OT: American Pharoah vs Secretariat, side-by-side
Thought some of you might find this side-by-side comparison interesting ... or not, but either way here it is:
(Edit: Experiencing an embed fail here.)
Just out of curiosity, having watched the race live this past weekend and now having watched that video, does anyone think American Pharoah might have been held back a little? I keep having the sense that there was more speed left and the jockey was smart enough to know that you can't do any better than first place.
Now I have no idea if any extra pace by AP would have matched Secretariat's time, nor do I have any idea if Secretariat took the foot off the pedal either(entirely possible though maybe not as likely), but the viewing of everything leaves me with more questions.
Either way, incredible horses and incredible races.
Secretariat
Seabiscuit
Man O War
Seattle Slew
American Pharoah
France agrees Secretariat tasted the best.
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Wait just a minute, how can you forget about the famous Mr. Ed....
Sure, those horses were fast, but could they talk!
Mr. Ed was a fast talker...
YYYYYEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
One Washington Post writer thinks American Pharoah can get to third all-time among Triple Crown winners, behind only Secretariat and Citation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/express/wp/2015/06/07/where-does-american…
Secretariat did lose 4 or 5 times.
Seabiscuit is a great story but he isn't top 5 and American Pharoah, who I think is great, still has to do more to be considered up there with some of the other greats.
If records are that big of a deal, then shouldn't Seattle Slew be #1. He was undefeated wasn't he?
Slew even defeated another Triple Crown Winner in Affirmed before retiring...
I think Seabiscuit will always get respect and be ranked just b/c of the david vs. goliath aspect. He was a small horse, but that upset over War Admiral was apparently the largest in horse racing.
Edit: Nvm Seattle Slew lost 1 race ever by a nose, yet still beat Affirmed in that race for a 2nd time.
Seattle Slew lost 3 races in his career.
Oddly Slews trainer got fired after winning the TC. The owners wanted him to race against older horses in Cali and the trainer didn't think he was ready. Regardless, that was his first loss.
Also keep in mind there are great foreign horses that we are not even mentioning.
I like to thjink that there have been horses in other countries, like horse-crazy Argentina, that could have been as great as some of the best we know. Provides perspective.
It's interesting--they ignore American racing just as thoroughly as we ignore theirs:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/horseracing/9621436/Why-Frankel-is-the…
Secretariat went 16 wins - 3 places - 1 show in 21 starts.
Man O War went 20 -1- 0 in 21 starts.
But Man o' War did win the Belmont by about 20 lengths in 2:14, back when it was a mile and three eighths. Secretariat did his mile and a half in 2:24. Both times are blazing.
isn't a triple crown winner mostly because he didn't run in the Kentucky Derby. His owner Samuel Riddle though that a mile and a quarter was too much for a 3 year old colt to run on the first Saturday in May. He caught the race on the radio like most of the rest of America.
His only loss to Upset, led to a new definition being applied to that word which stands to this day. In that loss Man O War gave up 15 lbs. of weight to the winner as he carried 130 lbs. to Upset's 115 lbs. His jock, Johnny Loftus and the winning jock Willie Knapp were both suspended after that year without explanation which has promoted speculation that the race had been fixed.
He blew the doors off the Triple Crown winner from the previous year, Sir Barton in a match race held in Windsor, Ontario, winning by 17 lengths having been pulled back to a near lope the last 16th of a mile.
He was retired because handicappers were packing him at 138 lbs and threatening to add weight going forward. Riddle was afraid they'd break him down. As it was, he was never opened up in any race really, with the possible exception of his only loss as a two year old, trying to catch Upset in a futile late drive.
The first and best "Big Red".
American Pharoah has a shot at getting himself into the conversation with Man O War, Secretariat and Citation if his ownership come through with their promise to bring him back. They have nothing to lose except the horse having already sold his breeding rights while maintaining control over his racing career. Although to lose the horse would be beyond heartbreak.
I think a lot of racing historians actually list Secretariat and Man o' War 1a and 1b. Citation (1948 triple crown winner) Kelso, Count Fleet (1943 Triple Crown), and Native Dancer are generally very highly regarded as well. I don't think Seabiscuit is thought of as highly, more along the lines of 20th all time or so. It will be interesting to see where history slots American Pharoah.
that being said I think they ran Secretariat flat out in that Belmont because Sham was right with him the whole first half of the race. They decided they had to just put Secretariat at full speed to drop Sham. And then he just never really slowed down because he was amazing.
American Pharaoh on the other hand seemed to just be gliding through the first 3/4ths of the race and didn't really seem to kick it into top gear until the end when he just dusted everyone. I bet he could have run the whole thing faster if they had set out to do so. But I don't think they needed to. They were saving him for the finishing kick and then just blew everyone away.
Remember, only 1 horse in the last 30 years had won at Belmont wire-to-wire before AP did it last weekend. That wasn't an accident--I think AP still had a lot left in the tank.
But I think he was running harder for the first mile than AP was. AP didn't look like he was going full speed until the very end.
Not saying Secretariat wasn't the better horse. Just saying they ran different races because AP didn't have to race against a horse the quality of Sham.
To this day I believe Secretariat's Belmont win was the single greatest sports event I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. I'm 55 years old ... I've seen a fair amount of things ... and yet time and again it's always Secretariat winning the Belmont that sits atop the list.
The race day atmosphere was electric. And when Secretariat pulled away in the last turn and just blew the field away, it was awesome. Still is just to think about it.
Sham was a first cousin of Secretariat so the genetic makeup of those two horses must have been outstanding.
Aren't race horses roided up n shit?
Or is that illegal?
So shouldn't Secretariat and all the old school horses be held in a different light with regards to their times?
However, I will say PEDs are still a problem but it's not as rampant as you might think. It seems to be more common at lower levels of racing. What needs to change is the fines and suspensions for cheating are too soft.
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Don't know how much, but temperature, humidity and other things may have slight effects on the difference. All things being equal though, Secretarait was BAD!
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I watched that side-by-side earlier today too.
While I know that you can't compare times because the surfaces are different everyday and sometimes you just race to win, the fact that Secretariat still holds the all-time records at ALL THREE triple crown races makes him the Greatest of All Time. Watching that 1973 Belmont has to be one of the greatest athletic performances ever and like one of the previous posters I literally tear up watching it.
There are a number of important races outside of the triple crown series; the triple crown is just what everyone knows.
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