OSU vs UM Speed Philosophy
I'm sure many have noticed this, but that Elliott kid is super speed on the outside for OSU, which made me think... when was the last time UM had a skill player that quick? (Other than Denard...)
Even when our RBs have breakaways, the defenders always catch up to them from behind. Where's the speed? Do we just not recruit players like this? Or did we just miss out on them? Does Manball mean no speed?
Shit who was the last RB UM had that can match this kind of Oregon/OSU quickness?
(I feel like an idiot talking about speed like ESPN always does with their slogan "SEC Speed," but the difference is maddening this year)
UM just seems so slow in all aspects of the game.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:38 AM ^
Actually the 97 team was loaded with speed. Most of it was on defense, but that was the Moeller recruiting class with fast DBs and LBs.
November 8th, 2014 at 11:53 PM ^
Positions argument aside, wouldn't it make more sense to recruit speed since you can't coach speed, but maybe coach strength? Like Frank Clark for example.
November 8th, 2014 at 11:59 PM ^
100% agree. This manball 3 clouds of dust crap is in the past...
You can make Denard bulkier, but you can't make Green faster.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:02 AM ^
According to Coach Heck, I think it was, you can coach speed. ... yup, hows that working out for us?
November 9th, 2014 at 12:35 AM ^
If that is the case, then that tells you everything you need to know. Next he will be taking credit for making Peppers fast!
November 8th, 2014 at 11:58 PM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:16 AM ^
November 8th, 2014 at 11:58 PM ^
November 8th, 2014 at 11:59 PM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:09 AM ^
Being that I've heard Wellman is one of the best S&C guys around, is it A) he's actually not B) He's given goals by Hoke for what he wants his players to be, which is what we got and it just isn't whats needed/outdated C) it's more of a technique problem than a S&C problem or D) something else? Because I tend to agree with you and am perplexed given Wellman's repuation.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:24 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 3:11 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:08 AM ^
Hokemeier's offensive philosophy is to go sllllloooooooowwwwwww and always snap it with less than 10 sec. left on the play clock. No rhythm, no flow, no ability to go uptempo.
This horrible philosophy just plays in to the defense's hands....particularly when you lack game breaking speedy playmakers or an accurate QB.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:23 AM ^
At least Borges had those two plays that were guaranteed money. That throwback screen to the running back, and that other throw back screen to the receiver (gallon). We've got zero go to plays this year
November 9th, 2014 at 12:31 AM ^
Slow works because you are limiting the number of possessions the other team has to score. It also allows your defense to get rest. It also limits your offensive possessions, but the coaches that burn clock don't worry about that. They would be just as happy winning 10-9.
I don't think that will ever impress the committee unless you are playing in the SEC and then it is about how great your defensive speed is. In the B1G the national narrative is about how big and slow you are.
November 9th, 2014 at 1:34 AM ^
Its not very sexy in this new paradigm of up-tempo spread, trying to score a TD on every play college football, but you can still win with a ball control type offense if you have a dominant defense, a strong power-oriented running game, and an accurate, low turnover, "game-manager" type QB. I know people want to believe that you can't compete in college football anymore unless you are an uptempo spread team that tries to score a touchdown on every play, but 7 out of the last 10 NCAA champions have basically run pro-style offenses (FSU, Bama x3, LSU, Texas, USC).
The problem is not that pro-style offenses can't win in "modern" football, the problem is that Michigan is just simply not good at it.
November 9th, 2014 at 10:21 AM ^
But the line between "spread" and "pro style" I think is becoming more and more blurred. Plus, you don't have to be uptempo try to score on every play to deploy spread concepts and take advantage of what the schemes provide you. It's true, you can win using a primarily "pro style" offense, but there's a reason 90% of teams run some form of a spread now.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:09 AM ^
Tyrone Wheatley types are needed - like 3-5 of them. Minimum. We have a small guy like Hayes and that's it with speed - no decent sized guys like a Fournette. A guy like Norfleet we think is fast would be their slowest players. Guys we are years behind even with the right coach. The wrong type of players here. Good enough to beat Purdue and NW handily. But OSU - damn, its a young team. Lots of work to do. Lots.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:14 AM ^
The thing of it is that LSU still plays a Bo-type of manball, but they've evolved. They have speed to turn at skill positions. Even their big guys are fast. Is it a thing where we're just not recruiting the right types of guys? Is there something we're doing wrong in the S & C program? Seriously, what's the deal? We don't blow people off the ball, but we don't blow by them at the line of scrimmage either.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:19 AM ^
I did a look back at LSU's offense and defense stats in the Miles era and he has elite DEFENSE almost every year. Elite - top 10, fast, big with DEs that run like Big 10 LBs. His offense is often LOL funny. He has not had a QB except the first one he inherited. He has not really even had great RBs - Fournette might be his first. T hey suffocate you with defense and then try to get by on offense. Same thing tonight. (they have had some burners at WR)
If I am UM I am abandoning much of the Midwest and getting serious about the south. TCU can win with 2nd rate players after Oklahoma and texas leftovers. We need to be doing the same in Bama, LA, FL, GA, TX, etc. Have 3 guys who do nothing but that area of the country. Go for OH/PA too but aside from VA/NJ area say screw you to the north.
We are SLOW. PLODDING.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:25 AM ^
Miles is a gambler on offense and it seems to pay off for him more times than not. What you see at LSU right now is the Cam Cameron Offense. If we make a change, we can not consider Cam Cameron ever! Terrible track record as a head coach.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:27 AM ^
Most of OSU's roster is from the Midwest. Heck, so were most of RR's WV teams. MSU won a Big Ten title last year with a roster made up largely of Michigan and Ohio players.
What good teams do is supplement.That is what OSU has done for decades going back to Cooper. This is what RR did at WVU.
UM primarily recruits Michigan, Ohio, PA, and supplements them from kids all across the country. You also have to keep in mind that speed is not necessary at positions like offensive line. You don't need every single WR or TE to be blazers. The same for LBs and QBs. You would like more speed at WR, RB, CB, S, and DL. That is when you go South.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:53 AM ^
I agree with you to a degree but YOU NEED FAST LBs. Its the most hybrid position on the defense - you need to be a man to play the run but be fast to cover TEs and slot WRs. Its where a lot of Big 10 teams fail.
MSU has been exposed by both Oregon and OSU this year in terms of speed.
If we are just content with challenging for a Big 10 title and being Wisconsin - which TODAY would be a GREAT goal - continue doing what we do with better coaching. But if we ever want to get the hell out of this conference and now compete with what Urban is building or heck go win a playoff game in our life - we need to do a LOT of supplementing.
MSU beating a manball team in a bowl doesnt tell me a thing. Stanford is exactly the Big 10 blueprint with CA/AZ guys. They got the perfect matchup for a Midwest team. the one team out west that plays like a Big 10 team.
I am wholly convinced a 3 star in FL is better than most 4 stars in the Midwest. Seeing ASU who recruits in the 40s! run around ND's top 10 classes shows me that. OSU outrecruits Clemson by quite a bit too - look at that game. Etc. Look at ND when they faced Bama, look at MSU in11 when they faced Bama. Look at us vs VA Tech - we looked SLOW AS HELL.
November 9th, 2014 at 1:22 AM ^
One of the distorting things about HS star rankings is that kids are more likely to be ranked highly if they play for powerhouse programs that win a lot of games. The fact that Kevin Grady was a 5-star RB was due in large measure to the fact that he was playing on a dominant team that gave him huge holes to run through, and I suspect that might have been the same situation with Derrick Green. Green is supposed to be a 4.4 guy, but based on what I've seen that's 6 fakes out of 5.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:23 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:17 AM ^
Guys with his size and speed(Walker, Jackson) are exceeedingly rare. Wheatley was the most talented UM player outside of Woodson ever IMO.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:45 AM ^
Hahahahahaha. Yeah we'll get right on that. I'm sure there are a bunch of Tyrone Wheatley's playing out there right now.
Dude was probably one of the fastest big guys ever to walk this planet.
November 9th, 2014 at 1:00 AM ^
Uh, you might want to revise that "beating NW handily" thing.
November 9th, 2014 at 9:01 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:10 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:14 AM ^
David Underwood? Or are you really referring to David Overstreet, who I did not see play but I can guess was probably pretty fast.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:25 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:11 AM ^
It's not like MICH is turning down the fast guys who go to OSU/Oregon/LSU/etc.
Ezekiel Elliot was a top 100 4-star, you don't just elect to take a recruit like that, he has to choose you. On the flip-side, MICH is not going to decline Derrick Green's commitment because he doesn't run 4.4. MICH gets the best players they can, they have plenty of very talented players, both big and fast (enough).
This isn't about finding faster guys or bigger guys. None of that matters if your coaches can't teach them how to play football.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:16 AM ^
Guys like that have to choose you, but you also have to recruit them also. There's either an unwillingness to want to recruit those types of guys or there's a fundamental lack of skill in identifying the talent.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:17 AM ^
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November 9th, 2014 at 12:21 AM ^
You have to have speed at the skill positions if you are going to compete for Championships. If OSU can get speed skill position players, then so can Michigan.
November 9th, 2014 at 1:01 AM ^
What a team needs to be championship caliber are really GOOD players at skill positions. And really good players have speed. But they also have strength. And agility. And smarts. And knowledge of the position (vision for RBs, routes for WRs, reads for QBs).
The point that you're making is really that MICH needs BETTER skill players generally to be a championship team. And I'd agree with that. But that's not just about speed, it's about a variety of deficiencies that 99% of players have, and it's the reason why MICH is not a championship caliber team.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:15 AM ^
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November 9th, 2014 at 12:18 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:20 AM ^
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November 9th, 2014 at 12:16 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:19 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 1:00 AM ^
Agree.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:18 AM ^
I would say we are philosophically simmilar to OSU in that we both target and some times land elite talent. Where are philosophies differ is in the developmental phase.
Watching the game tonight, I saw two really good teams. But MSU didn't have the studs OSU had, which was the difference. I am down on recruting because we waste good talent, but it is important. If Dantonio had a few more blue chippers they win that game.
edit: my main point was the aversion of needing to follow a certain pattern. Play to your strength, whatever it may be. Good programs evolve over time.
November 9th, 2014 at 12:28 AM ^
November 9th, 2014 at 12:20 AM ^
Michigan has been recruiting guys pretty much on par with OSU, Bama, and LSU - realistically we're probably a half step behind - but we definitely get guys better than MSU. We aren't guessing wrong everytime, we have awful coaching. Urban Meyer or Nick Saban could have a program with our talent competing for a playoff spot
November 9th, 2014 at 12:41 AM ^
Name one elite athlete Hoke has recruited on the offensive side of the ball. I'll give you Funchess but he was a three-star who is a good athlete on a shitty offensive team.
A lot of people gave RR shit for not recruiting linemen. When do people start giving Hoke shit for not recruiting receivers?
November 9th, 2014 at 1:09 AM ^
2011: Justice Hayes 4 Star RB, Chris Barnett 4 Star TE.
2012: Darboh 4 star WR, Northfleet 4 star RB.
2013: Jake Butt 4 Star TE, Derrick Green 5 Star RB, Wyatt Shallman 4 star ATH.
2014: Canteen 4 Star WR, Drake Harris 4 Star WR
Those are the 4 star or higher recruits at RB, WR and TE. Whether you consider them elite athletes is tbd.
November 9th, 2014 at 1:14 AM ^
...but Hoke can't develop talent.
November 9th, 2014 at 1:12 AM ^
I think Drake Harris has the potential to be a big time receiver.