If they're not going to enlarge the circle of change the letter of the law regarded charge/blocks, then the least I can hope for is more no calls.
no, YOU'RE off topic
If they're not going to enlarge the circle of change the letter of the law regarded charge/blocks, then the least I can hope for is more no calls.
I'm for going in the exact opposite direction. Without the charge, an offensive player can just use his shoulders to clear space as much as he wants -- this is already too prevalent in basketball. This isn't football. It should be an advantage to be tall, quick, long and fast. It shouldn't be an advantage to weigh 300 pounds. Offenses should be based around movement and passing, not putting your shoulder into the defender and shoving them under the basket. Rules have been changed over the years to make the game faster-paced. Each change seems to make it harder to defend. They need to go the opposite direction and force teams to play team-oriented ball instead of making it a game of one-on-one skills.
This idea is as bad as getting rid of kickoffs in football.
Can we get rid if the false start too? I mean how do you not know the player isn't just starting his motion really fast?
it is a frustrating part of the game, but it is a rule that exists that has evolved, like steps before travelling and palming and screens. i just wish they would call it the same for every player in every game, but there are certain special players with certain coaches playing in certain arenas that get that call more often than others - prepare for breslin.
Its just a bang bang call. it will never be called perfect. So you will always have bad charge calls. Depending on your position on the court it can be really hard to call.
Call offensive push-offs and lowering the shoulder on drives to the hoop consistently and I'd be okay with voiding the rotational charge. As it is, the rules definitely favor the offense and I think making the changer you're advocating would just further tilt the balance in the offense's favor.
This is a good point and does need to be called more at times. I hate to say it but I see Burke use his off arm a lot but again its really hard to call unless you are right on top of it have a great view of it. He a fast and smart player. Very tough to call.
Not to mention in the post: defenders hold their position and get called for a hold, offensive players move defenders around and nothing. Now, as a once post player, I have no problem with it, but you take out the charge and you open a whole can of worms and questions about "can the defender do anything?"
Why does America hate defense so much? I can only guess that somewhere along the line defense stole America's girlfriend and America is still bitter about it.
Just call it right. If the defender is planted before the offensive player makes his move it is a charge. Any sliding is a block. Simple.
Is getting rid of "charge" and making it "player control". You can't just get rid of the whole concept. The defender has just as much right to the area as the offensive player. If you stop calling charges then you have to stop calling offensive players going into a guy who is jumping straight up and down.
I personally think there are too many blocking fouls in today's game. A defender moves his feet but an offensive player is just barrerling down the lane and suddenly it's a blocking foul. In my opinion, there should be more "play on" scenarios to help improve the flow of the game. They should also be better at calling it a block when a player is already in the air (it is supposed to be a block, but sometimes doesn't get called that way). If you question whether the player was in the air or not, I would say tie goes to the offensive guy. Nevertheless, as a previous poster said, there is something to be said for basketball intelligence and pulling up for a short jumper rather than taking it all the way to the rim, where a player has a right to his position and if he beats the offensive player there should have a foul called on the offensive player.
FWIW, "Player control foul" is its actual name. "Charge" is just the nickname for it. Referees still mostly follow that concept - that if a player has any opportunity to get out of the defender's path it's a charge, and if it's a bang-bang play it's a block.
That is all. Good point
The fact that you're a basketball official and you don't understand the intent of the blocking call is very disappointing to me.
"Great offensive plays are made going to the hoop to only have a defender slide over last second to take a charge because he was standing there a quarter of a second sooner then the offensive player who is taking the ball to the hoop and the play is wiped out in a car crash of players falling into the lane."
That is, by definition, blocking. Call it!!!! What's the problem???
I know the rule but refs will call that a charge call all the time. Its so bang bang. You make it sound so easy. Basketball is the hardest sport to officiate without question.
Basketball is the hardest sport to officiate without question.
Truth. I remember I had a big college club game - Ohio State actually, where I was the center official and had a block-charge call on my side of the lane. Right before the call, the lead official rotated so he also had the whistle. He froze (properly) and let me take the call. I called the charge. Afterwards he said he had the block.
We went back and looked at the tape and luckily I was right. Though, not so luckily - I had the play from start to finish, had the angle and made the proper call. He saw only the finish of the play after he rotated. To a layman, some might think that since the play was in the lane and closer to him that he should have made the call, but not so.
There's a lot more to officiating basketball than people realize!
Great post. This is the kind of things people will never see or understand what makes it so hard to officiate the sport. Having 3 officials covering a giant floor of 10 fast and athletic freaks with rotations to get right ect. People who hate of us I always encourage them to sign up and try it. Takes a ton of skill to do it.
I didn't intend to make it sound easy. I've played basketball for 30 years (insert -Herm comment here), so I understand the difficulty in making this call. I wasn't a fan of the radius surrounding the basket at first, but I've come to realize that it can help make the call a little easier for the official.
My comment was more from a perspective of amazement that you would want to do away with the charge call. You do understand what that would result in, don't you? If there was no possibility for a charging fould, people would drive to the basket with no regard for having a foul called against them. There would be no need to maintain control. Drive to the basket and if anyone gets in the way, run them over. No charging call. Move on.
Now all I am going to imagine when I watch high school basketball is a bunch of highly skilled MS Paint pros with grudges against charges calling the games.
LOL... but until the rule is changed or if ever I will be calling it as it is intended. I am not trying to make my own rules..lol
"Well now its a tool defensive players use to get turnovers and fouls on the opponent"
Sure. Isn't that what basketball is, though? Players try to jump into another player to draw a foul all the time, so drawing fouls was already a tool. Sort of like the dive in soccer, unfortunately. That's the most frustrating thing about basketball, for me.
We should also get rid of all fouls when there is less than 2 minutes remaining in the game. Teams just use them as an offensive tool in the hopes of winning games.
Any rule of the game becomes a tool that players/coaches use to their advantage. The nice thing about the charge is that it isn't that easy to pull off. It's a gamble.
Seriously. This is one thing that makes Beilein so slimy - he takes advantage of rules like crazy. Take the three-pointer for instance. For years he's been using it as a tool to score more points per basket than his opponent, allowing him to win games even when his team might have fewer made field goals. It's almost like a loophole he's trying to exploit for his team's own benefit. Get that shit out of basketball.
I definitely don't like the fact that intentionally taking penalties can be advantageous to a team. Of course I'm not saying I would agree with your sarcastically proposed rule, though. I guess it's just sort of inherent to certain sports.
I agree that there should be come harsher penalty for the intentional-but-not-intentional fouling at the end of a game. At the same time, 5 fouls and you're out in college, and 7 in a half already gets you free throws, so this is something that awards teams and players who stayed out of foul trouble up until that point. It's very hard to come back when your opponent is already in the double bonus when end-of-game fouling starts to happen, or if a couple of your top players have 4 fouls when this begins.
It's only advantageous if your opponent can't shoot free throws. IU hit something like 14 straight free throws at the end of the UM game so UM didn't gain an advantage by fouling.
Sure they gained an advantage. They prolonged the game, and gave themselves a chance, which is better than a sure loss.
If there wasn't a charge call then the offensive player will just drive into the lane, lower his shoulder and draw a foul. Or the offensive player will just knock everyone out of the way and get an easy bucket. The charge call protects the defensive player and if it was an automatic defensive call there would be way too many foul outs. You need to reward the defense for good defense.
If you take away charging fouls, I guess you would have to take away blocking fouls too. I like it!
As a football player who played basketball, I would be very much in favor of this as I always felt basketball was a bit too ticky-tack (and I usually fouled out of every game).
And if this happened, Mitch McGary would become an even bigger asset.
Im ok with this rule being changed, but only if they get rid of the rule where the offensive player goes out of his way to jump into the defender to draw a foul.
Also change the half to 21 minutes and make it 6 fouls in order to foul out.
I think both the charge and block calls need to go as they stand now. Taking a guys legs out shouldn't be allowed, but basketball is the only sport when a defender gets a foul for being in the offensive players way. Just man up and let the guys play.
Those two calls turn most pickup basketball games into a jerry springer drama fest. Ruining the game at the grass roots level and encouraging a culture of unnecessary drama.
Are people now trying to call charges in pickup games? I've never seen that, but I'm playing pretty exclusively in older games. I've seen it happen a few times, but it's always been met with laughter and a lot of "Charging? GTFUp."
If that's the case, the rule definitely needs to be adjusted.
That was a point I was going to make but figured people wouldn't agree. Everyone has been playing pick up basketball for years without charges and blocks and the games are played just fine imo.
So you're saying you want to turn it into streetball? Charges aren't called in pick up games because it makes you a pussy to call it, not because the foul doesn't exist. But a lot of other shit goes uncalled in pick up games for the same reason. I can't imagine that's really what you're advocating here.
I hope your commitment to making guys play defense means you don't call fouls for touching the fingers of a shooter on his follow through as 99 percent of refs are wont to do.
We've all seen what can happen when you make it nearly impossible for defensive backs to do their job. This is an insane idea.
I would like to see the possession arrow rule go bye bye. Go back to jump balls.
Also, the and-1 rule allowing a guy to take 4 steps in continuation has to go as well.
This I agree with wholeheartedly. The possession arrow is absurd. If referees can throw up a jump ball at the beginning of the game and OT, they can do it at other times.
The refs union might have negotiated a jump ball limit clause. Workmans comp restrictions are getting out of hand.
I know yesterday in the Indiana game there were 3 charges called in the first half that all were called on Indiana and were the most ridiculous calls I have ever seen. I think thats a huge problem for visiting teams.
Of course defenders use it as a tool to try and draw a foul. What's the matter with that? Rules are such that they will always be exploited and it's impossible to write them otherwise.
For my part I think it's silly that players exploit the out of bounds rule by bouncing the ball off an opponent's leg. But legislating that out of the game would create another tangled web of rules that would still be exploitable.
You can't just remove the charge, you'd have to rewrite the rule to prevent the situation of a ballcarrier barreling toward the hoop as hard as he can and throwing his shoulder into people. So it would still be exploitable. "Players would have to play proper defense" is idealistic nonsense.
In reference to using it as a tool. Because in a sense, it's very "Wisconsin Basketball-esque"; taking advantage of the way an official will call a very arbitrary play. I for one, hardly blame the players but the way officials have referee'd the call, but some of that does stem from the way players develop and learn to play to what the rules say and learn how to get said call.
I've already posted a few times but I think the main issue with the call now-a-days isn't about on-ball defense or already established defenders near the hoop; those are legitimate calls that reward good defense and regulate out of control offensive players. It's the slide-in/step-in done by the help defense that are most definitely not "set", while an offensive player has already established his attempt at getting to the hoop, and getting the official to call a charge. Its cheap.
I've already posted a few times but I think the main issue with the call now-a-days isn't about on-ball defense or already established defenders near the hoop;
But that will be an issue if we do like Shredder suggests and get rid of the charge.
There is no way to write rules, as long as a judgment call is involved by the refs, such that they're immune to being exploited by players in a way that fans sometimes find "unfair." And I'm sorry, but when a player has established his attempt at getting to the hoop, that shouldn't give him a free pass to get there. Defenders know they'll be called for a foul (and rightly so) if they try to reach over and attempt a block; that'll be a foul 98% of the time, and it should be. Right now it's sometimes called in favor of the offense and sometimes in favor of the defense, which IME makes it balanced and fair, even if we can dispute individual calls. It certainly shouldn't be, once you start towards the hoop, you're basically already there because the rules are written so the defense has no tools whatsoever to stop you.
I don't think he was seriously proposing to get rid of the charge. (If he was, I disagree.) Almost everything in the OP was about charges drawn by secondary help defenders, which is what everyone else criticizing how charging is called today is talking about.
Offensive players shouldn't get a free pass to the hoop, but defenders shouldn't get credit for falling down in front of offensive players with their arms at their sides, which is what a lot of charging calls are, thanks to Coach K.* What officials should do is pay more attention to the rule of verticality, ie, defensive players are entitled to go up straight to contest shots, but they shouldn't get credit for acting as human bowling pins. Emphasize defense that contests, rather than defense that tries to impede.
*The sad thing about Duke defensively is that they can be a great team to watch when they're concentrating on moving their feet to help and staying in front of dribble penetrators. But they ruin this defensive quality for me when the help defenders accentuate any and all contact. (Cue video of Paulus flopping).
I'm not sure where the issue is. If it's close, start calling blocks. The rule is in place so that the offensive player can't just ram into a defensive player. Most of playing defense is getting in the opponent's way so he can't get to the basket. If you take away the charge, you are taking away any possibility of down low support. Basically, if the offensive player can move to not make contact with the defense, but they choose not to, that should be a charge. If they leave there feet and someone slides over, that should be a block regardless of how long the defender is standing there. Maybe that's what should be changed. Instead of basing the call on whether the defensive player is set, base it on whether the offensive player has a chance to avoid the contact.
Why as a defender should I not be allowed to stand in a position without getting run over? I actually think they should call more charges, this way a player might have to develop a mid range jumper, instead of just dunks and 3 pt. shots.
Dunks and layups are just smart basketball. Their high efficient shots. Sliding in at the last possible moment, say .25 second while an offensive layer has alreayd committed to attacking the hoop, yes this can be done in a controlled manner, is cheap help defense. Should a guy be able to bowling-ball his way to the hoop? No. The on-ball defender has a right to stay in front. I don't think that's what's being argued here. It's the notion of what constitutes "established position" and that has dwindled down from about a second of "being there" to a guy sliding/stepping in way late and having a referee make an arbitrary call and call the offensive player at fault.
I agree, shooting should be a fundamental developed (and more than just the jacking up of threes, annoying anymore isn't it, especially when a tie ball game is on the line and one shoots a three for the winner). But the usage of high efficient shots is dwindling due to cheaply called charge calls.
I feel like the restricted zone has actually made things worse, in that it's given the refs yet another thing to focus on, and too often they get stuck at "where were his feet" vs. "did he establish position"? If a guy has his feet stationary outside the restricted zone for a miliisecond before contact, even if his body continues to move, it feels like he gets the charging call more often than not, even though by current interpretation, it should be a block.