If that's true, he's probably gone from the univeristy completely. Wasn't that also kind of the rumor why they kicked their their leading RB (Unaga?) out of school as well? I believe that at the same time, his girlfriend (on the WBB team), was kicked out of school as well. No judgement, but the LDS church takes that kind of stuff very, very seriously.
OT: BYU's Davies reportedly kicked off team for having sexual relations
harvey Unga. His girlfriend was a female athlete at BYU, and she left at the same time he did, so people inferred that they left because they had premarital relations.
EDIT: Vai Taua played for Nevada.
You're obviously not a troll, and I would consider you to be a positive asset like Irish if you stick around, it just takes a thick skin. You're well spoken and you are a good representative of MSU, imo.
Harvey Unga and his girlfriend left school after they found out she was pregnant. His girlfriend was a member of the BYU women's basketball team.
it makes sense.
No sex with your girlfriend but it ok to have 10 wives
I actually give BYU props for sticking to their guns. They were easily an elite 8 team this year with Davies. Most schools would've buried it. He knew the rules. If he didn't want to follow them, don't go to BYU.
If it was Michigan/any public university/most private universities, this would be ridiculous. But it is BYU. They have their rules, they require that everyone strictly adheres to them. It's not much of secret what they are, I'm sure I could puzzle out most of them. If you wanna have sex in college, don't go to BYU, or at the very least, don't get caught.
I give BYU mad props for sticking to their guns. There are quite a few teams that with violation of team rules/federal rules/any sort of regulations, will do all they can to smooth them over to keep them on their team. The obvious one is State (though let's remember that few/no schools are perfect, including Michigan). However, the cynical part of me wonders if BYU could have done that even if they wanted to. Once it's out, I feel like most of the donors/fans/boosters of BYU, especially older ones, would have a fit if he was let back on the team.
It reflects very positively on both parties that a.) BYU is willing to stick to its principles regardless of the cost and b.) that Davies acknowledges that he made a mistake and is remorseful. It's a huge opportunity for him to grow as a person as a result of putting himself in a bad situation.
You think it's good that he's remorseful? I don't. I think it would be good if he had an epiphany and thought to himself, hmm, I didn't harm anyone, I did something that people all around the world consider a loving, mutually beneficial act, but because it's against some ancient rule they treat me like Mike Vick at a PETA convention. Hmm, maybe this whole religious fundamentalism thing aint all it's cracked up to be.
But that's just me.
You're entitled to your opinion.
BYU and Brandon Davies should be entitled to theirs.
ten wives, right? Who comb the obits for nonbelievers to baptize as Mormons post-mortem? Where women, fundie-style, are supposed to stand behind their husbands come what may? I'd say this is what you reap when you sow hipocrisy; BYU now suffers.
That's just the fundamentalist sect of the LDS church - the mainstream LDS doesn't encourage or allow for that anymore. From what I've read they changed that after some very strong political pressure FWIW. But, ya know, saying all Mormons are poligamists is like saying all Muslims are terrorists...
"Saying all Mormons are polygamists is like saying all Muslims are terrorists."
That is not an apt analogy. To make the anaology, you'd have to say all Muslims did start out as terrorists but many renounced it for politically convenient reasons along the way and now mouth off that they never liked it.
Poligamy started as a fundamental tenet of Mormonism. Then when they wanted statehood for Utah, the Congress told them, no way as long as you're poligamists. So they suddenly got religion and said, like, oh poligamy? Never liked it. Gone, erased that rule from our books.
This is what is so fundamentally RIDICULOUS about the Mormon faith. It's derived from ONE guy, and he had some pretty Taliban-esque rules (but even the Taliban don't condone multiple wives). So to say a religion -- allegedly representing God's higher order -- can suddenly shave off one of their fundamental tenets just because a political body says you have to? That says to me -- well, maybe ALL of your tenets and rules aren't exactly derived from the higher order.
If you've ever heard a Mormon describe some of their beliefs, like how a soul is eternal in both directions but merely touches on earth for a while... it's pretty sci-fi'ish. Like all the souls were created in the Big Bang? Hmm, fit THAT into astrophysicism.
Full disclosure here, Catholic talking... so pardon me for snickering at a Christian religion created when ONE HUMAN decided he knew what no one else knew. To borrow a Steve Martin bit from the 70s... you wouldn't trust going to a bank owned by one guy. "Hi, I'm Fred, this is Fred's bank. Got $2000 to save? Here, I'll put it... put it... here, in my left pocket, there's room, okay!" Like.. "Hi, I'm Brigham, these are the real laws of God!!!"
OK, rant over.
Tbf, the founder of the one true church of jesus christ (their words, not mine) was Joseph Smith Jr. A raging alcoholic and degenerate gambler by most accounts.
Seriously, there's a lot of stuff in there that supports the extremists POV. Jsut because something started that way doesn't really mean much IMO. America started as a slavery nation but that doesn't mean that me being white and saying slavery was wrong is just me being PC...
I don't want to get into a big thing here, but to criticize one set of dogmatic beliefs (Mormonism) and disclose you accept another set of dogmatic beliefs (Catholicism), and claim your set is more plausible than their set is just mind bubbling. Belief is just another game absent absolute certainty, and ultimately religion, due to its high volume of unprovable and untestable premises, comes down to faith in these premises, to belief in belief. So any religion - unless that religion is a theory that can be directly tested - boils down to faith that certain premises are true. Theoretically, it's all sci-fi'ish, in that, the foundation of religion is build upon metaphysical and historical propositions that can't be definitively tested. Dogmatic religions, such as Mormonism and Catholicism, carefully organize these untestable, unprovable theories into a complex but unified belief system. But to say that one of these belief systems is superior to another for any reason whatsoever is a excersice in futility, seeing that any premise that cannot be tested is just as likely to be true or false than any other premise, Mormonism has just as much chance of being true as Catholicism. To say otherwise is to infer that your system of belief is better than someone else's system because Catholicism just "sounds" like a better way to understand this life and all that it entails than Mormonism does, although they are both equally plausible. This kind of superior attitude regarding belief and faith is the stuff ill advised wars are founded on.
"This is what is so fundamentally RIDICULOUS about the Mormon faith. It's derived from ONE guy"
How many guys was Jesus?
Everybody always forgets about the Old Testament (unless you're Jewish)! Moses is important too! ;)
/Christian w/ a sense of humor
I grew up in the Mormon faith, and although at 18 I chose to no longer practice, a lot of comments on this thread are disappointing.
BYU is more than upfront about their honor code, and quite frankly there are plenty of Catholic colleges with similar rules regarding alcohol and sex (Notre Dame). I knew I didn’t want to follow that sort of an honor code so I didn’t apply to BYU. It really is that simple. Manti Teo is a Mormon who didn’t go to BYU, it happens.
But if you chose to go to BYU you know what you’re accepting, and you know that if you break the rules then you have to face the consequences.
Religion is an intensely personal decision for most people, perhaps some of the posters should think about that before spouting of ignorant hate filled comments. These posters need to go back and watch the South Park episode about Mormons. Regardless of what you think about the validity of their beliefs, it it’s not hurting you and gives that person a good life, then why do you care?
Here's the problem with your analysis. The kid didn't go to just any school - he chose to come to BYU which, as he was aware, is a Morman univeristy that adheres to a strict code of conduct.
That code of conduct is not for everyone. Which is why not every kid goes to BYU. But, he chose to go there, presumably knowing their rules.
If BYU were out there railing against athletes as other schools for having sex, then I would see your point - but this is not that. They are only applying their code to one of their own athletes.
I know numerous ex-BYU students who say the whole campus scene is ridiculous and hypocritical. they cant drink tea for chist's sake. Flaunting the rules is rampant (drugs,sex, alcohol, rock and roll), and the whole thing is juvenile and petty. The only growth he will reap from this experience is the folly of this, and most organized religions, where the rules are broken routinely, especially by the "elders". It's a total shame. Look at the supposedly celebate priests butt f**king the little boys. Fantasy Land. 19 year olds have sex. Remember? Artifical rules, forbidding victimless crimes, create only guilt and unnecessary, unnatural grief.
"Look at the supposedly celebate priests butt f**king the little boys."
Definitely not the same as a kid being thrown off a sports team for screwing his girlfriend.
No, it certainly isn't. Shame on the Church that would turn a blind eye to such a disgraceful sin. Fortunately the Church didn't have to, as the university boldly punished the sinners for them.
They're perfectly within their rights to carry out a punishment that they deem necessary, when both parties consent to the rules and the punishment beforehand.
He consented to what you call "artificial" rules. No matter how silly anybody thinks they are, he agreed to them and BYU is right to uphold the standards they expect their athletes to abide by. I would guarantee he signed some sort of agreement to follow the school's honor code.
When I was a kid in the 1970's we lived in Tulsa, Oklahoma. One of my parents married friends( in her late 20's) was attending Orel Roberts University. She got pregnant and was promptly kicked out of school. I'm not sure if they still kick married women out of school for getting pregnant...but I wouldn't be surprised.
When I was a kid in the 1990's, I lived in Cincinnati, OH. I bought a bicycle once. I am not sure if that bicycle store still exists... but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.
I'm sure Jim McMahon never did anything like that when he was the star qb at BYU....
Just shout, "Who's got da bomb ass dick?!", the whole time.
I wish I could +1 this 100 times.
RA saw the tie on the door?
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned
that was my question too.....
Yeah man, this is oppression in the name of social constructs by backward ass religious zealots. Seriously, when are people going to espouse education over prohibition? For fuck sakes.
Nobody forced him to go to BYU; he knew the rules there.
Opression would be not allowing him and BYU to enter into agreement on those rules in the first place.
And apparently some people on this board don't get that.
I can't agree more with your arguments down the thread, by the way. This is just getting silly.
Thank you. It's somewhat baffling to me that people are imposing their moralities on BYU because BYU is exercising their rights of freedom of religion and by having people agree to their rules, they aren't imposing anything on anyone. I might be wrong, but the people who are criticizing BYU are more intolerant than BYU.
I think so too. It's private; they agreed to the rules. Think whatever you want about the morality of his actions, but it is definitely not opression.
Well said. Couldn't agree more.
Seriously when are people going to stop imposing their values on a group of people who are living by their chosen moral code and not hurting anyone by doing it. I think BYU's rule is ridiculous, but it's BYU's rule and so I don't get a say in it.
That's the untold story that the article doesn't address. How did they get caught? by a Mormon underwear-wearing (google it) roommate who turned them in? Were they going at it in the backrooms of the genealogy archives? In the Mormon Tabernacle Choir building? Out on the Bonneville Salt Flats, in flagrante delicto?
Maybe this is the top 12 program that Cowherd was hinting at. The big scandal is going to revolve around unauthorized premarital sexual congress at BYU.
I read that his girlfriend is pregnant. I's take it with a grain of salt, but it seems like a reasonable explanation for how this was discovered.
I bet it was one of his wives that squealed on him. Damn polygamist bitch!
Is wow. If they win out and get a # 1 Seed, then all the critics will be itching to get on their case as soon as they lose and this will keep blowing up.
BYU only cares about critics if they're Mormon.
All over ESPN. Every student signs an Honor Code which premarital sex is forbidden. There are many schools he couldve chose but he decided to submit to this code--by signing. So before we break out verses from "Our Bodies and Ourselves" and claim 1969 blasphemy let BYU write their own rules. Nothing to burn your bra over.
Same reason Harvey Unga was kicked off the football team (and out of school) along with his girlfriend (iirc, also a BYU athlete) last summer.
"Joe Prospect, we really want you to play here at BYU. Not only will you be expected not to smoke put, but you can't drink alcohol or even coffee. And if we catch you getting laid, we will kick you out of school. Are you ready to sign the papers?"
Don't forget about Tea! That will get you kicked out as well.
It just better camomile, by golly.
BYU generally pitches education, fan base, and alumni network. There's also the fact that its the Mormon Harvard and recruiting is generally not that tough for them.
I find it odd that premarital sex is forbidden, but polygamy is ok? I truly am ignorant when it comes to this so if I'm completely off base, please explain...
Polygamy was outlawed in the Utah Constitution when Utah became a state. It was a Federal requirement of attaining statehood. Some sects still practice polygamy in isolated areas of the state, which isn't terribly hard to get away with given how rugged the terrain is out there and the state government's habit of turning a blind eye to the issue.
Given the "They're forcing mothers away from their children!" outcry that happens every time the government tries to enforce the law theres a good reason for said blind eye. Personally, I think they should just make everyone from the polygamist colonies ineligible for welfare(the other wives in a polygamist family tend to be single in the eyes of the state and welfare fraud is rampant). That would help curb the practice without the TV images that accompany raids.
So, in other words, we should punish the children of polygamists for being poor.
I've known a few and they certainly aren't poor. The thing you need to understand about these sects that support and ecourage polygamy is they help their own. If, in fact, you are poor the rest of the community comes together and supports you because they believe what you're doing is right. Now, as far as taxes are concerned it's really not hard to get welfare when you have a ton of kids and your wife (or wives) don't work - you get a 15 person writeoff so as far as the feds (or the state for that matter) are concerned you're broke but in all actuality you're doing fine. You're not living like Donald Trump or anything but from all the Mormons I've talked to the rest of the mormon community comes to the aid of those who are young and don't have to money to support the massive number of children they are having and when you aren't paying for clothing or food and you don't lavish your kids with gifts children aren't that monetarily expensive.
Read the argument I was making. Welfare fraud is rampant because household income is misrepresented. The children aren't punished because they're living above what the state says they are. This is just one possible way to address the practice.
Through college without any action then maybe you deserve all the action you can handle when youre married.
Polygamy isn't officially sanctioned by the LDS (anymore, at least), but Mormonism has several fringe offshoots and movements that still support polygamy. Basically, people that aren't happy with the fact that the LDS doesn't still condone polygamy leave and start their own branches of the faith.
Polygamy was outlawed by the lds over a century ago. It still continues in extremely small (and unaffiliated with the church of LDS) sects of "traditional" mormons, although the church of LDS has denounced them and like i said is unaffiliated. I cant quite remember, but i believe the percentage of polygamist mormons works out to less than 1%
As many have posted already, the LDS church outlawed polygamy as a condition of Utah's statehood (Utah joined the Union in 1896). Polygamy is prosecuted and rooted out by the authorities in Utah, so most polygamist communities exist outside of Utah, notably in northern Arizona along the Utah border (Colorado City, Arizona has quite a few). My aunt and uncle live in Utah so I'm a frequent visitor and I have seen a few polygamist families, but mainstream Mormons look down upon polygamy, and I believe that if a member of the LDS church is caugh practicing polygamy they are expelled from the church.
If that's how they run their school and the students sign off on it, I guess it's OK. Still, that would be tough if you were a student there. Best of luck to Mr. Davies.
Vince Biegel, I hope you're reading this...
That was my thought at first, but then I looked it up and he is a Mormon. So as long as he is faithful to his religion, I doubt it will affect his decision all that much.
i guess you can't go "all the way tonight" when you go to BYU. Yeesh. Blue balls is NOT my sport of choice
Is it safe to assume that big upcoming CFB story won't be about their misuse of recruiting hostesses?
to make a "seed" joke about BYU in the tourney, but I think any that I might make would be in incredibly poor taste.
... aaaand now I'm thinking about how to incorporate "taste" into that joke. Ahg!
Duke has good teams, but most of their players never are "stars" in the NBA, count Grant, Christian and Jason Williams aside...
Coach K has always emphasized team players versus stars when recruiting--his strategy works.
I just don't buy the #3, 2, 1 unless it's been held for months, and even then, when March Madness cones around, said school will lose to lower seeds...we all remember back in the early 90's when The Orangemen were ranked very high and lost to the Richmond Spiders.
I just don't buy the ranking, as to me, it really comes down to Conference and strength of schedule. Generally speaking, the ACC is the hardest Conference in terms of b-ball...
Now, I don't know what BYU's schedule looked like so, I cannot say that they have a harder or easier schedule.
Most importantly I can't wait till tourney time.
Shouldn't have enrolled at BYU when their honor code has been known for how many decades now? Seems to work for everyone else that attends.
to Michigan. BYU loses a big man for allegedly having sex? Beyond a quick byline, this is silly and not newsworthy. Go Blue
OT = Off-Topic. Pro Tip: Don't jump on people until you know more about how the board works.
Damn man, what is it these past few days? Michigan is "top 25 in a good year" and (paraphrasing) "OT threads are OT."
Neg-bombs have been useless for weeks now. We have no defense against trolls and I think they're starting to figure it out. Also we're approaching Selection Sunday and ambient interest in athletics from idiots and non-idiots alike is bound to increase.
ARRRRGH. This is just frustrating.
Remember when Rush Limbaugh was on the board and we negged him into the -500 range before he got banned? I miss those days. We need our godlike powers back, damn it!
That's 17 kinds of awesome.
I don't remember it either, but that is pretty awesome.
We need the decency back, and it seems like it was the negs keeping it that way before.
Bingo. Thank you. End of discussion.
So I presume you also think the Honor Codes at all five service academies are draconian as well? I know of people expelled from the Naval Academy for literally the same thing.
I think it's become abundantly clear that his problem doesn't lie with BYU's honor code, but with the moral code of organized religion.
I think you know that hasn't been lost on me. Just pointing out the similarities without the organized religion stigma attached.
Edit- Damn, didn't catch your subject line.
As a PS to this all, I'm not a religious person; these values aren't mine to say the least. But I want to go to a school that embodies my values, just like I don't want to take that away from someone who has values that are different than mine. He has these values, let him live with them the same way you want to be left to live with your values.
I'm a Christian so I guess I'm predisposed to being sympathetic to BYU in this case for upholding what they believe in, but I don't agree with all of the aspects of their honor code to say the very least. I'm all for letting them practice what they want, as long as it's legal, of course. I don't care how BYU chooses to practice their faith, and I don't think anyone else should care how I practice mine, as long as I'm not infringing on their rights. I don't think BYU infinged on anyone's rights in this case.
It was a very apt comparison btw.
No reply, other than to say I agree completely.
I'm just upset that people are prosthelytizing on why BYU is so horribly draconian, convoluted, and morally reprehensible in this case. It's frustrating.
Stay strong, man.
Especially since it wasn't as much of a debate as it was a flame war. The arguments were pretty ridiculous, but I think you (and every other one of the regular posters) handled it pretty well, considering.
Butt-slaps all around!
You handled it well yourself. I tried not to devolve into name-calling, and truth be told, life's a lot harder when you try to portray yourself in a certain way without falling into behaviors that cause others to look negatively on how you conduct yourself. I know I'm far from perfect and I never live up to the moral standards that I should, but I feel pretty good about how the posters (myself included) have handled this case.
Agreed. I'd say the good guys won tonight.
Yes I agree. I suggest we pass a new board rule:
From now on, no opinions! Even on off topic posts on controversial issues. Cause someone might get, like, upset. And that's no fun.
It is funny you should mention that as you try to tell BYU how to run their school and all Mormons to stop "forcing" their religion on their kids. I am guessing it is their opinion that you are a closed minded idiot.
I thought it was pretty clear that I was being sarcastic. I guess not.
So, here's a last-post-on-the-issue summary:
Unlike all the good people of the world, I think:
a) this kid's situation is terribly unfair and the arcane rules that BYU and the Mormon church impose on young people are not my cup of tea.
b) on a message board off topic post, posters should be allowed to express their opinions.
The end. Gold stars for everybody!
Pretty sure under US law you can't restrict reproductive rights with respect to a government action, at least for adults.
And he was kicked off the basketball team, not out of school, right? What moral code is that? The NCAA should adopt a rule that any school participating in a sanctioned league shall not be allowed to ban a student for otherwise legal sex.
Agreed. Also, they should just stop all schools from disciplining students for doing otherwise legal things. Then, the kids can do whatever the fuck they want as long as they don't get arrested and not think twice about it. The NCAA should definitely have looked into Izzo kicking Allen and Lucious off the team. He should have been forced to keep them on the team unless they did something illegal.
Just a guess, but I'm pretty sure the Mormons have progressed far beyond that.
Although they can be held responsible for the Osmonds.
Yes, they've progressed to the point of crushing a 20 year old young man's dreams and exiling him from their community because he had the audacity to have sex.... with his girlfriend! Congratulations to them!
If this was a problem for him, he should not have gone to school there. As far as any of us knows, he was not forced to attend BYU.
He knew what the deal was and it definitely hurts but BYU was upfornt about what would and would not be tolerated and he signed on to those rules. It's not like they're imposing their beliefs on someone who didn't consent to these rules, Davies easily could have gone elsewhere for college.
"It's not like they're imposing their beliefs on someone"
Did you grow up in a Mormon family or Provo, Utah? Do you know Brandon Davies' life story? I would say that when your family and community instills in you a certain belief system and way of life, that's imposing their views.
But again, that's just me.
I know that Brandon Davies is "remorseful and heartbroken" over what has transpired, so my assumption is that he's perfectly okay with what BYU thinks and has done. I know that he did indeed grow up in a Mormon household (and I do think that he is actually from Provo), but if he didn't still agree with their values, he could be playing at Arizona State right now and be getting laid whenever he wants to. The fact that he is at BYU in the first place and that he feels remorse for what he's done leads me to believe that he doesn't feel that anyone's beliefs have been imposed on him whatsoever.
Utah and Utah State are also heavily Mormon populated, without the same Honor Code. He chose BYU specifically when (if you accept the "culture being forced on him") he had two other great choices.
He's a solidly above-average player on an elite team and I'm sure that he could have willingly practiced his faith at any school that offered him a scholarship.
Well, yea. I was just arguing the Mormon culture point. He's very talented, almost any Big Ten or Big East team would be lucky to have him.
and I was just adding that he'd be able to practice his Mormon faith away from the universities with a Mormon culture (like Manti Te'o at Notre Dame).
Stay strong, man. We'll get through the PC police crackdown together.
You can disagree with BYU's principles all you want but it's not like it isn't abundantly clear that students are set to adhere to certain standards. Drawing the comparison to Muslim theocracies who stone women is crossing the line. I really hope this thread gets locked because ad homenim attacks on people who do respect BYU for doing the right thing in not backing down from what they believe in does not have a place on this board.
I'm sure you are as irritated with the use of "scUM" as we are, and I'm not really happy with ragging on State if it's the same thing I've heard five hundred times. I guess we aren't so different.
It seems as though Davies also enjoyed the back and forth.
aaaand BYU lost to New Mexico tonight
More like the "A bit of the old In-Out."
(Apologies to Malcolm McDowell and A Clockwork Orange)
Dismissing a guy from a basketball team =/= death by stoning.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he didn't say they were equal, he said they were both draconian and backwards. Which they are.
Intolerance goes both ways.
Edit: Plus he drew the comparison. It was obvious that he was equating the two by asking that if we're commending BYU for their actions if we should be commending the Muslim theocracies for doing the same.
Is it a draconian requirement of Catholicism that priests must remain celebate? I think there's a significant distinction between cases where the affected party has voluntarily agreed to these sets of rules (as in BYU), and in cases where the rules are thrust upon them (most Middle Eastern countries have laws declaring anyone born of a Muslim father to be a Muslim, with no possibility of legally changing faiths).
I don't care that BYU is doing what they're doing, but it's Draconian to suggest that they shouldn't ask people to voluntarily adhere to a set of standards.
Exactly. They signed contracts stipulating that this was a no-no.
How draconian can a voluntary contract be? Is it draconian that NFL players can't use steroids?
Apparently it is if you have an intense dislike of religious practices that prohibit the use of steriods, and if you think that using steroids is okay.
You and most of the others on here seem to get it but what scares me are the ones who think that this is wrong for the wrong reasons. The wrong reasons being the rules he agreed to.
Does that make any sense?
I think it's great the kid owns the choice he made. It's the opposite of what most people do today.
Agreed. He signed a contract, he fucked up, the contract had stipulations saying what happened if he fucked up.
It's as simple as that when you take the words "Mormon" or "morality" out of it.
and it's really as simple as a person not living up to a contract. A spade is a spade.
Except when it's a shovel. ZING!
You're a shovel.
I'm more of a big spoon to your avatar.
I always thought you were more of a little spoon to your avitar.
Doomguy could have his way with either of us if he *really* wanted to. Fortunately, he's usually busy saving the world, but on his off days, he makes a great wingman. Your avatar, on the other hand, chants into a cone and tries to look pretty in order to find a good husband.
And if I told you it wasn't a cone, but a very big bottle of wine? And maybe she makes a good wingman some nights too; you have nooo idea how me and her roll.
I'm guessing it involves gay biker bars, fur-covered handcuffs, and leather. Lots and lots of leather.
You're spot on, except I think you misspelled "Miranda Kerr's house".
So Miranda, your avatar, and Orlando Bloom all dress up in biker leather, handcuff you to the bed, and run a train on you? Sounds like super-fun-times to me!
Seriously though, she's married to Orlando effing Bloom? Weak sauce.
I was going to tell you that he just tapes, but this joke has run its course.
Yes, that's weak...very weak.
The last sentence in your post nails it. This isn't so much people upset over a team rule as it is an objection to religion which makes this a slippery slope.
This issue is a lot closer to making a kid run laps for being late to practice or missing a tackle than a caning.
and people don't see it the way that Brandon Davies sees it.
Glad to see everyone else has reached a consensus.
Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to believe that when you have a religion drilled into your brain from the age of 0 and "choosing" to leave that religion would entail disassociating yourself from your family and everyone you've ever known, then continuing that path at age 17 is not a completely "voluntary" choice.
And in my mind, 17-21 year olds shouldn't have their lives thrown upside down because they choose not to follow a set of questionable religious precepts that have been imposed on them since birth. I think such penalties are draconian, "voluntary" choices involved or not.
But hey, people are entitled to different opinions right? That's why pluralism is so great!
I don't think anyone's arguing that people aren't entitled to their own opinions, we're just merely pointing out the flaws in the arguments of the posters who are criticizing BYU. This isn't the time and this isn't the place for a discussion on religious indoctrination, and I'm not going to get into that on a Michigan message board, but I think you're drawing highly speculative and logically questionable conclusions from the little evidence we have regarding the situation.
Catholicism says sex before marriage is wrong, and what is the percentage of people in the US that are catholics? If you are going to say Mormonism is draconian and backwards, you are going to have to say that a majority of Americans are the same.
I don't want to get into a religious debate, but it isn't as though Catholics are this new age religion that is hip and all about banging as many chicks as possible.
Edit: Apparently jmblue and I were thinking the same thing.
It's an explicit part of the BYU system, and it is not immoral, illegal, or unconstitutional. Religious freedom is religious freedom is religious freedom.
Okay, fine. I'm not going to get drawn into a slippery slope comparing dismissal from a university to stoning, because frankly, it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that unfortunately, we have a world full of self righteous pricks like you that think THEIR morals should set the standard for the world. Do I disagree with canings and stonings? Definitely. Do I disagree with this? Yup. Am I god-king of ethics? Nope.
AND NEITHER ARE YOU!
You're missing the part where all the Saudi women voted and freely chose those punishments (which don't apply to men).
You equate a kid choosing to go to a college with strict rules to a woman born into a society with little to no choice in the matter. I don't think a muslim, female has much of a choice to what country or type of society she is born into. The kid made a choice to go to BYU which make kids sign the code when they enroll. If he didn't like it then he could have gone elsewhere. I'm sure he had other offers.
This is about choices and the consequences that go along with them. He made a choice and knew the consequences. Why can't people own their decsions?
If you can't see how different the two are I feel really bad for you and anyone else.
BILG, you do realize that this kid chose to go to BYU right? I don't think the Muslim women in the Arab world chose to be "caned and stoned." Your comparison is about as illogical as they come.
And the winner of going the extra mile goes to... this dumb ass.
It's simple don't agree to go to a religious school that has these standards. He's an adult and he signed a paper that says i agree to do this. Black/white issue no gray.
Not even remotely close to the same thing, but nice try.
Correction, they are Mormons.
If you've ever read the BYU Honor Code, this isn't surprising. You don't like it? Don't go to school there. I think it's as draconian as the next guy, but it's their rules, and their students have to live by them, I guess.
I mean, Julie from Real World: New Orleans was booted from BYU for having the audacity to merely sleep in the same bed as a man. Not have sex. Just share a bed.
Very much this.
Of course, this is coming from a guy who also attends a school whose code of student conduct forbids non-marital sex (as well as most types of drinking and pretty much anything else that could be considered 'fun' in South Bend, IN).
just maybe, I mean I'm spitballing here, but MAYBE when you are 18 years old, and you have the maturity/emotional development of a 15 year old because you've lived your whole life in the restrictive world of the LDS, MAYBE you just don't realize the ramifications of signing the Honor Code pledge. Maybe, just MAYBE you've never fallen in love with a girl(or boy) before, maybe you think you know that you don't want to have sex until you get married. Then maybe, who knows, it is college after all, and there are thousands of young enthusiastic people mingling in one small area, MAYBE you meet someone you love. But oh shit, you can't fully express that love, sorry son, remember two years ago when you signed that Honor Pledge? Yep, we've got you by the balls now, separate beds or you're outta here!
Just sayin', things aren't always so black and white. And just because the policy is clear to incoming students doesn't automatically make it right to enforce a policy so far outside our cultural and social norms.
He could have gotten married and banged away all he wanted within the rules. Besides BYU's policy is well within the cultural and social norms of the Mormon church.
Maybe, just maybe, just spitballing here, he respects his fucking parents, and follows in their footsteps. Maybe his dad isn't a pimp, nor his mom a cock sucking whore, and he follows what they belive, which happens to agree with the chuch they FUCKING FOLLOW!.. Nothing better than a bunch of 25 year old azzholes with no kids on this blog telling us how to raise kids. None of you are 5 feet from what your parents did, you just don't realize it. 'My parents gave me freedom",,,,,,,,,,,,fuck you they did. You're still just like them, they hope.
If I'm Beilein I'm on the horn with this kid yesterday.
Come to Michigan! You can bang any number of girls and still come to practice the next day.
The first step is getting the time of day from them (not easy).
It works stunningly well and saves a lot of time.
"Excuse me, miss. I was wondering if you would give me the time of day?" In three seconds flat, you know if you've got a chance to get into her pants, and nobody's feelings are hurt.
Lest anyone think it is safe for us Michiganians to hurl stones:
"Any man who shall seduce and debauch any unmarried woman shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 5 years or by fine of not more than 2,500 dollars"
This law is still on the books in Michigan. Just getting kicked out of school is looking pretty good, now, isn't it?
There are a ton of ridiculous laws all over this great land that will never again be enforced, and some that are enforced very often. In conclusion, never get caught making sweet sweet love by any authority figure or you will be in hot water.
There is no question that the rules at BYU are like something from several centuries ago. But geez, everyone who goes there goes knowing their rules are built on religious fundamentalism. There are plenty of other schools to go to if you won't want to deal with that crap.
This kid decided to that was what he wanted, and now he is paying the price. Moral of the story--if you want to act like it is 2011, don't go to a school that acts like it is 1811.
Well, this thread was not worth over 100 replies.
So I'm a BYU student, and I am really proud of my school for a university sticking to what it believes in. I would rather have the basketball team lose every single game than root for a team that doesn't keep the Honor Code. Our honor is more important than winning games.
And for all of you that say that it isn't fair, he knew what he was getting into coming to BYU. He went to Provo High, twenty seconds across the street from campus. I don't care if you think that we're backwards, it is what it is. The Honor Code helps us to live our religion to the best of our abilities, and it really isn't that bad. And I don't really think a critiscism of the LDS religion is really an acceptable topic of discussion on this board.
We all feel terrible for Brandon. I've met him before, and he's an awesome guy. He just made a mistake, and now the entire country knows about it. I respect him that he was a big enough man to admit that he made a mistake, even with all that's riding on him this season. We still love him here in Provo.
I think everyone who debates this topic should read something like this (obviously this is impractical, but I can wish). Brandon Davies has sure acted admirably considering that people have put his face next to his indiscretion all over the media.
Thanks. I really just fealt that people should get a point of view of someone close to the situation. I have a huge amount of respect for Brandon for admitting what he did. I wouldn't want my personal life talked about all over the country.
"And I don't really think a critiscism of the LDS religion is really an acceptable topic of discussion on this board."
I've got to agree with you 100%. Like I said before, I know a lot of people at service academies, and they take their Honor Code the same way you seem to. It's important, and it's something you know coming in. I said farther up that your particular code isn't for me, but that's irrelevent other than to say that I sure respect you for adhering to your own code, regardless of my own.
As to the quote I dragged from your post, I'm sorry you had to see that here tonight. I'll break MGoBoards code here to plead with you to look at the point totals of those who were involved in the bashing, and who came to defend. The "regulars" here definitely agree with that, and I hope you realized that throughout the thread.
Thank you. I really appreciate your comments. It's really killing me to watch my school and religion mocked in the national media all day. I really appreciate you, and everyone else who stood up for us.
The way I look at it, I don't judge anyone else for their lifestyle, so why judge mine? It isn't draconian or restrictive at all. I honestly barely even notice it. It isn't any different than the rules that a faithful member of our church would live by.
And I know that many people here were defending BYU and the LDS church. It was still extremelly frustrating to watch my fellow Michigan fans bash something that means so much to me. But I know that it was a small minority, and I really appreciate your comments. Thank you
I wish I could tell you that I understand a bit of what you feel, but that would involve getting into my personal politics (I've already talked religion and MGoPoints today, and I want to be here tomorrow). I'm with you about seeing things you love get mocked day-to-day.
Live and let live is the best course of action. This hate and divide, especially on a friggin' sports blog, gets us nowhere.
I agree. I really appreciate everything that you have been saying all throughout this thread. I'm not offended by the comments that some posters here have made. Honestly, you really just get used to taking abuse from people. I just really fealt like I needed to get my point of view (and the point of view of most BYU students, alums and fans) out in the open.
Honestly, I was wondering how long it would take to get a BYU alum/student on the board. Good to hear about the thick skin.
Here's to talking about beating MSU, and not posters religious practices.
The Honor Code is the same for everyone; both athletes and regular students are treated equally. While it is true that bad stuff still happens on campus, it is nowhere near is bad as at most schools.
The reason that it may seem like athletes are held to a higher standard is that they are just in the public spotlight. As the name implies, most of the Honor Code stuff is up to you to report. I don't really think athletes are treated differently, you just don' hear about the regular students who are kicked out (I know of a few myself).
The Honor Code definitely has a way for you to learn from your mistakes. For minor offenses you are just put on probation. Even with larger offenses it is very difficult to be kicked out of school forever, with the exception of if you committed a crime. Even if you are suspended or kicked out of school, there is usually a way for you to eventually work your way back.
It is also not true that non-LDS athletes are told that it isn't as strict for them. It is just as strict for everyone, LDS or not. None of the coaches would ever purposely represent it that way either. Everyone knows exactly what is expected of them when they sign with BYU.
I know this was long, but I hope it answers some of your questions. And feel free to ask any more. I don't mind explaining things.
I feel bad for you DC Wolverine. I hope one day you will be able to free your mind from its indoctrinated state. Hopefully while you still have time to enjoy your youth.
Do you have any idea how intolerant you are? Apparently only people like justin and white tiger and Mormons know what it means to be tolerant on this board.
To read more about Mormons and tolerance, google "Mormons and homosexuality"
Good night. Tolerance for all!
that my parents didn't force any beliefs on me, but rather allowed me to develop my own opinions about the world, and what is right and wrong.
I am so thankful that I and my siblings did not grow up in a repressive community like Mr. Davies, being forced to believe that homosexuality and sex before marriage are sins. I am thankful that my brother was able to tell our family that he was gay at the age of 18, and we of course love him for who he is and love that he is able to communicate with us without fear of judgment. Compare that to the last generation when my relative couldn't tell her parents she was gay until she was in her 30s, or the generation before that when my relative lived in a sham marriage for 30 years before coming out.
I'm sorry for getting off topic but reading about people that are repressed and living as if it is still the 19th century within our country really gets me going.
As you called my name out, I think I should reply.
I have never claimed that people with opposing views from my own cannot be tolerant; two sides to an argument can both be easily tolerant or intolerant. What I had a "PC" issue with is calling out someones beliefs as draconian, or that their governing body is akin to stoning someone for enforcing a willingly signed contract.
Whatever you think about Mormonism in general isn't appropriate material here. You'll notice I never defended (or insulted) the Mormon religion other than to say it's an admirable trait to live up to ones code. I also pointed out that other colleges at the Division 1 level have similar restrictions on student-athletes that are not seen as "draconian", and made a similar point about professional athlete's contracts. On the other hand, there were numerous attacks- of which you seemed to always be in the center- on the religion itself.
If you want to join in the ad hominem, calling me "butt-slapping, homoerotic", fine; be my guest. If you want to take your chances getting banned by throwing slanders at someones religion, go for it. Just don't expect people to take you seriously when you put together an actual argument, and don't expect the rest of the board to support you any more than they did tonight.
You got riled up because I called a religion draconian. If you expect me to apologize, you're barking up the wrong tree.
The only real difference between you and I is that I think it's ok to say (on a message board off topic post) that I think that a religion is draconian and indoctrinating, and you don't.
I never made any ad hominem attacks or said anything that I wouldn't print in a newspaper editorial. My "arguments" were my own beliefs and my thoughts on the actual situation, not your attempts to change the discussion re: stoning and your straw men re: the military and "slanders". If you don't get what I'm trying to say, I'm not going to explain it to you any further.
Good luck with your crusade,
My argument was that there was no place for it on MGoBoard. We were talking about what happened (and has happened before), not the religious merits of it.
We aren't debating the Mormons or whatever they believe, because, frankly, I couldn't care less. I'm just saying that in this case they haven't indoctrinated anyone and are perfectly justified in how they acted, without imposing their beliefs on an unwilling party. Apparently you disagree, and I see this as intolerance of a people who want to believe and worship the way that they want.
I respect your opinion, but I do not think that I am indoctrinated. I go to BYU, and I am a member of the LDS church because I want to be. I chose this of my own free will because I believe it and it makes me happy. Before I got to college I was just like every other non-Mormon high school kid. I had time to "enjoy my youth" and honestly I wasn't happy. So am I really indoctrinated if my religion makes me happier than anything else in my entire life?
I know that I am not supposed to talk about religion on this board, but I really fealt like I needed to get my side of the story out. I am truly sorry if I offened anyone.
its option B then, you feel that religion saved your life.
I would say that many people aren't happy in high school, sometimes it takes more time growing up to discover who you are. I don't know you personally, but the people I know that have similar stories of redemption I find usually just didn't realize that they had the strength within themselves the whole time. But hey, if they feel that the religion was what made their lives better, rather than their own free will, thats their decision. At least they are happy I suppose.
I would agree that most people aren't that happy in high school, and that part of it was figuring out who I was. But I used own free will to chose the thing that made me happy, and that was my religion. And I would argue that I had the strength within myself, but that my religion was what showed me that I had that strengh. If anything it gives me more free will, not less.
BYU would be down with Buffalo and EMU, on my list of schools to attend.
What a stupid rule. Like it's any of the school's business what that kid does in his bedroom.
I say this in full understanding of the code of conduct, religious affiliation, etc. that BYU has.
It's just none of their business.
Likewise, it helps a ton with recruits that are very strong Mormons. I'm guessing Fredette wouldn't have considered a place way out in Utah if he didn't think that they had something special to offer.
Everyone's so busy having a religious debate it looks like nobody noticed that they got smoked tonight by new mexico.
New Mexico had beaten BYU three times in a row before this, so while they would have had a better shot at winning with Davies, The Cougars still were in for a tough game. Totally wrong team for them to play at this juncture style-wise.
Mormonism isn't a real religion.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
Eh, I mean, that's BYU. They're serious. It is... I mean, it is what it is. No point into getting into a discussion on the merits of that... umm... that set of thoughts.
Dear potential recruits: they're serious.
here is a campus i could live with. suddenly Northwestern is my second favorite big10 school.
Point 1: BYU's policy is, for the most part, rather ridiculous.
Point 2: Most religions have some beliefs that when looked at from outside the religion, look pretty ridiculous
Point 3: This country was built upon the right for people to believe ridiculous things freely and without persecution.
Point 4: The country was also built upon people's rights to say how ridiculous other people seem for believing what they do.
Point 5: This isn't some random hypocritical application of an ridiculous rule. This ridiculous rule has been widely known about and applied before. So if you know about the ridiculous rule, either don't break it or don't go to BYU
Point 6: Personally, I wouldn't go to any university that applied draconian rules to my personal life. But that is my choice. When this kid signed on with BYU, he gave them permission to be in his bedroom telling him what he can and can't do. That was obviously a mistake. Maybe next time in his life he will make a better choice.
Transfer to Michigan. I would be okay for a player who likes to have sex with women.