OT: B/R (YTBR) Article on the Dolphins Bullying
Back up off the negs for a second. Yes, it is OT. Yes, it is Bleacher Report. Yes, it is a story that has been beaten to death already. Yes, I read the META thread yesterday. Four strikes aginst me, and that is only in the thread title.
But this is a very insightful article from Ryan Riddle. I found it to be a pretty fair assessment on the BREAKING ESPN NEWS SEGMENT!! He covers it much better than ESPN ever will, so read this, then just turn off the radio or TV when some talking head like Steven A. tries to give you a piece of his mind.
Don't knock it til you read it. You're welcome for the cannon fodder, BiSB.
November 8th, 2013 at 7:50 AM ^
November 8th, 2013 at 7:53 AM ^
...packaged within a quandary.
November 8th, 2013 at 8:02 AM ^
Thanks for posting this. Reports this morning regarding Incognito's behavior at a Dolphin's golf outing with a female volunteer and the new text messges regarding Martin's sister are unbelievable. And the fact that the team put him on a freaking "Leadership Council" (whatever that is suppose to mean) AFTER the incident on the golf course and knowing Incognito's past to me spells doom for lots of people in the organization and not just the guy doing the bullying.
I think Martin was probably different (exponentially smarter) than most of the team and because of that he got the treatment described in the article you posted.
November 8th, 2013 at 8:32 AM ^
While I think intelligence does lend itself to being a bit of an outcast, its the thin-skinned part that really led to his ridicule. I was picked on a lot in middle school, as I think my mind was just wired a bit differently than most.
I learned, especially through sports and being in that environment, was inviting the teasing actually helps stop it. A smart person is pretty quick witted and can throw stuff back. The biggest problem is when you allow people to realize that you are being upset by that kind of stuff.
Put me in the camp that doesn't quite know how to feel on this subject. On one hand, Martin should not be expected to go through this kind of stuff. On the other hand, Martin should have expected to go through this kind of stuff. There are qualities that make someone capable of being a football player. Most people aren't qualified due to their physical skillset. He may not be qualified due to emotional skillset. But then again, you wouldn't expect this behavior in most professional settings. I'm definitely on the fence on this one.
It boils down to: What the players were doing was obviously not morally justifiable. So then, do we expect NFL players to be morally justified in their actions? Or should we expect survival of the fittest?
November 8th, 2013 at 8:59 AM ^
Agreed. And I have vacilated between both camps since the story broke. My issue is more with Dolphin's management and their decision to put a guy like Incognito into a position of leadership, especially when they were acutely aware of his behavior at the golf outing. I think one of the biggest problems Martin was having was that it didnt stop when he became a 2nd year player and was no longer subject to the rookie hazing rituals.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:20 AM ^
PROFESSIONAL, both in terms of the level of play expected and the level of conduct expected in terms of how they conduct themselves in regard to the team dynamic and their personal affairs. They have lived through periods of "bullying" and "hazing" to know that such actions 1) are utterly ineffective forms of "motivation" and result in toxicity between individuals already bonded by a common purpose, and 2) can lead to really unfortunate circumstances including harm to the victim or the perpetrator. They are not excused from exercising the wisdom accumulated through certain life lessons that highs school kids and college kids have not necessarilty learned yet. Survival of the fittest applies in this way, if Jon Martin was not dedicated enough to play the game of football at that level he rides the pine or he is cut. Yes, a franchise may have to eat a contract but then draft better and you won't have to worry about it. Toughness and intensity are a big part of football, and you may either have them or you don't. But not having them does not give coaches or fellow players the right to break societal norms in terms of what is OK and not OK to do or say to another person. Jonathan Martin does not appear to have been fit to play professional football, but that has nothing to do with the acceptaibility of Incognito and everybody else in that organization thinking they have a free pass to engage in whatever form of emotional torment they see fit.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:45 AM ^
capable of being a football player." Yes, those are speed, strength, mental fortitude on the football feild, tolerance of physical pain, elite conditioning, and yes, you need to be able to physically and mentally overpower your competitors on the football field. To say that such a quality cannot be exercised only when appropriate is not accurate, and really letting these guys off the hook in terms of how they need to conduct themselves as people off the football field. I am a lawyer, I am analytical to a fault, can spin really any set of circumstances to effectively prove or disprove any position, and I have an enhanced need for absolutism. None of those qualities are particurlarly effective in my personal affairs or even in work affairs that no not involve actual litigation. In fact, most of them are very detrimental qualities in terms of my everyday functioning. I turn them off. So can they.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:25 AM ^
So then, do we expect NFL players to be morally justified in their actions? Or should we expect survival of the fittest?
I'm sorry, these guys aren't CIA agents or Navy SEALs or something. They play a game for entertainment. They are grown-ass adults who should be held to the same standard as other people. They don't get some moral exception simply because they're professional football players.
If some of the allegations against Incognito are true, it's boardering on criminal. He absolutely does not get a pass because he plays a sport for a living.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:43 AM ^
Good examples of the military, considering they have strict anti hazing policies. Why doesn't the NFL?
November 8th, 2013 at 10:53 AM ^
EDIT: Whoops, I totally misread your comment. I agree with you.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:09 AM ^
This from Brian Phillips at Grantland:
I am here to start a fight, because I'm a man and that's how I solve problems. I'm not here to help you. I am here to f**king hurt you. That's what I've learned in my years as an NFL fan. You have an issue with somebody? You see somebody being stupid? You don't look the other way. You don't back down. You strap on your man boots and you shove it through their teeth. Let me tell you how I know this. I know it because the NFL told me. Take the Dolphins. They suck, but they're still in the NFL. I'm telling it like it is; that's what men do
November 8th, 2013 at 9:28 AM ^
is one of the most juvenile definitions of how a "man" conducts himself that I have ever read. To the extent that I truly cannot tell whether it is an honest assessment or a satire. These are not "men" in the sense that Tyler Durden is a "man," these are "men" with families and children that cant go around punching each other in the face because THAT IS NOT WHAT GROWN MEN DO. They cannot meet at the flag pole after school to have it out for the same reason that any other 30 something cannot, because such decisions can carry real life consequences aside from having anything to do with football. Grown men exercise temperance and virtue. And yes, this can be done between teammates in an inherently violent sport. It is not one or the other. It is not all or nothing.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:43 AM ^
Maybe this excerpt will help you debate whether or not it is satire:
"If you have a penis and feelings, you'd better cut one of them off. I'm here to start a fight."
November 8th, 2013 at 9:47 AM ^
in terms of both whether it is honest or satire. In other news, I need to go get a Ford F 150 and a AR-15 this morning. Everlasting is my pursuit of manhood. What a joke.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:50 AM ^
Pff... if you're looking to compensate, you're gonna need bigger than an F150...
(and I'm not sure it did clarify, it was in fact satire)
November 8th, 2013 at 9:52 AM ^
maybe I just need go ahead and read the whole article before I comment. That is if MEN are allowed to read......
November 8th, 2013 at 9:58 AM ^
Nobody ALLOWS a man to read. He takes the damned book. But because reading is for LITTLE GIRLS and wimps with ASTHMA, the MAN simply inserts the book into the ASS of the first person who looks at him sideways. In this case, substitute book for computer. Same effect.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:01 AM ^
what a bunch DORKS. You know what, all those losers reading, let's wait until they come into the lunch room and then all get up at once. BOO YA.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:10 AM ^
I'm tired of this subject. Every radio show I listen is just beating this subject to death and I've had it.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:20 AM ^
I'll let everybody know.
HEY EVERYBODY.....STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT. THE POSTER FORMALLY KNOWN AS WOLVERINE'S DOMINATE IS TIRED OF THE SUBJECT!
Hope that helps.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:38 AM ^
under the impression that Wolverine Dominate was now "Gustavo." If that is not the case than I may owe Gustavo and apology.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:51 AM ^
No - Gustavo is the poster formally known as "Ghost of some dead AD" I think. I'm 99.9% sure Gnarly Face is/was Dominate. Go back and look at both Gnarly's birth date as well as the overally writing style & general tone for Dominate. They match almost exacty.
November 8th, 2013 at 9:56 AM ^
it is getting hard to sort through these things.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:03 AM ^
If we're keeping track, I used to be RDT, but I ate some of Brian's hair at an meet and greet event by grabbing it from his chair when he went to the podium. I have taken on his persona, and humbly submit myself as the new leader.
November 8th, 2013 at 12:26 PM ^
He's also been "We are the Borg" and "Darth Wolverine."
There's such an easy way to spot him when he comes back with a new username:
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At some point he will mention that he's 31 and he doesn't care about other's opinions.
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He will only refer to Michigan as "M"
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He will downvote most threads, and then elaborate by saying, "why is this a thread"
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Ironically some of the threads he actually talks in are the OT threads about movies and video games, which is pure hypocrisy considering the above bullet point.
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He'll correct grammar, and of course be snarky about it.
Basically the guy is a massive douche who can't seem to quit when all his dopplegangers get Bolivia'd. This has been your guide to spotting the Darth trolls.
November 8th, 2013 at 4:34 PM ^
If that's the case, I'm hoping he'll clarify the difference between a road game and a nuetral-site game for me. I've been having some trouble with it.
Like, was our game against State a home game, since it took place in the state of Michigan, or was it nuetral site, since neither team lives in spartan stadium?
November 8th, 2013 at 9:15 AM ^
Maybe Martin should go to an organization like the Seahawks. Pete Carroll has embraced a more emotionally aware appproach, using social workers and other mental health professionals to deal with that side of the game. Not every player is a neanderthal, and I feel like the smarter, more sensitive ones shouldn't be pushed out of the game because they don't fit into the more traditional organizations. If they perform on the field, it shouldn't matter if they're not up for the crap in the locker room.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:17 AM ^
I didn't know that about Pete Carroll. That seems like a really good approach to running an organization where...you know...people have to work together.
If I owned a billion dollar franchise and had millionaire employees tearing each other apart every day I think I might do something to change the culture.
"Rookie dinners" are the first thing I would ban. It is utter bullshit that veterans, whom presumably have made a very comfortable living are forching rookies to subsidize their lavish lifestyles. The average NFL career is really short. A smart player could set himself up well for the rest of his life but when he is expected to fork over $15,000 to a bunch of overindulgent assholes it hinders his life after football. If Martin would have taken the $15,000 and put it in the market he could expect upwards of $150,000 when he retires. That isn't hazing, it's extortion.
November 8th, 2013 at 11:08 AM ^
Here's a link to the ESPN article:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9581925/seattle-seahawks-use-unusual-…
November 8th, 2013 at 9:46 AM ^
NFL Bleacher Report is really good. The rest? Not so good. NFL Bleacher Reports has legit writers who knows the X's and O's of football and have former NFL players as part of their staff.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:10 AM ^
In general, we as a society are way too quick to defend dbags and blame victims for "letting themselves" be abused by dbags. But, most of the time, these victims are marginalized members of society and there is literally no reasonable defense for bullying.
This NFL situation is so much different, however, because the NFL is such a different beast than the rest of society. Bullying is obviously not the same as typical rookie hazing that the author related, and I doubt you see this kind of bullying in the locker room of a good team. But, the nature of the game and everything the author says make it way less of a black and white decision of what to do.
My problem with all the attention that a story like this gets: it's a terrible forum to discuss the huge problem of bullying that plagues regular society. But media and news outlets and general population types will undoubtedly cite this example and try to fit it to decisions for other bullying. It's just a mess I tell ya.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:20 AM ^
Some poor kid who is bullied at school shouldn't be compared to Martin, who may be a victim but who also chose to play in the NFL. Kids don't choose to go to school.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:19 AM ^
The NFL is very unlikeable to me to the extent that Incognito's behavior is the norm - and it may be to some extent. I don't say this to bash Incognito but rather to say that the whole endeavor of men turning themselves into animals for our amusement is absurd and disgusting...I question my fondness for college football to the extent that NFL culture is the equivalent of college football culture,
November 8th, 2013 at 10:45 AM ^
I'm not sure that they turn into animals because of football. I think that the traits that they have (high testosterone) is likely one of the reasons they are there in the first place. I'm not sure these guys would be any more subdued in real life. That's not to say they are all animalistic, but the ones that are that way, they'd be like that no matter what.
November 8th, 2013 at 10:56 AM ^
It can't help to have a culture that either rewards it (from the players and maybe coaches) and/or turns a blind eye to it (from the front offices and maybe coaches).
November 8th, 2013 at 11:11 AM ^
They're certainly being enabled. Athletes are like gorgeous women. Some choose to be good people, study, form a personality, help others. But others can and do skate by on their gifts, and absorb no wisdom or character along the way.
November 8th, 2013 at 11:15 AM ^
You know, after writing this, I'll expand. They are a "highly desired commodity" as are physicians, beautiful women, and movie stars or musicians. You could lump all of those into the category of "highly desired" and realize that they don't have to form basic human decency to survive. Many of them do, but their skills allow them leeway that guys like us do not get.
November 8th, 2013 at 11:13 AM ^
November 8th, 2013 at 11:59 AM ^
I read the article in a Chrome incognito browser window; was that wrong?
November 8th, 2013 at 5:48 PM ^
Martin played for Harbaugh, a tough dictator type coach in the Schembechler mold who wouldn't tolerate Incognito type behavior on the team. Martin thrived at Stanford to the point where he became a second round NFL draft choice. Jake Long, if I have my timeline down correctly, left the Dolphins just before Martin arrived, thereby leaving an animal like Incognito to assume a leadership position. I certainly don't know Jake Long but with my Michigan colored glasses, I believe that there is a good chance that the locker room tone would have been less harsh with his veteran presence.
November 8th, 2013 at 2:09 PM ^
It was a place that thought conflict was the source of creativity. Get sued for sexual harassment? No problem. Be a tool who makes people not only uncomfertable but incapable of doing there job? No problem. Now none of the people I worked with are still there except the bullies. Room full of engineers have quit and moved on and only under qualified people are left. This is a bad way to run things.