Boom goes the dynamite
Oregon paid pair with ties to recruits
but, like usc and ohio state (and presumably auburn), they probably won't. it's too bad the ncaa is so motivated by money. crushing just one of those programs with sanctions would go a long way toward cleaning up the sport. i can just imagine dantonio going libyan in the aftermath, ridding his team of criminal elements lest george w. emmert invade lansing next.
USC is not allowed to go to bowl games for a few years and had a quarter of their scholarships reduced. I think you can consider that serious sanctions.
considering how it has barely impacted recruiting for that school, I'd say the punishment did little to deter future violations. USC will be back to where they were after next year, without as much as a second thought to their "punishment"
I don't know how big of a deal this is going to be. If it's on the annual expenditures list for the university, you'd have to think they at least made sure it was defensible.
Both of the participants in the MNC cheated their way into the game? I can't tell what's worse: that it happened or that I'm not at all surprised by it.
That is truely sad. This is the one sport I love. Why can't there just be some integrity?
But it just really sucks because I know (or really believe strongly at least) that the program I love and root for is a clean one. Almost makes you feel like you have to be dirty to compete at the highest level.
Do you cheer for Michigan? You know we are still on probation from the NCAA right? We have our trouble with following the rules, just like a lot of other programs.
Ummm.... Freep sucks.
You do have to admit that there is a big difference between paying boosters and players stretching too much. It's like the difference between getting ticketed for driving 10 over the limit, and driving drunk. Both are moving violations, but one is way worse.
We got caught doing more than having players stretch too much. What they may be accused of is way worse, but let's not gloss over the past.
Careful. If you think Michigan is any cleaner than most other midwest programs, you're drinking the blue Kool-aid. Flenory has connections to Michigan as well. He has even conducted camps at Michigan.
All schools pay these "scouts". However, most just pay them about 1k, not the 20 something Oregon seems to be paying them.
I'm not going to neg you, but if you're trying to equate what got us into hot water with what Oregon is apparently doing, you're just being silly.
You might as well say that jaywalking is in the same class of criminality as burglary.
I never made a comparison and I would agree that the two situation are not the same. I just made the point that Michigan is not a "clean" program.
Come on, we over-practiced (maybe intentionally or maybe not) by 20 minutes, allotted for stretching. This is likely a misunderstanding of the rules, if anything. This does not make us a dirty program by any stretch.
Do you honestly believe that we are not a "clean" program because of this?
We absolutely got dinged for a relatively small infraction, but the fact is the program is on probation currently. You can try to justify that however you want, and I'm not even sure that I would call us a dirty program, but one more time...my point is that Michigan football is not a "clean" program. We broke a (dumb) rule and are on probation.
OK, but if you yourself agree that it's a dumb rule, doesn't that mean we remain a clean program? Obvisously this is a relative term, and it's subjective, but you seem to imply that any school that is on probation for any reason isn't a clean program. Does that mean that Auburn is clean because they aren't on probation?? Or any other program that isn't currently on probation? I don't believe OSU is a "clean" program, they have secondary violations out their ass every year, but they aren't actually on probation, so does that preclude them from being dirty?
Honestly, your criiteria (criterium, perhaps) are a little wacky, and inaccurate, IMO.
First of all, again, it wasn't just for practicing too much. Secondly, having limitations on how much players can practice and when isn't dumb, neither are the limitations on how many coaches you can have and what counts as a coach. Innocent or not, it stinks and it's embarrassing and it makes the program less clean than it should be.
You feel personally embarrassed over Practicegate? Have you stopped wearing Michigan apparel? Do you feel ashamed to tell people you have a degree from Michigan because of this? Do you feel embarrassed over what Bud Middaugh did back when he was baseball coach? Are you embarrassed over Webber and Bullock and Traylor taking money? Are you embarrassed that Harry Kipke arranged to have no-work jobs provided for some of his players back in the '30s and that he was booted in part because of ethical issues? Are you embarrassed because Lloyd Carr allowed Mario Manningham to stay with the team even though it was patently obvious that MM was a doper? How about David Terrell and his bomb-ass dick? That's a lot of embarrassing.
Incorrect. Players exposing themselves to others and failing drug tests regularly was before 3 years ago, therefore practicegate is way more embarrassing. I swear people think the only bad things that have ever happened to the program happened in the past 3 years.
Here's the thing though, Don. Very few people know about any of the other stuff you've mentioned. Conversely, the fact that we're on probation for the first time ever is going to be mentioned ad nauseum for the next three years. Rival fans will never let it go. And that just sucks.
I don't get your point. The Middaugh stuff happened in the 80s.The Fab 5 was 20 years ago. The Harry Kipke stuff was over 70. So yeah, unlike what just got us put us on probation, that stuff didn't come down last year and I'd expect Michigan fans to know better and be more intellectually honest.
but you have to admit that the last three years have been rough.
Now you're just being a fucking dick.
Guess it depends on your definition of "clean"
I wouldn't consider practicing too much as a "dirty" act. Much like UCF who got in trouble for making t-shirts for the offensive linemen... Not really dirty.
Doctoring grades, paying recruits, covering up crimes, paying for unofficial visits and reporting it after they're officially students so you can black out all the names, etc. Those are dirty acts, IMO
Things that you know you're doing, and know you have to cover up.
I wouldn't need to cover up doing 55 in a 45 zone.
I would need to cover up stabbing some dude in the pinky toe.
Shades of gray I guess, but how I see things. Probation? yes, we're in that bucket. Dirty? no we're not in that bucket.
When you were born something terrible happened, you lived.
If you're saying that Michigan isn't "clean," then you're saying Michigan is dirty. Or would you say we're slightly soiled? Smudged? Dusty perhaps?
Bo Schembechler did not hide the fact that he knowingly flouted NCAA rules about letting unauthorized players eat at the training table early in his career here. In fact, he outright enjoyed thumbing his nose at the NCAA at the time. I guess that made us a dirty program back then too.
Have I ever told you that you're awesome?
Quit being obtuse.
Why he chose "enchilada night", I will never know.
Great point fucktard.
nothing ever proven, but to say ANY D-1a program is "clean" is probably a stretch.
"way cleaner than an SEC school" would be more accurate
I would make a case that the three service academies are clean but that is probably about it.
Doesn't this remind you of the first steroid implications in baseball or when the whole Tiger Woods scandal started? You hoped to hell that the rumors weren't true because it had significance for your favorite team or athlete. It casts a whole black eye on the sport, and you just hope that it hasn't infested what you believe is holy.
As far as Michigan being clean, I know we're under probation, but I still would like to believe that in the greater scheme of NCAA violators, we're on the cleaner end of the spectrum. I would like to believe.
Just seems like all the teams that have competed for MNC the past few years have shown that cheating or walking that fine gray line makes them winners, whether it's Medical Redshirts, dropping players, recruiting violations, tats, arrests, etc. USC, LSU, BAMA, Gators, Oregon tOSU and Auburn have all had run ins with the law or NCAA lately.
EDIT: I was trying to respond to BlueSox comment about 2011 MNC teams in trouble, guess I have not mastered this new thing called a laptop.
... the build up was definitely bigger than the experience. Seems fairly tame to me, though there may be more to come as the story develops.
EDIT: ESPN's picked it up and has more details. My favorite sport is turning into college basketball. I'm sad.
"A handful of FBS football coaches surveyed by ESPN.com on Thursday said recruiting services typically charge $5,000 or less per season for video footage and information about high school prospects."
I am sticking with my original hypothesis that the Nike money is burning holes in Oregon's pockets. And if you are going to spend 4-fold on a "scouting" service, you better get some extra benefits from it!
Also what I would like to know is why was Lyles afflilation with the recruiting service terminated? Did they figure out what he was doing? Or did he figure he could make more money being a "street agent" instead and decided to leave? Can't wait to find out the answers to these questions.
I wounder what the chances are if they go down USC style that we may bag the Traverse City Tackle (forget his name). Didn't anyone from USC get the option to transfer without the penalty of sitting out after they got in trouble?
I'm not sure about newly signed recruits, but I believe at USC anyone with 2 or less years of elegibility was allowed to transfer without penalty and would be immediately eligible. This was because those players would be prevented from participating in bowl games during remainder of their college careers.
Yeah, but it really wouldn't matter with an offensive linemen. Jake Fisher was going to RS his first year at either school, so if Oregon gets in trouble, he could transfer anywhere he wants and redshirt the same as he would have had he signed with that school originally. If he decides tomorrow to "transfer" to Michigan, he would come in no different than if he had signed his LOI with us - he wasn't going to play as a true freshman anyway.
Why would they report it as an expenditure if it wasn't legal? I have trouble thinking they're that stupid. Either way, that is a dirty tactic. Very dirty.
It was buried in the Misc account, which looks an awful lot like they're trying to hide it. One dollar says there is a recruiting account/budget, which is where a recruiting service should probably be annotated.
Is this the major program that was rumored to be going down?
... its the only bit of fire that we've seen amidst all of the smoke over the past few days...
There was another thread a day or two ago with a link to a story about Will Lyles and Baron Flenery.
Article basically discussed college football's "street agents" and their rise to eventually be somewhat like the College bball "street agents".
Basically comparing these new 7 on 7 camps that are popping up all over to the AAU scene in college bball.
This whole deal certainly seems a little shady, but, as someone who was waiting on some news for a top program to get lambasted like we were, i'm quite disappointed. Who knows what will come of it, but as someone else mentioned, if it's on their official books, this would be one hell of a screwup if it actually ends up costing them anything.
Edit: i don't think the link i was referring to was actually referenced on an mgoblog thread - went back and found it and i'll paste the link below. It's from December of 2010 but it talks about Flenory and Lyles, along with street agents and 7on7 camps and gets into some interesting stuff that i was fairly naieve about...
Or Oregon is using the official books as a shield. The defense is: we hired them to do x, they did x, all legal. Never mind that x could probably be done cheaper and easier in house. Also never mind that we knew we would be getting more for our money than data collection.
It is slick way for a university to buy influence with the influential people in a player's world. As long as the work that you bought isn't scrutinized, it's all good.
I know Universities do pay for recruiting services that are more detailed than rivals or scout. The issue is: did the service extend beyond evaluation?
I'd like to know from the payor University and the recipient, what the $25,000 was for? The article points out that both are silent at this point.
When you start paying offsight guys for recruiting evaluation work, but you know they do more than that, or worse you know that they actually have relationships with these players, be it mentor or camp coordinator, or you should have known with some dilligence, you are headed for trouble. You just can't go throwing money at people who you should have known have relationships with players you are recruiting.
I would be real hesitant to just scoff at this as nothing.
Plus they are west coast, not SEC. The NCAA likely won't think twice about making a big example of them. There won't be the worry about a law suit or SEC football powers not playing ball.
I was expecting university bankrolled cocaine and hooker binges for recruits, along with six-figure signing bonuses. If this is the major bust on a top 12 team, it's underwhelming to say the least.
I know that school. It's called: Charlie Sheen.
FWIW, it may or may not be legal for them to pay from whatever account, but this is why it looks like it at least should be illegal:
That's Joe Schad on Twitter, and its clear the money's being used in slushy ways.
Here's the issue I have and it's a big one.
SMU gets the death penalty in the 80s for essentially making payments to recruits.
Oregon pays some dude 25k who is apparently "in charge" of a high profile prospect's recruiting and this prospect eventually chooses the Ducks.
And yet, we're supposed to believe none of this money made its way into the prospect's pockets.
Color me skeptical.
I think this is essentially the same damn thing and when more and more info comes out we're going to find out that 25k was the same thing as the 180k that put a new roof on Cecil Newton's church.
There's one key distinction, though. SMU received the death penalty because it was a repeat offender.
Sorry, you're absolutely right and I should've mentioned that and I'm not advocating the death penalty for Oregon in the slightest.
Just saying SMU got busted for the same thing over and over and got the death penalty. Oregon should have sanctions leveled against them including massive reduction in scholarships and a postseason ban if this thing turns out to be as fishy as it seems.
SMU was also busted for having coaches systemically paying players. They had a system in place and did it over the course of years.
This isn't the same at all. Still could be huge, but definitely would need more to warrant the death penalty.
And SMU was put on probation six times in 30 years before they received the death penalty. They were already on probation when the final scandal hit. The NCAA continually tried to deter them by levelling sanctions and they kept on cheating until their program was shut down.
the frickin governor of the state of texas, iirc.
Check out ESPN's 30/30 episode on SMU football. It's UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE what SMU was doing. What SMU was doing and what Oregon seems to have done are totally different situations. SMU's athletic department was signing contracts with these kids. IIRC, the conversation was something like this: the President of the university came and said, "hey, you gotta stop paying these kids", the response was, "we gotta wait till these contracts are up". It was crazy.
The point has been made that these 7 on 7 camps are becoming football's version of basketball's AAU teams. I'm not sure how much money makes it from the camp coordinator (or AAU coach) to the kids. I've always thought the idea was to pay the coach so that the coach will not only guide the current elite player your way, but act as a funnel for future elite players as well. Do these guys pay a portion to the kids too?
Baron Flenery got boned. Dude is probably pissed after seeing what Lyles made.
Its the return of the Busey pictures...god help us all
Clearly shady... maybe against NCAA rules... but if this is the report that will "blow the lid off a major D-1 program," it's a major disappointment. Bill Greene said "it will be a bombshell, with names-dates-amounts," so I was picturing blatant pay-for-play stuff. This won't even amount to tattoo-gate. Maybe Greene's comment wasn't about this Oregon story, but if it was, it's a big let down.
it might be a let down, but everything he said was true. There are names and dates and amounts.
What I didn't realize is that every school does this (pays scouts). They all report it for compliance reasons, just as Oregon has done. The only difference is that most schools pay around $1000, if not less.
I'm not sure how you think this is similar to Tat-gate. That was just some kids being dumb. It wasn't a systematic transfer of funds from a school to an athlete.
I want to make sure everyone caught and enjoyed this from earlier in the thread...
Like every scandal over recent years, I doubt all the details have come out at this point.
Apparently, a major news source was going to blow this wide open. However, the rumors had been circling rapidly for a while now.
My guess is that the NCAA caught wind and began investigating.
However, the big media source could still have a bomb to drop in regards to this case or it could be about something completely unrelated.
Needless to say it must suck to be a duck fan right now. Theyll spend the entire summer hearing about this.
I guess we all know that pain as well though.
They are going to be covering this today. I will add the link when it comes up in the Podcast.
"Sources: Man who helps Ducks probed."
Clearly it is not a good idea to help ducks...I do not want probed.
That is awesome. And that old leaky underground gas tank we just removed could have contained molassas.
Update: Joe Schad was on ESPN's "The Herd" a few minutes ago. He said that the NCAA will be focusing in on what specific services the $25,000 payee was performing for Oregon. That is considered a very high amount in the scouting service industry.
Also, not sure if this has been made clear in the reports, but the money was sent AFTER a star running back from Texas surprised the Texas recruiting community and came to Oregon. The payee apparently had a close relationship with the running back. So this has the vibe of pay for extra extra services rendered.
To add a little more unwanted emotion to the story, apparently the player's mom is raising hell asking the NCAA to investigate this. She said that the payee presented himself to her and her son as a trainer, not a scout for Oregon. She is quoted as saying something about it being wrong that a guy makes $25,000 "on the back" of her son.
This is gonna get very uncomfortable for Oregon. Again, they aren't an SEC elite team that will threaten the NCAA with defection to a football super league or a lawsuit. It would be a great program to make an example of if you are the NCAA. If they knew what they are doing they should get severely penalized. Way worse then Southern Cal. We're talking possible competitive balance violations here.