OT: Cato June on NPR Squeezing Footballs

Submitted by Turn Texas Blue on

I'm pretty sick of this story as well, but had to post because Cato June. Nothing new in the story...He can tell the difference between a properly inflated ball and one that is less inflated. They also bring in a former NFL ref for his 2 cents. Almost worth the listen for the zinger he gives himself at the end of the interview.

 

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/23/379282769/will-deflategate-let-any-air-ou…

julesh

January 23rd, 2015 at 9:19 AM ^

Why is no one talking about the former Chicago ball boy who said that refs never used their gauges to check the balls, and would just feel them? If that's what happened, the refs almost certainly approved the balls as is, and nothing was tampered with.

sadeto

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:11 AM ^

Yes, I have an advanced degree in that field. I guess I'm just assuming that less mass and more absorbtion of force and more friction would lead to less momentum. Anyhow, he did underthrow his receivers several times. 

superstringer

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:22 AM ^

Let's go over this again, Joegeo.  It's not as easy as you might be imagining.

I had a post a few weeks ago, about which would fall fastest to the ground if jumping out of an aircraft (without parachute) -- an elephant or Fred Jackson?  We're taught, everything falls at the same speed.  Not quite right, in an atmosphere.  The downward acceleration due to gravity is the same -- in a vacuum.  But air resistance -- DRAG -- pushes against (upwards) on the object.  The force of drag is a combination of its shape/surface and its mass.  If two objects have identical shape and surface but different weights, then the force of drag is the same, and the lighter one declerates faster.  Like, if you had a normal baseball and also a baseball filled with aerogel (super-light-weight interior, but identical exterior), and dropped both from a very high height, the heavier ball will hit first -- the lighter one will "float down" a bit.  More technically, the heavier ball has a higher "terminal velocity" (where the force of drag UP is equal to the pull of gravity DOWN).

So, on a football, there are similar considerations -- the initial force of the throw, offset by the force of drag.  Actually, I did a senior class Aero project on footballs, in the wind tunnel in the old UM AERO building on North Campus, measuring forces on them.  (We took a Nerf football and stuck a servomotor up it from the backside, to create the spin, and attached the motor to a brace in the wind tunnel, and measured the forces of the air moving over the ball, then plugged the results into a PC running a BASIC software program we wrote to calculate the effect.  That's 1986 for ya.)  We learned the physics of the ball from watching the QB in practice before a game -- and, huh, who was that, in 1986?  Yes, it was...JIM HARBAUGH.  Not kidding.  So, I bring you, the physics of a football, HARBAUGH'd.  (What we noticed is, the angle of attack, or the 'attitude' of the ball -- its orientation with respect to the direction it was pointed -- seems constant during its flight; it rotated about at the same rate the path of its flight bent, keeping a constant AOA.)

So what are the factors?

1.  The speed at which it leaves Tom's hand might be slightly different.  He might grip a deflated football a little better, and better grip implies slightly more force on the ball.  (Although grip could relate more to accuracy.)  Also, the lighter ball is going to be slightly faster, because obv, pushing a lighter objecf gives you more acceleration than a heavier one.  But the net weight difference is like a tiny fraction of an ounce.

2.  The deflated balls potentially might have a slightly different drag coefficient than an inflated one, because the shapes might not be exactly identical.  There is also an issue of whether the air's push against the ball, in flight, slightly changes the shape of the ball -- a deflated ball might have its "nose" pushed back a bit more, flattening it, tending to make it less aerodynamic and hence more draggy.  So a deflated ball might have a slightly higher drag coefficient.  But, this effect is probably de minimis or nonexistent at slow speeds.

3.  Because the deflated ball is ever so slightly lighter, if it has basically the same or slightly more drag, it might slow down FASTER than the inflated ball.  (More force pushing against it, on a lighter object, equals more decelleration.)

4.  One more thing.  A football sort of generates "lift" in flight, due to its spinning around its long axis -- like a curveball.  The seams and laces, as the ball spins, creates movement of the air around it, tending to lift it.  Again, if an inflated and deflated ball end up having identical shape, the lift is like the drag -- the same.  But a slightly deflated ball, like mentioned in #2, might flatten out a tiny bit more, which I'd think would tend to decrease the lift.  More lift = more time in flight, making it go farther.  So the inflated ball might have a tiny advantage in terms of flight time.  (OTOH, better grip on the ball might mean, slightly MORE spinning, which might INCREASE the lift.)

So, does #1 offset the effects of #2/#3?  And what is the net effect of $4?

My guess is, the deflated ball will TEND to fly a LITTLE SHORTER than an inflated ball, given the physics of the drag and lift.  If Tom's grip is better on the deflated ball, he might get better accuracy which is the tradeoff.  But possibly, his better grip might let him put more speed or spin on it, in which case, #1 and #4 predominate (it leaves his hand with slightly more speed, and generates slightly more lift) and it goes slightly farther.

So, uh, airchair physics tells us, "softer ball MIGHT NOT travel as far or fast." 

Sorry you asked?  You've been HARBAUGH'd.

treetown

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:38 AM ^

This was actually very helpful and one of the objectively useful comments in the whole process.

I was hoping there was someone here who could give these sort of answers. So there are some aerodynamic effects which can be objectively measured. As you note there is a potential tradeoff - "So, does #1 offset the effects of #2/#3?  And what is the net effect of #4?". In the drug/medical world there are agents which can cause a statistically measurable change from a placebo but aren't clinically meaningful. (e.g. drug X lowers blood pressure reproducibly by 3 mm Hg in all tested adult men and women, but such a drop isn't very useful as a drug to manage high blood pressure). Were football an Olympic sport I'm sure some national sports lab would have had one of those jug machines or something similar that imitates a forward pass do an analysis to find the idea setting.

Any Industrial Engineers out there who can address the realibility of the ball valves and measurements of pressure? Is the top of the line Wilson NFL official game ball a six sigma product?

I guess this may create another rule clarification, like the tuck rule. We've seen a couple so far. There is the Calvin Johnson "completing the process" for a catch rule with the Dez Bryant variant. Now we'll have to see clarification of maintaining ball inflation.

ak47

January 23rd, 2015 at 11:06 AM ^

Didn't a former QB come out and say that with a deflated ball and better grip he could throw the ball 10 yards further?  Your insights while helpful have been played out in the real world and at least QB's think that they can throw a deflated ball further, indiciating that your 2nd and 3rd points have neglible effect on the flight off the ball while the improved grip makes a much larger difference.

ESNY

January 23rd, 2015 at 2:03 PM ^

Yup, the mediocre QB who clearly has an axe to grind.  Most impartial observers have commented that a deflate ball will not travel as far as a fully inflated one (plus did Brady even complete more than one ball that was thrown for more than 10 yds?).  The prime motive in a deflated ball is grip, so maybe you can throw a tighter spiral or maybe you don't fumble it...

03 Blue 07

January 23rd, 2015 at 1:59 PM ^

ESPN SportsScience reached the same conclusions: deflation slows down the ball and slightly reduces its distance, even though the ball weighs only 1 gram less due to the reduction of 2 psi in air pressure. The segment aired on SportsCenter on Monday or Tuesday. Here's the video of the segment, (EDIT: which has apparently been pulled by ESPN for some unknown reason): http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=12207314 I recall that the segment stated that there was around a 1 gram weight difference due to deflation, but between a 10 and 40g weight difference due to the ball being wet (10 g if slightly wet; 40g if soaked). Point being, it had a negligible effect and, if anything, makes the QB have to work harder to achieve the same velocity and distance.

Also, the Smithsonian has weighed in from a physics standpoint as well, though your explanation is far more thorough and intelligent: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/science-behind-deflated-footba…

Point being, any advantage was negligible at best and you can make just as strong an argument that the deflation was a disadvantage to the Pats. 

 

Maize-achusetts

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:11 AM ^

The softer ball is apparently easier to grip (especially in poor weather conditions), therefore less likely to be fumbled.  

Found a fascinating analysis of this - it seems the Patriots fumble the ball significantly far less than normal. The analysis was done over multiple years.  Check it out.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

DMill2782

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:15 AM ^

2 psi lower means the "give" of the ball, when squeezed, changes by one millimeter! You seriously can't see how that is an enormous advantage. 

 This is serioulsy the dumbest thing ever. Mark Brunnel almost started crying on national TV about this. Get a grip. 

ak47

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:58 AM ^

I mean if you want to get really technical about it a softer football is easier to grip and thus make you less likely to fumble. But yeah anyone arguing that it changed the outcome of this game is lying to themselves.

JamieH

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:39 AM ^

I'm sure the Pats have been setting the balls up soft on purpose because Brady likes them that way.  And I'm sure the refs have been approving them, because they feel the ball and, yeah, it feels like an inflated football.  Good to go.

 

Until this weekend, how many people had even heard about the 12.5 to 13.5 psi rule?

DMill2782

January 23rd, 2015 at 11:03 AM ^

"The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game."

So the Pats didn't get the balls back after they were checked. When could they have tampered with them? During the game? Multiple cameras would have caught that and this investigation would be over. 

LSAClassOf2000

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:57 AM ^

By using the sound methodology of squeezing the football while asking it to cough, they correctly concluded that referee Walt Anderson did not in fact have a hernia as first suspected. This definitely sounds like it could happen in an NFL game. They really do need to write about the good news that comes out of these incidents now and again. 

Skapanza

January 23rd, 2015 at 9:59 AM ^

Good thing they re-inflated at halftime so the Pats competitive advantage was removed. It was a huge turnaround with Indy winning the 2nd 28-0 and going on to the Super Bowl.

DealerCamel

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:15 AM ^

There's such a thing as overinflation and there's such a thing as underinflation, so they put a number on it to make sure all balls are more or less the same.  Same rationale behind why the field is a certain width and length.

Then you get a case like this that puts the whole system to question, I guess.

treetown

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:16 AM ^

A lot of people can claim to know the difference between things and some can and some are being influenced by other factors - which is why they do blinded taste testing, ideally with neight the taster or the person giving the test knowing which brand cola/wine/etc. is in which container.

For an objective measurement of the effect of the depressurization there are so many issues with the methodology which I am sure the many engineers and quality/production engineering people can address as well.

1. Using a brand new ball actually may be not be the best idea in general because not only do you have to get rid of the manufacturing coating but one doesn't have the time to really check that the valves are tight and consistent and over what conditions. How reliable are the manufacturing tolerances? How consistent is it that balls hold their PSI. Since each team uses their own set of balls - I am guessing they come in a single production run as a group or do they? Are these some variant of the Presta and Schrader valves used on bike and car tires?

2. We've heard quoted again and again that the 11 of the 12 Pat balls were underinflated but no one has seen the official document. Did they test all of the Colt balls? When and how were they tested? What were the actual readings? How were they taken and on what type of device?

3. What is actually known about the natural history of deflation during a game. This would make a good science fair project for some kids - check game balls for high school before, at half time and the end of the game and see what the natural deflation rate is and correlate that with temperature. As others have noted, car tires can have shifts of many PSI and some have correlate that to the footballs but it may not be a straight linear relationship, need data.

4. Most surprisingly from the Brady press conference is that no one from the NFL has spoken to him (at least he didn't acknowledge it when asked) and that has been the NFL's problem in many of their recent troubles - a lack of solid approach to looking at problems like player behavior/arrest, PED, drugs in general, bounty, horrible calls, and now this. For a bunch of supposedly experience people in business with lots of lawyers and high priced help, they don't act very professionally.

RobM_24

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:33 AM ^

Cato June is a guy I'd like to see coaching at Michigan. He made a nice career for himself, had great coverage skills, and has experience as a LB and DB.

4roses

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:38 AM ^

and not because it's so meaningless to the outcome of that game (it is) or because I'm sick of all the coverage (I am). There are just so many important facts and questions that are either missing or being glossed over that I can't stand it. To wit:

1) What was the pressure of the balls as measured by the refs before the game? Was it recorded anywhere?

2) What was the pressure of the 11 balls that are under suspicion? (i.e. how under inflated were they) Lower limit is 12.5 psi, were they 12.4 psi? 12.0 psi? 9.0 psi?

3) What is the acuracy of gauges used? (by the refs and by the NFL)  Are they calibrated? Does the NFL know what a gage r&r study is?

4) Where did the 12.5 - 13.5 requirement come from? Manufacturers recommendation? Detailed NFL study? Any data to support the requirement?

5) If the pressure of the football is so important why does the NFL allow each team to supply their own balls? Wouldn't it be much more fair (and easy) for the NFL to supply all the balls and make each use the same ones?  

Bottom line in my mind is that until we get the facts (no, I'm not holding my breath) all this conjecture being bandied about is a complete waste of people's breath.  

tabfan19

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:55 AM ^

"5) If the pressure of the football is so important why does the NFL allow each team to supply their own balls? Wouldn't it be much more fair (and easy) for the NFL to supply all the balls and make each use the same ones?"

 

This is the part I find so baffling.  Why do they have separate balls for each team?  That would just seem to BEG for this kind of potential infraction.  If they have have shared for kickoffs, why not for the whole game?

NCMtnBlue

January 23rd, 2015 at 10:46 AM ^

Hey Ref - Did you squeeze our balls?

Yeah, I squeezed your balls.

Well, how did they feel?

They felt a little soft.

You think they should be harder?

Yes, your balls should be much harder.

OK, can you help make our balls harder?

I believe that would be a personal foul.

 

Maize-achusetts

January 23rd, 2015 at 12:19 PM ^

Of course it's not the reason.

But that's not the point.  If we sit down to play poker, and I somehow cheat to get a straight, but on the river you make a flush to beat me anyway, are you ok with the fact that I tried to cheat to win?

I sure wouldn't be.