But maybe the Bulls, because I hear they once were a rival of the Pistons, and what's most important to me now is rooting against the Pistons.
one of my best friends is from SLC anyway so it'll be an easy transition
Jazz. And whoever drafts THJ
That is all
I wanted Trey Burke as much as the next guy, I was mad they didn't select him. After some time to think about it I realized I'm a huge Detroit and Michigan fan. What if Trey doesn't pan out? Not many NBA players do, so what if Trey didn't , I would much rather Trey not pan out in Utah then in Detroit. If it happens in Detroit it might tarnish my memories of his Michigan days, that's the last thing I want. If he turns out to be a great pg good job Trey nice pick up Utah, but nothing Trey can do in the NbA can trump my Michigan memories of him.
I hope you don't make all you life decisions based on the fact that "it may not pan out."
I could move out of my parents basement, but it may not pan out. I'll just stay put.
My dad's advice to me from a young age was a spin on this mantra. "Never expect anything and you'll never be disappointed." It hasn't worked out so well.
I am also a Browns fan and a Blue Jacket fan, so I am just bitter.....
When it comes to drafts, the Pistons are the Jets of the NBA.
Wow that's hilarious. I haven't seen that before
That is incredible. Someone should do that for the Lions as well... I bet its even worse of a train wreck.
Who the heck is Calvin Johnson?
remember Ralph Clayton? a big bodied, but fleet wide receiver? another Jets black hole.
Trey couldn't stay in Michigan, I'll root for him to be successful, but I'm a Piston through and through, still, I agree it's time for JoeD to step aside.
...I've been defending Dumars for years but this pick really annoys me. Right now I'm feeling like a very apathetic Pistons fan and it doesn't look like that will change anytime soon.
Just because Burke didn't go to the Pistons means us Detroiters can't root for our home team?
Shhhh...only feels now...
The Pistons join the Lions as hometown franchises that are dead to me. Go Utah Jazz and New England Patriots.
And now, the Jacksonville Jaguars as well.
For me, more than not picking Burke, it's that they threw away the pick. Just as I'm boycotting the Lions until the Ford family sells the team, tonight might be the start of my Pistons boycott until Dumars is gone.
Honest question: If you think the Pistons "threw away the pick," whom would you have preferred they selected? I was pretty upset the first few minutes after the pick, but, outside of my Wolverine fandom, and from a non-marketing standpoint, I'm not sure they made a stupid pick.
Here are the players that seemed to be realistic options at the time: Burke, MCW, Muhammad, McCollum, Pope. I like McCollum as a person, but he's a SG trapped in a PG body, which seems to be exactly what the Pistons didn't need. Muhammad has upside but is a huge risk and many had him sliding to the late teens. Most on this site were trashing MCW before the draft for various reasons. Anyway, I really wanted Burke to be on my hometown team for obvious reasons, but, aside from passing on Burke, I'm not sure this was a bad pick for the Pistons at their position in this draft.
Honestly, I would prefer Michael Carter-Williams or Shane Larkin. Michael Carter-Williams is a big point guard which the Pistons drastically need in the back court. Shane Larkin is play maker and he is a winner. Pistons lack a person who can score at will, Shane Larkin would fit that mold perfectly. Instead they took an unathletic wingman.
Most had him ranked higher than Pope, and the Pistons needed a point guard...
But they also need a shooter to stretch the floor. And I don't see Pope as being "unathletic." I only watched Georgia play once or twice, but from everything I've read Pope climbed the draft board precisely because of the quickness he showed in a number of combine drills. His slight frame is a concern, as is the diversity of offensive repertoire, but is he really "unathletic"? He's no McLemore, but, having watched his highlight videos, he seemed pretty explosive in many of his blocks and dunks this year.
You know, now that I go back and look through the players that were available, I have to agree with you. That means that I should revise my above statement to say that my problem is the combination of not picking Burke and not making the best pick. Could Caldwell-Pope turn into a really good player on the Pistons? It's possible. Do I think it's likely? Not at all. I don't trust players from bad teams in bad conferences, especially at the eighth pick in the draft. While I can't blame his team's poor performance on him, that makes me wary. Burke, on the other hand, is much more of a known quantity at a position of absolute need for the Pistons who made his team much, much better. The pick is reminiscent to me of many high picks in the Dumars era.
... If you would have told me a month ago that the Pistons drafted Pope at the eight, I would have been disappointed--and I would have been irate had I known Burke was available. And I think you're right that great players on bad teams should make one nervous. [I watch, now watched, a lot of "Big East" basketball, and I'm always skeptical of the players on Providence and Seton Hall who put up big numbers.] With that being said, Pope wasn't playing for Eastern Washington and he did win the SEC Player of the Year award as a sophomore (I think I'm getting that right). And he "isn't just a scorer." I take solace in this: the Pistons need someone who can shoot who isn't such a liability in other areas that he can't start; Pope is a very good rebounder for his position and a plus-defender.
I would hope that the number eight pick had All-Star potential, and I don't like Pope that much, but this is a weak draft at the top. If he turns into a solid starter I'll be happy.
With all that being said, losing Burke still stings.
Here's the thing for me. I can totally agree that perhaps Burke wasn't the best pick. The concept that the pistons need a point guard is highly debatable with both knight and Calderon in the fold. However was Caldwell-pope really the best option? Sure he's a good player but that shouldn't warrant a #8 selection in the draft whether its a weak year or not. Think about this. Lets just say the pistons had drafted Burke and traded him to Utah like Minnesota did. Does anybody really think Caldwell would have been taken before the pistons would have had another shot at him? I think it's pretty likely he would have been available for the first pick and maybe even the 2nd pick. How crazy is it to consider giving up that good of a pick for someone who probably should have been drafted later?
The frustrating part isn't that they didnt pick Burke but that they so easily settled for a guy who easily could have went much lower. Two 1st rd picks would have been huge for this roster and if a GM can't see that it's pretty depressing.
"Does anybody really think Caldwell would have been taken before the pistons would have had another shot at him?"
I'm either not understanding what you're arguing or we're not talking about the same guy.
The Pistons drafted Pope at 8. Nbadraft.net projected Pope to be selected at 9 by the T-wolves. Bleacher Report projected him to be selected at 9 as well. SI had him ranked as the 14th overall player, possibly the best shooter, and considered him a good pickup for the Pistons at 8. Etc.
So... it's possible that the Pistons could have gotten him lower, but, with everything that would have had to fall into place, not terribly likely (and certainly not a given).
"Two 1st rd picks would have been huge for this roster and if a GM can't see that it's pretty depressing."
Sorry, not trying to pile on, but the Pistons essentially did get two first-round picks by grabbing Tony Mitchell. I don't want to give Dumars credit for what may have been dumb luck, but the Pistons seemed to do pretty well for themselves in this draft.
We'll just assume you're right and the projections (which had been so accurate up to that point) were right on this one. Obviously, the picks would have been different had the Pistons initiated the trade, but come on, Caldwell-Pope is not a better prospect than Muhammad and Dieng. I find it hard to reason that the Pistons got the best end of the deal in this situation. Even if you are one of the guys to doubt Muhammad, he could fill the exact same role as Caldwell-Pope. So essentially, even if you view Muhammad as a downgrade (which once again is all speculation) the Pistons picked a #9 projection in a weak draft over a #14 that can fill the exact same role and a shot to pick anyone they wanted at #21 along with the guy at #14 who could easily be better than Caldwell-Pope.
Like I said, Caldwell-Pope may be a great player someday, but from a management perspective, unless this guy blows up, I just don't see how you reason that it was the right choice. Even if the Pistons had not ended up with Burke there certainly was trade interest for Burke and you're talking about an extra 1st round pick.
You also point out the Pistons practically got two 1st round picks with their selections. Ok, well how about 3? Then you don't have to take Siva at the end of the draft and instead you could have taken a guy like Larkin. I'm sorry, I would take a combination of Muhammad, Larkin, and Mitchell over Caldwell-Pope, Mitchell, and Siva any day.
EDIT: Ok, Larkin was probably not the best example, but Isaiah Canaan would have still been available, who was taken early in the 2nd round. Still an upgrade over Siva.
The Pistons absolutely do not need another big since they have Monroe and Drummond. Muhammad is a one dimensional scorer who can only go to left plus has off-field issue surrounding Muhammad. KCP is more athletic and a better shooter than Muhammad.
Both Larkin and Cannan were gone before the Pistons 2nd round pick so no way they can take them at that point. Dumb example as well. They gambled perfectly on Mitchell who has a potential to be a superstar if he get it together. Mitchell is Paul George clone IMO.
Well first off, Muhammad isn't a big. He would have played on the wing in all likelihood in Detroit. And second, I said they could have picked up Canaan if they had opted to do the Burke trade instead. They would have still had their 2nd round pick for Mitchell, but had an extra first round pick to use. I just assumed they would have used it on a point guard since that was the 3rd player they selected in the draft.
My point wasn't to argue that Muhammad is better than CP. In fact, I would probably take CP over Muhammad myself. My point that was I would not have taken CP and Siva over Muhammad AND a guy like Canaan. There isn't a big enough difference between CP and Muhammad to warrant selecting Siva at #56 instead of the #21 pick (Canaan).
I better understand the sort of trade you had in mind. I probably agree that the Pistons packaging Burke in the way Minny did for the players that they ended up drafting at 14 and 21 would have been a bigger haul of talent than CP. [If, however, they have rightly judged CP to be appreciably better than Muhammad, I'm generally not in favor of grabbing more quantity in the draft beneath the lottery selections.]
Also, just to clarify, I wasn't arguing that the Pistons made the best choice or the "right choice." I was disagreeing, first, with the earlier poster's original premise that the Pistons wasted their pick, and, secondly, I was noting that, if the Pistons had decided they really wanted CP, they were hardly guaranteed to grab him any lower, since it was commonly believed that the T-Wolves wanted him at nine. In the end, CP was considered to be in the 10-12 range in terms of talent, and since he fills a need, I think it's a sensible pick.
P.S. I think Michigan4life is referring to Dieng as the "big man" that the Pistons didn't need (not Mohammad).
Yes, that's more along the lines of my thoughts. Not convinced he fills the exact need the Pistons are looking for, but we'll have to wait and see I guess. It just gets so frustrating to see other teams make great moves and see Detroit make moves that honestly appear like settling. Best of luck to the kid, but my disappointment to skipping on doing something else is sky high.
in Tony Mitchell who is Paul George clone. I would take KCP and Mitchell over Muhammad and Cannan. Muhammad is a blackhole waiting to happen.
Muhammad was considered a bad pick by many even as low as he was picked. His stock has plummeted.
This was a rare combination where Michigan has a player who projects to be a very good starter in the league, and the pick itself would have actually made sense. If Trey had been projecting as a 2nd round pick and likely not a starter, this would have been different.
If you are honest, some douchebag will call you "overrated"...
Well, Randy: you have managed a "flamebait" and a "redundant" for this comment. I am sure your "honesty" is greatly appreciated by someone, though. Besides, the first unofficial "rule" about mgopoints is to never mention yours, especially when bitching.
Damn you've hit 10.5 K! Way to be.
Obviously we're all biased here but Joe D has been horrendous since 2004-05. Trey was being hailed as a possible #1 overall pick and he fell into the Pistons lap at #8. Stuckey, Knight and this draft pick are all shooting guards...awesome.
Absolutely for me... Joe gotta go!
Guess I'll only go to one Pistons game next year.
You mean the one with Vanilla Ice performing at halftime. The Red Dragon only performs for Gold Standard teams like Michigan.
People quickly reasoned that it's best for Michigan players to not be cursed by playing for the Ford family.
Utah Jazz. They have my favorite player. That easy.
Joe D is terrible. He was fortunate to have Knight and Drummond fall in his lap and he didn't blow it, but this year he straight screwed up. He has no business being a GM. None.
I'd rather cheer for the Heat than the Pistons.
Damn man you're upset!!
I will admit that.
not me, but ANYBODY else than the heat i would root for. W hen it was taking sooooo long for what should have been an obviout pick to come up on ESPN I knew Dumars had done a Dumars
F Dumars and F this team. There goes the last sliver of hope for me to care about this pathetic franchise. I'm done with the Pistons until Dumars is FIRED. Go Heat, baby.
Where did you learn how to be a sports fan? Miami?
Do you not understand how this board is formatted?
He was addressing the original poster. You just look like a jerk now. Sorry.
I'm still a Piston fan (more or less), but if they'd drafted Burke I'd have actually considered buying tickets to see them at the Palace. Now I'll just continue what I've been doing for a few years now - watching them once in a while on TV and not getting too emotionally involved.
Why can we no longer root for the Pistons? I don't know if I've ever actually heard someone actively advocating fairweather fandom. I don't watch the Pistons these days because there's no point, but that doesn't mean I'm not still a fan. I'm pretty confused as to why you would root against them...
When the head of the franchise tells the fans to basically fuck off.
Jazz for sure. Otherwise Kevin Durant is a superstar I don't hate, so probably the Thunder. In the East? Ugh. Maybe the Pacers. Good colors and they seem to be playing the right way. To answer the questions about not rooting for the Pistons, I can root for them again when they show Joe the door. I like Joe and it's sad to see it end this way, but I can't support someone who botched it so badly. I'm more angry about this than I was Darko.
If the Pistons would've drafted Burke, I would've gone to one or two more games than I did the last few years, which was zero. As much as I love Trey, the Pistons need a big guy that can score and that was not available at #8.
Let Trey go somewhere where there's not a logjam at his position, and let's see if Brandon Knight can get a full season at the point, and not yo-yoing between the 1 and 2, to see if he can be a starting NBA point guard. He's only 21.
So where are the pistons getting their big guy that can score? I also don't think you need a major scoring threat from a big these days
They needed Burke then they needed to go after Andre Iguodala try to shoot for the playoffs until they can get better on the wing and build depth.
Iggy isn't turning down a 14 million dollar player option sorry lol
Informative. Cause I def heard them talking about the radio about the Pistons looking for him in free agency. But yea, you're exactly right.
He has a player option worth 14 million. I don't think the market will give him more, but if they do I hope its not the Pistons
But what was available was one of the best shooting guards in the draft. Granted, I didn't watch the pillow fight known as SEC basketball, but Pope was regularly slotted in this part of the lottery.
We haven't had a good shooting guard since Rip. It's no good drafting Burke if he has no one to pass the ball to who can score.
A big guy? Really? Monroe and Drummond are probably the best 1-2 young big man tandem in the league. They needed a true PG and Joe D fucked it up. Not surprised, just dissapointed.
Spurs. Duncan for 5 more years!
And most of that is the demeanor of their fantastic head coach
#1 - Any team that plays the Pistons....#2 - Charlotte Hornets (I don't believe in "taking on good teams" so I'm going to be a Hornets fan...not Bobcats, we'll start in 2014...this way I can say I was a fan from the beginning). GO HORNETS!
Spurs. Liked them since David Robinson. And they're not the Pistons.
Joe D sucks but they'll be alright in the future. Knight, Monroe, and Drummon are a good core to build around and I'll give Pope a chance to prove himself before complaining.
Was my initial reaction when Stern didn't read Trey's name. But after a couple of deep breaths I don't know if I want Burke playing for the train wreck that is the Pistons. A am still a Flint Tropics fan though.
No bandwagon over here, if anyone says differently you were never a Pistons fan. I wasn't on board with the pick, but Joe D must have confidence that Mo Cheeks can turn Knight into a true point guard. Also you all should note the new pistons owner is a MSU grad, some reports suggested he was taking away from Dumars duties like hiring a coach, is it too much to suggest maybe his people made that pick?
Gores' people must be pretty dumb if they're letting Trey's college be a negative against him.
That's not the point I was making. they're new to the league, maybe he has some guys around him who are not smart, maybe KCP will be an all star only time will tell
Alone should make you question his sanity.
except he worked one on one with Russell Westbrook
Made Russell Westbrook good.
Yes but Cheeks helped a extremely gifted 2 guard into a point guard that's the point
Brandon Knight isn't Russell Westbrook. Westbrook can do a lot of things that most players in the NBA can't because he's an incredibly gifted athlete. He's never really been a true PG, and Cheeks wasn't the one who made him an exceptional athlete.
Cheeks isn't really a horrifyingly bad hire, it's just incredibly uninspired. He was OK as coach on some decent teams, and we all know Joe hired him because he was a great player. Why not take a chance on literally anyone involved with coaching Indiana or Chicago? I'd take a ball boy as an assistant, maybe he can remember some of what Thib's is teaching.
Knight isn't as gifted of an athlete as Westbrook but he's by far a superior shooter with pretty good athleticism
You forget that people didn't expect RW to be RW.
The only teams that I have actively given up on and root against until their current management teams are shown the door are the Pistons and the Lions. Until Joe D and the Fords are gone I will actively root against the Pistons and the Lions respectively. Both franchises have zero hope with their current management.
So go Utah Jazz and go Patriots.
The Lions have a zero chance? when they make it back to the playoffs please do not watch
Thats ok I will continue to watch the Pats in the AFC finals every other year.
If the Fords are going to make zero effort to field a winning team then I am going to expend zero effort as a fan. I would rather have Al Davis rise out of the grave as the owner than the Fords.
Game 2 of the 2006 western conference finals was the last time I watched the pistons. I saw Shaq and Wade basically just punk the pistons from the upper deck of the palace. That night I told myself I was absolutely done with the stones until Joe D was shown the door.
Dude, the Lions made some decent moves these past five years. Last year sucked, but I've got hope for this year. Don't abandon them just yet.
nope, getting Reggie Bush is not a good move. The Lions still have the worst offensive line in the league. They will be lucky to win six games next season.
If the Lions have not have had a championship team in the 50+ years of Ford ownership, what make you believe it will ever change with them in charge. Stick to cars Ford family.
So your team has to win championships for you to root for them? Gotcha
for pro's there has to be at least some hope in the last half of a century. the lions fail that standard.
Lions fans = a poor man's cubs fans
Call it what you wish, maybe I was raised a little differently, have fun being a jazz fan
So what will take for you to jump ship on Michigan?
Ohio State University taking over ownership of the university.
Sorry my love for the greatest public university in the world is not for sale. Michigan football, hockey, and basketball can go 0-for whatever for the rest of history and I will still be Michigan through and through as long as the high academic standards are still enforced.
The Pistons do not. Monroe, Knight, and Drummond are decent players, but none of them are people you build your franchise around.
Knight, I can agree with. Yes you can build around Monroe and Drummond especially Drummond. Drummond is already a top 8 C in the league and can be the top C in the league when all is said and done.
has me thinking epic sax man
Still a D fan but I will not admit again again until they make the playoffs...Damn it!!!
Im really unhappy right now...
I am bulls fan but when I was younger I rooted for the pistons. I was gonna go back to watching them when they got Burke but of course they screwed it up. Will watch as many Utah Jazz games as I can.
Amen dude. At least there is the EPL and the NHL.
The last two would've killed it for me if I were an NBA fan. I can at least understand star players getting some key calls late but honestly, the ratio is just stupid broken in the NBA.
Worst part is when a non-fan (like me) can accurately predict the outcome of a playoff series based solely on market share and best ESPN talking head debates.
Dumars compared picking KCP over Burke to the Pacers taking Reggie Miller over Steve Alford.
— Dave Hogg (@Stareagle) June 28, 2013
It's also not that we just wanted Burke because he played for Michigan (although that contributes for sure).
Burke would have been a solid pick. It's not like we were asking him to pick Zack Novak or something. Love Zack but he isn't an NBA player (super obvious statement).
Fire this man
It doesn't mean you're right or it will turn out the same way. Dumars is a joke. Thanks for putting all the pressure in the world on this kid Joe, if he's not Reggie Miller than I'll be looking for an explanation.
You can't justify a spillymeal with relative history....nothing can justify a spillymeal.
Especially now that Diva Dwight is on his way out...and Lakers will have tons of cap space to sign all of your best players in 2014.
Disappointed that they didn't go Trey? You bet. Will I watch much Pistons basketball this coming season? Nope. (Not a stretch since it would cost $$ to get the package here in MN).
Swearing off fandom of one of my teams?
No way. I'll leave the bandwagon jumping to other fanbases.
And it's not like the Pistons haven't ever been worth rooting for; they've won more championships in my lifetime than the Lions and Tigers combined.
But they won't get a dime of my money or a second of my TV veiwing until Dumar's is fired.
If you wire me $175 to buy the NBA streaming package, I promise to watch a number of Pistons games. My opportunities to see them in Minnesota will otherwise be sharply limited.
Sorry it took me a moment to respond. It took me a few minutes to recover from the crushing blow of having my fandom questioned by someone so highly esteemed.
This is a bit late for a response, but your rejoinder is worth responding to.
For starters, my post was unnecessarily snarky, so you have me there. However, your post does not actually address what I said. What I said was that I won't watch them much.
You respond by saying that you were able to catch a number of Pistons games in Saint Paul. That's nice, but the Pistons were almost certainly a lot better than what they are now--ESPN and TNT aren't exactly in a bidding war to broadcast them.
What I will do is continue to follow how they perform, and root for them over other NBA teams. Like many people, if asked "who do you root for" my NBA answer is the Pistons.
I don't pretend to be their biggest fan, and when they won in '04 I was very happy but didn't pretend that I was a long-suffering fan. Not the same way I was of, say, the Wings or the '97 football team.
There's a big gap between that and not being a fan.
Everything else is a distant runner up.
I was a kings fan, cwebb left then the entire refs cheated them story emerged and I gave up on the NBA. saw the kings could draft burke, 75% of there fans wanted him and.....yeah I'm not paying attention to them. I might follow burke but I'm done with the NBA.
Michigan is the only basketball team I will ever truly can about. That being said, I will casually root for the Jazz now that Burke is playing for them, and whatever team drafts Hardaway.
I'll still be a Pistons fan and even though I say I won't watch now, let's be honest I probably will. But damn it doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I survived the 90s Tigers and the 90s-00s Lions so I can survive this. It's just AHHHHHHHHHH
You guys should absolutely pack out the Palace if/when Utah visits next year. Would send an awesome message to ownership.
It depends on what broken down nineties rapper is performing.
i've always had something for the trail blazers.. i don't know if its the name or the uniforms
I heard Knicks want THjr so I think we're going to hear some good news soon!
Yes! Knew it!
Oh wait...they aren't pro? Well the the Pistons...horrible job by Dumars, but a true fan is a true fan,,,even when the management sucks.
so we can all be like Cubs fans...no thanks. Go Jazz.
The Seattle Superson ... wait, fuck.
It looks like the Pistons are going to trade Brandon Knight for Eric Bledsoe, so this all makes a little more sense in that context.
If Bledsoe more of a pure PG than Knight? Haven't seen much of him.
It's hard to say, but he is an athletic dynamo and a defensive stopper.
His assist and turnover percentages were both slightly higher, but his steals are off the charts and he is an elite rebounder and shot blocker for his position. He also improved dramatically as a scorer and shooter last year.
He's a better fit for the team than Knight, so if they only have to give up Knight and 2nd round picks, they should do it.
Apparantly the Magic are offering Afflallo for Bledsoe. Who would you take if you were the Clips?
On a side note, hey look, another of joe's dumbass moves!
I don't think the clippers would take on Affalao contract? good move by Joe no one in their right mind would pay that
Go Air Georgia!
are still in your town. KC roots, but no longer a Kings or Devils (nee Scouts) fan. Became a Bulls fan in the MJ era, and now have a hometown Bluejackets team that is looking up after a leadership change. Here's hoping ownership/leadership changes for y'all.
The Heat. Down since 41. Rice. Enjoy the king. I can guarantee they win the next nine titles.
They didn't want to lose their core MSU fanbase!
Honestly, it doesn't make any sense. It;s good for Burke, the pistons are a tire fire.
But wow THJ at 24. Great day for Michigan basketball.
If the Pistons can flip Brandon Knight and a pick, or those two 2nd round picks for Eric Bledsoe, then this will have been a really good draft day for them. The they can go out and break the bank on Iggy, or sign guys like Martell Webster and Dorell Wright to fit that 3 spot.
That would give them a starting 5 of:
Sounds good to me. That's an extremely bright future, and a team full of defensive stoppers, outside of Monroe.
That sounds like a team that gets swept by Miami every year.
Bledsoe hasn't done anything. Who says he's even better than Knight? (At least Burke hasn't been proven to suck yet). C-P probably maxs out as a 3rd guard on a good team (which is what Knight is already), and then they can tie up their cap space for another 7 years with Iggy. What future do you get out of that other than "not in the lottery?" Stop being an apologist. Trey wouldn't have won them any titles, but at least they wouldn't be bad AND uninteresting.
that bledsoe is still extremely young and raw, Mo Cheeks is the coach, and that bledsoe has been learning from CP3 for a couple years now. that lineup would have potential, all you need is to have drummond and monroe max out on potential and thats a championship contending team.
Both are good, but not great players. They don't have the potential to be great. They are what they are. The Pistons NEED a superstar. That is how you win in the NBA.
Burke is not a superstar, but he plays the most important position on the court. Seeing that the Pistons are in no positiont to acquire said superstar the pick ought to have gone to filling the PG position like they did the C positon with Drummond. If they could somehow add an elite SF or SG THEN that team would be a serious challenger like the Bulls are.
Look at the Bulls for how to build a NBA squad.
Suck enough in a draft with a franchise player at the top and get him. But Joe likes his end of season 5 of 7 win streaks.
Even that is fool's gold at best.
How many titles did the Cavs win with LeBron?
How many did the Nuggets win with Melo?
How many did the Magic win with Dwight Howard?
How many did the Hornets win with Chris Paul?
How about Blake Griffin and the Clippers?
Your dream line-up for the Pistons has zero chance.
And it's amazing you're regularly acting as the defender of the NBA here then turning around and now saying that it's really a joke because maybe two or three teams with certain players can win it. No NBA hater could have made a better argument again the League than your "dirty little secret."
I love the NBA but that's still true. I don't see it as bashing. It's the way the league has always been. Jordan and Hakeem make up the rest of the 90s, and IIRC, either Bird or Magic appeared in every finals in the 80s. Wilt and Russell took up the entire 60s and some of the 70s.
I love the players and the league first, my team second. So it's not really a problem for me.
I have thoroughly enjoyd watching LeBron win the last 2 titles, but if Duncan had won his 5th I would have been equally excited.
I don't look at the NBA through a Pistons-centric point of view.
The NBA does, in fact, suck.
Or at least if one likes the NBA great; if one likes a team, fuck 'em.
I'm a fan of a team that isn't the Heat and I don't think the NBA sucks.
Judging everything by championships is kind of dumb. College football would be absolutely no fun at all, seeing as there are far more teams than exist in the NBA but only 2 or 3 capable of winning a championship.
I like the NFL, but the Lions aren't winning a superbowl any time soon.
I like Michigan football and will have a great time in the fall, but we aren't going to win a national championship this season.
That's what makes college football unique and great. And why driving to a playoff will ake it as unsatisfying as other sports.
The Lions are a bad example because they're not winning because of being stricken with bad ownership. Not because the design of the sport means you have to be the right city/have the bet player/hope the players collude/etc. Any team from any city can win, and team's chances can prop actually flip year to year. Miami obviously doesn't have an advantage over Green Bay. And you can be the 49ers, being awful enough to fire your coach to the Super Bowl in a couple of years.
In the NFL merit in running an organization is rewarded. In the NBA you need a lot of luck too.
If you think Drummond isn't going to be a superstar. He was ultra productive despite the fact he is still raw offensively. He is a monster around the rim and has freakish athleticism.
His ceiling is a rich man's Dwight Howard. That is a high praise considering Howard was a beast until he went to LAL
what he is, is fucking 23. players dont just start sucking after 3 promising NBA seasons. Drummond has played 1 NBA season and hes only 19. youre telling me that he will never get any better? im sorry but you have no clue what youre talking about.
What has Bledsoe shown that makes you think he's any good? As long as Mo has been coaching can anyone name any other PGs he's developed, or was Westbrook maybe just fucking good? What are Drummond and Monroe's max? Frankly, I think Monroe is pretty close to hs max...a borderline occasional all star, and Drummond, while a lot of potential is more Tyson Chandler upside, not Shaq. Certainly not the pieces of a championship team.
that every NBA team takes. however, sometimes its the only option for teams who have been in the dumpster. bledsoe is a FREAK athlete. so freakish that he was in the dunk contest this year. he plays great defense, and is very strong when going to the lane. Mo developed players the best he could because his front office couldnt give him a quality guard. Drummonds max: 22-12 with 2-3 blocks a year. yeah, that could totally happen in 3-4 years. he could be a top 10 player in the league. Monroe? 20-10. if he improves that nifty jumpshot and gets a PG who is more pass friendly, he could even be better than that. Drummond comparison to chandler is fair, but i think the best comparison is Dwight Howard, only not the mind of a 12 year-old.
Even though he played in the SEC, 18PPG is still pretty good. And he was rated close to where he was drafted.
I've been able to live without any Fab Five players or anyone on the 1989 title team playing for the Pistons in their prime, so I'll get over this. I've moved on to seeing what middling free agent they'll get since no big name wants to play out in Auburn Hills.
How dare you forget T. Mills. One of my favorite doughy players of all time.
You realize that unless you have LeBron you're not winning a title, regardless, right?
Every single title since the Jordan era has involved Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Shaq, DWade, or LeBron.
So basically, unless you have one of the elite of the elite players, of which there are like 1, maybe 2, any given year in the NBA, you're not winning anything.
The best you can do is just build a solid team, and hope that maybe one of those guys will want to come to your team via free agency if you have the cap space, or will want to be traded to your team because of the assets you've stock piled.
What would you suggest the Pistons do to build a legitimate contender as an alternative?
Have you seen him play defense? That alone makes him orders of magnitude better than Knight. He's basically the same as a playmaker, and his rebounding is elite for a guard.
He is much better than Knight.
we should trad KCP and our 2014 first rounder, plus singler if need be, for bledsoe. the lineup (assuming IGGY):
Free agent X/ Stuckey (until we find someone to take him off our hands)
its good until Iggy cant produce the numbers that he used to (keep in mind hes actually fairly old) and thats a servicable lineup for the next 2-3 years until situation A: we run out of money from signing monroe, iggy, drummond, bledsoe to long-term deals or B: we find a quick answer to the SG spot (either through free agency, trade or draft, but most likely would be trade) and we immidiately become EC contenders if lebron leaves the heat in 2014 or their team is weakened in some other way. in any case, theres hope that we can have a good team for a long time like the early 2000s days if we find the answer at SG before Iggy washes up.
Because we may not even have next year's pick unless it is near the top of the lottery.
forgot about the stupid maggette trade. i would just trade the 2 remaining picks we have, and add singler to the deal as well.
Why would you ever trade KCP for Bledsoe? That literally creates far more problems than it solves. IIRC, we can't trade our 2014 1st round pick because of the Ben Gordon trade in which we gave up a future 1st round pick.
That's also a ridiculous amount to give up for Bledsoe. you're basically killing our back court depth and giving up a future 1st rounder when one of our future 1st round picks is already going to the Bobcats. So that would create a situation where a rebuilding team doesn't have a 1st round pick 2 years in a row. Absolutely disasterous
Why is Brandon Knight listed nowhere in your post, and are we really going to ride with Stuckey starting another year? There really aren't any solid 2 guards available in free agency.
It also doesn't make any sense, because the trade I laid out (Bledsoe for Knight and 2 2nd round picks) is a far better trade for the Pistons than the one you laid out (Bledsoe for KCP, Singler and a 2014 1st round pick).
Isiah is that you?
put him in at the free agent X spot, stuckey can be traded for 2 valued backcourt bench players, sign a guy or two using our MLE, and hold on for dear life. the heat survive without bench players and draft picks because their best players are so good. the pistons can do the same if drummond becomes a shaq-like player, knight becomes a guy who averages 17-18 PPG, bledsoe plays stellar D and improved offense, Monroe approaches a 17-8/17-9 and Iggy plays good D and averages 15 PPG. Bledsoe gets no more than 10 or 11 PPG in this scenario, but that starting 5 all have the potential to be all stars this coming season.
That team is nothing more than a middling squad. You need superstars to win championships. That team has zero superstars. You have no true point guard nor a dominant force in the post. All you have is a collection of good-to-decent players. That translates to one-and-dones. Sorry, but that isn't a bright future to me.
You apparently are suffering under the delusion that the 04' Pistons team can be replicated. I think that is a hiuge mistake considering the rules in place in the NBA. The league was been designed for superstars for 35 years. You need to build your team accordingly.
You're the one who is suffering from the delusion that the 04 Pistons can be recreated. Hell, you said as much in the NBA draft thread. In fact, I specifically stated the Pistons shouldn't recreate that team. So what are you talking about?
Greg Monroe is already a borderline all star.
Despite that, people seem to think Andre Drummond is the best player on our team and has the potential to be the best center in the league.
You need superstars to win? No shit, but superstars don't fall out of trees.
What does a "true point guard" even mean? And why do you need one? The Heat didn't have one for any of their 3 championship runs in the last decade. Jordan's Bulls never had one. Kobe and Shaq, and then Kobe and Pau's Lakers didn't have one. You don't need a true point guard to win. Chauncey Billups wasn't a "true point guard" and the Pistons won a title with him.
People seem to think the Oklahoma City Thunder have a pretty bright future, they went to the finals last year and they don't have a true point guard.
That's absolute nonsense.
You don't even know who Caldwell-Pope is and you've probably never seen Eric Bledsoe play a game in his life and you're already dismissing both of them.
The Indiana Pacers don't have a true superstar and they almost made the finals. The Memphis Grizzlies don't have a true superstar and they were in the WCF. It's definitely possible to build a team this way, in fact, the new CBA is geared toward teams building from within instead of going out and trying to create "Big 3s."
Greg Monroe is a solid, but not great player. Who exactly said that Drummond ahs the potential to be the best C in the league? Cite your source.
Again, the teams you mentioned had SUPERSTARS. As I repeatedly said in LIEU of having a superstar you need a true point guard. Also, you forget that Pippen and James were the facilitators for those teams. They were/are those squads PGs and were/are pretty damn good at it. Those teams did not need traditional points because they had 6'8" guys who could do the same thing. You also forget that Jordan averaged aroudn 5 assists a game in his career and Wade averages 6. The Bulls also had Bill Cartwright who was apretty good passer out of the post.
You keep forgetting that I put the caveat of " having a superstar". You need to stop editing my argument to make yours work.
Th 2004 Pistons were an exception to the rule. But even then Billups was outstanding at his position. Yes, he wasn't a great passer, but he was an exceptional leader.
I'm not dismissing either player. What I am doing is treating them for what they are--good, but not great players.
How many titles have Indiana, OKC, the Grizzlies won? Zero. OKC also has a two superstars. That Indiana and the Griz almost made the Finals in a year that saw Rose not play and the Lakers and Mavericks implode makes one wonder if that was an anonmaly. I want to see how those teams do with Rose playing and the Lakers back to their usual standard with Kobe in the lineup. Maybe you are correct that the league is heading towards a more egalitarian approach to winning championships. But I haven't seen it come to fruition as of yet.
if you watched any of the games last year, you would know that he is very good on the glass, extremely athletic, great on defense and hes only 19. he will get better, and he will be one of the best centers in the league at some point
Greg Monroe is a great building block, and if you don't know the hype surrounding Andre Drummond, or just how good he was last year, that's only adding more fuel to my accusation that you have no idea what you're talking about.
The praise for him just goes on and on and on as having the potential to be one of, if not the, best big man in the game.
First of all, I didn't forget that Pippen or LeBron were the faciliators of those teams. Why the hell do you think I brought them up? Because they didn't have traditional point guards and instead relied on team passing or point forwards to get the job done.
Secondly, your post is completely nonsensical.
You are seriously saying things that are complete gibberish and making points that either make no sense or don't need to be made.
Teams can't win titles without superstars? Cool. Everyone knows that.
Teams that don't have superstars should get floor general point guards? That makes no sense because like you said, teams don't win titles without superstars, so shouldn't they just look for superstars instead? You know, guys with monster potential like Andre Drummond, or the obvious types like Andre Wiggins or LeBron James?
Teams don't need to have a floor general or any nonsense like that if you have great team passing. Take the Spurs for example. Yes, they had a superstar in Duncan, but they ran their offense through multiple players (Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili).
The thing about the NBA is, it's not even about having a superstar, it's about having THE RIGHT superstar.
Every single NBA title since Jordan retired has involved either Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, LeBron James, or Shaquille O'Neal. Look it up if you don't believe me.
So that's 5 guys who have essentially dominated the NBA for almost 2 decades. If you didn't have one of those 5 players, you probably didn't win shit. That's the dirty little secret of the NBA.
So even this idea that you need a superstar to win is bullshit. Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard, Tracy McGrady, Chris Paul, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, all superstars in the past decade, didn't win shit.
So you know what you do in light of that? You build the best team that you can in the hopes of either creating a mid 2000s Pistons like run of success, or you constantly tank every single season, praying you can land a LeBron James/Kobe Bryant level of player.
One of those is a far better gamble, and much better for job security.
Actually isn't the one that's better for job security. You say the title has only been won by teams with those guys since Jordan retired....how many have been won the way you say is the better gamble? A grand total of one.
And of the five guys you listed, only two were drafted with a team's pick. Even if you can't sign or trade for one if the players, you could trade for the pick like the Lakers did. As long as you don't, you know, use it to draft Darko.
See the comment above.
Basically tanking for a franchise level player has resulted in 1 championship with the team that drafted that player (Tim Duncan and the Spurs) over the past 20 years.
Assembling a team form scratch without a superstar has also resulted in 1 championship over the past 20 years.
Neither one has proven an effective strategy.
So there's a chunk of your 20 years. Lakers traded for draft pick that would be Kobe. (5 more titles). Heat drafted Wade. (3 more titles. They don't get LeBron without Wade.) Mavericks drafted Dirk. A title and another appearance. Hell, even the Celtics drafted Pierce. Appearances by the Thunder, Magic, Cavs, 76ers, Pacers, Knicks in the Finals in your era were all with players they drafted. And a lot of those teams that won were also Finalists. So over your time period the ONLY teams not winning off the backs of their draft picks were the Pistons....and the Nets. (And if you want to go back further than your arbitrary post-Jordan years, it only gets far, far worse for you.) I'd say finding a great player in the draft is pretty important for success in the NBA.
That's not the point I'm making though.
Kobe doesn't count because no one tanked for him. He wasn't considered a "franchise level player." He was picked 13th, at the very tail end of the lottery.
You could make a case for DWade, but the franchise level players that year were LeBron and Carmelo. No one was tanking for DWade.
Dirk was not a franchise level player that people tanked for. He was picked 9th.
Pierce was picked 10th.
No one tanked for any of those guys. So the point stands.
Tanking doesn't work any better than building slowly over time.
Unless the foundation for it comes from a draft pick. However you get it. Anthony or Wade could be Pistons; doesn't matter how you got the pick. But the Pistons are giving up picks in a great draft for salary cap space in a horrid free agent class year...when everyone says no great free agents will come here anyway. The Pistons have had four shots in that same draft range and have gotten no one as good as those guys. (I like Drummond but anyone who is extrapolating his advanced metrics into becoming Wilt is just being silly).
So when your dream line up is together what is their next move to not being a 2nd round ouster every year? They don't have any.
Do you? Tony Parker was not a floor general type of point guard for the Spurs' championship teams. You could make a case for 07, but certainly not 05 or 03.
The team ran their entire offense through Tim Duncan. He was the primary play maker and facilator. Parker split ball handling duties with Manu Ginobili for those titles.
That fact that you did not know any of this, and then tried to criticize me, citing ignorance, is deliciously hilarious.
Dallas Mavericks and Boston celtics. But they both did have franchise type players like dirk and the original big 3.
can definitely be replicated. I dont think that anyone understands this, but the pistons are one of the class-act teams in the league. The reason why we dont get top 3 picks every year? we dont tank. We still managed to get a servicable roster out of our filthy draft spots. this is the best any SMALL MARKET team can do. The pistons will never be able to sign a superstar out of free agency, despite what some believe. Dumars has seen the change in the league, and has decided that instead of tanking and drafting superstar players who are out the door as soon as their rookie contracts expire, he goes for more of a team approach, a la the 04 team. thats the only small market team to win a title in the last 10 years save san antonio. so not only is that a good option, but i believe that its our only option.
Defending the Pistons management, or just arguing to a bunch of self proclaimed NBA haters, who admittedly don't care, know anything, or watch any NBA basketball, that the world isn't over because the Pistons didn't draft Trey Burke?
He was a terrible fit for the Pistons, and if they supposedly have a potential trade lined up with the Clippers swapping Knight for Bledsoe, then that drafting Caldwell-Pope makes perfect sense. Hell, drafting Caldwell-Pope over Burke to play with Knight makes a lot more sense than drafting Burke.
As usual, your butthurt clouds your judgement.
Now you're just making up things and attributing them to me.
If you can find where I've said Knight belongs at point guard, that would be great. I would wait, but I never stated it. So you're full of shit for saying that.
How was Burke a terrible fit? Do you read the things you write? I don't know, maybe because that other guard, Brandon Knight, is 6'3" 190lbs, so adding Burke (6' 190lbs) would create one of the tiniest and most defensively deficient backcourts in the league. Not to mention the fact that both guys aren't super athletes or exceptionally quick for their position.
Both Knight and Burke can play, but not with each other. They need to be teamed up with a bigger guard, and in Knight's case, a bigger guard who can be the team's primary play maker.
If it's true that the Pistons have a trade with the Clippers lined up (Knight and picks for Bledsoe) then drafting Caldwell-Pope over Burke is a good decision.
So I went from calling for Knight to play point guard to, "envisioning a scenario in which KCP and Knight would better than drafting Burke, which clearly implies that I think Knight is a serviceable point guard." Haha. OK.
Well, at least I'm not talking about other people's dicks.
He was a terrible fit for the Pistons,
Hold on - in the open thread, you were begging and pleading for the Pistons to draft Trey. Now he's a "horrible fit"? Come on, it's hard to take you seriously if you're going to swing 180 degrees like that.
Can't I have both? I wanted them to draft Burke, obviously, but I also realize he is a terrible fit, so I'm really not all of that torn up about it.
You realize that WHEN I TYPE IN ALL CAPS I'M NOT REALLY YELLING, OR MAKING ANY NOISE FOR THAT MATTER AT ALL, RIGHT?
how can you say that with a straight face.
2007-08, 1985-86, 1983-84, 1980-81, 1975-76, 1973-74, 1968-69,
1967-68, 1965-66, 1964-65, 1963-64, 1962-63, 1961-62,
1960-61, 1959-60, 1958-59, 1956-57
|16||Los Angeles Lakers||
2009-10, 2008-09, 2001-02, 2000-01, 1999-00, 1987-88 , 1986-87,
1984-85, 1981-82, 1979-80, 1971-72
(as Los Angeles Lakers)
1953-54, 1952-53, 1951-52, 1949-50, 1948-49
(as Minneapolis Lakers)
|6||Chicago Bulls||1997-98, 1996-97, 1995-96, 1992-93, 1991-92, 1990-91|
|4||San Antonio Spurs||2006-07, 2004-05, 2002-03, 1998-99|
|3||Detroit Pistons||2003-04, 1989-90, 1988-89|
|3||Golden State Warriors||
1974-75 (as Golden State Warriors)
1955-56, 1946-47 (as Philadelphia Warriors)
|3||Miami Heat||2012-13, 2011-12, 2005-06|
1982-83, 1966-67 (as Philadelphia 76ers)
1954-55 (as Syracuse Nationals)
It's very clear that some of you know less about basketball than you do football. KCP compares favorably to Klay Thompson. An excellent rebounder and defensive player. This just means the Pistons front office was either not excited about Burke, which is understandable, or believe Knight can become a better lead guard under Cheeks.
I'll be the first to admit I know next to nothing about the NBA, nor do I care to. That doesn't mean I can't be pissed when my hometown team passes up big name players for a player I've never heard of. I said the same thing when we passed up Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony for Darko.
KCP may turn out to be a good player - I don't think many people are specifically knocking him. But to have the chance to keep rooting for Trey on the local NBA team would have been incredible. I've become very apathetic about the NBA in recent year, but Burke on the Pistons would have changed that. I would have gone out of my way to watch them. I probably will not now. This pick is very risky from a box-office standpoint. Burke would have all but guaranteed larger crowds at the Palace.
Would Burke put more seats in the crowd opening night? Yes. But if this team was to go 30-52, you would still have "a paid attendance of 9,000" on a regular basis. No one's driving 30-40 miles in snowdrifts to see a point guard on a losing team.
Also, I'm sure a hefty chunk of the Piston fanbase is either Sparty fans or indifferent to the college game (The Detroit area is pretty average to below average when it comes to its college hoops fandom). Those people would look at Trey as a novelty at best the first few weeks of the season until the Pistons are either resurrected or back on life support.
Now if you're assuming Trey Burke = Pistons in the playoffs, that's a different scenario. But I don't see a playoff team with this current outfit plus anyone in the draft outside of maybe Otto Porter.
You seem to be assuming that 1) there aren't many Michigan fans in Oakland County and 2) that Michigan fans are unlikely to also be Piston fans. I'm not sure why, because I grew up in Oakland County and knew tons of fans of both. Put Burke on the Pistons and a lot of those lapsed fans will start to follow the team again. And they'd have sold a lot more ticket packages for next year than they will now. This is a franchise that had a long sellout streak not that long ago. The potential fanbase is there but totally unmotivated at the moment. I don't think KCP can move the needle, but Burke would have. There might even be some fans who refuse to buy tickets over this decision.
And I do think Burke would help them a lot on the court. I'd love to see him run some high ball-screen action with Monroe or Drummond. Give those guys a real point guard to work with and they'll flourish. And we know all about Burke's leadership, which can't be taught.
I think he'll have a good career and passing him over is going to be a topic of discussion on local sports radio forever, just like the Darko pick. KCP is going to have to carry the burden of being the Guy Who is Here Instead of Trey. If he's as good as Trey, that won't be enough. He has to be better.
If you win, fans will show up. If you lose, they stay home. If Burke helps them win, they will be there. If Burke is just a Michigan kid on a losing team? Well it will be the same old story at the Palace.
Like I said, the Burke novelty would have worn off if they're still getting roundly beaten by the rest of the Association in December. I don't know when you lived in Oakland County, but if you started watching the Pistons in the mid to late 80s, then you haven't experienced a big losing stretch like this. So it's easy to say fans will come out. They were good most of those years. And in the years they were not good, like the pre-Grant Hill years, people stayed home.
When the franchise had their long sellout streak, that was with a team that went to six straight conference finals. There were no Michigan players on that team, outside of a one-legged C-Webb. All they did was win and that was what made it worthwhile to go out there.
I'm not ready to buy into comparing this in any way to Darko. Considering most people who outside of this message board are okay with the pick, KCP will be just fine.
It's better to lose with a player no one wanted? For your point to have any merit you'd have to believe Pope would help them win more than Burke.
And you're wrong, most people aren't ok with it. Twitter is killing Joe and call in's to the radio tonight have been overwhelmingly negative. So right or wrong, it's very unpopular.
And that's perimter scoring. And yes, I do believe that Pope would have a better effect on the W/L percentage than Burke. I've watched enough Piston games to know that Brandon Knight has a high basketball IQ. If he is unable to grab the starting PG position, there are pieces to trade to bring in a quality PG. My goodness, everyone acts like BK is a ten year vet who's done nothing. The kid has been in the league only two years and has not had a chance to settle in at one position. Bringing in Trey prevents that from happening.
I don't do the whole Twitter thing, so I don't know what knee-jerk reactions people are having right now. And I refuse to turn on 97.1. Those mediums are there for people to voice their displeasure. Just because people are being vocal does not mean they represent the majority of Pistons fans. I won't be skeptical about how much those people actually follow basketball or would even go to a Pistons game, but what I do know is that once November rolls around, if the Pistons start out playing well and winning games, people will show up.
Burke brings something they lack too. A distributor. Considering they need someone to get te ball to their best players, that seems like it would help you win more.
Knight hasn't settled in because he's a combo guard. He'd be great first guy off the bench but he's not a PG.
But how about a basketball fan view?
The blog has also been pushing for Burke for some time.
of the game. You don't win championships with Klay Thompsons when your team has no leader. You don't draft role players when you have the chance to get a floor general.
The top 3 teams in the East (the Pistons' competition) were the Heat, Pacers, and Knicks. Tell me what great floor general point guards they had running their teams?
Apparently you are unaware of his supreme passing skills. Also, this other guy named Derrick Rose did not play last year. His team is generally considered the second best Eastern sqaud when he is playing.
I didn't know LeBron James played point guard. So I guess you don't need a floor general point guard to win. =\
Unless you think Knight or Pope can become the floor general or the benefit of Pope as a 2 with an ok general alongside him- his point still stands. Since he did say floor general, he never said PG, we are banking that we have that floor general on the roster now or with the picks
Then you have a valid point about how the pistons might win. Or are you saying there.s a second LeBron out there, who'll be around at pick #11 or whatever the pistons are stuck at drafting for the rest of Joe's tenure?
LeBron is not a repeatable trend. Neither was Jordan. Everyone else has to have the stud center or the amazing point guard.
They're an extremely young and exciting team with this draft swap. Tons of cap space where they could bring in a major name this yr or next and be the unfulfilled promise the Clippers showed this yr
I stopped caring about the Pistons when they brought in AI. Tonight only further solidified my decision.
the pistons made a bad choice, yes, but they arent obligated to choose every M/Msu player who comes out of college. i regret that they didnt take burke and id be lying if i wasnt a little angry about it but i dont run the league. every team has ups and downs, and you cant blame JoeD for building a potential playoff roster out of this years team from nothing. im a M fan through and through, but im not going to turn on one of my favorite teams just because they didnt take my favorite player in the draft.
but how is this offtopic?
It'll be the two-fer of getting Dumars fired and actually being bad enough to get a high pick in a GOOD draft rather than Dumars win games when everyone else is tanking it strategy that keeps them from every getting a superstar.
Still a Pistons fan. They didn't draft Burke becaues they had other needs. I get it. The last time they drafted a local boy high was Mateen, and we all know how that worked out. I think Burke will play great in Utah, but 7 other teams passed on Burke and the team who did draft him clearly did not expect to keep him. If he does wind up becoming the next great PG, a whole bunch of people will have made the same mistake.
The last time they drafted a local boy high was Mateen, and we all know how that worked out.
I really hope this was not the logic Dumars used. Mateen Cleaves was a major reach at #14, and people knew it right away. No other franchise would have taken him there. It was a gimmick to sell tickets.
Burke OTOH was a consensus top-10 pick and Utah was thrilled to snatch him. He's going to be a good player. That he was a local college guy was an added bonus.
And for all the people complaining about how they stopped watching the Pistons when they did X (which around here seems to be when AI came in because apparently there is a subset here who rely on Brian's knowledge of sports to fill in their own), get over it. It was a calculated risk, and it didn't work out. It happens. Billups and co. weren't going to get any better, and at that point you take a chance on a different approach. I don't love the direction of the team - I think we've seen Monroe's ceiling and its the 3rd/4th option on a good team - but every team goes through rebuilding steps.
but with a PG who isnt extremely selfish and if he develops that jumpshot just a little more, he could be a 20-10 guy consistanly. plus drummond is going to be a hot commodity this year with numbers close to a 17-10 and 2-3 blocks. this team can be very successful too, and i think that they can make the playoffs this year with drummond starting.
I don't know what Brian's thoughts were, but bringing in an over-the-hill ballhog to play the point for a team built around playing as...a team wasn't a calculated risk. It was competitive suicide. We needed a solid inside presence, wiffed by drafting a human victory cigar and failed to get it done on the free agent scene. If they had brought in a player like Garnett, they could have won several more championships. That was the beginning of my frustrations with Dumars. It has just spiraled down from there.
Not everyone lives and dies by Brian's opinion, especially when it comes to any topic outside of Michigan football. Personally, I had always disliked AI's selfish, reckless abandon, streetball style game. It may have been fun to watch and even worked in some situations, but it was impractical for any team where the goal was to win games through teamwork. He was a parasite on the Pistons in so many ways. They were a team, and to replace the glue that held them together (but probably needed to go anyways) with a leech was no calculated risk: it was a stupid way to free up some cap space regardless of how it would negatively affect that season and Joey D knew it. There's a difference between cutting your losses and preparing for the future and what transpired in 2008. Joey D turned his back on the fans then, and has given me little reason to come back since.
They're climbing a mountain at this pace.
And the problem wasn't getting AI, it was turning his salary space into Charlie V and Ben Gordon (Read: Not shit) in the stronger free agent goup ever. And is STILL maybe costing us a draft pick in the best draft in a decade next year.
Not gonna lie, but I don't think this is as horrific of a pick as everyone is making this selection out to be. Dumars has more than earned the right to be on the hotseat, but he's not a complete moron considering he's won an NBA Championship. I guarantee you that he took into account the increase in ticket and jersey sales that drafting a hometown hero like Burke would've led to for a team that has struggled in fan support. The way I look at this pick, they must have really liked Pope to give up all of those Burke benefits.
positional deficiencies and what you need to win games in the NBA. Short of having a superstar on the roster, most NBA teams need to be strong at the PG and in the front court C spots(preferably both) to consistently win. The Pistons already have two decent talents in Monroe and Drummond. What they need now is a PG and SG. Since the PG is the brains of your team you have to go with the PG if two similiar talents are available at PG and SG.
if the Pistons had a good young PG already on the roster KCP would be an outstanding pick. But they don't. Thus, the outrage over the pick.
Thanks for your insight, I agree with everything your saying. Basically what I was saying in that last post is that the Pistons must think that Pope's potentiall and benefit to the team is greater than what any of the top three point guards could've provided them; aka they don't think Burke is a point guard to build around. I was just trying to say that without getting downvoted
Dumars has more than earned the right to be on the hotseat, but he's not a complete moron considering he's won an NBA Championship.
Yeah, but there are a lot of people who thought John Hammond was the real guy behind the scenes who put that team together. Hammond left for Milwaukee, and look what's happened to the Pistons since then.
Although there could be truth to that, Its not like Hammond has built some winners with the Bucks lately. I think the Pistons downfall is a combination of some gambles that just didn't work out, and the Karen Davidson "ownership" where much of the team's resources were frozen.
Milwaukee hasn't set the world on fire, but they've been better than the Pistons four years running. They made the playoffs this year.
Hammond won the NBA's Executive of the Year Award in 2009-10. Among other things, that year he let Charlie Villanueva walk, while Dumars signed him. That kind of sums it up.
Jut because Joe D makes stupid decisions doesn't mean I won't still root for my team.
If you aren't a Michigan fan, picking an undersized PG without a deadeye shot isn't exactly the way to go.
As for championships, the NBA title requires a superstar. As long as LeBron is LeBron, the Pistons aren't getting past them without one - they should take whoever has the best chance to turn into that guy, regardless of risk or need. It's unclear to me if that's Burke or Pope, but Pope does have the size that Burke will always lack.
and it's not like Pope wasn't a good college player in his own right either. SEC player of the year on an otherwise crappy team isn't something to be ashamed of
He has about as much chance of being a superstar as Burke does. Size? Lot's of guys have size. It's skill and athleticism that matter in the NBA. Both players are to be found wanting in both areas.
And I really like Burke as a player, but I think Minn might actually have gotten the better end of the deal. Shabazz has upside that to be a solid scorer and if he works hard and gets a right hand could be a very good role player. And I think Dieng is going to be a strong big down the road. Great length on defense, a 15 footer is loved from bigs in the league, and he can still develop a little back to the basket game while the NBA transitions to more and more of a face up game, which suits him. I don't think he'll be a star, but he can be Roy Hibbert type player in a couple years.
So now you have a good PG, you put shooters around him at the Wing and PF, and a big that can hit a 15 footer. Two good bigs to play high/low and kick to Shabazz. Then on defense, you have two great rebounders, one that is solid in the post and the other a very good weakside shot blocker.
Looks like a team that's another wing and a perimeter defender away from making a push in the playoffs.
Agree. Minny could be pretty fun to watch and put up some wins
Was the laziest player taken in the draft. His indifferent work ethic and lack of hustle lack year at UCLA were disgraceful and a large part of why they had such a disappointing season
whichever team that comes to/starts up in Seattle.
But I still will root for the home team.
Then again I do live in Vegas now.
I love the Pistons and Joe D but he can't live off of that ring in 04 forever. I think Trey was a little shocked we didn't take him.
Na, nagga, nagana watch the Pistons any time soon
I root for the name on he front of the jersey, not the name on the back or the people calling the shots. I'll root for Trey to so well in Utah but go Pistons.
No TV here, but Chad Ford and the other guys are saying he's a steal. All I know is he's a PF.
at the start of the year, he was projected to be a top 10 pick but faltered a little when both he and his team struggled. i think its a steal as well.
I was concerned after every image I found Google-stalking him had him with a drowsy look. And some of these were in-game photos.
he'll play both SF and PF. He's basically a Paul George clone. The similarities between both players are striking. Both have great size and freakish athleticism. Their production does not match their athleticism/potential. They both played at a bad small school team and assertiveness/work ethics are their big concern.
It's a perfect gamble by Dumars at 2nd round where Mitchell can be a potential superstar if he develops and reach his potential. If he doesn't pan out, it's not a big deal since it's a 2nd round pick.
But boy they are sure trying to make me.
Can't give up on the players on the Pistons even if the GM is a dummy, I will, however be following the Jazz and Knicks very closely this year.
Wow you guys are a bunch of whiny pussies. You don't even know how any of these players will play out.
Apparently drafting he had one more "fuck you" in him by drafting another guard, Siva from Louisville.
golden state warriors easy
but not a happy one. I loved Joe D as a player, but he's been making some suspect moves for years.
Love the Pistons' 2nd round picks. Tony Mitchell is one of those classic diamond in the rough or complete flameout types. No risk with a 2nd rounder.
Siva is a tough little guard, who can play some D and could lead a team for short stretches in the NBA. He makes it so we can let Will Bynum walk.
So Rasheed Wallace is in talks with the Pistons to join as an assistant coach. This NEEDS to happen.
Because the Bulls are going to whip the Piston's butts for many years, reminding them of the huge mistake they made.
Supersonics... Needless to say I haven't cared about the NBA in a while
When the Pistons string of success came to an end, I gave up on the NBA. I guess I am a "Wizards" "fan" but the Wizards are frequently terrible and don't deserve my attention.
I've become more and more interested in the NHL now.
After sleeping on it I am still pissed at Joe
I live in Florida and have stuck by my Magic through 2 superstar disasters. Dipo is going to be a nice piece for the Magic to have. They have a good core to build around and will have cap room to sign a superstar soon. Watch out!
I'm amazed at people insisting PG was a greater position of need than SG when the Piston's have a very likely shot at resigning Caledron (a ship that would have sailed has they drafted Burke), a veteran PG that delivers. Then later drafting Siva gets us depth at the 1. I think the Pistons had a good draft night even though I was emotionally invested in rooting for Burke in a Piston's jersey. They hired Mo Cheeks, a former PG with a coaching acumen for developing young talent, and seem to be heading toward hiring 'Sheed, a dominant big man that I think will make a good positional coach for us.
I've doubted JoeD in recent years but these seem like coherent moves consistent with an overall strategy that used advanced stat metrics. That's a big shift from how the Pistons approached the draft in years past.
And thus continues the neverending string of Detroit pro sports teams avoiding Michigan players like the plague when given the chance to take one. I'm 53 and if somebody told me today that the MSU Athletic Director was secretly the General Manager of every team in Detroit over the the past 40 years I would believe it.
Don't understand how this is "ANOTHER," bad Joe D pick. We've gotten Moose, Drummond, and Knight last three drafts, and have a good track record in the second rd. Everyone wanted Darko, especially because teams had limited access to him before the draft, and didn't know his affinity for clubbing, and not working.
Brandon is a PG, who turned himself into a 190 battering ram, to bounce off every center in the nba, because we had no one else who could get to the rim, and he couldn't pass to himself.
KCP is a starting nba shooting guard. Not a star, but the pistons have always been about the sum is greater than its parts.
but its hard to be...I will still pull for them though. Love me some Jazz now. Lord I hate the Knicks but I will pull for THJ....great guys.
Jazz, Lakers, Clippers and Knicks in that order. I will not be rooting against the pistons, but I will not be rooting for them either.
I've never been one to follow NBA basketball, but I kind of want to follow the Knicks now.