OT: Bill Simmons article on LeBron
A lot of Simmons's articles get posted on here, and I think for good reason. To me, he's one of the best writers out there (along with Brian, of course...). I think his article on Lebron is insightful to say the least.
One more thought I have on why LeBron doesn't seem to have the killer instinct that Jordan had: remember, LeBron was coronated as a king when he entered the league. He was on the cover of SI when he was in high school. Jordan was cut from his high school team as a sophomore. I think Jordan always carried that "nobody believes in me attitude" his whole career (even when everyone did believe in him). Jordan's HOF induction speech is evidence of that.
1) OT
2) Is this site now MgoLeBron?
Without the OT, did you wonder whether Simmons was writing an article about Lebron signing with UM to play tight end? Were you worried that Simmons had written an article about Lebron luring Rodriguez into another shady real estate deal?
Yes to all of the above.
Lebron's friend got into an argument with Braylon, who in turn played for Michigan, which means there is no need for an OT tag!
Forgot to put "OT." I can see how you would be confused from the title that the post is actually about Michigan sports.
Don't click on the thread then. Read another one. What is it about people who feel the need to comment on threads that they obviously aren't interested in?
Not a bad article at all...I generally enjoy what Simmons has to say. Although having a team with both Joakim Noah and LeBron would challenge the Celtics and Lakers as the most hated teams in the league, more championships would be nice in Chicago.
Joakim Noah is so hated he almost makes me Bulls fans forget about Orlando Woolridge.
I was living in France when Florida won their second national championship, and there was some pretty intense Noah-family coverage. Interviews with Papa Noah, profiles of Joakim, bikini pictures of Noah-sister in gossip magazines, you name it.
It was like living in Opposite World.
I think the world of sports has switched from being held hostage by Tiger to being held hostage by LeBron. Here's to a quick decision on his part.
P.S. It's the offseason so I don't mind seeing all the OT threads, including the LeBron ones.
What we really need is a Brett Favre story or two. Will he come back yet again? I'm dying to know.
in due time... in due time.
He'll make sure to announce after mini camp so that he doesn't actually have to participate.
Michael Jordan was the #1 player in his high school class as a senior. He hit the game-winning shot in the national championship game as a freshman. He was The Sporting News player of the year as a sophomore and was named player of the year by several more publications as a junior. He was the best player on the single-greatest amateur basketball team ever in the 1984 Olympics.
Do you really think he came into the league LESS-heralded than LeBron James?
Was he really the #1 player in his high school class as a senior? That's hard to believe given he only played two years of varsity ball.
But anyway, he was only the #3 pick in the 1984 Draft, so I'd have to say that LeBron was more hyped coming in.
No one has ever come into the league MORE-heralded than Lebron, no one can debate that.
IIRC, LeBron was the national HS player of the year as a Junior.
If he was as heralded as LeBron James, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have gone third in the draft, no?
The big difference is that the media attention showered on the #1 player in the 1980's is a far cry from the media attention that has surrounded Lebron since he became a teenager. Jordan may have been a big deal at the time, but Lebron permeated the social conscience when he was 18. Jordan was just regarded as an elite high school player at that age, and probably only to a subset of sports fans.
I don't think Jordan's regular season high school games were broadcast on national television.
Jordan was the number 3 pick in the draft. LeBron was a no-brainer #1 and that draft was essentially considered the LeBron lottery. LeBron merely making his first appearance in an NBA game was a much-hyped deal - no doubt much more so than Jordan's first game.
That's all a little beside my point though - my point was that LeBron, likely from the time he first played organized basketball, was destined to be a superstar. Jordan clearly was not - even as late as his junior year in high school. I think that may have contributed to Jordan's killer instinct and chip on his shoulder that LeBron appears to be lacking (that's just my hypothesis, obviously - no way to prove it...).
Jordan was cut from his high school varsity during tryouts of his sophomore year. He only played a handful of games on JV then was brought up. Supposedly, Jordan had a bad attitude and this was the coaches' way of showing him who was in control.
Yes, no player had to deal with the kind of hype Lebron did. That's just the world we live in. Jordan didn't turn on SC and see his face on it every 5 mins asking if he was the next chosen. Or the internet buzz. Jordan never had to come in as the next anything.
Jordan fell to number 3 in the draft? Not to my knowledge. He was there because it wasn't completely obvious he was the very best in a long time.
But this was at a time when it was still thought to be a big man's League, so Hakeem went #1, and Portland had already just gotten Drexler at SG, so they passed on Jordan to draft...Sam Bowie.
it wasn't obvious that he was the forthcoming greatest ever. if you're not sure who to pick, your analysis probably didn't say that one of the three was likely the best of all time.
May be totally incorrect, but found this story that Delonte West had a little smoething, something going on with Lebron's mom (a) incredibly weird, and if true (b) incredibly sad and a little hilarious.
Just like Michael and Tiger had and they were successful. Now that Tiger has no more white women in his routine, he plain sucks.
Can't believe I'm defending Lebron here, but the comparisons to Jordan and the assertions that he can't get to the next level a la Jordan, aren't necessarily fair. Remember, Jordan didn't win a championship until his 7th season (he was 28 then). Lebron just finished his 7th season (he's 25 now). Also take into account that Lebron came straight from HS. Yeah, he had the NBA ready body, but unlike Jordan who refined his game at the highest level in college, Lebron had to make a bigger jump (from HS to NBA) and a younger age.
IMO Michael Jordan will always be the greatest of all time, but you can't start saying already that Lebron is that far behind where Jordan was at this stage of their careers.
So let me get this straight...
- Jordan won his first title in his seventh season.
- Lebron is winless in terms of titles throughout seven seasons.
- Jordan went on to win a TON more titles
- Lebron is already behind Jordan in terms of titles
How can he "be like Mike"? The article was pretty clear: Lebron is not wired the same way Jordan is. Lebron is a "nice guy" - not the guy who is going to stand up at his HoF speech and take pot shots at all the "haters" in his life.
"Lebron is a "nice guy" - not the guy who is going to stand up at his HoF speech and take pot shots at all the "haters" in his life."
And that's what I like about him.
a title but again it took Jordan a while to get going. I think he is leaving Ohio and I hope he does because that town and state don't deserve him. Also if he goes to Chicago or NY and they add another big name star watch out actually just the Bulls the Knicks will screw it up.
Also I hate that Lebron & Wade are free agents this year it is really taking away from my Magic teams run which is so under the radar right now. Since the All Star break they are lights out and I know Dwight Howard isn't a scoring monster but the guy is just nasty player and a winner. He doesn't get the hype of Lebron or Wade, Kobe etc but he should. Also wanted to change up the posts since Lebron will become a word out of everyone's mouth all summer.
Momentum plays such a huge role in the NBA, the Magic were a Courtney Lee tip in away from possibly winning the title LAST year. When LA had a better team (you cannot convice me that Artest > Ariza, unless your entire team rides on the shoulders of your SF's scoring (Thunder)).
Magic v. Suns - NBA Finals ratings nightmare.
Magic v. Lakers is probably a good enough matchup for TV - they can push the rematch angle. This has to be the odds-on-favorite in Vegas to happen as well.
The selective memory people have about Jordan gets annoying. He only became a winner (at an NBA championship level) after Magic/Kareem, Bird, and Zeke all got old/retired/caught AIDS. It shouldn't surprise anyone that he started winning championships when he no longer had to beat great teams led by legendary players to do it, but got to go up against Drexler/Porter, Payton/Kemp, aging Stockton/Malone, and teams whose second best players were arguably guys like "Thunder" Dan Majerle, John Starks, and Rik Smits.
He was and remains an asshole, but that is viewed as "competitive drive" by the MSM ever since he cleaned up against the weak competition of the early-mid 90's NBA. Put in the same situation, I think Lebron wins just as many championships.
But as a counter - and I agree with most of your assertion - it is difficult to truly ascertain how he played against the likes of Magic/Bird/Zeke/etc. because he was still a young player and his team was not as strong as the those other squads. I went to a couple of Pistons' playoff games during that era, and while I was still pretty young, I do remember Jordan putting up big numbers but nobody else on the team really stepped up. Looking at his stats for the 89-90 playoff run, you see a guy average 36/7/7 while also shooting over 50% from the field and 80% from the line. Those are monster numbers, but when Scottie Pippen is putting up 19 and Horace Grant is the only other starter in double figures scoring and the only other guy to out-rebound your shooting guard, you are in trouble. That seems to be the problem with Lebron - he puts up good numbers, championship-level numbers, but nobody else on that team is anyware close to his level. That's why he probably needs to go somewhere like Chicago or Dallas, where the parts are in place and he would have other guys on his team that could pick up the slack when he just wasn't on.
Lebron has never had the kind of talent around him that Jordan did later in his career with Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, and Ron Harper (a guy who was on his way to a really great career before getting stuck with the Clippers and injuring his knee). I can't think of another star in that era who got a better supporting cast. The same can certainly not be said for Lebron's teams in Cleveland, yet he still has them performing at a high level in the regular season and has already single-handedly made the Finals once even though he's only 25. He's also been a two-time league MVP. It isn't like he hasn't performed at a high individual level.
Jordan was a great player and one of (though I don't think THE) best players of all time. At the same time, I think a lot of very good players could have earned the "winner" label he received if they had been given the same supporting cast and faced the same competition as Jordan did throughout the second half of his career. Assuming Lebron couldn't do it when he has already had more success at an earlier age than Jordan just seems unfair to me at this point.
I agree. I guess all you can say is that you play the hand you are dealt, and it seems like LeBron will need to get out of Cleveland (or there will need to be some major changes in the Cleve) before we will know if it was the player or the team that failed these past two years.
Come on. I'm a Knicks fan, so I have no love of Jordan, but you're speaking as someone who never watched the guy play. You can talk about the "supporting cast" he had, etc., but at the end of every meaningful close game that team played, Jordan had his hands all over it - whether it was finding Bill Wennington for a dunk with 2 seconds left, or scoring 50+. He constantly went on 1-man runs to bring his team back, and always always always without a round left in the chamber. Jordan would have won or gone down gunning when he saw nobody else stepping up, LeBron kept feeding them.
I'm sorry, did you say Tony Kukoc was a great player?
I said Ron Harper was on track to have a great career before being dealt to the Clippers and hurting his knee. Feel free to read my post again if you like. I would/did say, however, that I would certainly take Kukoc over guys like Hornacek or "Don't Call Me Brian" Russell. Jordan had far and away the best supporting cast of any player in the nineties in an era of pretty weak competition compared to the decades immediately before and after.
If you think Kukoc was better than Hornacek, you're nuts. Kukoc averaged fewer points, rebounds, and assists per game, and only had 2 seasons in which he scored more than Hornacek's AVERAGE. Hornacek was also a drastically better shooter.
This entire thread, you've either been ignorant of basic incontravertible facts that cannot be debated, like who Jordan played. I'm just unclear if you're doing so intentionally.
Kukoc came off the bench in Chicago when Jordan was there (the time this comparison is relevant) so it shouldn't be a shock that his numbers aren't as good as starter Jeff Hornacek. I would guess the numbers per minute are pretty comparable once that is controlled for, though I am not going to bother looking it up. Luckily I have functioning eyes and have seen both players play. Anyone who would take Hornacek over Kukoc at the time they met in the Finals (again, when the comparison is relevant and Hornacek was in his mid thirties) is completely high.
I don't want to start the whole dead argument up again, but I am curious who you think the best player of all time is. I'm not sure I agree that it's not Jordan, but I'm open to suggestions, and I've pretty much agree 100% with all the rest of your posts in this thread.
Sure, he missed Bird, Zeke, and Magic, largely.
He didn't miss Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Miller, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Shaq, Penny, Mourning, etc.
He did miss Robinson and Hakeem in that he never faced either in the finals (nor did he ever really face a quality center with the title on the line). My point (and I don't think it is a very controversial one unless people have been brainwashed by ESPN to believe Jordan is infallible) is that anyone would choose to face teams with Barkley playing alongside Johnson, Majerele, and not much else. Stockton/Malone (in addition to being at the end of their careers) had Hornacek, Russell, and Greg Freaking Ostertag as their starting lineup. Not quite the same as beating Laker teams with Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper/Thompson, etc. Obviously there were good players in the 90's (just like the 80's), but rarely did you see more than one or two on a team. Jordan never faced a real quality challenger when he was winning titles (and failed to even reach the finals when he had to face better teams early in his career).
Jordan was a great player, but he didn't win untiil he was playing on easily the best team of his era. I'm pretty sure Ewing would have traded Starks for Pippen and Co. and I would imagine things turning out differently if he had.
If that's your logic, Zeke missed Bird (they didn't beat the Celtics until Bird missed the entire season, and he was already 32 anyway), Kareem, Barkley, Dominique. His two championships were over near mirror images of the teams that you deride Jordan for beating. But anyway, weren't those guys I listed still in the league? Jordan had to play them, right?
Also, it's impossible to compare eras. Those Laker and Celtic teams you're holding up as the peak of hoops had 3 HOF players on them. Are we going to say Bird isn't a top 3 or 4 player because his supporting cast was too good?
Malone was "at the end" of his career? He played 8 more seasons!
And they never face a quality challenger? The defending two-time NBA champion Pistons with two HOF players wasn't a quality challenger? Come on. You're either operating outside of facts intentionally, or you have no clue what they are.
Show me a team Jordan beat whose star player had a better (or even comparable) supporting cast than he did. Until then, you are not disproving anything I actually said, especially as it relates to current criticism of James.
If you look at that 1991 Lakers and the 1991 Pistons, the supporting casts are similar.
Vs. the Lakers, Worthy and Pippen are close to a wash - they rebounded the same, shot about the same, Pippen was a better passer, Worthy a better scorer.
Scott and Grant, the 3rd best players are hard to compare. Grant was a moderate scorer, and solid rebounder. Scott was a better scorer, decent passer. I'd give a slight edge to Horace, though.
Sam Perkins scored more, shot better, rebounder better, and blocked more shots than Bill Cartwright.
Vlade Divac and Paxson are also tough to compare, but Divac played more, scored more, rebounded well, and blocked shots. Paxson's main responsibility was to make threes, nothing else. Edge to Divac.
AC Green and Armstrong were both role players, and tough to compare. Armstrong's one strongsuit was that he was a good shooter, Green a good defender/rebounder. I think the arc of their careers shows Green was a better player, but it's debatable for this season
Vs. the Pistons, I'd say that Pippen was appreciably better than Dumars, the Pistons 2nd banana.
At the 3rd level, though Grant scored more, I think Rodman was superior in every aspect of the game.
Laimbeer was a much better player in every facet than Cartwright.
Vinny Johnson v. Paxson. I'd call it a toss. Both were in to score, mostly, Johnson was asked to do it in larger volume and shot worse as a result.
Aguiree vs. Armstrong is a toss as well, IME. Both were just there to score.
BUT, then the Pistons ALSO had Buddha and and Salley playing big minutes, the Bulls rotation dips into roll players not nearly as good.
So, I'd say that the supporting casts, yes, were pretty comparable. If you look at "win shares" from that season, the bulls minus Jordan were worse than the Lakers minus Magic and Pistons minus Zeke (which makes sense, as they won 50 games despite Zeke missing 30+ games.
You could even argue somewhat reasonably that the Cavs team in 1992, with Price, Daugherty, Nance, Ehlo, Hotrod Williams, Terrell Brandon, and John Battle was close. Price and Daugherty are worse than Jordan and Pippen (though still good) but Nance was significantly better than Grant, Ehlo was patter than Paxson, Hotrod was much better than Cartwright, and Battle and Armstrong were a wash.
Both Scott and Worthy got hurt in Game 4 when the series was still just 2-1. I think we would agree that those injuries strongly swung the balance in Jordan's favor.
I think the fact that it is this close just illustrates that Jordan didn't really lift up lesser teams to victory but rather was the best player in the league on a team whose other guys could go toe to toe with (if not beat) anybody. This is especially true later in his career as the Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kukoc, etc. team had a significant edge over everyone they faced even if you took Jordan and the other team's star out of the equation. The fact that the 1994 Bulls won 55 games, won a playoff series, and took the Knicks to seven games without Jordan speaks volumes to me about what MJ had at his disposal once they got the ball rolling in Chicago.
Well, they had a hall-of-fame player at the peak of his career and a respectable roster. If your argument is that Jordan is the difference between a loss in the quarterfinals and an NBA championship, I won't argue.
I mean, the first year the Lakers had a full season of Kobe without Shaq, they won 46 games (4 less than that Bulls team) with their top minutes getters as follows:
Odom (40 minutes)
Smush Parker (33.8)
Kwame Brown (27.5)
Chris Mihm (26.1)
Devean George (21.7)
So...yeah. A team with 1 elite player and a solid supporting cast will do well - teams with 1 elite player and bad supporting casts still do OK.