but he probably deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one"?
Unfortunately these days with Twitter everyone is considered a ''news source''. The Reason why I can't stand the media these days. Everything spreads like wildfire and people believe all the bs they're being fed.
Incognito: Hell yea Did u go to pouncey's after? I'll kill u if u did
Martin: Lol hell no. No drugs for me rest of season
Incognito: Goooood That shit is ridiculous
Hey! Watch this!
Hyde: Did you go to Noah Spence's after?
Braxton: Lol hell no. No drugs for me rest of season
Hyde: Goooood That shit is ridiculous
Not trying to hijack the thread, but this just illustrates what happens when people jump to conclusions. Makes me think twice before saying anything about the Gibbons situation.
I am curious what you disagree with me about?
This. In cases like these (when the public has so little information), the certainty and speed with which people draw conclusions drives me crazy. I understand the desire to have clearly defined villains and victims, but oftentimes the fair, responsible thing to do is reserve judgment.
I somewhat feel bad for Incognito because you can tell he really cares about Martin. He's constantly checking in with him to see what he's up to and seeing if he wants to hang out.
At the same time, Incognito has this habit especially early on in the texts where he randomly hurls an unprovoked insult at Martin, which Martin usually responds with F U! As long as Martin knows what's up and has not complained that shouldn't be a big deal.
Neither of them come off looking good from those texts though. Strange situation.
So Martin is gay. I'm not bashing, I'm just saying.
I negged myself here and will leave this up for you to do also. I only read asmall portion of those texts and quickly jumped to the conculsion that Martin was gay. After reading all of the messages I realized that I was stupid, this has nothing to do with his sexuality. I'm sorry and except all the negs. Its a fucking shame that I went there.
Because everyone murders people
The problem is by the time the facts come out people have overreacted to 20 new stories without all the facts.
Based on these i have to completely change my ill-advised opinion from "Incognito's a bully" to "Martin massively overreacted and threw his friend under the bus". My guess would be Martin, in attempting to explain why he stormed out of practice, blamed Incognito rather than admitting he was the one with a problem. And then the story snowballed massively and he didn't know how to get out of it.
If you read the very last text's two things seem clear to me. One - that Incognito genuinelly cared about Martin's well-being and was worried about him first and himself second. And two - that Martin didnt seem to hold any malice towards Incognito at that time.
I think this is also an example of somebody telling a story so many times (I got bullied) that they start to believe it themselves. And why on earth didnt Incognito release these earlier? Clearly that would've completely flipped the narrative.
possible that even though Martin through him under the bus, Incognito didn't want to do the same because of their friendship and he knew Martin was having mental problems?
That's what I thought too. As I read it I kept thinking Incognito's not a villan at all here. As a matter of fact - it looked to me like he was trying to help and even protect Martin.
Just like he said he was.
How the story was that Incognito threatened to "Kill his whole family" and then you see that it was a fricken' gif of a crazy-lady and her dog.... pretty sums up how distorted this whole thing was allowed to get
Martin sent him a very similar image before that one too, with the baseball kid saying "They sent me to the bench, I sent them to their graves"
A Woman is involved..they always are when shit hits the fan..Martin got in trouble and had to make a choice..the woman made the choice for him because he is a cuckyboy
I'm not saying that either one deserves to lose their multi-million dollar careers over what seems like "normal" banter between friends (note, I didn't read them all), but this basically proves the front page lesson. You should try to avoid doing things that would reflect poorly upon you if put on the front page of the New York Times, or internet, or whatever. They both put themselves in a position to look like dicks, whether it's in or out of context. Kind of like Riley Cooper at the Chesney concert last summer.
Now, I do plenty of bad stuff when I'm in the safety and privacy of my friends, so I don't want to sound preachy. But if something I did like this did come out, I would have no one to blame but myself.
some homosexual repression going on? For young, single, rich athletes who talk nonstop about bedding women, they rarely sleep with women. And they text each other a lot. A lot.
Yea, it seems like we've reached a general consensus which is that Incognito certainly doesn't seem like a villain here and unless something happened offline, it appears that Martin (or Martin's agent, which Incognito suggests as a possibility) basically threw Incognito under the bus. I know I've sent worst texts and said worse things to my buddies. I saw nothing that crossed the line.
And, how bad does this make the NFL look? They better spin this as an isolated case because what I took from the exchanges was:
1. Two separate NFL players checked themselves into mental institutions (Incognito mentioned he'd done this in the past) like it was no big thing.
2. The NFL might have an alcohol/substance abuse problem.
...is a piece of shit.
Yet some how Jonathan Martin is far worse.
I think neither guy comes off smelling like roses here, but consider:
1) Young, athletic, single, wealthy guys. Clearly this is not the way true professionals or more mature players would handle themselves. But partying, going to strip clubs, etc. is (sadly) not shocking or unexpected behavior from wealthy single guys in their 20's who are on the prowl.
2) Incognito definitely seemed to be the alpha-male of the two, with Martin the younger wing-man. But it's clear that through the bulk of the exchanges, Martin was definitely into the ride as well. He'd often initiate the social plans as well. Now, maybe that's becasue he was insecure and wanted to show Incognito that he was an alpha-male too, but at the end of the day, Martin was a willing participant.
3) With Martin coming from a seemingly stable two-parent household, I'm wondering to what degree did his parents become aware of this dynamic and try to put a stop to it.
4) Even still, if Martin finally "saw the light" and realized he was being influenced by the wrong element in the lockeroom, there are FAR more normal ways to part ways from a guy like Incognito. Now, maybe with Incognito being a meathead, he didn't take well once he realized his sidekick was starting to pull away from him socially. Perhaps that's where the bullying came in?
5) Even with that dynamic though, the smart way to back away from a potentially volitile bully is not to make any dramatic changes in behavior or announcements, but to just get interested in other stuff. Don't become unpleasant, don't tell him off, don't judge the guy for his desire to continue a partying lifestyle. Maybe still even go out with him on occasion. Just slowly phase the guy out--start going out less & less. Get into golf. Get an actual girlfriend. Flip the switch and get into your career more and adopt a "my body is my temple" attitude to maximize the likelihood of a long and healthy career. Start up a charity in the local community. Whatever. At first Incognito would be pissed that he's losing his little party buddy, but trust me, over time, Incognito would soon find another drinking/party buddy.
6) Unless something truly odd happened outside those text exchanges (like a molestation or something), I just don't see ANY reason why Martin would blow the lid off of this stuff. The only thing I could think of is Incognito was a convenient villian if Martin was caught doing something bad--either by the team, or even his parents. He's still a "kid" in his mid 20's after all. Yes, that is an adult and he should man up and be responsible for his own actions. But in many close-knit (and sometimes overbearing) families, a 23-25 year old still has tremendously influenced (if not intimidated) by his parents. If he was a helicopter kid, I could see him blaming Incogninto on "peer pressure" to reduce any blame that he might normally have to take.
Both are pigs, with Incognito the leader of the group. But in the end, Martin appears to have hadled this whole thing very, very badly.
Maybe that was Martin's problem too.