The Vuelta? Why? The race in Colorado has been fantastic.
I don't hink this is the end of the story.
The Vuelta? Why? The race in Colorado has been fantastic.
I don't hink this is the end of the story.
Except it was my mom who read his book herself while lying in hospital beds dying from cancer. She wore the yellow bracelet with hope and pride and found great encouragement from his story. The stories then about his doping only made her laugh, given the horrible things that are pumped into patients' veins in order hopes of beating cancer. Feel free to sanction the man for his sports competition awards and his abrasive personality, but it'd be a major loss to remove the hope and courage he's been able to inspire in other cancer survivors.
1. It is Cycling, I personally have no idea if they even did that little race in France this year...
2. He cheated, no one recovers from Cancer and wins like 7 straight world championships.
3. Everyone else was cheating too, so color him Barry Bonds or something. Doesn't mean he didn't smoke those fools.
4. Congrats to him for all he has helped.
5. Whoever thought of the Livestrong stuff hopefully is enjoying a lucrative career in marketing.
Who cares? It was fun to watch. That's a hell of a run even for someone who is cheating. Not to mention all the fellow cyclers he competed against who were doping too, and still couldn't beat him.
So basically, it's the best doper wins. His titles are in doping, not cycling.
Lance may or may not be guilty. His actions today are the actions of a guilty man. However, if his accolades are stripped because he refuses to fight doping charges, I believe the wins/rewards should be rewarded to others, such as the second place finisher in respective years. Did no one win the Tour in that year? That doesn't jive.
I want to see the Tour wins awarded those who deserved them. For this process to be fair, the new winners will have to submit proof that they did not use any sort of performance-enhancing drug. This proof will have to exceed that of Armstrongs', so clean tests are simply not enough. There must somehow be further evidence (which, of course, is impossible).
The second-place finishers are convicted dopers. So are the third-place finishers and most of the other guys in the top ten. Nobody was clean.
Nobody won the Heisman in 2005.
...this was sadly inevitable. I have no idea whether he cheated or not, but the powers that be wanted him dethroned. Did the controlling legal authorities offer quid pro quo arrangements with these other cyclists in exchange for their testimonies? I'm tempted to think they did.
I lost my wife to cancer two years ago, so to me, anyone who survives systemic cancer and goes on to win arguably the most difficult physical test on the planet seven times in a row deserves the benefit of the doubt.
No positive tests? No case in my mind.
Sorry about your loss....we had a scare with my father 3 years ago and it was terrible. Couldn't imagine having it be my wife.
1999 -- Alex Zulle. Admitted doper in Festina affair.
2000 -- Jan Ullrich. Convicted doper, revealed during Operation Puerto scandal. Raced for ultra-dirty Team Telekom.
2001 -- Jan Ullrich.
2002 -- Joseba Beloki. Connected to Operation Puerto investigation.
2003 -- Jan Ullrich.
2004 -- Andreas Kloden. Alleged to use the Freiburg clinic for illegal transfusions (blood doping). Has spent almost his entire career, including 2004, on teams with organized doping programs.
2005 -- Ivan Basso. Convicted doper through Operation Puerto investigation. Has since returned to racing in much less impressive form.
You could also mention that the guys who won immediately after, Alberto Contador and Floyd Landis, were both dopers as well.
Is it cheating if everyone's doing it?
I would say yes becuase it's not uniform cheating. Some people have access to the best stuff so it becomes not who is the best competitor but who has the best pharmacist.
The Choice is Obvious:
Is there a summary somewhere of the evidence against him? Are his claims of passing hundreds of tests legit? ...and how did he pass them?
edit: D'oh! link right above this, while a year old, looks like a pretty good start.
I looked up to him for so long. This is heartbreaking
To cope with those outfits? I love how people ride in those and are going ten miles an hour, or not in a race. I think I will wear full pads to my next flag football game.
If Armstrong passed so many tests in 1999-2005, what good is testing? Why couldn't baseball players figure out how to pass tests as well as Armstong? If testing in that time period was that worthless and doping was that effective, then there are likely champions in many other sports that didn't get caught.
Because it was easier to test for strength doping (steroids) than it was to test for endurance doping (epo, blood doping, etc.). A baseball player wouldn't have gotten much use out of a cyclist's doping regimen.
While strength doping would help more than endurance doping, endurance doping would still be beneficial in sports where a great deal of time is spent training.
Maybe one of the football players or coaches here could weigh in, but I don't see the benefits of blood doping and the like for football and I've never heard a suggestion that anyone might have done it.
Soccer, on the other hand, with its limited substitutions...rumors and allegations have been rampant there for years.
Thanks. That does a lot to explain things for me.
Ah, you're starting to stumble on an ugly truth: Many baseball players have learned how to beat the tests. And players in other sports. Testing is a detterent, but it's not perfect. It gets better as they develop new testing procedures, but the battle between the testers and the cheaters is ongoing.
Doping is a lot more widespread than anyone wants to believe.
...I'm thinking of college football. Endurance doping may not be ideal for the sport, but training is a year-round marathon.
I can't figure out why football players don't blood dope. You jam your system with your own red blood cells prior to Sunday's game. Why wouldn't that help? It should increase time in aerobic metabolism and decrease anaerobic, right? If so that'd be advantageous.
If there is a real competitive benefit to it, then they do blood dope and are not caught. However, the physical condition required for regularly substituted football players isn't quite as high as in some other sports with no rest periods, so it may not be worth it.
But football players definitely cheat. The first usable tests for HGH just came out this summer, and people have known that HGH is an effective doping substance for over a decade. You think nobody used it just because there wasn't a test for it? Even the stuff that is tested for can be dodged and suppressed. Doping is widespread in football. No question about it.
He fought cancer but the USADA was too much.. I smell B.S. He cheated to get ahead and he cashed in on it.. He would have lost and he knew it...To say that this was witch hunt is garbage..
All the other cyclists that get caught seem to get a 2 year ban? Last month I watched Vinokourov win a gold medal after being convicted of doping a few years ago. Contador is riding the Vuelta as I write this and he go caught only a couple years ago?
What is up with the lifetime ban? I assume this will apply to triathlon as well so no Kona.
The lifetime ban is not just a product of using; it is a product of a conspiracy to distribute and administer to others. That is, his whole team. It's a bigger deal and the reason groups like the USADA are so interested.
If Lance had simply doped himself he probably could have dropped off the map. But in the Tour, you need a strong team to control the peloton and control the climbs, and to have that kind of team Lance needed to have juiced teammates. So they took care of it.
Numerous people in this thread say most cyclists were doping. So why is Armstrong the chief conspirator? Ulrich was his biggest competitor and Ulrich had Kloden and Vino for a few years. All were caught doping so how could you argue that Postal/Discovery was a conspiracy but T-Mobile was not? Seems to me that Armstrong gets a raw deal with this lifetime ban. Now I am biased because I am a triathlete and wanted to see how he would do in Kona which looks to be permanently off at this point.
He cheated in that he (most probably) took PEDs that are against the rules. But in the sense that he gained some competitive advantage, it's moot because EVERYONE was taking PEDs. I mean, ban a substance you can't even test for? why bother at all? In the end, he still smoked all the other dopers, and by the way, was better at not getting caught.
I'm not sure why the governing bodies are digging this up, it's really not in anyone's interests. What are they trying to prove, there's a decade of cycling that was totally illegitimate with no winners? The only thing I can think of is to make a point that just because everyone is doing it, just because there are presently no effective controls, doesn't mean they won't come after you later.
let em juice!
Too many guys have died an early death to allow that.
People take a calculated risk and suffer the consequences. That is individual freedom. (No politics)
as defense for Neil...I mean Lance.
If you want a visual representation of what doping did to cycling during Armstrong's run, click here:
It's startling. I'm sorry I couldn't find it earlier in the thread, when more people would see it. This shows how corrupt the sport was, though--and I'm saying that as a loyal fan.
And now you can add Frank Schleck to the list, although I'm surprised he wasn't already added as I thought he had tested positive once before, OR that one of his entourage was busted bringing drugs over the border in their car at one point.
I never drank the Lance kool-aid. He cheated on his wife, who deserved much better. He wasn't on the up-and-up with Sheryl Crow, either. Cheat on wife, cheat on girlfriend, cheat on bicycle races. He may be able to run for president someday with that report card, but he's never been a hero to me.
There is ZERO objective evidence that he violated cycling rules. He took and passed every drug/doping test administered.
The USADA is a joke and it's opinions/actions are irrelevant to reality.
Lance is still a 7 time winner of the Tour de France and innocent until proven guilty (which cannot happen unless new objective evidence surfaces against him).
This is beyond ridiculous. Responsible media should ignore this story as a farce.
This reads like a story straight out of the ONION - "Cyclist passes all drug/doping tests over his entire career but is stripped of his titles based on the testimony of cheaters."
It's sad how many people (just reading through this thread, alone) will never be able to enjoy the few times in any of our lives that we witness a "best performance/athlete we will ever see" because they've convinced themselves that being the absolute best just HAS to be the result of cheating. How sad...
It is sad. Unfortunately, that's not the fault of the people who write that doping is widespread. It is the fault of the dopers and the sports that refused to address the issue for years. Cycling's governing body, the UCI, is extremely culpable in the nasty reputation the sport has. Bud Selig turned a blind eye to doping in Baseball for a decade that saw formerly sacrosanct records rendered irrelevant because they were broken by known cheaters.
You want to believe, that's fine; but you are consistently ignoring the widespread evidence and arguments against the person you are defending. You claim not to be a die-hard fan, yet you dismiss the testimony of dozens of eye-witnesses and accept the testimony of one man. You dismiss the scientific evidence. You overlook everything that implicates guilt, including the actions of the man you defend.
Lance's story can still be inspiring, but I don't believe it's necessary to ignore the truth in the telling of it. And the truth is, he cheated to win.
And it's not the fault of the authorities or of the "haters" that it is out there. It is the fault of the athletes who cheated.
if I understand this correctly, a guy trying to skirt the rules by doing some form of doping ran a more successful cover up scheme than most of (all?) the other guys - who were also trying to skirt the rules, but who were not as clever in the cover up. Do I have that right? *yawn*
Maybe it's because I'm half-drunk, sitting on a train for the next few hours headed home, but in The Grand Scheme of Things, I'm having a hard time understanding why blood doping (or steroids, etc.) is a big deal. Consider that even the military gives amphetamines ("go pills") to pilots so that they can fly longer missions while remaining alert; it is not illegal if properly prescribed and administered.
But if "everyone is doing it", the argument for prohibiting it becomes weaker. Even the line of thought that proscribes to an "unfair" distribution of "good pharmacists" versus "bad pharmacists" is moot, because richer athletes, nations, etc., can also afford better training facilities, programs and other forms of support. It's not for nothing that the largest nations on earth, with their huge training programs, win the most medals and championships and countries in sub-Saharan Africa don't (I'm not sure how one dopes up for curling, but maybe one of our Canadian MGoMembers can fill me in).
I believe that so long as the risks of doping and steroid use, etc., are made abundantly clear to participants, if they choose to pursue those means to their desired ends, God bless 'em. If they rip their arms out in a dead lift at the All-Drug Olympics (a la Saturday Night Live), well, they knew the risks before hand, so quit yer bitchin'.