OT - El Clasico
The Sunday futbol thread got buried in the stack before people could properly debrief and decompress from yesterday's insane El Clasico game, so let's discuss!
- Leo Messi performed the ultimate sports mic drop yesterday, perhaps only surpassed by what Tom Brady did in this year's Superbowl.
- Real Madrid probably deserved to win given their brutal assault on the goal, even more intense after going a man down, but Ter Stegen was heroic by only conceding two goals.
- Sergio Ramos cemented his legacy as one of the most nefarious thugs in soccer history with his full-speed cleats-up slide tackle intended for Messi's ankles.
- Marco Asensio is Ronaldo's heir-apparent.
- Marcelo was unstoppable on the left, despite being ripped by Real fans and Ronaldo for not having tackled Roberto on his final brilliant run.
- Ivan Rakitic also has skills.
He's one of the best centerbacks in the world, so I don't qualify him as a "scrub" even if he is a dirty player. I know what you're saying, though. I hate the rolling around on the ground and arguing every small foul. It's taxing on the brain, especially when you read stuff about NHL players breaking bones and tearing muscles and still playing through the injuries for their teams.
Casemiro, despite scoring, is a scrub. Only job is to hack down Leo and did it 4 or 5 times somehow without getting sent off. His yellow was a more dangerous tackle than Ramos' red but for some reason show studs is an automatic sending off when the far more dangerous scizzor motion is not.
April 24th, 2017 at 11:42 PM ^
but it makes sense, IMO, because:
1) The field is huge and refs can't really see very well so players "help" them out. Without punishment, they'll continue to do so.
2) There are no TOs or stoppages of play in soccer so half the time guys wriggle on the ground, it's to get some rest/give their teammates a rest.
Soccer is MUCH more physically bruising than basketball, though. I love both sports but you aren't nearly as physically beaten up after a basketball game. Guys aren't kicking your shins/knees/ankles, or stepping on your feet with cleats or knocking heads with you on a header, or tackling you in basketball. Not to mention the whole no TOs/no subs thing. There's a reason basketball teams can play back-to-back nights and sometimes 4-5 game in a week in the NBA, but no more than twice a week in soccer. The wear and tear isn't nearly as bad in the NBA.
...is that the players don't wear helmets or hats. Consequently, these guys all look like they spend about 15 hours per day perfecting their haircuts.
Compare that to American "throwball", hockey, rugby or even baseball...totally messed up coifs with sweat (and sometimes blood) dripping down their faces. Soccer is a decent sport but the players seem incapable of not looking like overpaid pussies.
but Barca's defense and even midfield (feels weird to write this) have been subpar this year, hardly the star power we expect from one of the perennial top 3 clubs in the world.
Since Puyol retired, they have remained great and been able to cover up a lot of defensive deficiency with possession and some of the greateast midfield play the game has ever seen (Xavi - Iniesta), but without the former and father time catching up to the latter, Barca has some major reloading to do.
Best front 3 in the world, no doubt, but without more class behind them, it will be like watching Rich Rod's UM teams beating Indiana 63-60, but unable to compete against balanced teams.
IMHO, Barca needs a defensive rock like Puyol at center back and some new blood in midfield if they want to be more consistent and compete for the Champions League and La Liga next year.
I thought Dani Alves was a very pedestrian player for Barca in years past, but his toughness and bullheaded nature was clearly missed this year. I was clearly wrong about his value. Barca needs a few bulldogs and ball hawks to get their swag back.
Agree with you there. I thought Iniesta had a poor game yesterday. He had several giveaways on simple passes.
I like Umtiti but he never gets involved in the attack, just not that type of player. Pique is obviously world class but no one on this squad resembles a Puyol.
April 24th, 2017 at 11:24 PM ^
but has had a subpar year by his standards. I expect him to return to form by next year. But Barca needs some more toughness in the back. I love their system and style, but it requires great talent and flow to pull off and both were lacking in the back this year.
The best Clásico in years, it had everything a neutral could ask for: incredible goals, a red card, last minute winner, Messi's 500th goal and that celebration, just wow. La Liga is now wide open too
Ramos red shifted the game. It was reckless but with minimal contact, its a yellow. If we start to hand out cards for "intent" players would be getting reds left and right.
Unfortunate that Messi got his 500th in this game but defense has always been this team's weakness. Hoping this gives them a kick in the butt for the remaining 6/7 games in the schedule.
#HalaMadrid
April 24th, 2017 at 11:16 PM ^
April 24th, 2017 at 11:39 PM ^
Having the privedelge of running at Sergi Roberto certainly contributed to Marcelo's big day.
Yup good point. Sergi shouldn't be on D.
We'll see if Arsene Wenger breaks out the cheque book to lift an up-and-comer from either of these scrappy teams and bring them to the big show like he did Alexis and Ozil.
First off, Wenger likely will be enjoying his retirement (voluntary or forced) at this time next year! Sadly, the man is the Red Berenson of world soccer, having enjoyed a good run on top but now watching his talent laden team fall deeper into the EPL standings with each passing year. Forget Champions League, better try to make do with the FA Cup (good win over City but Chelsea will be a tough game).
Big test for Arsenal on Wednesday against borderline relegation survivor Leicester.
Arsenal is such a big club that the Premier League has begun to bore them this year, a trivial obstacle in the way of their FA Cup glory. Stan Kroenke will certainly make a slam dunk hire to keep this all star squad grounded.
But really, they usually get up for Lestah, and nothing gets the Arsenal bandwagon revving up like a successful FA Cup match.
Messi played like he had something to prove (and did).
Great goal keeping on both sides as pointed out.
Really enjoyed that match.
Looking forward to Man City v Man Utd Thursday.
Real looked its best on the counter attack with Ronaldo, Rodriguez, and Asensio...So much speed and creativity! Bale has got to be transfer bait at this point.
Going from El Clasico to Man Utd / Man City this year is like going from UM/OSU to, I dunno, Iowa/Minnesota. Esp w Zlatan out. Maybe if you'd have said Bayern / Dortmund in the semis of their cup, that would be more like it.
But what I think is fascinating about Utd this year is -- they can really screw whomever comes in 4th in the Prem. Just like Chelsea did to Spurs a few years ago (when Freidel was in goal). If Utd does not finish top 4, but does win Europa, then they get an auto-bid to UCL next year, and that means Prem's #4 is not in UCL but in Europa.
Puts more pressure on City to finish top 3 -- or take out about three or four of Utd's players and prevent them from winning Europa. I kid of course.
A few thougths:
1) Both Messi's goals were pure class, but his game winning celebration will be etched in the history books. That man is a nightmare, "the man who knocks", to this Madrid organization. It must have been very humbling for them collectively to see him stand there like that.
2) Goal tending was incredible. What a joy to watch.
3) Ramos is an inigma. He is such an incredible player who makes so many crucial plays for his team, yet he is prone to such idiocy it boggles the mind.
April 24th, 2017 at 11:34 PM ^
Messi is a great of this era, but let's not crown him greatest of all time.
Maradona in his prime for a 3 year span was better than any player that ever walked the planet.
The sustained success of Pele at the international level has never been matched.
How many international trophies does Messi have with a pretty stacked Argentina squad again? Exactly none.
While he is my favorite player right now, I also realize that he is a product of a Barca system built to exploit his very talents. Would Messi be this great playing in the German or British Leagues, without the greatest midfield in history possessing the ball for 70% of matches and feeding him the ball over the past decade?
Messi is an incredible talent, clearly generational, but a great deal of his club success is Xavi and Iniesta ( two generational talents in their own right that won 2 Euro cups and a world cup with Spain), as well as a Barca system under which Messi grew up.
Cristiano Ronaldo won the Euro Cup with Portugal, Messi can't get past Chile in the Copa America with Argentina. Not saying one is better than the other, but lets be real here about how successful Messi might be in another situation, whereas we have seen Ronaldo successful in The Premeir League, with his national team and obviously with Real Madrid.
I wont make a case that Messi is the greatest ever. I don't know enough to say, and frankly, I think having that conversation takes away from just marveling at how good he is. (I also think comparing him and Ronaldo takes away from appreciating how good they BOTH are. We live in a fucking golden age of soccer right now)
But I wil say that international soccer is the poorest metric for footballers.
Higuain bottled 4 or 5 golden opportunities against Germany AND Chile. If any of those 4 or 5 chances had been put away by a competent footballer, then we'd be having a very different discussion. Or if he had chosen Spain over Argentina.....
but just saying "Messi is the best player in history" doesn't make it so.Barca and Messi are actually my favorite team and player, so I'm pretty biased, but I still think it's an impossible argument to win.
Xavi and Iniesta - his midfield, finished 2nd and 3rd in multiple years (even 1 year when Messi won it) for the player of the year. Having those two behind you, feeding you the ball, obviously changes the equatio.
I lost count but I think Ronaldo has as many Balon d' Oro's / player of the year awards as Messi? To say Messi is on athother planet is misleading - and this coming from a guy that lived in Barcelona for 3 years, can't stand Real Madrid, and thinks Ronaldo is a narcissistic clown/douche.
I love Messi and think it's fair to call him the most accomplished club footballer in history (even though Cristiano has more Champs League goals). Still I think we often get caught up in the moment and the debate for greatest footballer ever is very different than best right now or over the past decade.
Also, those saying it is unfair to judge Messi based on international football championships have a point - but based on his won performance in international play (which has overall been very pedestrian when compared to his Barca play) is a fair critique. Meanwhile, his teammates (Xavi, Iniesta) were killing it for Spain. Essentially, we get to see Messi essentially in two competitive settings and it is fair to judge him on both.
1) with Barca in a system built around him, a place where he grew up, and in a league where that style of play is effective.
2) In international play, where he plays with a national team of uber talented players but in an often disjointed system without the scheme or players to highlight his greatness - as is the case with most national teams (except of course the Germans who always seem to have their shit together)
Brazil's Ronaldo was as good as any player during his peak - Two World Cups, 3 player of the year awards, champs league victories.
Watch tape of Maradona mid 1980's - guy was unstoppable, and again won at the international level.
Pele's resume is irreproachable.
Cruyff and Beckenbauer were legendary performers at both club and international level.
And a guy who almost nobody talks about in this discussion because he wasn't a striker or volume goal scorer - Zenidine Zidane. Won everywhere including some of the best World Cup and Euro Cup performances we have seen in our lifetimes.
So to me, personally, Messi is the my favorite player and the best I have witnessed - but when being objective I know this is just my opinion.
April 25th, 2017 at 10:16 AM ^
April 25th, 2017 at 11:33 AM ^
April 25th, 2017 at 12:19 PM ^
He is definitely the best in my mind, and definitely in my heart, but I totally understand the contrarian point of view and respect it. I also value midfield play more than many others who really like to emphasize strikers and finishers. This is why grudgingly say that if I had to start a World Cup team with talent everywhere (like a Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France, etc) type blue blood team would have, and could add just one player in history to engineer a championship, I would have to go with Zidane.
Zidane just made everyboy else so much better and any team he was ever on gelled, because he was a great defending and attacking midfielder. He alone could seamlessly create the transition from defense to offense that is so hard for entire teams to conjure up.
After that I would go with Brazilian Ronaldo because he was just so dominant - that even late career fat-Ronaldo - was able to dominate a World Cup. He was a freak of nature.
And being completely objective, while it was a small window, that 3 year run Maradona had in the mid 80's is still the greatest I have ever witnessed...watch tape, the guy was magical....like Messi, but a bit more physical with contact and deeper range on his strikes.
That said, Messi is the greatest club footballer over an extended period of time that I have ever witnessed, with Christiano being a not too distant second.
I also liked Totti, but if we mention him we must bring up Pirlo- who I often considered the closest thing to Zidane.
I see Zidane as Lebron (all around greatness), Messi as Kobe, and Maradona (during that 4 year span) as Jordan. Messi is right there, but Diego was just a bit more powerful and in an era when defenders could get away with more physical play.
I think the golden age began in the late 90's with those stacked Italy and Brazil teams, followed by those French teams, and I hope it continues - but besides Neymar I don't see anymore phenoms on the horizon. But of course, where and when the next 16 year old will be the become his generation's Messi. As you said, we never thought we'd see another Maradona.
That is all...