OT-In defense of Joe D

Submitted by ijohnb on

It was meant to be.  It was the right move.  It was the only move.  The stars had alligned perfectly.  We were not going to have to let go of Trey.  He was still going to be able to be our guy.  And then David Stern read the name of some guy named Pope and anger, disbelief, and frustration all came together to produce such declarations as "I am never going to watch the Pistons again."  These reactions were natural.  Visions of Trey nailing a 3 to cement a win with the crowd going crazy as the Palace were strong visions in deed, strong enough to turn a pick that was questionable at best into a pick that made perfect sense.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The problem is that the pick never really made sense.  Professional sports is a business, investments are made.  Brandon Knight was an investment.  Perhaps he is not a point guard in the John Stockton sense, but he is quite a hike from two guard, and while Brandon Knight has certainly been up and down, frequently down, through his second year, I can't say that there is enough of a sample size at this point to simply cash in those chips and start from scratch at a position that Joe checked off his list of needs when he drafted Knight just two season ago.  Reports of Knight being "terrible" and other such descriptions are overblown.  Softomore slumps are not the exception but the norm in the NBA, Knights was a little more perceptible than most, but to label Knight as one of the primary problems with the Pistons roster is absurd.  In fact, to the contrary, the Pistons roster is littered with players that have proven that they are servicable at the point.  True, at the moment, both Calderon and Bynum are unsigned at this point (I believe), but there is no reason to believe that they won't resign if presented with offers.                                                                                                                                                                                                  Trey Burke is a special talent, but the Pistons are trying to build something.  I don't think a log jam at the point when other needs could easily be filled makes a whole lot of sense.  And while the product on the court is far from optimal at this point, there are the peices to make this team into something formidable in the short term, and like it or not, a wing/two with the ability to create his own shot is the glaring defeciency in the Pistons roster at this point.  Pope looks like he has this in spades, and if a talented two guard on the floor only means that I have to look at Rodney Stucky any less than I currently do it cannot be that bad of a thing.   Nobody wanted to let go of Trey Burke yet, and the sudden possibility that we would not have to made a bad fit look like a perfect fit, and lead many of us to a conclusion that anything else but Burke was objectively the wrong decision.  It may have been, only time will tell.  However, let's see how this kid looks before we write off the Pistons for ever.  There is the chance that the Pistons got the steal of the draft.  His very presence will certainly not stir up the images of glory to us as Trey would have, and the Palace will not enjoy the month of (articifical) sell-outs like Trey Burke would have.  But I am both a Pistons fan and a Michigan fan.  I am mostly a Michigan fan.  The Michigan fan in me hated the pick, but after considering the fact that the Pistons are not the extension of my favorite college team, it may just be that my maize colored glasses convincted me of something that was not in the cards from the get-go. 

G. Gulo of the Dale

June 28th, 2013 at 1:39 PM ^

This is the same guy who drafted Alex Acker and Sammy Mejia...

... at the end of the second round.

Seriously, though, I know that missing on prospects is frustrating, but it happens all of the time; it becomes a problem when you don't have any good picks to offset your bad ones.

Dumars has drafted 28 players and has as many good picks as bad.  You list seven "mistakes," but three of those guys don't seem to belong on the list.  Maxiel is nothing more than a rotation player, but he was drafted as the 26th pick.  The fact that he's playing at all distinguishes him from the few players drafted immediately in front of him and behind him.  I don't care for Stuckey, but he's hardly a bust, given that he was selected at 15.  Saying that Knight hasn't settled into the point guard position as a 19, 20, and 21 yrs. old is not equivalent to saying he was a bad pick.  White was obviously a bust; I hated the Daye pick, even at the time; and the Darko pick... [obvious is obvious--but everyone would have done it--blah, blah, blah].

It's just as easy, in contrast, to find good draft picks:  Okur (absolute steal at 37), Prince (great pick at 23), Amir Johnson (drafted at 56 and actually still in the league and  producing for the Raptors), Afflalo (27, perhaps stupidly given away), Jerebko (plateaued after injury but drafted in the middle of the second round); Monroe and Drummond (perhaps no-brainers, but others passed on Drummond).

Joe Dumars has made enough questionable decisions over the last five years to get himself fired.  I wouldn't mind him getting his walking papers.  You're in the right to dislike him.  I'm just not convinced that his drafting ranks all that highly on his list of sins. 

ijohnb

June 28th, 2013 at 10:39 AM ^

can't possibly make such a proclomation until you see what it is we drafted.  And do you really thing that Dumars went all lone ranger and yelled yee-haw while making a reckless pick with no insight or support from others in the organization.

jethro34

June 28th, 2013 at 10:38 AM ^

By smallest backcourt you mean kinda like the Clippers had with Paul and Chauncey? What's the worry, that every guard in the league would have posted them up all day? How often was that a problem for Trey? Seriously, Joe could have had Trey, Withey as the defensive big off the bench, and Deshaun Thomas as scoring punch off the bench and he ended up with a bag of nickels. There is no defense. Give it 5 years and try to defend it then.

TheLastHarbaugh

June 28th, 2013 at 12:42 PM ^

Chauncey is a fairly big guard. He's not Paul George or Kobe Bryant, but he easily has 30lbs on Brandon Knight.

It's also a fairly disingenuous comparison, seeing as Chauncey only played in 42 games for Clippers over 2 seasons. Hardly a decent sample size. Also those Clippers teams didn't win anything.

Come On Down

June 28th, 2013 at 10:39 AM ^

If this were an isolated move I might be inclined to agree with you. Joe D, however, has shown time and time again that he doesn't draft well, doesn't make good trades, and cannot hire good coaches. Therefore, why should be believe that this isn't one of a seemingly endless number of bad decisions on his part?

Come On Down

June 28th, 2013 at 11:21 AM ^

There's a difference between not being an all star and having little to no positive impact on the team that drafted you. You just named three good picks and I'll spot you one more in Mehmet Okur.

Now consider the wasted first round picks of Milicic, Daye, White (D.J. and Rodney), Stuckey, Afflalo, and Cleaves.

In addition, he somehow was under the impression that Kwame Brown, Allen Iverson, and Nazir Mohammad would be impactful additions to the roster.

I won't even get into his terrible coaching hires but I think it's obvious that all but Larry Brown have been epic failures.

 

TheLastHarbaugh

June 28th, 2013 at 12:50 PM ^

You can hate on Joe D for the Pistons' recent failures, but this reivisionist history is complete bullshit. Listening to some of you people you'd think Joe D had never put a winning team on the court. Calling him the Matt Millen of basketball like one dude said.

People are acting like he didn't construct a team from scratch who won an NBA title, appeared in back to back finals, and made 6 straight eastern conference finals.

If the Pistons don't make the playoffs this year he needs to get axed, but a lot of you have totally lost all sense of objectivity when it comes to Joe D.

snarling wolverine

June 28th, 2013 at 1:36 PM ^

How much of that was him, and how much of it was John Hammond?  There are a lot of people who believe Hammond was the brains behind the operation while Joe D was a figurehead to talk to the media.

Look at the moves Joe D has made since 2008, when Hammond left the franchise.  It's been pretty brutal since then.

 

 

OmarDontScare

June 28th, 2013 at 1:01 PM ^

Don't forget about quickly rejecting the Celtics offer of Rondo and Ray Allen for Hamilton, Stuckey and Prince in 2009. Understandable to review thoroughly and pass but reports out of Boston said Dumars didn't give it the time of day. Would have given the Pistons a ton of cap flexibility as well and we'd have a legit PG. The huge contracts dished out to Hamilton and Prince after the title window had clearly closed and both were close to washed up. Trading Billups for Iverson. Michael Curry, John Kuester, Lawrence Frank Destroying a ton of valuable cap space by signing Villanueva and Gordon to monster deals. Horrible. I can go on...

TheLastHarbaugh

June 28th, 2013 at 1:32 PM ^

People do realize we traded Billups for Allen Iverson's expiring contract, and not Allen Iverson, right? I mean, you can crush Dumars for what he did with that cap space, but it wasn't an inherently bad move. Chauncey also didn't want to be in Detroit anymore. He wanted to play for a contender, which by that point, the window had closed for that Pistons team.

Also just as a little exercise....

Here are 2 players' per 36 stats.....

Player A (24 years old):

21.7ppg 8.9rpg 2.4apg 1bpg .9spg .447%fg .345%3pt .838%ft

Player B (23 years old): 

17.6ppg 7.3rpg 1.9apg .9bpg .9spg .484%fg .250%3pt .781%ft

Which player would you have rather inked to a long term deal? Player A, right? He is clearly the better choice and put up superior stats to Player B in every single category except field goal percentage, but their TS% were equal at .529%. 

Now for the unveiling.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Player B is 2008-09 LaMarcus Aldridge.

Player A is 2008-09 Charlie Villanueva.

LOL, you are Joe Dumars.

snarling wolverine

June 28th, 2013 at 1:50 PM ^

Where do you get the idea that Billups didn't want to be in Detroit anymore?  The Pistons went 59-23 his last year here and went to the ECF for the sixth year in a row.  He'd just signed a huge extension.  I don't remember him ever being unhappy.  I think you're getting him mixed up with someone else.

I know Billups was traded for cap space, but I still think that was a foolish move.  He was the face of the franchise, extremely popular in town.  The Pistons destroyed their identity when they traded him.  They've never gotten it back.  If you're going to move a guy that popular, you'd better be really convinced that you're going to get a superstar in free agency.  I don't think Joe D was.

 

 

 

 

TheLastHarbaugh

June 28th, 2013 at 2:17 PM ^

He was starting to slip as a player in the post season as his body was breaking down, and the trade to Denver completely rejuvenated him.

The writing was on the wall for that team and everybody could sense it. Getting thoroughly demolished by a young Cavs team with LeBron put the Pistons on wobbly legs. Then the Celtics making their move to form the Big 3 basically was the knockout blow. 

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/09/myth-trading-chauncey-billups-for-allen-iverson-didnt-make-any-sense/

M-Wolverine

June 28th, 2013 at 3:43 PM ^

Who said Billups wanted to leave?  He had just resigned. If he wanted to leave, he'd have signed the contract.

And the Billups trade can be judged on what you did with it. Because you're right, he didn't trade Chauncey for Iverson. He traded him for Charlie V. and Ben Gordon. Which was stupid the day he did it, and got us nothing but salary cap hell. And he did it the first day of free agency!  Basically admitting "I can't do shit with this money, so here, at least I spent it."  I don't want a GM who quits even before trying and failing.

TheLastHarbaugh

June 28th, 2013 at 10:56 PM ^

I agree that Ben Gordon was a terrible signing at the time and now. However, I understand what Joe Dumars was trying to do.

Chauncey had regressed quite a bit in the playoffs the previous 2 seasons, and looked basically shot relative to what he once was by the end of their last playoff run. So Joe D decided that with everyone pushing for the "Summer of LeBron" he would cash in his chips a year early, and be the biggest free agency player in 09. So he made the deal for AI's expiring contract.

His plan was to have Stuckey be Chauncey, keeping Rip at the 2, bringing in Ben Gordon off the bench to be Microwave 2.0. Then keep Tay at the 3, Sheed at the 4, bringing in Charlie V to be his eventual replacement. Then developing a stable of cheap defensive big guys to try to replace what Ben did by committee.

So when you break things down instead of just siding with the "RABBLE RABBLE!" crowd, pretending that history and context don't exist, you can at least see the vision he had. Even if it ended up being a complete and total failure.

Also, just as an aside...

I would like for you to explain to me based on the available evidence why sigining Charlie V was a terrible decision?

IMO, it was a sound decision based on all of the information at the time.

This revisionist history is nonsense.

I've already broken it down before elsewhere on this thread but...

Here are 2 players' per 36 stats.....

Player A (24 years old):

21.7ppg 8.9rpg 2.4apg 1bpg .9spg .447%fg .345%3pt .838%ft

Player B (23 years old): 

17.6ppg 7.3rpg 1.9apg .9bpg .9spg .484%fg .250%3pt .781%ft

Which player would you have rather inked to a long term deal? Player A, right? He is clearly the better choice and put up superior stats to Player B in every single category except field goal percentage, but their TS% were equal at .529%. 

Now for the unveiling.....

 

 

Player B is 2008-09 LaMarcus Aldridge.

Player A is 2008-09 Charlie Villanueva.

 

We can even add a 3rd player.

 

Player C: 

18.5ppg 7.8rpg 1.8apg 1.2bpg 1.2spg .469%fg .360%3pt .734%ft

Player C is Rasheed Wallace's per 36 during his best season in the NBA.  

M-Wolverine

June 29th, 2013 at 1:20 AM ^

Because Rasheed never played with Ben and Charlie. They let him go after the 2008-2009 season. Why was signing Charlie V. a terrible decision? Because even though it wasn't a horrible contract it was still far more than anyone would pay. And still an anchor on the team. That, and, you know, he sucks. All you've illustrated is why per 36 is a stupid stat. That's not how playing works, just extrapolating the math to the minutes. Just like Drummond isn't going to be a 50-30 guy or whatever ridiculous numbers it goes to when you draw them out. You have to use your mind and eyes when watching a player, and not just massaged stats. Because you know what WAS different between those two players, that was a better sign? The fact that the Buck let him go for NOTHING and didn't feel bad about it, and Aldridge has only played for one team. So if your goal was to illustrate stats can be wrong at times, you did succeed. And maybe helped show how much talent Rasheed wasted if he had played up to his talents regularly rather than just when he wanted to.

TheLastHarbaugh

June 29th, 2013 at 2:07 AM ^

I didn't mean to say Rasheed played with Ben and Charlie. I said Charlie was brought in to replace Rasheed. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, or botched the wording.

That was the plan though, quite obviously.

I don't think you know much about per 36 as evideced by your misconceptions.

Generally, the more minutes a player plays, the better their stats are, not worse, so it's usually a great indicator of how well a player will play with more minutes. 

Besides, it's not like Charlie V was only playing 8 minutes a game. He played 26. 

Drummond's per 36 stats are 13 and 13. Don't blow things out of proportion to suit your argument.

The Bucks haven't exactly been a model organization, so judging things based off of their decisions isn't necessarily wise. That and they had just brought in Scott Skiles, a defensive minded coach, and Charlie V's defensive deficiencies didn't jive with his system. Not to mention a new GM in John Hammond,who didn't draft Charlie V and had his own vision of where he wanted to take the team.

M-Wolverine

June 30th, 2013 at 12:04 AM ^

"His plan was to have Stuckey be Chauncey, keeping Rip at the 2, bringing in Ben Gordon off the bench to be Microwave 2.0. Then keep Tay at the 3, Sheed at the 4, bringing in Charlie V to be his eventual replacement. " Seems clear that you said Gordon and Sheed were to be on the team at the same time, and Charlie was coming in to be his "eventual" not immediate replacement. So I'm not sure how we can take your assesment of his plan seriously when you had a major part of it wrong. But don't flip flop to suit your argument.

TheLastHarbaugh

June 28th, 2013 at 12:32 PM ^

Joe Dumars actually has one of the best track records in the NBA when it comes to the draft.

Mehmet Okur, Carlos Delfino, Tayshaun Prince, Amir Johnson, Arron Afflalo, Jason Maxiell, and Kyle Singler are all late picks that Joe D has hit on. Unfortunately not all of those guys have had their best success with the Pistons but they have at the very least all been solid rotational players. 

Not to mention Drummond, Monroe, and Knight.

The only truly sunk cost as far as draft picks was Darko. Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White were busts, but at least Joe was able to flip them for useful pieces. 

Most people think "Darko" while completely ignoring the entirety of Joe's draft history, which is actually quite good.

West German Judge

June 28th, 2013 at 1:50 PM ^

My issue with Maxiell was that while yes, he did hit on the pick, he reached so damn much for him.  He was graded as a mid second  round talent and we took him about twenty spots too early at 26th.  We could have taken David Lee at 26 and done all sorts of maneuvering (buying a pick, swapping picks, trading a future 2nd rounder) to get back into the middle of the second round to acquire Maxiell, anyway.
He also reached on Rodney Stuckey and Austin Daye while telegraphing both selections.  He  took Walter Sharpe when Mario Chalmers and DeAndre Jordan were available and Sharpe wasn't even projected to be drafted!

boliver46

June 28th, 2013 at 10:40 AM ^

showed interest in Knight as trade bait.  Joe should have parlayed Knight into an additional draft pick or even better - the Wing player we need instead of yet another SG.

Side note: Good bye Stuckey.

hailhail97

June 28th, 2013 at 10:41 AM ^

"Investment" is not a good enough reason.

Being invested in a player is the same reason Matt Millen chose to stick with Joey Harrington over taking Drew Brees.

thisisme08

June 28th, 2013 at 11:51 AM ^

Couldnt agree more;

"investment" doesnt mean jack in the NBA, did you not hear everyone ripping on Austin Rivers (2012 pick) and wondering if NO should just dump him?

The NBA is a lot more of a "what have you done for me lately" league than any other professional league so you better put up or your gone.