Already the highest paid college coach in America at $5,700,00 a year, Alabama appears ready to offer up $7,000,000. Is Saban worth it?
Already the highest paid college coach in America at $5,700,00 a year, Alabama appears ready to offer up $7,000,000. Is Saban worth it?
Saban's plan is working perfectly.
This is exactly it. He saw what Les Miles did TWICE and is doing the same thing. I think UT would have to offer a ridiculous salary, like $10M, to lure him from Alabama.
I think he's absolutely worth $7,000,000 to the university, but coaching salaries are getting crazy. The question is whether next-tier coaches are worth next-tier money.
like when most schools hire a coach they pay them based upon the question "what would a really good coach at this program make" as opposed to "what is this particular coach worth right now."
Unfortunately, Brady Hoke coulc be used as exhibit A. I sure hope at some point he's worth his salary, but he wasn't when he was hired, and probably isn't now.
Yes, Hoke was a panacea of a sort at the start of 2011 and throughout what was evidently a magical season.
However, I have concerns that his hire serves as an enabler for the circling of the wagons around the Michigan program and the xenophobia toward those who aren't "Michigan Men" that's pervaded the entire culture for decades. I'm worried this will end up biting us in the ass down the road when we hire a truly awful coach purely because of Michigan ties.
P.S. If I didn't actually believe everything I typed, this would be a textbook example of concern trolling. Note to self: be careful with wording.
The mentality you describe was perfectly embodied in Dave Brandon introducing Hoke by saying that he "didn't need a map" to get around Ann Arbor. Good grief.
It is funny to hear people say such uninformed things about Brandon and Hoke. I've got plenty of issues with Brandon, but hiring Hoke is far from one of them.
The map around A2 doesn't refer to a road map, per se (though Rodriguez certainly needed that, too) so much as it referred to handling the various requirements of his job, which was at Mihcigan, not West Virginia. The differences are nothing short of monumental. RR was terrible at communication, and said too many dumb things inviting scruiny. He didn't comminicate with the AD in any meaningful way, and instead made many an enemy there. I could go on, and on, and on. Lion KIng. Josh Groban. No Defense . . . .
You get the point.
Holy shit, this guy can read DB's mind!!! TRIPPY MAN.
No mind reading was necessary. Too obvious. I can read your mind, though, and I foresee you will enjoy the rest of recess, there's about 13 minutes left. .
The map around A2 doesn't refer to a road map, per se (though Rodriguez certainly needed that, too) so much as it referred to handling the various requirements of his job, which was at Mihcigan, not West Virginia.
Respectfully, wtf are you talking about? It's funny when people criticize others as "uninformed," and then just pull stuff out of their ass. All that from "a map of Ann Arbor"! Your ability to glean the metaphysical meaning from stupid Dave Brandon comments (and then turn it into a passionate criticism of RR) is truly impressive.
OK, here we are seeing a misuse of the voting feature. Fatbastard has a different opinion from some of you but he's not posting anything objectionable. His interpretation of Brandon's comments and comparison of Hoke/RR can be debated, but they''re not trolling comments. You shouldn't downvote him because you disagree.
The goal of the voting shouldn't be to encourage groupthink in which no one dares to express a different opinion. That would make for a very boring message board.
They might not be trolling, but I propose that there is a difference between "I disagree" and "I think this is dumb/wrong." I don't think fatbastard's comments here have been particularly coherent and he's said some pretty ridiculous things. Then he did his usually old-man insult crap when someone called him out for being ridiculous.
I will happily downvote posts that are ridiculous or just wrong even if they're not troll comments.
Could the downvoting be because a post is wrong? Because I think the "road map" comment was quite literal when it was said and arguing it wasn't, well, I think that's a poor argument. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the source of a few negs.
But I generally agree. disagree != downvote.
jmblue - your point is well-taken, but I respectully disagree that I, or anyone else here, has misused the voting feature with regards to Fatbastard's comments. Fatbastard may not be "posting anything objectionable," but his post - that Dave Brandon meant something other than what he actually said with regards to the map, is completely absurd. I think it's fair game to point that out via a downvote; doing so will hopefully increase the level of discouse such that people aren't making things up out of whole cloth, and then insulting those who point out that they've done so.
Well, the good (?) news is that there are very, very few (are there any?) head coaches out there beyond Hoke and Miles with Michigan ties. So if Hoke doesn't work out and Miles won't come they'll likely have to go outside the MM circle.
Bo Schembechler could have been an NFL coach if he had wanted to, but he choose to stay at Michigan becuase he was a Michigan Man. Doesn't matter that we was from Miami and OSU, he was true blue. While it helps to have that initial connection, Michigan Man seems more of an ethos than a resume stint in Ann Arbor.
The opposite of a Michigan Man is Nick Saban. He is an awesome coach and he has brought some great football to MSU, LSU and BAMA, but he has zero loyalty. It's hard to build something special when your coach is always a threat to go somewhere else. How many people at MSU and LSU still like Saban? How will BAMA fans feel when Saban goes to UT?
With a few exceptions (Saban, Harbaugh?, Brian Kelley?) Mercenaries usually don't win wars.
Even if Saban leaves for Texas tomorrow, I think Alabama fans would disagree with your assertion that Saban didn't build something special there. Sure they'd be better, but that wouldn't change the success he brought to the program.
Also, I don't know tons of LSU fans, but the ones that I do are forever criticizing Les Miles and pining for Saban.
In my mind a Michigan Man is someone who is committed to Michigan and doing things with Integrity and Character. It has nothing to do with where he has or hasn't previously coached.
Do you think he would have balked at being hired if he was making $500K less? I certainly don't. I think he was given a contract that has him currently the 11th highest paid coach in the country because Michigan thinks its coach should be one the top 15 highest paid coaches. While I think that sentiment is fine, it's hard to argue that Brady Hoke's resume then, or now, would have him in the top 15 of current or potential head coaches. We paid him based on the position he was taking, not his resume. Which was the OP's point.
I don't think its a real insult to Hoke to say that we paid him a salary based on what we are hoping he becomes. We're certainly not the only ones to do this.
The same thing goes for our assistants. They are all near the top of the pay scales for their respective titles. Mattison is the only one that's actually worth what he's paid.
For instance, prior to his big raise last year Narduzzi was making about the same as our position coaches. Which is mind blowing.
Whether it was worth that amount of money or not isn't the question.
The question is whether the numbers in the contract represented approximately what was required by Hoke, or whether they instead represented a general sense of what a great coach at Michigan would be paid nowadays.
The argument is that a coach's salary ought to be determined by personal market value, not the school imitating what they see comparable schools paying their highly successful and established coaches (though in some cases those numbers certainly could be the same).
The argument against Hoke's salary, such as it is, is not necessarily an indictment of his value to the program. Rather it's more like, "We don't need to be paying Hoke top tier money because there's no way he'd be making that much somewhere else". Nick Saban can make 'Bama pay him $7M because if they don't, someone else will.
But I doubt anybody is going to outbid Brady Hoke's current salary, and frankly I'm not sure anybody other than Michigan would have substantially outbid Hoke's SD State salary in 2011.
If Rich Rod had won more games. To the tune of 9-3 seasons each year he would have unitd the alumni, players, former players, boosters, etc. Winning cures all.
i'm all about incentive-laden contracts; both for pro players and coaches. unfortuneately, there are always people in charge who cave and guarantee the $$.
It's probably worth it for Alabama to not have to go through a transition.
"worth" $7mm or $5mm. Saban makes as much as or more than 65% of the NFL head coaches in 2013. Which job is harder? I'd say NFL by far based on number of games, level of competition, responsibility & patience of fan base. Only advantage is NFL coaches don't have to kiss high school kids' asses, but have a more difficult time with player discipline & egos. If a university can justify that kind of money, fine, but the expectations are so high on the HC, I believe it makes cheating more likely, not to mention the pressure on other schools to retain good coaches, a bad spiral.
It is not about what job is harder, it is about how much value they generate for the school. Considering he has made Alabama one of the highest earning teams in the country and the cost to Alabama if they lose him, I would say he is definitely worth it.
... what revenues + other good will does Nick Saban bring in vs. his cost and what revenues + other good will does the next best alternative bring in vs. his cost. obviously, estimating those things is difficult, and defining a time horizon for which to evaluate this is challenging, but the process should determine if he is "worth" it.
Given where the program was before him, the risk associated with change, and the direction his program is pointing with him... my guess is he is worth an extra $3MM a year just in "good will", which will be funded by rich dudes who like to see their alma mater win championships.
why I put "worth" it in quotes. I just don't believe it is good for college football and I am as much a capitalist as anyone.
The issue really shouldn't be whether Saban is worth that kind of money. Hiring him basically guarantees that your school will contend for, if not win, national championships.
The issue is more over whether a bunch of other coaches, who are clearly less accomplished than Saban (and may be less of a sure thing) should be making near-Saban money.
but wouldn't the increased bowl revenues more than make up for Saban's salary (or increased salary). I am assuming those revenues go only to football and don't really know if that's correct.
When USC was cheating and winning its way into BCS games I remember a study done that had valued his hire as an additional 14 M in revenue to the school. Sagan has to be worth more just because of inflation.
I would respectfully suggest tha the value of the Alabama franchise to the school and the State is more valuable than an NFL franchise. While he is not worth 7mm/year, neither is Canoe worth whatever he got. It's all relative.
think about this. if bama had a mediocre coach and had mediocre results (think 10 years ago), they could easily lose 10k fans per game. at $100 a ticket, pkg, etc, that's a $1mm revenue loss per game. that doesn't include potential bowl $$ either. so ya, he's worth it. i don't like either, but he's worth it.
When you look at a stadium with 10,000 unfilled seats at a price of 1K per ticket, which approximates better season ticket prices at the Big House, that's 10 million, so yeah, in my opinion it is worth it. Having said that, for the vast majority of programs, that kind of money is just not in the cards.
no, the same way that Robinson Cano is not worth 24 million dollars per year because it is just way too much money and sports spending is out of control. But yes, in the sense that he is that good and probably is a good 2 million dollars better than any coach in the country. But I doubt it matters. I believe Saban is going to Austin.
We can argue the merits of a free market system for employment, but to say someone is not worth the amount of money they are being offered when they are a well known commodity is sort of false. You're worth what people are willing to pay you. Does he impact lives as tangibly as a good surgeon, teacher, or even mechanic? No. But he's worth what someone is willing to pay.
That's a little simplistic, no? Lots of people pay more for a service than they think it's worth. They do this for many reasons. The Alabama AD may be thinking, there's no way in hell Nick Saban is worth this much money, but I'll be damned if I'm the guy blamed for letting him walk away. The Mariners front office might think there's no way in hell Cano is worth the $240M they're paying him but may have decided they had to make a splash in free agency, even if that meant greatly overpaying.
What one is willing to pay does not always equate to worth. This is true in everyday life when you say countless times "I can't believe I just payed that much for this." It's also true at these levels in sports when you may knowingly overpay and harm your own financial interests for vague reasons that may or may not make sense.
Simplistic? No. But simple economics states that your services are worth whatever someone is willing to pay, so yes a simple concept.
There's a difference between pure economic worth, which you're right, is a simple concept, and the more subjective concept of people saying "is it really worth it?" Those that say anyone is "worth" their salary because someone is willing to pay that much is being simplistic. They're ignoring subjective context in favor of a rigid definition. Life is more than rigid definitions.
It may be simplistic, but I have two rebuttals.
First, you can't say that what one is willing to pay does not equate to worth. If some kid tells me he will mow my lawn for $40 and I accept, I've made an evaluation of the worth of that action. $40 may be a little steep for me, but when it boils down to it, the convenience was worth the financial loss. Now, in retrospect, if the kid does a bad job, I can look back and say "wasn't worth it." Hence overpaid guys who did not live up to their contracts. The sports world is littered with them. Saying someone was overpaid would be a hindsight thing.
Second, Saban has brought a financial windfall and an aura of greatness to the football team. I'm sure he adds more than $7 million a year in value to the program when compared to a lesser coach. Your boosters are happy. This would be like having the best stockbroker in the world working at your company. In the end, all the guy does is stare at numbers and transfer invisible funds from one place to another. There is no tangible good done. However, this guy is netting a lot of money for your company, so sitting in a chair and making decisions all day is worth a lot more than $7mil to your brokerage. Your investors are happy.
As I said right above your post, there's a difference between the pure economic definition of worth and the concept of what people mean when they're discussing what someone or something is worth.
Someone may be willing to spend $5,000 on a purse made from $200 in materials for reasons solely related to status and such. That doesn't mean the rational people who look at the bag and say, that's crazy, there's no way it's worth that much are "wrong."
Edit: I should add this to say that I'm not sure Saban isn't "worth" the money even in the subjective sense. As you point out, he undoubtedly brings in more money than his pay check.
Agree with you
i don't think he's worth quite that much, but seattle has to overpay to get him to go there; much like the tigers. that said, baseball attendance has a pretty steep elasticity curve, i think, for a team between 70-90 wins. if cano can help seattle contend, even for a wild card, that could translate to at least 10k more fans per game, like my saban example above. $10k more per game at $40 avg ticket = $400k revenue per game x 80 games = $32mm per year. so he may be worth it.
He coaches in a college football centric state and contends for championships year after year. He may the the greatest coach of the last 50 (60? 80?) years.
Universities also use athletics to promote their brand. So it's likely a win-win for the athletics and acamedic side. $7 million is a bit ridiculous (to me) and I wonder if there is a bubble building, but clearly not yet.
I mean according to reports saban has had an extension (his second one this year) available to him this entire week and hasn't signed it, so there is that. I also don't think 7 million is enough since apparently texas is offering 10 million a year, a 1% stake in the longhorn network and highest paid assistant coaches.
Also shows that already having signed an extension this year doesn't mean anything, since saban already did that once.
Texas will pay him more than Alabama can offer. It's just whether he wants to go or not.
Is he worth it? No, but I am!
We all are worth what someone else is willing to pay us. So Saban is worth what Bama--or someone else like Texas--is willing to pay him. And since he's the best coach in college football, I'd say he deserves to be paid like it.
Now do I think the salaries are out of control? Yep. And Seattle is a fool to spend that money on Cano--the last five years of that contract are going to be brutal. But for now, he and Saban are worth the money.
If the market bears $10MM per (as I've seen reported elsewhere for a Saban to UT move), then he is worth it.
There are relatively few elite coaches in college football today.
He is either waiting to sign an extension to receive more money or waiting to sign an extension because he is curious about possible moving to Texas. He has made it seem like he is nearing the end of coaching but Texas would be a way better job. If I had to guess I think he has waited to sign an extension so Bama will offer more money.
And so begins the bidding war for the services of a middle aged man.
He's damn close to being a senior citizen.
So i am now officially going to raise my kids to be coaches not players. Why play the game and risk injury when you can coach and make almost as much money and have a much longer career. From now on I will read books to my kids about bo and woody and bryant and shula. Then i will quiz them on different coaching techniques and strategies... by the time they're 14 theyll be coaching high school football and be well on their way to being a premiere football coach...or even a second rate coach because by then the top coaches will be making 20+ million a year and the second rate guys will be getting 7 million a year for mediocrity...
Or raise them to be a really good kicker
develop video games or apps. video games make way more money than the best movies. it's unreal.
I have no problem at all with him making that much money in the abstract. It's worth noting, though, that it becomes increasingly hard to justify not giving, say, a $5,000/yr stipend to players at places like Alabama when their coach makes $7 million per year. There comes a point where something is so absurd on its face that it cannot stand any longer.
I thought I had read that Saban has had an extension on the table, but Saban isn't signing yet. He's probably waiting for Texas to make its move before he signs anything.
I can't imagine anyone actually preferring to live in Tuscaloosa over Austin. Money being equal Saban is gone.
I think a lot of coaches are going to get raises as soon as the dominoes start to fall. The situation is the same as professional sports; as long as there is one rich idiot out there who is willing to grossly overpay somebody, everyone else will have to pay more.
In the Fielder case Illitch was the idiot. Fielder's agent called Mike directly and got the ball rolling. Illitch directed Dombroski to get that deal done. You can blame Dombrowski for some of the moves he's made but that ones on Illitch !!!
wants to win. he's old and wants a title before the big guy comes a callin. the fielder signing was not dumb. it was an effort to win now. illitch will likely not out live that fielder contract, so what the hell does he care. his team was just a couple pitches away from another world series. and fielder was a big part of that, despite his post-season failures.
Absolutely. The value that he has brought to the university from his 3 titles more than justifies a much higher salary.
Oh he's worth it. No other coach has compared to him lately. Look at all the titles! No one else in college coaching has the same success. Texas pay him!
Alabama revenue has increased 112% since he took over, so 1.3 million to try and keep him is probably worth it.
is why I am for higher taxes on the rich - you can't stop people from overpaying, but you sure can take some of it from them :)
I really want to counter your argument, but don't want to get banned. It's literally killing my insides that I can't say anything without getting deleted. Please don't ever post that crap again. Thanks.
it's called the progressive tax system. I guess what you mean is, whatever they pay, they really need to pay more, like France.
The UT and USC job turmoil almost guarantees he'll get a raise. It's in his contract, Alabama has to pay him more than any other coach. Honestly I think they'd be dumb not to, considering how much money the football teams success has generated for the school.
Whatever. As long as Harbaugh doesn't end up at Texas, which I sincerely doubt he will, then it doesn't make much difference to me what Saban does.
But at any rate, that would be the ultimate slap in the face to this program if Harbaugh did that.
That will really piss me off if that happens. I don't think he leaves the NFL, but the option is going to be there if he is pursued. If he passed Michigan for the shitty NFL and then goes to Texas, boy....I will....
To Alabama, Saban is probably worth the 20.77% raise that this would roughly be. From nearly all accounts, they are willing to keep him the highest paid college football coach as well, and indeed, a quoted Alabama source in Jerry Fowler's article:
"He's been at the top of the market and we want to keep it that way"
What is interesting about is that it would mean that, among his SEC peers, he would then be making almost $2 million more than the next highest paid coach (Bret Bielema, according to USA Today's data) and that the bump would move the SEC average salary, which is now about $3.3 million, up about 3% overall.
Would we be happy to pay $7M/year for a coach that has the track record Saban does? I know we probably don't want Saban himself, but some less-annoying version of him that still wins lots of football games?
I say definitively yes.
I would say that winning 3 national championships in 5 years would definitely be worth $35M over for the duration of the contract.
It can't be said he doesn't deserve it. The guy straight up wins.
This is the unavoidable consequence of salary inflation among college athletics staffs (coaches as well as administrators). When secondary coaches make more than Regents Professors, something has to give. Since most major conference athletics departments are "self-sustaining", the costs are passed directly on to the "consumer" (i.e., you and me and Average Fan). Sure, Saban may represent a positive return on investment relative to Alabama's specific circumstance (in isolation), but only because it makes sense in that particular context. The domino effect (DB pun intended) is the impetus for your six dollar bottle of water and umpteen wedding advertisements during the game. If you're ok with that, then it's you who establishes Saban's value.
That's not really true. They're not charging $100 for crappy tickets and $6 for bottles of water because they "need to" to support any facet of the athletic department. Remember, this is a department that literally just said "shucks, what do we do with all this money? Indoor rowing facility? Let's do it!"
They're charging those prices because The Market Will Bear It. Dave Brandon knows exactly how many dollars he can wring out of selling medioce pizza, and he's busy zeroing in on exactly how many dollars he can wring out of our desperately beloved college athletics. As long as the tickets and the water bottles are being sold at a volume he finds acceptable, they're going to continue to charge the prices they do regardless of how big the athletic department's surplus is, or how much the coaches and assistants get paid.
It's the consumers who set the value. Abstractly speaking, the value of everything is arbitrary and, at the same time, subject to market forces. However, inflation in one sector of the market directly affects perceptions in another. In this case, we are "another". However, I don't believe your argument that salaries do not affect prices is accurate. One thing I'm sure DB is doing very carefully is analyzing the budget (particularly relative to ticket prices and F&B for a million fans per year).
hey're not charging $100 for crappy tickets and $6 for bottles of water because they "need to" to support any facet of the athletic department.
Actually they are. The athletic department is in debt paying for the stadium and Crisler renovations, which will take several more years to pay off. And obviously there is the issue of paying for the many non-revenue sports.
Regarding the rowing facility, I don't know all the details but I'd imagine it is the product of someone's donation, and not just the AD arbitrarily deciding upon rowing as the sport to spend on.
If the rumors of $10 million/year for 10 years from Texas are true, then I think there could be some backlash and it could end up being a liability for them.
That is 25% more than Sean Payton makes and he is the highest paid coach in the NFL. With the the O'Bannon lawsuit and increasing support to pay players, what happens if the NCAA crumbles and each school now has to pay its players?
It could be good in that Saban is locked up and is a good coach, but it could also be a problem if expenses rise and/or ticket and tv money dips.
But I'd dock his ass a million for the dumb decision to kick that fg against auburn that resulted in a loss.
/s I hope? Hard to criticize his decision for kicking a FG for the win on the road with a low risk of a return for a td.
From a purely economic standpoint, some of these coaches deserve to make that kind of cash. But from a "what's right" perspective, come on. Once you're into the higher echelons of salaries ($5 mil), playing hard to get over another $2 mil seems really morally bankrupt to me. Athletes and coaches get these multi-multi-million dollar contracts so they can feel fairly compensated because hey, if the owners are making a lot of money, I want to make a lot of money, too, even if I couldn't spend it in ten lifetimes? Somebody needs to call the wretched excess police on all these guys. I'm all for being fairly compensated, but when is someone going to stand up and say, "I think $1 million a year is plenty"? Unfortunately, probably not any time soon.
3 titles in four years, a freak punt return and a conference title away from a possible three peat (which would then make it 4/5). I would say yes.
What if Jerry Jones gets tired of Jason Garrett barely making it to .500 and offers Saban 8.5 million? saban had proven he's one of the greatest winners in college. But he sucked wind in Miami. His ego is all that's left. He had more money than he needs now. I imagine there is that part in him looking at Pete Carroll thinking "I could do that too." I don't think Jerry Jones has any issues throwing money around for one last good run.
Abso-f'in-lutely. 3 national titles in 4 years plus however much revenues have skyrocketded there is totally worth the extra million dollars a year. This is a place making like $20-30MM more per year because of him. Its a good investment for Alabama