really? we're un-retiring numbers? i guess if it sells more jerseys that's all that matters.
spoiler alert: i linked this
really? we're un-retiring numbers? i guess if it sells more jerseys that's all that matters.
Given that we can't retire any more numbers (we can't take any more out of circulation), this is the best option. Otherwise we've got one policy for guys who played before 1956 (retired numbers) and one for those who played after (no retirements), which is illogical and unfair to the recent guys.
Because the only way to honor great players is to make sure their number is never worn again, and they get a plaque on a wall.
This is a way to keep the memories is those great players alive for the rest of UM's history.
The Families want to see those numbers on the field. Its actually a better way to honor past greats because there names will be on the field every season.
What ever....I'd rather we eased into it if we did it to make the moment more special for the players and families of the retired players.
I don't hate this if (and only if) the right players are wearing the jerseys. If the families are cool with it then fair enough.
and my completely unfounded guess on this issue is they wouldn't take this many out of retirement if they didn't have some idea who they were going to give them to. This would make 4 "Legends" jerseys which makes me think they would be given to the captains or something like that. perhaps kovacs and demens getting the 47/48 and I'm not sure who would get the 87 maybe roh switches from 88 but i would think it would be somebody on offense just don't know who given that 87 is usually a reciever number and none of the recievers other than roy have the experience/production combination that I think would be needed for a legend
There will be none. BK_Finest that sh*t.
I liked the idea last year with Desmond and I still like it now. I guarantee more people will know who Ron Kramer and Bennie Oosterbaan are because of this and I think that is exactly what the point of honoring them was in the first place.
Every few years these jerseys will be awarded. Whether they go to captains, stars or recruits the history of the player the numbers honor....and subsequent greats who wore them...will be given. I don't like much of what Brandon does, but I have zero problem with getting these legends jerseys into circulation.
That way only 1 or 2 jerseys are out of retirement at the same time, helping to preserve the importance of the jerseys.
I have a feeling that my frustrations with this number program is just beginning. Also, I thought the Desmond Howard patch was oversized last year as well.
Agreed. It was much too large.
Before the annual Dave Brandon diatribe when ever he makes a change begins, he said he was going to do this last year.
He said that evetually, he wants to get all of the retired numbers to become Legend numbers WITH THE PERMISSION OF THE HONOREES FAMILIES.
This is how it should be. The legacy of the numbers will live on.
but I like this move a lot. For reasons already well laid out in this thread I think it is a great way to honor those players of the past while giving our future greats a way to be recognized as well.
The only thing I would say (and I am echoing Brian and Seth here) is that the numbers should be given to underclassmen IMHE. Giving it to upperclassmen who are "great players" would make it difficult to one day honor those players with a patch of their own.
If an underclassment wore the legend patch and turned out to be legendary himself, he could be added to the patch and people would remember that "hey, so and so was number 48 for four years and was a great safety for us". Whereas if you only give it to upperclassmen you (I should say I) would have trouble remembering them wearing that legend number for one season when they wore another for the previous 3-4 years.
Anyway, al in all I really like this move by Brandon. Even though I am not a fan of a lot of what he has done, I am not just a hater, he did good here IMHE.
One thing I hope happens out of all of this is a redesign of the legends patch, as well as a version in white for the away uniforms. The Desmond design was a clunky, uninspired piece of design work to say the least.
It was definitely too big. All it needs is the legendary player's name. We can figure out the rest.
but no #1 yet.....
so apparently the #1 is more sacred a number in michigan football than #48, which was an f'ing president.....
it's kind of a cool idea, but seems gimmicky, and just throwing a tacky patch on the jersey.....not a huge fan
But you realize he was never elected right? He was APPOINTED Vice Presendent, and only became president after his boss resigned in public disgrace.
I have no problem with Ford the man, the president, the All American Michigan player, or longtime program booster. The hero worship is a bit ridiculous however, there have been better players than Gerald Ford at Michigan that were'nt lucky enough to become president afterwards.
Yeah, because, like, with a little luck, maybe Braylon Edwards coulda been President, and then we'd have a really good reason to retire #1...
I'm sure I'm in the minority but I love this. Generations of fans have no idea who these Legend's are. And as long as the families approve it, which they evidently have, I'm good with it.
The opposite side of the coin is the fact that, for years, Michigan did nothing to really emphasize the retired numbers, so of course it's convenient to say nobody knows what they are. They could have just as easily displayed them and honored the longstanding tradition of retiring them, but I get the philosophy here. I just question how well it will be implemented. It seems too much like wholesale cleaning house of tradition for something that strikes me as a bit marketing-guru-esque.
Whatever. This is the future, and it's DB's call at the end of the day. He has his market research ready to defend it.
Im on board with the idea a a whole but please dont issue a new throwback for every game they will be honored with fergodsakes
Why is this happening so fast? Why not do one per year at a big game, or something? We're honoring Ford at Illinois? Really? Why? Same with Kramer at Massachusetts. At least wait until Big 10 games. I guess DB thinks we need a show to attract fans and interest to the cupcakes.
You do realize those are the first three home games of the season right. They're just trying to do a seperate ceremony for each of the families much like they did for Desmond. If they add a fourth jersey before the season start I'm sure the ceremony will be the day of the Michigan State game.
I still don't like the idea, but if the families want it this way, who amm I to disagree with it? It's their call after all. Also, they should talk to the Wistert family soon, Al Wistert is still alive (91 years old) and it would be cool to have him at the ceremony
The numbers #1 and #2 aren't retired yet. There shouldn't be a patch for those jerseys until they honor Woodson and maybe AC.
21 was never retired but it got the first legends patch to honor Desmond Howard. Eventually Woodson will be honored and the the number 2 jersey will get a patch to, that's kind of the point of this whole thing. I don't really think any of the jerseys besides the retired ones really need or will be guaranteed a patch.
I don't like this. What was the point of retiring the numbers in the first place if we're bringing them back?
I know, I know. "Get off my lawn." I guess this is further proof why everyone on YouTube thinks I'm in my 70's.
The point is we're not retiring numbers anymore. We've come up with something much better in my opinion.
What was the point of retiring the numbers in the first place if we're bringing them back?
If we still had only 40 players on the team, like we did way back in the single-platoon days when we started retiring numbers, we'd keep these retired. We did not know then that we'd eventually have over 100 players on the team, and thus a shortage of available numbers. If we'd known that, I don't think we'd have ever retired any.
I do think they should only honor one legend per season, though. Make it a special event each time.
Can we stop with this argumeent? There's 99 available numbers, cutting it down to 94 isn't that much difference when we're talking about 120
You're missing the point. The athletic department's plan wasn't just to stop with the seven guys currently recognized and never retire anymore. It wanted to keep going with jersey retirements, cutting the number of available numbers down further. But that would be cutting it close. As it was, we were penalized recently for playing two guys with the same number at the same time.
Let's not pretend that the seven guys currently honored are clearly superior to everyone else who's ever played here. Really, how could you justify retiring Ron Kramer's jersey but not Desmond Howard's or Charles Woodson's? Can anyone honestly argue that they didn't contribute as much to the Michigan tradition than Kramer, who played on three forgettable teams in the mid-1950s and was never in the running for the Heisman?
What about Anthony Carter? Mike Hart? Braylon Edwards? Rick Leach? Lloyd Carr recently spoke of a "backlog" of guys who are worthy of having their numbers retired. I'm pretty sure the reason we haven't added to list is simply that it hasn't been practical to take any more out of circulation. But that leads to the absurd de facto policy we had for a long time of not allowed anyone who played after 1960 a retired jersey. We're not Minnesota. We have a history that extends beyond then.
Woodson, Leach and AC are very deserving. Probably a couple linemen, too. Maybe a guy like Dierdorf, Hutchinson, Long, etc...
There is no need to disparage Ron Kramer and his accomplishments. His playing on "forgettable" teams makes his selection to the All-American team (two times) that much more of a testament to his ability. Your comment about the Heisman race is equally absurd.
Thanks for correctly using a gerund. My faith in the American education system has been restored by one unit.
Sorry, I am an engineer and for the life of me, I have zero idea what a gerund is. Now I will have to go look it up and see if I care.
My point is not to disparage Kramer. He certainly was a great player. But how can you justify his jersey retirement over Desmond's or Woodson's? You can't seriously argue that he was more of a Michigan icon than those two.
The only reason he has a retired number and they don't was that we ended the practice, not because people actually think those two don't measure up to him.
My point is that you are smart enough to make your point without tearing Kramer down even if unintentional. I also think that there must be more to Mr. Kramer than you think since his number was retired as soon as he graduated. Different times , different criteria perhaps.As far as football skills and accomplishments, Charles Woodson and Desmond Howard without a doubt equal if not surpass Mr. Kramer.
Ron Kramer was a 3-Time All-American who played 3 Varsity sports all four years he was at Michigan. So yes, I would say he's a step ahead of guys who only played Football. And we're not the Montreal Canadiens, we're not going to retire a new number every other year, so running out of numbers still doesn't apply
This is not an all-sports honor; it's a football honor. Unless we're talking about a guy like Ford who became President, non-football considerations should not matter.
Charles Woodson and Desmond Howard received the highest honor any college football player can. Woodson is the only player in college football history to receive the Heisman while playing defense. But he's not good enough to be on par with the Wisterts, Oosterbaan, Harmon, Kramer and Ford? Ridiculous.
Maybe we don't have enough fire hydrants to paint.
I might be in the minority, but I think this is a great idea. It will be cool to see the numbers on the field as a one off, plus it will put some national attention to the idea thus more kids hering about Michigan. Might also be used as a recruiting tool as well.
The only problem I have are the games they are being used in. Air Force, UMass, and Illinois? How about ND, MSU, and OSU. At least make the numbers actually mean something.
I was under the impression that they're putting the numbers back in circulation for good. So it will be the same as last year with Desmond. There will be a ceremony and from then on the jersey will have that patch.
I guarantee you the majority of people who call themselves Michigan fans could not even name ONE of the previously retired numbers. How is that an honor exactly?
I actually think this is a pretty good idea. This way, there'll be a debate every year over who gets the numbers, whether they deserve it, etc... That brings far more honor to the Great Michigan Men of Olde than what we had going previously.
I gotta say, I'm a bit tired of the fan ignorance angle being used to support this new program. Like I alluded to earlier, if Michigan had even minimally mentned the fact we have five retired numbers, people would know. This wasn't the only way to alleviate the problem, but it's certainly not a bad way to go about it.
Personally, I'd rather see a display in the stadium, for instance those huge areas of empty space on the box structures, than patches cluttering up the jerseys of the minority of the team, but that's just me. For all people whine about helmet numbers and the simplicity of the uniforms, this seems more egregious, but oddly far less controversial.
I don't think "awareness" was the big issue. I think they do mention the retired numbers somewhere in the game programs.
The issue was that we haven't retired any numbers in forever because we don't want to take any more out of circulation, but that's not really fair to guys like Desmond and Woodson, who obviously are worthy candidates. The Legends patch thing can allow us to honor these guys without running out of numbers.
I really like the idea. Its unique and I think it does a better job of honoring legends than retired numbers could ever do. If you retire a number you never see it. Out of sight, out of mind. I'll bet over 90% of the students at the games couldn't name the retired numbers or who wore them. However if you put a patch on the jersey then people see that number as special. Nowadays with people having smartphones they can google exactly why #21, #47, #48, and #87 have a patch and learn some history.
All of that and now we can honor legends like Woodson, Desmond, maybe even some other guys like Long without worrying about running out of numbers.
I just really hope we see a running back in #98 some day.
Does anyone else wonder if they are going to have a player wear these numbers for just one game, as opposed to an entire season? I can understand changing one star player's number for a season, like it seems they will do for Roundtree, but not 4 (or possibly 5 or 6). I can definitely see them honoring the jersey as a one game thing on the day of the tribute, though, and do it one player at a time.
Would any of these guys even care? I mean really, I would be shocked to hear Gerald Ford throw a hissy fit over someone wearing the same number he wore when he played. The patch is more recognition then they would have ever gotten before. And really, let's get the #1 jersey back in circulation while we're at it too. Who cares how many bundles of Berkley Edwards highlight tapes get trebuchet'd at The Big House gates. The guys playing today are football players at Michigan just like everyone who came before them, they're not "dumping on tradition" by wearing a number that someone who was pretty good at football while at Michigan wore before them. They're suiting up to play football.
In the locker room, the locker for 21 is WAY different and sticks out. It's pretty cool..
I haven't been in the locker room since the Spring Game a few years back, the one when it was like 40 degrees.
I like this. My biggest objection against retired numbers is Old 98. People don't know the number, what it means or why it's important. Which makes it irrelevant. I think this, with the legend patch, makes them important again. It tells people who Harmon is. A couple of these guys, I don't even know about. That shows that retiring their numbers, unlike using no. 1, just consigns them to obscurity.
DB has chosen these games to save MSU to unveil the patch for #1 and / or #2 ...
Also- as unique a recruiting tool as all the hideous uniforms Oregon can roll out: come to Michigan. Earn the right to follow in the footsteps of legends.
I think this is an awesome idea... Retired numbers, for the most part, means forgotten numbers....
A lot of Michigan fans, sadly, dont even know who these players were (besides Ford, hopefully)... Putting their numbers on the field, with their name on the patch, is a visible, tangible representation of their legacy...
Players have the honor to strive for, and they will feel like they have to play up to the expectation of the jersey, which is an added benefit...
I think it is a unique idea that will pay dividends in many ways.
Personally, this is a great idea. I don't know if I'd like the number to constantly be thrust upon a new Senior each season, but as long as there are willing takers (which I assume there will be), it's an excellent means to pay tribute to great players and teams from seasons past.
It might be neat to have the name of the past player (Kramer, Ford, etc) replace the current player's name for one game each season to press the memory lane button for the announcers.
Next step is to give Braylon back his money and give the number one jersey to a nice incoming Freshman so we don't have to deal with that mess anymore.
What if a player is wearing a legends number and they become a legend themselves. For example, lets say we have a WR named John Smith that is great and gets to wear the #87 and wins a Heisman or two and a bunch of school records. Will the #87 jersey be known as the Kramer jersey, the Smith jersey, or the Kramer/Smith jersey? I would guess that it would be known as the #87 jersey with a combined legacy of Kramer and Smith
I guess the point i am making is that the legend jerseys could overshadow the player wearing the jersey. We may feel that #87 belongs to Kramer and Smith is just filling in and is a level below Kramer. I may be over thinking this a bit.
I will say i love the idea, as i like the idea that we will see the numbers rather than only in out programs and history. What an honor it will be for a player to wear old 98 at some point.
I don't think real fans have problems remembering that No. 1 is bigger than Braylon. Or that 77 belonged to Jake Long before it belonged to Lewan. I think, probably, the number will take on an identity of it's own, and that,not me, is desirable.
To me, the important thing is to let a kid wear it from the start. That gives them time to associate their own legend with the number,nrather than with an endless string of delayed associations with the number no one will remember. I argue that if a kid doesn't live up to the number, so be it...you justbmiss the opportunity to associate your own name with the numbers collective legend. If 77 becomes a legend number, then an undeserving tackle would simply not have his name added to the list of Lewan, Long and all the other great players who wore it before him. Punishment enough.
Jon Jansen says hi.
Jansen and I are no longer on speaking terms.nhe knows why.
I mean, we did have a pretty storied game where a player ran for 313 yards against Ohio State, setting single season rushing records.....what was his number again...?
If enough good players wear it, it's not just the player who becomes special, it becomes the number. Like #1.
Great recruiting tool!
But I think it will be remembered as the 87 jersey.
Like whose jersey is #1, it's the #1 jersey.
I think that's a problem you want to have.. If you have multiple player that are 'legendary' with the same number... It only builds on the importance of that jersey and adds to the tradition...
Just like number 1.... It could be the carter, Edwards, Terrell, etc jersey, but you don't have to call it that because you just know what it means... Although, I personally wouldn't mind seeing it called the carter jersey
much too fast. Do we really need 4 next year? Do we have 4 players that should be wearing these numbers? I think the idea is awesome but the players really need to set themselves apart to deserve these. Kovacs, sure. Can we put Kramer's on Denard? Other than that I don't see who legitimately should be wearing a legends patch/jersey for a year. It seems like rolling out 4, in crap games to boot, is just a gimmick and not something special. I'm not suing we should do these during huge games like Ohio State (feel like it would be too much of a distraction for said current player) but at least honor one on each side of the ball, if deserving, during one game and call it a season.
I just hope they don't go overboard with the legend patch
If we run out of numbers, can't we start using fractions?
exactly, I want to see a player with wearing a jersey with pi or e.
Only when Brandon succeeds in replacing NCAA baseball with blernsball.
I like the "Legends" designation. I like that they are bringing the old numbers back. Given Hoke's belief about senior leadership, I would be surprised if this didn't start off as a means of recognizing key seniors on offense and defense.
I do wish the numbers could be worn at their original positions but as covered in another thread, the rules prohibit some options. Maybe Michigan can get a waver. How cool would it be to see Barnum rockin the #48?
I understand some people's issues with number changes late in a players career. As long as the player has the choice to keep their old number and isn't forced to switch. Most fans will figure it out. How cool would it be for a senior to either choose to wear a legends jersey their senior year or to try to become one with their current number? Looking at you Denard.
I think Brandon is going to take this even further. I feel the Legends designations are great. I'm 32, been a fan since middle school, but I still don't know much about the history of Mchigan football. This is a great way for me to learn about these past players. Not only that, it will be a point of distinction for the players that get these numbers. It will be a big deal to wear Ford's number, or Howard's, etc. If you're a freshman or sophomore and were given one of these numbers, either on merit or as a recruiting pitch (i personally don't mind either), it has to be a great sense of pride instilled in that player. Maybe it'll be given to "leaders," which would only enhance the pride in leadership.
But, I believe Brandon will eventually set aside some space in the Crisler Center adjacent to Michigan Stadium for an area devoted to the Legends. Kind of like a little museum or shrine, where people passing by can read about each Legend and their contributions to Michigan and society. It truly could be something special, and I'm not being sarcastic.
Also, I agree the patches should be much smaller. Really just thin lettering with the Legends name would be enough. TV will capture it regardless, but it will make the jersey much less busy.
It would probably be in the planned museum to be built during the Schembechler Hall renovation. Not in Crisler.
Gotcha. Didn't know about that.
Patches, special uniforms, marketing, bowls, logos...
Sounds fine on paper. (To mix my metaphors like so many patches on a bowl game jersey.)
And what you end up is this mess:
why you hatin'?
It's his thing.
Still much improved over the uniforms we wore against MSU. Those looked like they were designed by the GBMW guys.
You mean you end up with an MVP of a BCS bowl winning team?
I think people are overestimating what the families want. They may be ok with doing it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they understand the full implications of the moves or truly want the decision. If the AD comes and asks about doing something like this, most families will probably say ok regardless.
I'm fine with pulling some of these numbers out of retirement, since things like #47 certainly aren't as sacred as #1, #21, or #2, but Gerald Ford's number should be off limits. He was the President of the United States. I think people underestimate how rare and impactful that accomplishment was for Michigan. He's the only Big Ten President, ever. That's statistically more impressive than winning the Heisman, but people seem to forget that.
Leave Ford's number retired. Anybody who gets it will pale in comparison to Ford's accomplishments, it's unfair to Ford, Michigan, and the player who wears the jersey
Seriously, if Obi Ezeh eliminates the national debt, cures cancer or colonizes Mars within the next 40 years should his number be retired as a Michigan Football Legend?
Honor the Michigan football player not the person/proffesion/title etc. It's the same reason Tom Brady's jersey shouldn't be retired either. Gerald Ford did many outstanding things for the university of Michigan, most of them after he stopped playing football.
I truly think we'll try for a waiver for using 48 as a lineman. So my (completely out there) guesses: 48: Barnum. 47: Vincent Smith. 87: Ricardo Miller. And with Vincent taking 47, another certain number would be open for Countess...
I'm all for honoring former players in this way, but I really think this is happening way too quickly. How are they going to decide who gets what jersey? Do the traits of a current player have to reflect the traits of the person who wore the jersey? Or do they at least have to play the same position, anyway?
I just hope Hoke gives some thought into this. Giving out these jerseys should not only highly selective, but should also be a privilege that has to be earned, and can be also be taken away for failure to live up to expectations. Not every jersey has to be "un-retired."
And if there's one jersey I hope stays retired permanantly, its ol' 98. I know we've had some great running backs since Harmon, but I don't know how one could ever live up to the expectations of a man who single-handedly defeated Ohio State so badly that he got a standing ovation, in the Horseshoe, for it.
I guess I don't understand why Ford's ceremony is not against Air Force. He was commander and chief after all.
I think it is a great idea. I have no clue why everyone is whining. I guess we are not happy unless we are bitching about something.
"We have yet to have any discussions with the Wistert or Harmon families" really means "The Wistert and Harmon families showed initial reluctance".
When Michigan Stadium was built in the mid-20s, Fielding H. Yost made sure it was a memorial stadium so that no one could name it after him.
I point this out because part of Michigan's culture includes not promoting any one individual over the team. We've seen this before when UM would refuse to market potential Heisman candidates in the preseason and, of course, it's epitomized by "The Team, The Team, The Team".
That's why there should be no statues or other commerations at Michigan Stadium to any indvidual. By the latter, I mean painting their names on the luxury boxes or constructing some sort of ring of honor/halo.
That said, if Michigan is going to honor individual players and bring numbers out of retirement, I think placing patches on the uniforms in rememberance of those individuals is actually a pretty innovative and relatively unobtrusive move. It also gives a nod to the past and to the tradition that that UM football represents as well.
I'm glad that the families of the players mentioned have been consulted on this issue prior to giving their consent. It shows the proper respect for their wishes and concerns, and quite frankly, I think it'll be fund to see all those retired numbers back on the field.
I also imagine that people won't have too much difficulty processing the idea that three numbers that weren't on the roster before will be returning in one year's time. I can't imagine people finding it too hard to wrap around what's happening. I suppose the next two numbers to possibly come out of retirement are 11 and 98. If they were going to do Harmon's number, then best to wait a year and do it for the next home game against Ohio State.
If done within reason, I think it could be a great tool to put a spotlight on the program's history and as a recruiting and motivation tool. I don't think anyone here will be surprised when number 2 is given its own Charles Woodson patch. By the time this is done, I expect there will be a dozen or so jerseys that will have the patches on them.
Now I know what Brandon was talking about. This fan base is too rigid to accept change even when it's a great idea.
A tradition doesn't mean anything when every other college team in the nation does the same thing. This is a really cool, innovative way to create awareness with the great players who wore these numbers. This is a start of a new Michigan tradition and sets us apart from the rest of the universities.
I agree with some of the other comments, however. Maybe they should have introduced one number each year. They should have used the Air Force game to bring back Ford's number (Commander-in-Chief). Arrange a game with Tennessee so we can create a legend jersey for Woodson and rub it in their faces one more time. You get the idea.
is what do you do if a future legend is issued a past legend uniform. Take this example: Denard is given Bennie Oosterbaan's legendary number and then goes out and wins the Heisman. Ten years from now -- if not before -- he would be an option for recognition as a legend. However, is his number 16 or the legendary number. If the latter, recognition becomes more difficult. One possibility: honor the legends for one game. So, for example, Kovacs wears 48 for the Air Force game with Ford as the name on the jersey and then reverts to 32 for succeeding games.
In an earlier thread I suggested we make homecoming the, "Legends Game" DB can do his special jersey and players who have earned the right to the legends lockers can wear the legends jerseys with the patches. For every other game, they continue to use the locker but revert to their normal numbers.
You and Chalmers have nailed this. The only argument against this is the "confusion " argument. But for one game, we will just have to remember that Gerald Ford hasn't returned as a zombie to play football. I imagine we would figure it out.
I rarely post, so I don't have enough points to start a new thread.
Dave Brandon wakes up in a cold sweat every night after the same recurring nightmare: a normal season with no marketing gimmicks.
Has there been any info on how they're giving those #s out to players this year?
Are players going to change #s after the season starts, and take the # after the ceremony?
Or...they start the year with that # and ceremony later?
Off-season questions are burning my off-season mind...
I find it disgraceful that Ron Kramer gets his patch "unveiled" before the UMass game. When you're doing this before terrible, non-highly anticipated non-conference games, this feels like more of a gimmick to draw attention to these bland matchups. At least the Illinois game is a conference game, so there's more importance to the matchup.
Dave Brandon big things to top even this the following year. They include:
I'm absolutely sick of the whole the majority of the fanbase doesn't know who has retired numbers argument.