OT- The dirt sandwich of youth basketball
This is half rant and half question...
Last night my son's basketball team played at a tournament held by a local school. During the game, our team played them extremely close for the first half and was down 27-24 thanks to a late 3pt bucket or it would have been tied.
Second half the home team came out and took control, getting up by 17 with 3 min to go. Our coach pulls most of his starters and their coach then starts yelling at his kids for "get after it", meaning they need to run up the score.
After hearing this, our coach pulls the kids back into a standard 2-3 zone inside the arc. They will not go out and the other team stalls with the ball. Everything is fine so far, it's basketball. Here's where it starts to get ugly...
Their fans start yelling about it and their kids start to taunt our players. Their coach even comments to ours that the coach should, "Take his beating like a man." The ref calls timeout and brings the two coaches together for a talk.
After the timeout, their coach turns into a cheerleader waving his arms and trying to incite the crowd who gleefully chimes in. The players are still taunting on the court too. My son is new to this school (christian school), so he didn't do what the situation really demanded but I could tell he was coming close.
After the game, one of their parents came up to me since I was sitting on their side of the gym to tape. She apologized to me for the lack of class that the coaches and players had shown. Her son had recently started at the school and they were disgusted with the lack of class shown in all sports and would be transferring to a Catholic school next year.
She then proceeds to tell me how things work at this school. The 7th grade team we played was actually all kids that should be in 8th grade, except for the point guard who should have been in ninth grade. She said that parents who want their kids to excel at sports hold their kids back in kindergarden and a few hold them back in 5th grade too. The 8th and 9th grade basketball team starters are all kids held back 2 years.
She confirmed the rumor that had always circulated about the kids being held back.
My question is how common is this practice? It's new to me. I grew up near Berwick HS and it was a not well kept secret that they recruited kids because the head coach could get jobs for parents at the local power plant. I had never heard of intentionally holding kids back just for athletics before. Wouldn't this hurt them as far as college recruiting since they would be 20yo freshman?
I've not heard of that, but that's why some non-school affiliated leagues are a good idea. They go by age, not grade.
In reality, a small percentage of these kids will even get sniffed by colleges. Furthermore, I feel like college recruiters recruit for potential as much as anything else, and age doesn't really factor into that.
In my opinion, any parent putting athletics over academics is doing their kid a disservice considering the chances of him making a living, or even paying for college through sports. Your son can laugh at these losers all the way to the bank.
has a group that plays all of their kids down by 2 years (football goes by weight not age) so that 10 year olds are playing 8 year olds, 12 year olds play 10 year olds etc.
So they win all of the championships in the smaller leagues (Fly, Mighty Might, Pee Wee) but the midget gets creamed because they are all playing down.
All their kids actually LOSE 2 years of experience because they are starting later (10 instead of 8).
But this is a PIAA school-sanctioned league. That's why I was so surprised by it.
After I thought about it for a while, they only have one kid who is a D-1 scholarship athlete that I'm aware of. He's the kicker for Pitt. They do win lots of District Titles and and occasional State Championship, but it seems like success is limited to HS. I wonder if this is a new phenomenon at this school?
Sad commentary on the other coach.
I am not sure what your point was in the following quote. What did the situation demand?
"My son is new to this school (christian school), so he didn't do what the situation really demanded but I could tell he was coming close."
In baseball it's called chin music and hockey has an "enforcer". Every sport has their equivalent where bad sportsmanship is handled on the field. In football when a team is winning by 14 with 30 seconds to go and trying to score a TD from the 2 it's called cheap shots.
Losing in and of itself is not a bad thing. As a baseball coach I've always thought that the kids can sometimes learn more from a loss than a win. I even commented a few times during basketball season that a loss would be good for our team.
Hard fouls? Flagrant?
You are kind of vague. Did you think the situation demanded your son hit someone?
I played soccer all throughout my life and in high school there are some kids who are cheap and some coaches and teams are worse than others.
We once played a team up in Allen Park who had the ref be one of their brothers and he literally would not call a foul on them but would call everything on us. At half-time our coach said "screw this someone is going to get hurt" and we left and said "We'll take a forfeit". Which was fine by my coach because he was our towns head ref and was kind of a big deal in the Michigan soccer reffing community (state-wise).
With that being said you also have to watch out whenever you play these kids especially because sometimes things can get out of hand quite quickly. Another time we were up in Detroit playing this team and the other team was really cheap and eventually got one of their kids thrown out of the game (red carded). His dad or someone came onto the field and jumped the ref and we all stepped in and said WTF man. The guy said that he was coming back with a gun.
It just goes to show you that some people are just crazy and if these "parents" are telling these kids to play dirty or to run up the score who knows what else they will do.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:49 AM ^
Never. But, he's watched and played enough sports to know the "unwritten code".
He even mentioned it on the way home after the game, but his coach takes very seriously the fact that it is a christian school and win or lose they will do it with class. If he were still in the public school I'm sure there would have been hard fouls and ejections.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:06 AM ^
"If he were still in the public school I'm sure there would have been hard fouls and ejections."
As someone that attended public schools which provided great coaches that stressed winning and losing with class I take offense to this statement.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:21 AM ^
I don't think he's saying all public schools, just if the roles had been reversed with these particular schools and his son were playing for the public school that was being taunted, there would have been some form of retaliation. Of course, there are tons of good public schools out there that win and lose with class and good sportsmanship. I went to a parochial school and played sports against public schools that respected us and exhibited good sportsmanship. This is why hypotheticals are bad...especially when vaguely communicated.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:25 AM ^
Didn't you know only teams full of Christian athletes coached by Christian coaches know how to win/lose with humility and class? Those gosh darn public school leagues are filled with mercenaries and cheap shot artists just trying to demoralize or injure their opponents...
I thought that was common knowledge!
March 10th, 2010 at 11:31 AM ^
I did mean his old school or the school he played last night.
Wasn't meaning to bash ALL public schools and I did find myself defending public schools to one parent in the hallway after that display. I told her that it isn't public schools that are the problem, it's SOME of the PEOPLE in SOME of the public schools and you can find those people anywhere.
March 10th, 2010 at 12:21 PM ^
including in Christian schools.
I am not sure what your point was in the following quote. What did the situation demand?Sounds to me like it demanded "aggressive man-to-man defense" followed by a tomahawk chop to the face for any player on the other team who attempted a shot. Hey, you want to play the game, then play the game and take your lumps. It takes a certain amount of class not to sink to the other team's level, though. But it's obviously tempting.
Clearly these parents don't really have thier kids best interests at heart or don't know what is right. I am never one for running up the score, I haven't ever liked it. I don't see how beating on kids younger than you is really that big of a victory. I have my kids playing in sports for the fun and social aspects of it (they are pretty young still). I really don't expect them to be all stars, that is too much to put on thier shoulders.
take a kindergarten redshirt for the jv team
This fat unathletic kid did that and was held back in 8 grade just so he could make the freshman basketball team. That kid and his dad are in denial. He didnt even play much this. Anyways that practive happens alot but most kids arent good enough to do anything special.
Just parents in denial
There was a kid in my high school who was held back in 8th grade solely for basketball reasons. He ended up walking on at Purdue so maybe it helped. That's the only experience I have with it but my friend at school says that in Oklahoma where he is from, it is very common for people to do that for football. We are in the same grade and he is a 1 1/2 older than me. That doesn't matter much when you are in your 20's but a 14 yr old over a 12 yr old or an 18 yr old over a 16 yr old is huge.
got "held" back and was a year older than most kids in his grade.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:26 AM ^
I was going to mention him as well. According to wikipedia, he started kindergarten old (6 y.o.) and went through sixth grade twice as well.
It happens all the time. Tate Forcier should really be class of 2008 and a sophomore now (his birthday is August 7, 1990, same as Sidney Crosby, incidentally), but he either started late or went through a grade twice, so he ended up a year behind.
What if you are legitimately on the cut-off. In Michigan I think that it's in November and since my birthday is the 17th my parents were given the choice in pre-school if they wanted me to stay with my friends who were all younger or to go ahead to the older grade.
Would this also be "unfair" since I've always been about a year ahead of everyone because then it would also be very unfair for me to go a year older and to play with all of the kids who were a year older than me.
I think starting school is very different from holding a kid back once he is already in school for non-academic reasons
March 10th, 2010 at 10:02 AM ^
I'm just saying that someone can be a year older than everyone else (like me) and have it not done for a "competitive" advantage.
Like I said I think that parents who do that shit for sports in like elementary school are despicable.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:04 AM ^
The Malcolm Gladwell book "Outliers" touches on this kind of thing in a positive way - the advantage in age is a HUGE thing when kids are younger - the big example he uses is Junior hockey players in Canada, a vast majority of them are born in January - March, with almost no one in December.
Hockey's cutoff date in Canada is Jan 1, so kids born in early January are almost a year older than kids born in December, so the Tryouts for say "94's" would pit kids born in January 94 against kids born in December 94, who are almost a year younger. Yeah, doesn't matter as much when you're older, but a 7 year old vs. a 6 year old can be a big deal even in terms of size and motor skills.
RE: Bouje - That's Gladwell's point, that age is a HUGE advantage in youth sports, often due to no fault of the child - its their birthday coupled with the league/region/whatever cut off date.
That said, these parents are just short-changing their kids. At least the one parent had it right - that it was classless and that they are teaching their kids the wrong thing.
Good luck in the future...
March 10th, 2010 at 10:08 AM ^
Since I was already a smaller tiny kid who wasn't as big as other kids. I couldn't imagine being with kids a year older than me.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:46 AM ^
To expand on the Gladwell point, it also has to do with the fact that in Canada, kids are "picked" for future stardom starting around age 6 or 7, and, thus, get access to better coaching and more experience playing on travelling teams and the like, and there is a cumulative effect over, say, 10 years once they're 16 years old or so. He started studying this when he was at a game of 17 year olds and realized every player was born in the first 3 months of the year.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:52 AM ^
Exactly. Even in America we have Mite tryouts for 5-6 year olds, and they're put onto A or B teams then. The "A" kids get better coaching, and this manifests itself every year.
I'd really recommend the book
March 10th, 2010 at 12:07 PM ^
After reading "Outliers", my wife started planning on having our next child as early in January as possible. Atta girl!
March 10th, 2010 at 10:08 AM ^
The Clausen parents held all of their kids back two years, to gain an advantage in sports. Jimmah was 20 as a freshman.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:09 AM ^
And we see how much that helped.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:13 AM ^
I'm surprised that we don't have quarterbacks taking a year off between high school and college to work on their skills with a paid coach.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:22 AM ^
That is what the redshirt is for. Practicing everyday with a team probably trumps a guru. I think your idea would work better if there were a football prep school, and you could have an entire team practicing and playing, and then it would only be attractive to kids who did not get a schollie coming out of HS
March 10th, 2010 at 10:59 AM ^
isn't this the essence of a redshirt?
EDIT: damnit Gordie, you punked me.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:23 AM ^
If people want to give their kids a competitive advantage in sports, holding kids back in school is the wrong way to go.
You want to put your kids in a situation to compete against the best with good coaching. Dominating other young players that are physically inferior is not the way to develop athletes.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:54 AM ^
The MHSAA has rules that remove the advantage of this practice. From mhsaa.com:
To participate in MHSAA tournament sponsored sports a student must be under 19 years of age except that a student who turns 19 on or after Sept. 1 of a current school year is eligible for the balance of that school year.This is essentially in line with the state of Michigan practices for enrollment in kindergarten. So if you hold a kid back for pure sports reasons, it means that he cannot compete for his high school in his senior season. I don't know how that affects AAU and other non-MHSAA affiliated sports teams. I will say this: If you are holding back your kid for sports reasons, the only reason he is "good" then, is usually a man-against-boys effect that will not persist to the next level. [I guess I just re-stated what FryGoBlue3 said...but it still is true. +1 Fry.]
March 10th, 2010 at 11:14 AM ^
But there are a few schools requesting that the PIAA review this.
[quote]AGE
You may not have reached your 19th birthday by June 30 immediately preceding the school year (15th birthday where interscholastic competition is limited to grades 7 and 8; 16th birthday where limited to grades 7 through 9).[/quote]
So, a 16yo can play on a 7th-9th tournament and a 15yo can play on a 7th-8th team
[quote]PERIOD OF TIME AFTER EIGHTH GRADE, PARTICIPATION, AND GRADE REPETITION
1. You will lose your eligibility when you have reached the end of your fourth consecutive year beyond the eighth grade. If you repeat a grade after eighth, you will be ineligible as a senior.
2. You may participate in a maximum of six seasons in each sport during grades seven through twelve, a maximum of four seasons in each sport during grades nine through twelve, and a maximum of three seasons in each sport during grades seven through nine.
3. You may participate in only one season in each sport during each school year.[/quote]
This has changed since I was in HS. At the time you had 4 years of varsity eligibility regardless of when. We regularly had 8th graders wrestle varsity in the ligher weight classes, but they lost their senior year.
It seems that this school is in line with the letter rather than the spirit of the rules.
I also agree with the earlier comments about "playing up" makes you better.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:01 AM ^
In Michigan, a parent can't "hold back" a kid just for the hell of it.
There has to be documented proof that the kid is ACADEMICALY deficiant in reading and math. Basically the kid has to have a documented learning disabilty in order for the school to allow him/her to repeat a grade.
Wanting your kid to dominate youth football isn't a valid reason :)
March 10th, 2010 at 11:30 AM ^
or ACADEMICALLY DEFICIENT in spelling
March 10th, 2010 at 11:25 AM ^
http://www.slate.com/id/2188866/
It's a baseball thing too (not holding back, but how age/dob matters). I have an August birthday, but "played up" in order to play with friends in the same grade. Little did I know this would cost me a chance to be Justin Verlander.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:34 AM ^
My parents sent me to two years of pre-school (one was a typical pre-school, the other a "pre-kindergarten") since my birthday is July 5 simply for maturity/academic reasons. They wanted to make sure I was ready for school. I've always been old for my grade, though there were plenty of us at my HS that were in the same boat. I even knew someone in my grade with a birthday at the beginning of June. Once I got to U-M, I realized this isn't as common in other parts of the country. Of course, I was never good at sports that required physical size (the football team didn't find need for 5'10", 130 lb skin and bones types, so I played golf and tennis), but I can see how this would be an advantage for some.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:48 AM ^
At the school my kids go to they play up in basketball. For instance, this year my daughter is in 3rd grade and they play in 2 leagues one is a 3rd grade league and one is a 4th grade league. This is their 3rd year playing as well. Guess which league they won the regular season in? The 4th grade league, they went undefeated, mostly due to playing up every year, playing summer league and going to summer camp. But boy did they take their lumps in 1st grade and even last year in 2nd grade.
They could only do one league playoff for some odd reason so they're doing the 4th grade. All they have to win is 2 more games and they'll be in the championship.
March 10th, 2010 at 12:15 PM ^
If you watch the documentary on their football team this is a pretty common practice there. I personally think that parents put way too much priority on youth sports. Most times you really don't know what a kid can do until he gets to High School. I have three kids and my oldest, who is nine, plays 4 different sports and has played at least 6 in organized leagues. He very successful in swimming (going to swim in the state meet this weekend) and also a very solid athelete in all of the other sports. My wife and I really believe in allowing him to decide what he wants to play and to allow him to push himself as far as he wants to go. I am astonished when talking with other parents who chastise my wife and I for not pushing him into one of the sports so he could really be a "superstar". I don't get this fascination with having a child who is a superstar at age 10. In what world does that equate to success in life or in a lesser extent a superstar in college. It is a joke what some are willing to achieve this super stardom of little league sports.
March 10th, 2010 at 12:22 PM ^
because they sucked and didn't accomplish their goals.
Sad but true.
What a lack of class. Feel bad for you and your son.