Trying to start a thread that wont divolve into a flame war or something?
Trying to start a thread that wont divolve into a flame war or something?
You really are the worst.
Why, because I was one of the biggest Rich Rod supporters on the board, and after he was fired I realized there was no point in moping around about it, and so I decided to be just as all in for the next coach as I was for Rich Rod, to try and do my very small part in making sure the same bullshit didn't happen to him?
Sorry I'm not a massive, flaming hypocrite like you.
Same bullshit? Rich Rod actually improved during his time here, Hoke has regressed massively. Lest the board forget, Michigan could EASILY have three more losses on this season, NW, Akron and UConn.
Rich Rod improved, but the fact of the matter is, it's not exactly difficult to improve when you start out so far in the shitter.
Lest we forget just how awful 3-9 was.
With the team he inherited, what else was he going to do? Threet couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and Sheridan was smart but didn't have the athletic ability required to be a QB at this level.
Bo/Lloyd/Gary would havemaybe ended up 5-7 or 6-6 with that team.
I am aware of all of the pro-RR arguments. I helped to write them.
The moral of the story is don't hire a coach who only coaches one side of the ball, and if you do, make damn sure the coordinator on the other side of the ball has a proven track record longer than one or two years hitching a ride on the shoulders of NFL caliber QBs or defensive ends. Hoke and RichRod are two sides of the same coin.
Michigan helped screw RR by not giving him the requisite amount of cash to bring in Casteel right off the bat.
Not that he helped himself via his subsequent coaching hires, but he clearly would have benefitted from having the resources to bring in a competent DC.
Actually, the moral of the story is that if you have more than enough money to give to a coach to hire the DC he wants, then fucking give it to him.
Or RR could have taken less money like Hoke did to get the DC he wanted.
IIRC, Rich Rod's contract was 6 years $15 million.
When Lloyd Carr retired in 2007, Rodriguez agreed to a six-year, $15-million contract. It stipulates that he will be paid a $2.5 million buyout if fired. U-M conceivably could have fired him for the NCAA violations without the buyout, a provision allowed in his contract, but Brandon has previously said the NCAA troubles did not warrant dismissal.
Hoke's contract is 6 years $18 million. Source: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20110330/FREE/110339985/brady-hokes...
New University of Michigan football coach Brady Hoke on Monday signed a six-year contract potentially worth $18 million or more, the university said today.
Bring back voting. Facts and links deserve an upvote.
Still an idiot, I see.
With the team he inherited, what else was he going to do?
He originally inherited Ryan Mallett, let's not forget, and also Justin Boren. You can call those guys traitors or whatever, but they were talented guys that RichRod couldn't convince to stay. Also, Adrian Arrington went pro despite not really being a highly-regarded prospect. Part of the recruiting job a new coach has to do is to convince the current players to stay, and he struggled there. Compare that to Beilein, who convinced Manny and DeShawn to stay, probably in part because he kept around Mike Jackson from the previous staff (whereas RichRod pretty much fired everybody).
OH MY REVISIONIST HISTORY. Please read third and long. Stop making things up.
Read last year's HTTV that showed Third and Long was full of crap.
I am going to make it my mission to get the two authors together to agree that YOU are wrong in the way that you characterize the Bacon book and the HTTV article.
I realize this must be a terribly shitty day for you. It's my lonely task to make it worse.
Y'all done did it now.
Than you did last week when your favorite team lost.
But that you spend your days planning this shit means you're right about one thing; you must be terribly sad and lonely.
The guy still does FOIA requests on the Freep's FOIA requests to try to catch them with egg on their face.
FOIA requests on FOIA requests. Think about that. It must be fun living in the past.
It had some considerable value; showing that the Freep -- and particularly Michael Rosenberg -- never tried to to get any documents (and thereby telegraphing his ongoing vendetta) until after the story showed up on their front page. And it was at that point, after the fact, that the Freep's real investigative reporter, Jim Schaefer, decided to, uh, ask for documents. Before that time, the only thing that Rosenberg/Snyder had done was to ask if the football program had ever copped to any "Major" violations. So that they could later suggest that what they were uncovering was a major violation (they did their darndest to make it so, unlike Maryland a year later which self-reported secondary violations), and that Michigan hade never before been found guilty of any major violations in football.
You, Bando, must be the last guy in the Michigan blogosphere who still has any sympathy for the Free Press.
Rest assured that if I could figure out anything in the future -- including a FOIA request -- that would hurt the Free Press, Snyder and/or Rosenberg, I would do it. But I just did it once, and it was in the critical period of the NCAA investigation. When almost no one in Detroit media was calling out the Freep for its malevolence.
This is a fun thread.
At best you have a stalemate: one man's word against another. At worst you have Craig Ross' interpretation of what happened based on his personal knowledge of Lloyd Carr (speculation) against John Bacon's book of what happened based on testimony received by several party members involved (although some of it is undoubtedly hearsay).
Even if you assume Craig Ross' interpretation is as likely to have occurred as John Bacon's book, it still means that Snarling Wolverine's interpretation of what happened is also "full of crap." So... this thread just has plenty of assholes:
(start at 0:43)
You are actually the one that is full of shit. Third and Long may not be gospel, but it is very far from a gossip mag.
I read the book. Where does it specify that RichRod is blameless for the departures of all the starters? The only one it goes into detail about is Boren, and that explanation is a little dubious given that the "lazy" Boren went on to start for some excellent Ohio teams.
It suggests that Carr was less than fully-supportive of RichRod, yes, but I suspect that had a lot to do with (as the book notes) RichRod making Carr's assistants wait for hours to re-interview and then turning them all down anyway. Carr had been the one to reach out to Rich in the first place, and then Rich turned around and did that to his guys. I could understand if he felt betrayed.
Again, note the difference: Beilein recognized the value of continuity and kept some Amaker assistants, even though TA had been fired and he really didn't have to. Carr left behind a program that was very stable, and still RichRod decided to let everyone go anyway. Small wonder that a lot of the players he inherited weren't excited to play for him.
How many of RR's assistants are still here at UM? Doesn't Hoke value consistency?
Whoosh goes the point.
See;Carr leaving via retiring and stable program bit.
See; Rich Rod getting fired.
See; Difference between those two things.
see: snarling wolverine's reply below
stable? firing the DC 2 years before retiring?
The whole notion that RR should have or must have kept assistants around is a bit too much IMO, which is why I posted what I did. Coaches come in and replace entire staffs all the time. It is a risk you take whenever you hire someone from outside your coaching pipeline.
I see his reply, and his suggestion that we keep coach Frey is ridiculous condiering Hoke and Borges do not run the same offense or blocking schemes as Rich Rod.
If you can name one person from Rich Rod's staff you would have wanted to keep, who would it have been? No one on the offensive staff, other than Jackson was going to stay. They're not MANBALL guys, and did we really want to keep anyone from his defensive staff?
So, who ya got?
Are you sure that Frey couldn't coach any other blocking scheme? He was at South Florida for a long time before coming to WVU in 2007, and then to Michigan. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember USF as a zone team.
I could be completely wrong on that front and if so, I retract my statement, but I believe South Florida ran a spread similar to Rich Rod under Jim Leavitt. I couldn't tell you if they ran a zone blocking scheme. I remember the Matt Grothe led squads, but that was a little later, still under Leavitt though.
Now that you mention it, I think you could argue that Hoke should have kept a couple of RichRod's offensive assistants (especially Frey on the OL), actually.
But the bigger point is that if you inherit a stable, successful program (as we were in 2007), you shouldn't need to change everything. That can backfire, as we saw.
What big time coach EVER keeps a substantial portion of an old regime?
Coaches develop relationships and trust with their own staffs that make transitions SMOOTHER, not rougher.
The fact that a coach the tenure the length of Lloyd's was stepping down practically demands wholesale change. Particularly if it was rotting from the inside out.
Would RR have been just fine with DeBord & English? That's insane.
I don't fault Hoke or RR for any transition changes, you have to establish your authority & identity.
In hindsight, Frey should have stayed, (& Jackson should have retired, etc.)
But only interum coaches keep the much of an old guard around for any length of time.
A new HC has every right assembling his new staff! Why would you ever keep leftovers? If Harbaugh came in as the new coach instead of RR, he would have replaced all of LC coaches. I'm sure LC would have hard feelings but Harbaugh would want to shake things up.
I never get into these flame wars about RR on here but one thing is certain, and goes for both Lloyd and that asshole at the free press, you don't throw the program under the bus because you don't like how things didn't go your way. Loyalty to Michigan should always come first and foremost. If Moeller doesn't get drunk and wild out he never even sees that job. It was a great opportunity and he should have took it upon himself to make sure that the following regime had all the support he had himself. I'm sick and tired of hearing about poor Lloyd.
But it's easier to talk crap after a brutal loss.
Facts don't matter in the immediate aftermath.
Yeah, let's take the side of the class acts that are Ryan Mallett and Justin Boren now.
I'm not "taking their side" so much as noting that it was certainly in RichRod's best interests to come to common ground with them. We saw what happened without them. And we saw them go on to star at Arkansas and Ohio.
Do you have any idea what Mallett was like when he was here? He was one foot out the door BEFORE the coaching change. His own WRs couldn't stand him and Carr threw transfer papers at him more than once.
Carr did the "Go ahead and transfer" thing with a lot of guys, including Chris Perry. Most got it together and stayed.
It's funny, the whole "the other players hated Ryan Mallett" thing gets so much traction... Yet three months after he transferred, he was back in Ann Arbor, where he showed up at Dance Marathon in the middle of the night with Henne, Hart, and a pile of other players, looking like they liked each other just fine.
Don't get me wrong, Ryan had a reputation for being a pretty tremendous dbag from the second he arrived on campus (and I definitely saw it in action a few times here and there), but at the end of the day, that could be said for a lot of star athletes.
was a dick--and everyone knew it at the time. You need better examples.
I dislike rich rod and did since his days at wvu so maybe dismiss what I say, but to pretend like their isn't a huge difference between 3-9 and 6-6 is laughable, thats pretty much the exact value of a coach is whether they would take similar teams to different records. Also can't the same argument be said about hoke, how the hell is he supposed to win games without an offensive line? which is in fact entirely rich rods fault.
They could also easily have 3 more wins. I fail to see your point.
Against PSU (wins over ILL and PUR), NEB (@home and a team that almost lost to a Wyoming team, which gave up 80 today), and Iowa (with a +3!!! TO margin).
Would you really be upset if our team was 10-1 even with that being the schedule?
In fairness, we should add that Iowa, Nebraska and Penn State could also very well have wound up in the W column.
But also, Indiana was so much closer than the score of that game indicated and should be included along with UConn. Akron and NW were both one play away from being a loss.
And we couldn't have had any more losses in 2010? I remember a 3-OT win over Illinois, a last-second win over IU and an escape over UMass.
RichRod inherited a program that had gone to 33 straight bowl games and hadn't had a losing B1G season in 40 years. He promptly posted three straight losing B1G seasons and only went to one bowl (which we lost by 38 points). After three years of him we were worse than we'd been under Carr. That's not improving the program. We were improved only relative to his total failure in year 1.
Using your logic, Hoke should have done zero coaching in 2011 so we'd have started out 3-9, thus making the next two years look good in comparison.
He "inherited a program" whose recruiting was floating slowly downward (this has been discussed already). He also "inherited" Nick Sheridan and Steven Threet. Boren transferred because he didn't like hustling between plays. Stop acting as if he "inherited" an Aston Martin and promptly drove it through potholes while never getting it serviced. More like a Corvette that he stripped and attempted to rebuild.
Well. Tinkered with the engine and left the brakes to GERG.
Go back and read the archives of this site in December 2007. You won't see anyone predicting a 3-9 disaster followed by more mediocrity to come. In fact, I looked up the 2008 season preview (made after all the transfers had happened) and Brian predicted 7-5.
Rich Rod inherited Mallett, but couldn't convince him to stay. As for Boren, he was so "lazy" that he became a starter for Ohio teams that were better than us. I believe there was another linemen (Mitchell) who decided not to come back for his 5th year even though he was a starter.
Rich Rod inherited more than people claim. But he didn't understand that he needed to sell himself to the players. He fired all their old assistants while putting in totally new schemes. He didn't manage the transition well, and the players didn't buy in. The other problem with firing all the assistants was that it disrupted our recruiting connections. We had decades-old relationships with high schools that were lost when Carr's assistants were all fired.
Again, compare this to Beilein and it's night and day. Beilein went to the NCAA tournament in year two with a team he mostly didn't recruit.
Go back and read this: http://mgoblog.com/diaries/decimated-defense
the problem was with RR.
Look how he is stinking up the place at Arizona, and look how our program has taken off since we ditched him. Who would rather be cheering for Arizona right now?
The proof is on the field.
He won 6 B1G games in three years. It isn't hard to go up from a 3 win season.
Hoke matched RichRod's conference wins in EACH of his first two years. He also beat Ohio State and Michigan State.
Just remember, RichRod ended 2010 scoring 49 points in 3 games. He gave up 137 points.
And he ended that 2010 campaign with the most embarassing bowl experience in the history of Michigan bowls....
Hoke's team may be struggling this year people, but we wouldnt be any better if Rich Rod was still here. Its not like Arizona is rocking the world this year thats why the Oregon win is such a huge upset.
nothing to do with the team knowing they were playing for a dead man walking.
In fact, it would have been very difficult to fire him with an impressive showing in the bowl game.
Oh, and lets not forget about that 42-37 thriller against UMass.
You might want to check how his last three games ended before you say we were on the upswing.
I suppose someone could alwys become an Arizona fan if they love RichRod.
It would appear that we have a lot of them on this blog.
The Defense did NOT improve while he was here, but nice try.
wanna know why RR failed here? it was a matter of $ 15,000... thats what it would have taken to bring Jeff Casteel, his DC....supposedly we wouldnt pay that extra $ 15,000 and instead went with Schaefer.... RR without Casteel was pretty bad folks... with him, and he'd still be the coach here...YEP..... thats tough to swallow, but he'd have made it.. .that offense of his combined with a decent defense, would have made it.
No, he wouldnt be. His offense was a gigantic failure against any team that was above average and not named Notre Dame.
A good head coach has built a network of coaches that he can go to if his first choice is unavailable for some reason. And he doesn't hire, twice, a guy that has no clue how to run the system he wants to run. You're telling me there isn't any other 3-3-5 guys out there who would have come to Michigan?
At this point, a thread about cats would devolve into a flame war. Personally, I'm happy that he's still being successful and proving to people that maybe UM just screwed up.
That Arizona interception early on was the play of the week, maybe the season. It is worth watching the highlights for; just mute Holtz and May.
This was a surprising win, and they way they did it was even more surprising (coming from an RR team): Arizona was more physical than Oregon.
He's a running game coach. I think only the academies ran the ball more than he did while he was at WVU.
You have to be physical to run the ball successfully in any offense. Not sure what is with the misnomer that spread teams don't have to play physically in the trenches.
Clearly Arizona is a very good running team, there is a reason Kadeem Carey has put up the stats he has and is considered a potential high draft pick.
It's surprising because it was a flaw of each one of his Michigan teams, especially the last two years. I wasn't just talking about the offense. The defense played very, very well.
But I don't see it as flaming Michigan fans...even though it is. This is a big story like UF losing.
Plus Oregon was talking smack about the Rose Bowl so this makes it even more relevant.
...RichRod... how do you spell relief?
Cactus trumps bird.
the hidden bauer will always prevail.
but the joker has not let the water run.
eat, eat little pelican
let the sun shine through your wings
...and Arizona still has the same record as we do.
And their best win is Oregon.
PAC 12, at worst, is the second best conference this year. UM would easily have a couple more losses in the PAC- 12.
Also UM has no win that compares to hammering the #5 ranked team.
Maybe we can fix that on Saturday.
When the #3 team goes down!
We're damn lucky to have the record we do. Akron, UConn, and NW all could have easily been losses. Arizona beat their cupcakes like a real team does.
could have been wins! I don't see how you can count the close wins but not the close loses?
Trolls don't do that. Haters gonna hate.
And they're ARIZONA, not Michigan, and they're rebuilding from a far lower point than we are.
That we're rebuilding FROM Rich Rod, right?
Or are we still rebuilding from Carr's last few years?
Good lord, these kids were in middle school the last time Lloyd coached a game at Michigan.
Hence the difference in the choice of words between "rebuilding" and "reloading."
I suspect, due to a number of factors addressed by Brian over the years (particularly Michigan and South Carolina produce about the same amount of high school talent) that Michigan will not be in a position of "reloading" for a long, long time.
Is it difficult to type with Carrs boots on your neck?
What body part of Rich's you're involved with...
That's a middle school comment and a lame one at that. What's next, a momma joke? Give me a break.
You were literally a little school girl in 2011. Now you're down to a couple posts a day because you know just how idiotic you were. It's truly hilarious. Seriously you would post 50 times a day with your chest all puffed out because you thought you'd "won" a culture war. Like most children you don't understand the big picture and you don't think long term. You are a 40 year old man child. Pathetic.
And have delusionally made up things that never happened. That's your thing. That I'm avoiding people who have nothing but insults like you and get bent out of shape when someone fights back is more a sign how badly this site has deteriorated. Hateful people like you aren't worth my time.
But I'd hardly talk about posting trends when you disappeared for a year when things were going well then crawled back out from under your rock right when we started losing.
And learn what "literally" mean....
In my darkest hour I look to both your posts and Section 1's and come to understand that life could be much, much worse. For, I could have the warped mentality, immaturity, or obsessive compulsiveness that the two of you have. And then I feel better. I see that there is some light in this life. I come out of the dark. Literally.
2008 vs 2011. Which team was in a better postion to win immediately. If you say 2008 you're either lying, or delusional.
Not winning with his own players. But it does help to get wins to attract better players. Hopefully the former coach doesn't have a couple of dud recruiting classes in between or RR may face the same Hoke problem. Too much youth and a lack of upper class-men!
Officially "gray area" as it's a college football post.
My bad. It was informative from the standpoint of a major loss/upset, but I guess we're all a little on edge right now.
Making up a guideline off the top of my head, if there's any way it has any meaningful effect on Michigan (both the U and AD as well as the fanbase) or the immediate vicinity of campus (basically Ann Arbor proper) it doesn't need an OT tag.
A Pac-12 game coached by RR and involving the number five team qualifies as "potentially having an effect on Michigan". A post about cute dogs does not, and needs an OT tag.
JUCCO Transfer at QB too. Mutiple Walk-ons. Pretty impressive. Also was 8-5 last year with a Bowl win. Best coaching job in past couple years for sure.
Bob Stoops won his first NC with a JUCO transfer QB. For a team in transition from one coaching staff to another, being able to bring in JUCO players is an advantage.
Such is life in this epoch, Mr. Mayor.
#thicke #thicke #thicke
I don't understand why it's news every year when we figure out that Oregon still isn't elite. They're treated as this national power when their track record says otherwise. They're beaten K State and Wisconsin. That's it.
I know this was created for the Rich Rod angle, but I felt like pointing this out.
I would like to see your list of elite teams.
If you want to water down the definition of elite and include a team that has only beaten the teams it was supposed to then go for it. They've been given multiple chances to take out heavy hitters (Ohio State, Auburn, LSU, hell, even Boise State who they lost to in back to back years) and have failed to do so.
So.....what teams make your list?
They've won seven BCS games in the last ten years and finish in the top six or seven every year as well. If they're not elite than nobody is.
K State in the Fiesta bowl and Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl. You're going to need to cite the others.
I don't know what you're trying to argue here. They've mantained a high level of performance for a number of years. As the man said, if they're not elite, nobody is. If they're not elite, we haven't had an elite program since 1947.
Michigan could ever attain this level! WTF, so they haven't won a NC but they have been a damn good team for the last several years. If only Michigan could get back to this status!
Nice win for RR. I'm happy for him.
They lost to Washington State last week.
So what is your point? WSU has at least won 5 games in a tough conference.
And with Oregon and Stanford not looking so awesome, how great is the conference?
UCLA over NEB. NW and OSU over 1-10 CAL (Cal scored 30 and 34 points in those games, respectively). ASU over WIS. Wash over ILL.
So... better than the B1G.
Using that in an argument takes away all credibility.
Even allowing that Wisky should have had a chance for a game winning field goal, and assuming they made it, that's still a tight game against the third best team in the B1G. The 12-PAC is a flat out better conference this year, and I don't think it's really arguable.
And the game was at home for them. So at team that wins a division in the PAC-10 needs a huge officiating error and home field to beat the 3rd best big 10 team. Yep, that game says sooo much about how much better the PAC-10 is.
They had less yards, less than 1/2 the first downs, a +1 TO advantage and it came down to a last second FG try.
If only they had Michigan FG firedrill coaching. That is the only thing we're good at.
EDIT: Forgot the LOL.
Seriously it was delusion like this that forced RR out. Think about that.
I'd lose to them too if we could beat a top ten NCAA powerhouse the next week. Shit they'd probably finish in the top half of the terrible big ten.
Michigan scored 9 points in regulation against Northwestern. Didn't convert a third down until OT. What's your point?
supporters ran him out of town while never 100% backing him so take your medicine. It starts with silent Carr who ruined Michigan football. Glad we have a winning cross country team. Well, that might end since football (or manball lol) funds everything. Hoke neeeds to do some running.
I will always love Michigan. I support Hoke because he is our coach. But there is no denying rr got screwed by Michigan. It's embarrassing what we did to him. I liked him and will continue to support him. Great win today coach!
The biggest joke is how Brandon immediately opened up the pocketbook for a DC. I asked for an Arizona shirt for Christmas when he got hired.
Then go to an Arizona blog, perhaps?
what is your problem with saying that here?
Michigan screwed RR... there is no question.
Let it be.
Rich Rodriguez is the devil. Don't beleive me? Just look at the comments here and that will prove it.
Regardless, I agree with you 100% and I even have a Arizona T-Shirt and still cheer every week for Michigan. Maybe I'm not a "Michigan Man" but if a "Michigan Man" is what half of these people are on here then I'm fine with it.
I don't understand how Karma applies here? Are you saying Hoke was somehow responsible for RR's firing?
Hell, if anything I've never heard Hoke blame RR in any way for losing.
I was constantly called one of the biggest "Rich Rod apologists" on the board for his entire tenure.
Then he was fired (which I was not happy about), and I immediately bought into Hoke precisely because I didn't want to see what happened to RR happen to the next coach (Now I'm one of the biggest "Hoke apologists" on the board).
Now people are acting like because we were huge douche bags to RR, somehow Hoke deserves the same treatment because, "Well, that's what happened to Rich Rod," all the while acknowledging what a terrible thing that was.
It's truly fascinating.
The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
Nobody is saying Hoke deserves the same treatment. When people mention karma, they are talking about certain fans/people in the AD/former players, etc.
Actually, I've seen quite a few people direct it toward Hoke.
Also, even if you're directing it at those parties by saying Hoke needs to go or be on the hot seat, then you are most definitely directing it at Hoke. Even if he is somewhat of an innocent pawn in your tirade, he's still the guy you're putting up on the chopping block.
Nobody needs to direct anything. We're talking about our observations regarding karma. Some people are observing that certain other people are currently getting what they deserve.
Karma just is. Somebody saying Hoke needs to go or whatever isn't even a part of any discussion involving karma.
Those observations are kind of dumb and pointless.
Some people are assholes.
Some of those assholes cheer for Michigan.
So let's sit back and enjoy when Michigan loses because those assholes got their karmic comeuppance.
Who said anything about enjoying when Michigan loses?
You just admittedly take enjoyment from the suffering of other Michigan fans receiving their karmic comeuppance when Michigan is losing. Yeah, that's not tied to Michigan losing at all...
When did I ever say I take enjoyment from any of this?
So in your world Hoke is just an innocent bystander in the great scheme to penalize the part of the fanbase that treated RR poorly? That's fair.
That is all
Rodriguez pissed people off all on his own. This stupid ass narrative that keeps getting pushed here entirely ignores the man that Rodriguez is...and the people and players he's thrown under the bus along the way. He makes his own enemies. I hope to hell that one day that story is told.
Not directly, he hasn't, but mentioning youth is an indirect shot at the previous regime. Overall Hoke has done a great job not blaming anyone but that's about the only positive for this season.
I really think that is being oversensitive to suggest him citing youth is an indirect shot at RR, but you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't necessarily disagree but I recall when RRod was here and he would mention youth, inexperience, etc. people would get in a huff that he was blasting Carr. He certainly devolved into directly blasting Carr so they had a point but that is why I think of that now.
OT: been doing any night putting lately?
Again another poster comlaining about close wins, but not factoring in close losses.
Those were not RR's guys for the most part. The upper classmen were Carr's guys. And RichRod didn't win with them either.
Because if OSU doesn't make the title game and goes to the Rose Bowl they've just been guaranteed a win. Heck, MSU even has a chance to win it now.
I do not believe that either potential B1G participant is guaranteed to beat Stanford, if they are the opponent.
Why neother of them can beat Stanford.
RichRod was a failure here, no doubt about it. But the fans/alums/former players, collectively, never even gave him a fair chance, so it was never all his fault.
I'm happy for RichRod, but karma really is a bitch sometimes. Oh well. We deserve it for the way we treated him.
I don't think karma means what you think it means.
I'd say its karma in the fact that we got rid of him because he was fielding a sub-par product, he wasn't a "Michigan Man" or whatever that means. Michigan collectively treated RichRod like shit, and when we fired him, we went out to get one of "our guys."
Well, now we have our guy, and things haven't been improving much, if at all. Meanwhile, RichRod is somewhere with a fan base that actually accepts him, he just pounded the #6 team in America, and the direction of his program appears to be trending upward. We can't say the same for ours right now.
Maybe it's more under the category of ironic, but karma seemed appropriate as well.
Oregon isn't the 6th best team in the country. No one believes that.
Michigan could beat Oregon 42-16 today? Do you feel we would have a prayer of winning? Arizona dominted that team in much the same way Stanford did.
Listen, I tried drinking some of that same stuff yesterday but it gave me a turrible hangover and the shits.
Karma because he got one decent win? We were going nowhere with RR. Offense tire up shitty teams but was brutal vs teams with a defensive pulse. Defense was embarrassing .... Kinda like the offense now.
Not karma because of how RR is doing. Karma because of how our program is doing.
Most Alums and fans gave RR a chance. I was 100 percent for RR even suffering through 2 losing season. Though I faltered a bit after seeing how the defense just crashed in '10. IMO, he should have been given 2 more years and allowed to hire his DC. I think there were talks with DB about doing this after the OSU game but the major collapse in the bowl game against MSU lead to his firing.
I just hope we don't make the same mistake and give Hoke a 5 year chance. There seems to be a gap in experience players but hopefully in 2 more season this gap will be filled with seniors. 2015 should be an excellent year unless DB dumps the coach again!
Yeah but Mattison wouldn't come here if RR was here
Yeah but Casteel would have from day one if we would have paid the man.
This is patently false. The money wasn't the only thing he was considering. His family was happy at WVU and he had aspirations of one day moving up to Head Coach. Once it was clear that wasn't going to happen and RR had a new job he made the move.
a lot of people say this.
and if it's true, maybe Mattison doesn't love Michigan as much as he should.
Do you not remember the only reason Mattison left Baltimore was to coach under Hoke? We may still have GERG if Rich was still here.
If the athletic department would have backed up the assistant coach money truck earlier. Unless people honestly believe he wasn't coming to Michigan under any circumstances, but yet decided to go to Arizona along with RR.
Of course, that is past history and there is nothing anybody can do about it now.
I agree. Who knows what may have happened if Casteel came with him. I wanted Rod to stay for another year, but it iddn't happen. Time to move on. Hoke won 12 B1G games in two years and beat all three of the big rivals.
Now he has a bit of a gap in depth. 12 scolarship seniors this year and 13 next year. We currently have 39 true and RS Freshmen. I can't express enough how much people need to chill the fuck out about this.
So many of those pining away for what could have been say "well if only we paid Casteel more!" which makes two gross assumptions: (1) That money was the only reason holding Casteel back from the move to Michigan (it was not), (2) that Casteel would have made RR more successful at Michigan (impossible to prove, though obviously there's good reason to believe this).
If not having Casteel was the only thing holding RR back from being successful, what does that say for RR as a head coach? The two aren't joined at the hip. What happens if Casteel gets successful enough at Zone to jump to a head coach position? How does RR fare?
And the rest of this thread....ugggghhhh. Yes, that win over Oregon was very big. But folks acting like RR's team are SO VASTLY superior forget that his record and Michigan's record are identical. RR lost to Washington State. WSU is not that good, and I have no idea why folks think they are that good. They're no better than the Penn State or Nebraska type teams that Michigan has faced and lost to. If you look at the teams Arizona has beaten this year...other than Oregon it's a bunch of nobodies. N Arizona, UNLV, UTSA, Utah, Colorado, Cal. Which win was their best? Utah? Wow, amazing victory there. And even oregon...Stanford exposed them, and Oregon has been much shakier recently than they ever were in previous years.
I'm not saying Arizona isn't better than Michigan right now, but folks here are acting like Zona is the greatest thing since sliced bread when the reality is both teams are 7-4 and closer than you think. Michigan beat ND and Minnesota handily this year...obviously nowhere near the accomplishment of beating Oregon but those wins count for something too, ya know (Minny is 8-3 and only lost to Wisconsin by 13 yesterday...not too shabby).
And we cannot ignore that Arizona is more experienced right now than Michigan. It matters. A lot. As Michigan fans, given the past 5 years, we should know better than most that it matters.
The same year that Brandon hired Hoke, he tripled the salary of the Michigan defensive coordinator. That means Rodriguez gets Casteel, or at least someone he wanted more than GERG. The only way GERG could still be here is if Rodriguez decides to keep him and give him a raise; given his quick firing of Shafer, this is unlikely without him also losing his job.
I like RR and hope he does well...after 3 yrs he has NOTHING to do with the failure of this regime in year 3. Simple as that.
Also, I do like to watch Kadeem Carey run the ball that kid reminds me a lot of Chris Perry.
I think he does still have something to do with it. See the 2010 and 2011 recruiting classes.
Just like how a lot of Carr's late recruiting had a massive impact on RR's lack of success.
If you want to know why your program is struggling, one of the easiest ways to answer that question is to look at 4 recruiting cycles ago. If the class(es) that should be Seniors(and Juniors) is(are) a flaming crater, chances are your program is going to have some issues.
"Michigan Men" undermined recruiting in Rich's second and third years.
The so-called "Michigan Men" are reaping what they sowed.
As opposed to so-called "Michigan Men", there are genuine people with same moniker who know that today's unfortunate situation could be very much different.
You break it, you own it.
Said this numerous times. People on here don't seem to care. Just want their torches and pitchforks.
Everyone is so quick to say ''Arizona has the same record as us'' but guess what? Have we even beat anyone worth a shit in the Hoke era? Hoke's best win is probably Nebraska in 2011. Also Arizona would destroy Michigan right now and I hope to god we don't have to play them in a bowl.
Arizona is starting a sophmore, 3 juniors, and a senior on the o-line. They have 5 senior and 5 junior starters on defense. RichRod did not recruit those guys. Mike Stoops did. And they are basically the same team as they were under Mike Stoops.
Sorry to the RickRod folks, but he was a failure here and won't ever be back. Thank God.
You can't compare those records one to one. The Big 10 is a dogshit compared to the PAC-12 this year. UM also doesn't even have a win over a top 25 team.
You are right on your second point though, it is past history, and RR was not succesful here. It is still disgenous to try and compare records when one team is clearly playing in the better conference though.
form of argument.
Arizona lost to Washington State who is worse then every team that Michigan has lost to.
Auburn 31 WSU 24
NW 44 Cal 30
Oregon 59 Virginia 10
UCLA 41 Nebraska 21
USC 35 Boston College 7
Washington 34 Illinois 24
Oregon 59 Tennessee 14
Ohio State 52 Cal 34
ASU 32 Wisconsin 30
ND 37 ASU 34
SEC > Big 12 = Pac 12 > ACC >> Big 10
Auburn 6-1 WSU 4-4
NW 0-7 Cal 0-8
Oregon 6-2 Virginia 0-7
UCLA 5-2 Nebraska 5-2
USC 5-2 BC 4-3
Washington 3-4 Illinois 1-6
Oregon 6-2 Tennessee 1-5
Ohio State 7-0 Cal 0-7
ASU 6-1 Wisconsin 6-1
ASU 6-1 ND (overall 8-3)
Auburn > WSU, Oregon > Virginia, Tennessee, OSU > Cal should all be gimmes.
UCLA > Nebraska, USC > BC, and ASU > Wisconsin, NW > Cal should have all be fairly even.
Washington slight favorites over Illinois.
Up until a couple of weeks ago, there were plenty of people arguing that top-to-bottom the PAC 12 > SEC this season.
Using FEI, the average rankings of conference teams:
Pac 12 36.5
Big 12 44
Big 10 49.83
assuming you were comparing the Pac 10 to the Big Ten. B10 has 3 good teams--period--OSU, MSU and Wisconsin. The Pac 10 has 5-6 teams that would beat everyone else in the B10. Let's see how the Rose Bowl goes.
ND was ranked this year when we beat them and somehow scored 41 points. We always beat them though. That's why they stopped playing us.
Oregon was too focused on the Hyundai Sun Bowl to carry out their superior game plan.
Let's not let this happen again. Everyone stay positive and patient. Hoke is going to get us there just like RR was before we pulled the rug from him.
On a side note. Hey Section 1 give me a call and we'll talk about how we'd be undefeated and averaging 50 a game in this rum dum league heading into this monster showdown with OSU. We can talk about how great we would be right now and how much shit we took from this board for sticking with RR until he was out the door singing Josh songs.
His defense and special teams were the worst UM has ever had. Certainly the offense was good, but it continuously failed in big games.
Question Hoke all you want, but RR still did a horrible job here even considering that he was treated like horseshit.
"His defense and special teams were the worst UM has ever had"....kind of like our offense right now. Setting records in futility.
Kind of hard to know where he would have taken us seeing that he was shown the door before any of his recruits could have 2 years starting experience in his system.
And then, once we boot him, we decide to give the next guy the kind of budget for assistants RRod could only dream of.
Let's start treating you like horseshit at your job and see how well you do.
One, recognizing the importance of Casteel. There wasn't any doubt he'd move to Arizona. Now that's not saying he didn't pursue Jeff to come to Michigan.
Embracing Arizona traditions. Making it a point to say things even in his introductory press conference.
Football-wise, it's been a much bigger balance on offense. Denker has made huge improvements throwing the ball as the season has gone on. I thought after Scott graduated, they'd move into the primarily run-oriented style.
That offense will really take off next year. A young group of WRs, Carey, 4/5 OL. 4 star redshirt freshman QB. Already a top 20 defense. 5 P12 home games.
UM will be returning 3/5 of their OL and they too will return a top 20 defense.
Illogical post anyway. Arizona consistently creates holes. Returning OL from that group should continue, if not improve their running game. Michigan isn't getting running room, is getting blown off the ball, and lose more OL. You'll get it next time.
Also, Michigan loses their two best offensive linemen.
He is a running back. He would be insane not to.
Why anyone would list Michigan returning 3/5 OL as a positive is beyond me, especially considering which OL are returning vs. the quality of those headed to the NFL.
Denker is first year starter, so was Matt Scott who played last year at Arizona and they've managed despite being a team of 2-3 star players.
A lot of these things you say at the end can equate to the current Michigan team. 3/5 OL will return more experienced. 4/5* Sophomore QB will be ready if Gardner pulls some more Gardner things.
Almost the entire defense comes back (I think only players that played plenty that are gone are QWash, Gordon, Avery, Cam and Black). Everyone else (JMFR, Clark, Countess, Taylor, Wilson, Wormley, Mario, Beyer, Morgan, Ross) and guys liek Stribling will be a yearwiser, stronger from the offseason, and be able to finished those plays like against Penn State.
Our experienced depth is crap this year. However, we only lose 12 guys to eligibility.
I'm not talking about Michigan...
Besides, like I said to the other guy, Arizona's OL is consistently creating holes. If you return a group that's consistently getting good ypc... there's more of a chance they'll continue to do that. If the group that's returning less people isn't getting good ypc... there's much less of a chance they'll be able to get good ypc.
Arizona's OL currently consists of 2 RS Juniors at the tackle positions, a Junior at Center, a Sophomore at LG and a Senior at RG.
That is a lot better than having 2 RS Seniors at the tackle positions, a RS Sophomore walk on at Center and a true Freshman and RS Freshman at the guard positions.
They have one underclassman on the OL. We have three. Arizona's entire offense has four underclassmen starting. Three of them are WRs. As we see from their typical stat sheet, they don't pass much.
No hate here.
Arizona's record: 7-4
Michigan's record: 7-4
No way UM would be 7-4 in the PAC 12. Also last I checked UM doesn't have a win over a single top 25 team, and nearly lost to UCONN and Akron. Losing to WSU(who actually has 5 wins) 24-17 is not nearly as bad.
No team has less than two losses. Stanford, Oregon, and UCLA are overrated. Yeah, it's better then the Big Ten, but not that much better.
2-3 games a week. The are top to bottom way better than the Big 10. Washinton State could do very well in this league.
Ohio and Wisky are the only two teams I'd even try to put up against any of the Pac 10 bowl teams.
Arizona loses their QB (Decker) to graduation and I'm guessing their star RB (Carey) will go pro. I don't know if they'll actually get any better. Carey is a stud, better than any tailback we've had since Hart.
are perfect examples of players who have improved under RR and staff. Decker was a train wreck early in the season. Literally. Now he runs that offense with so much poise and confidence. RR is a solid, upper tier football coach and I am so pissed right now that it didn't work out with him.
I'm just about done with this issue.
All I am going to say is all the RichRod apologists in this thread should cut Hoke a break since the depth is fucked because of RichRod failures in recruiting, like RichRod was fucked from Carr letting guys transfer out at will.
This board really degenerates like most users are fairweather on here. Pretty sad to see.
We wouldn't be on this site if we were fair weather idiot
It will be next decade and certain fools here will stll blame Rich Rod for everything wrong with the program. Mostly for not saying "Welllllll..." enough.
never going to get RR with Casteel so its not even watching the same product.
I think the guy is a good coach, but anyone who saw the meltdown at the end of the 2010 season, followed by the banquet scene knew he was in a bad marriage at Michigan. Good for him that he took a year off and then got a chance without the pressure of Michigan.
I pulled for him last year vs. Kiffin and also today, against a cocky Oregon team.
Rich Rod's biggest mistake was running off Scott Shafer after one year. Shafer proved himself as a DC before and after Michigan. Had he let Shafer run the D and design it his way, not RR's way, he'd still be here.
Let's see how he truly responds to pressure during the off-season. Everything was charmed in 2011 and he got a pass from me last year with the road losses and near-win vs. SCaro.
Dicktonio was 5-6 at the end of last year and had to win at Minnesota just to go to a bowl game. Dick that he is, he still figured that his offensive coordinator sucked and that his QB didn't have the football smarts to win. New OC, new QB, better results.
I'd like to see Borges, Funk, and Fred gone, move Devin back to WR, and start Morris. He's got all off-season to fix the offense and O-Line and groom Morris for next year. I love Devin's gutsiness, but he is mentally fried as a QB.
Can you not use childish names like Dicktonio?
You should heed your own words.
Do we need to pull up your conduct from the open threads?
I thought Dantonio had to get a new OC because his guy left for another job? Don't recall him firing anyone.
The fans over at East Lansing did not like their OC very much if I remember. He was bad enough that they got Bollman to replace him.
Welp, this went really well.
RR failed at Michigan. End of. Hoke can be a success if he makes the right call a la Beilein. Still there were a lot of idiots on this site who gave him some way too harsh treatment, who now look, well like the idiots they are. And that's good to see their stupidity being broadcast for the site to see.
Still Hoke is the man. Fire Borges make a smart hire. He's got two years to make it happen and he's 2/3 there (recruiting and defense).
Lost close game to UCLA. Then they lost to Washington State at home by 7 pts, which was like WTF.
This week they come back and just trounce Oregon.
The last Arizona team with 10 wins was Dick Tomey back in 1998 (12-1). I think RichRod will be the next UA coach to hit that mark.
Would love to see Wildcats kick the shit out of Todd Graham and ASU next weekend.
Todd Graham might be looking for his next job next week. Hell, he has been at ASU for 2 years so it has to be time to take another offer right?
FWIW, Graham is a former Rodriguez staff member at West Virgnia.
Oregon has become very cocky the past two years and to see Nike's team buried is always fun. De'Anthony Thomas should thank Arizona for whipping his teams ass so that he doesn't have to go to the Rose Bowl again because "It's, whatever!"
Basketball is here!
Since we are doing this, I guess the question is this. Would you rather be in "who knows RR year 6" or Hoke year 3. I am in the RR camp and think UM would be in a better position. I agree that he was a disaster, but I think if he ever got support he would have worked out the D and the O would be elite by now. I see the other side though too, but to me, the "other side" is what we have now. Average to below average everything with the chance of a Big 10 title game every few years and a guy that claps his hands a lot and doesn't wear red or green.
Imaginary teams usually are better than real ones.
you are both right.
Rich rod could not recruit nor develop talent. Just looks at his non-existent 2010 class at Michigan today. And you wonder why we suck now.. Where the hell are our seniors?
As if Jeff Casteel was the only defensive coordinator in the history of college football who could've coached Michigan to a defense better than 110th in the country
He wasn't really given a fair shake here. Was never going tone accepted. Hope he wins all of his games....unless we play him.
Here's to greener pastures next year. Hope we can turn this shitwagon around.
Holy crap this entire website is a trainwreck.
Yes, I fully understand the hypocisy in posting this.
as fail, but conveniently ignore Carr 2005 class fail and otherwise mailing it in on recruiting during his final years. C'mon.
In Arizona. Maybe the reason it didn't work in Michigan is the school didn't give RR any money to bring the DC he designed the defensive scheme with like Arizona did. RR is a great coach who was set up to fail by Michgan. I'm Very happy for him and would bet he wins a Rose Bowl before we do.
Haha. Our defense took it up the ass a few times this year - including to Indiana. That doesn't mean I'm abandoning the system. All I'm saying is it's clearly working out in Tucson. They held the best offense in the country to 16 points.
You're wrong. Baylor's the best offense in the country.
Then again, maybe neither offense is quite as good as everyone thought.
anyone notice that in shit rod's _best_ season we were on average outscored by 3 points per game? we've got a ways to go to match that dipshit's futility.
I'm guessing, you haven't watched any Michigan games this season...
well, we would never have a hope and a prayer of beating Oregon.
Is not Michigan Football. Win games Hoke, I trust in thee.
Sorry I can't help it... even GERG is kicking ass at Texas!
I can only imagine what RR would have done with a healthy senior Denard.
How the fuck do you let this thread start? "not trying to start any flaming" Oh bull-fucking-shit. This is flamebait at it's finest. I hope the jackass OP gets banned.
wow. that is all.
You are the fuck stick that needs to get banned.
We've officially hit an all-time Mgoblog basement low.
Your diatribes ruined everything with your whining and winging. Thankfully I'm too drunk to care anymore. Thanksgiving now for apathy.
Let them get it out of their system. The offensive problems are all due to the inexperience C and G's. Things will improve overtime. I'm not sure Hoke will be a coach to deliver NC but I think we will be headed for a good stretch of BCS bowl games.
Most thought this wold be a bit of a down season, 8-4. We may finish 7-5. I just hope the team play tough against OSU and may be we'll pull off our own upset! Saturday!
I'll be watching and rooting for the team!
This started out as a thread about a great signature win for the Arizona program under Rich Rodriguez. Where is the "bitching" in that?
The OP made exactly zero bitching comments about Michigan. The OP didn't mention Michigan. The edit to the OP disclaimed any intent to flame Michigan. It was simply about Arizona beating Oregon.
The problem (and oh yes there is a problem; you simply missed it) is with that cadre of Michigan fanboyz who cannot stand any Rodriguez success. Their current worldview is shaped by the presumption that Rich Rodriguez single-handedly ruined Michigan football. November 30, 2013 had to be a pretty shitty day for those boys. That is where the real bitching is coming from.
"Their current worldview is shaped by the presumption that Rich Rodriguez single-handedly ruined Michigan football."
Appears that we have one right here! :)
Barwis Effect, I would like to note that I *love* your avatar (seriously).
if i had any sort of balls, I'd start a thread that has a google form poll: who is the better coach, Hoke or RR. Not better coach while at M, not better coach for M, just plain ole, take your guys and beat you with them, coach. That would be an interesting poll, IMO.
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and called bullshit on that. No one gave two shits about Arizona last week when they were beaten by a bad WSU state team at home, or when they lost at home to #19 UCLA. OP is a known debbie downer from the open threads and elsewhere, and this entire thread was flamebait right from the start.
OP knew what he was doing when he started this thread. We weren't born yesterday.
... nobody was thinking much about Arizona because our heads were spinning over what can only be described as a "clusterfuck of a win" over hapless Northwestern.
Arizona's loss to UCLA was competitive; I watched only part of it because I was having dinner after our game with Nebraska. It really wasn't the best game for either team. I didn't see any of the AZ-Wazoo game, so naturally I had little to say about it. But it was surely a case of Arizona giving a good team a good game. That's not exactly front-page news.
What was the biggest story in all of college football yesterday? A very good case can be made that it was Arizona's stunning dominance of Oregon. And it was a game that a lot of Michigan fans, sitting at home watching their television sets, got to see for themselves.
All of that is well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP is the exact kind of person who would make this sort of post for the express purpose of starting a flame war in the comments section.
I mean, you all but gleefully pointed it out in your post higher up this comment chain:
The problem (and oh yes there is a problem; you simply missed it) is with that cadre of Michigan fanboyz who cannot stand any Rodriguez success. Their current worldview is shaped by the presumption that Rich Rodriguez single-handedly ruined Michigan football. November 30, 2013 had to be a pretty shitty day for those boys. That is where the real bitching is coming from.
This post was exactly that. A blatant trolling of the Michigan fan base, those deemed "fanboyz," and anyone else who has supported Hoke, as well as Rich Rod, with the same level of fervor.
Is so underpaid. Doncha think?
RR just beat an oregon team that was clearly a shell of itself. Stanford broke that teams will, shattered both their air of invincibilty their faith in their "system". We have our goals set on becoming Stanford. RR's goal is for Arizona to become Oregon. Neither of those are bad goals and just like boxing, styles make great fights. Sometimes Frazier beats Ali and vice versa. My personal feeling is that a Stanford beats an Oregon 7 times our of 10 due to the superior intelligence of their players at every position. I'm glad that we are moving in direction of Stanford and not trying to compete for Juco's and squeek kids thru admissions that are fast and undersized.
That Oregon completes the circle from Carr's resignation to RR's signature win in only the 2nd year of a rebuilding process with a QB unrecruited out of HS much to the consternation of those who never met a scapegoat they didn't like.
Coaches get too much credit when they are successful and too much blame when they lose.
I think it's really interesting, though, that after his first two years at Arizona, Rodriguez will have been to 2 bowl games and beaten one top-5 team and one top-10 team (USC was top ten when they won right?) At Michigan, he could not accomplish either.
So, if the coach is the same, is it the players/program that was the difference? The conference? Did Rodriguez get that much better in the one year he spent as an analyst?
Maybe Michigan isn't elite like they are percieved.
and the board is now officially in full-on cannibal/autophagy. I'm thinking we're done here for good and all. Thanks for the ride, fellas.