Is Notre Dame or Northwestern worth the coin over UM? $60K vs $30K
We all love and appreciate what UM has done for us. My sister's son was accepted last month, and he has a really good shot at ND and Northwestern too. I don't think he has any idea what he wants to study, so far he's just really well rounded. I know my sis and BIL will come to me and ask if the $30K per year premium over UM's in-state is worth it for that status badge. Even as an alum, it's a really tough question to answer. I know for a fact Notre Dame is nearly impossible to get into if you're not a legacy.
I'm sort of responsible for getting him hooked to even caring about NU and ND in the first place. I visited the campuses with him when he was in 9th and 10th grade, as I figured if he shot for them, he'd be a lock for UM. It worked, but he tried so hard that he has a very legit shot at both ND and NU, which kind of blows me away.
Is there a $XXXK household income threshold you should be at where this decision is a non-issue? e.g. under $200K go to UM, $350K+ let the kid go where he wants?
January 28th, 2015 at 6:08 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 6:10 PM ^
Depends. If you are going to get a random LSA degree, it might be worth it to go to Northwestern or ND instead,idk. However, if you are going into any of the specialty schools like Engineering, Business, Nursing,etc. definitely not. All of those schools are top ten.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:42 PM ^
NU Econ will give just about the same options as Ross except for students at the lower end of NU.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:11 PM ^
He really should figure out, even generally, what he wants to study. If his ultimate goal is going to require a professional degree such as MBA/JD/MD, all the schools should have similar cache provided he does well. But if you are going for engineering or CS, for example, UM is significantly better, while NU is fantastic at journalism and ND is the tops in terms of faux-elitism. And from a financial standpoint, figure out what the damage will be everywhere (some private schools give you more financial aid, but there are differences between outright grants and loans, obviously).
As was mentioned in some other thread, have your sister tell him this is a very important decision, and as such she'll be making it for him, and to pack his bags for A2.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:21 PM ^
ND is the tops in terms of faux-elitism.
Literally laughed out loud for that one.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:11 PM ^
The night school at Northwestern is a LOT cheaper. Same degree. My wife got her undergrad there. Maybe he can get a day job and work his way through night school? Better than racking up debt.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:13 PM ^
I wouldn't call that impossible to get into. Personally, I don't think Notre Dame is even in the same league with other elite private schools like the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, or Vanderbilt.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:16 PM ^
"Notre Dame has a 22% acceptance rate" I'm told 20-30% of the class is reserved for legacies.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:24 PM ^
22% of all applicants get accepted to Notre Dame; the amount of legacies in the class doesn't change that statistic. Most elite private universities have an acceptance rate around 10% or lower. If it is true that 20-30% of Notre Dame's class are legacies, I would argue that would make the quality of their class look worse.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:49 PM ^
Not a chance they reserve that many spaces for legacies. Roughly one out of every three students being the son or daughter of an alum? A school that size? Not a chance.
Getting into Notre Dame is not even remotely as impressive as getting into Northwestern/UChicago/Duke or schools of that ilk. Northwestern is probably worth the extra money over UM (barring certain majors), Notre Dame is not.
One thing both ND and NU have, however, is more of a focus on the undergrad experience. At UMich you are kind of thrown to the wolves in LS&A, less so at Ross and other programs. Northwestern and ND don't have Michigan's research or grad school prestige (with the exception of Kellogg, NU Law, NU Med) which I think may actually be a good thing because they focus a bit more on undergrad teaching instead of loading everything up with GSI's. Michigan really falls down on that one as do their peer public schools.
January 28th, 2015 at 7:40 PM ^
I'm going to have to disagree a bit on the GSI point. In my experience the large courses taugh by GSIs were limited to the first few semesters but once I got into upperclass work I was in smaller classes taught by professors. Even in the larger courses the professors made themselves available to people who took the initiative to go and talk to them.
Also I sometimes found the GSIs more interesting and helpful than the professors anyway.
January 28th, 2015 at 8:40 PM ^
on the department too. In my 12 Econ classes I had 1 GSI (in a summer class) but a couple of Associate professors who didn't have their contracts renewed and 1 visiting professor.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:14 PM ^
It does depend in part on what field of study he's interested in. But if he's in-state it's hard to argue there's a better deal than U-M unless it's any Ivy or Ivy-equilalent (e.g. Stanford). If he's as competitive as you indicate, Michigan will want to keep him from leaving home and may even offer him a full-ride. I know people who have been accepted early into Michigan and then received a full-ride scholarship offer quite late in the game (I think even as late as April but don't quote me on that), so you may have to talk with people from the University to see what the timeline is like.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:17 PM ^
What makes an institution "worth" the outlay?
The question is entirely subjective, and different individuals might make different, but equally valid, choices.
For me, a father who sent one daughter to the University of California and two other children to Michigan, the answer is that Michigan is a great choice.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:18 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 6:54 PM ^
Sure it is. Michigan's pre-professional programs are far better. Michigan's research opportuntiies are far better. Michigan's science programs are far better. Michigan's graduate schools are far better (Med, Law, and Rackham). Undergraduate liberal arts are comparable between the two schools. I'm sure Catholics appreciate and get value out of the faith aspect of ND, but that doesn't make it better academically. Michigan is the better overall institution.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:18 PM ^
I don't believe in spending $30k/yr to discover what a kid wants to do. My son is graduating in June and was all over the place with what he wants to do...Special Ed to Business to whatever. I strongly suggested he take a year to actually work fulltime, save money, and experience life then in a year he can make that decision. The money I have saved for his education will still be there.
He sent in a few applications to places and got accepted with generous scholarships as well as one school offering him the chance to play baseball (another thing he's not sure if he wants to continue after HS!). I told him that if he's at all serious about going to those schools he needs to have a conversation with the admissions people to keep that door open in the future.
Sorry OP, it didn't answer your question but I can't speak to that. I just know too many recent graduates with a boatload of debt who aren't even sure what they want to do.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:18 PM ^
Perhaps we should see what Greg Mattison has to say about your nephew's chances at going to U of M or not going?
January 28th, 2015 at 6:20 PM ^
Having been a student at both UM and NU, for undergrad, I'd recommend UM every time, before even taking cost into account. Not even a doubt. The diversity of people and experiences alike that you'll find in Ann Arbor far outweigh Evanston--even with Chicago, which most undergrads seem to ignore anyway.
As far as ND is concerned, academically, I wouldn't even consider it a peer institution to the other two. If you ask me, throw it out the window.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:23 PM ^
Both Northwestern and Notre Dame are regarded as top-tier private schools. Michigan is obviously a top-tier public school. All three are probably considered "Top 25" overall. At that point, it's up to your son to build his resume (transcript and internship/co-op experience) for future employers.
It comes down to what kind of experience he is after. Are "Football Saturdays" a big deal? If so, then the lean is perhaps Michigan or ND. If he'd like a large urban environment, then the decision might favor Northwestern.
As someone who has hired recent college graduates, I can say with certainty that a graduate with a 3.0 GPA or better and co-op or summer internship experience from any of those schools would be looked upon very favorably. I suspect it's the same for graduate schools admissions offices, as well.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:23 PM ^
Including the program and any faith-based needs.
Off the top of my head, if you're not going into journalism or theater, then M should be pretty comparable to Northwestern all around. But, of course, the specific programs deserve research and should justify such a massive difference in price.
If faith isn't an issue...then I'm not sure what specific programs ND would have that would be more alluring that what M can offer.
Signed,
Not a Recruiter
January 28th, 2015 at 6:39 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 6:36 PM ^
No it's not worth paying double to go to ND or Northwestern over Michigan. I don't care what you study it's not worth paying twice as much for basically the same thing. College is what you make of it. If he works hard he can excel at any of the three schools. Michigan happens to be half the price.
Definitely tell him to go to Michigan.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:26 PM ^
UofM as a whole is the better school though.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:27 PM ^
Really he should go where he wants to go. Depends on what he wants to do.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:28 PM ^
ND and NU are both great schools as is Michigan.
Michigan is a bargain if you are in-state. If you are out of state, the cost of attendance is 55-58K and more realistically, a bit more than that....call it 60 K. I believe the number of OOS students at Michigan is close to 40 percent.
If you are OOS, there are no financial advantages of attending one school over another, although there are other obvious factors that might push me toward Michigan, but I'm biased.
http://www.finaid.umich.edu/TopNav/AboutUMFinancialAid/CostofAttendance….
January 28th, 2015 at 6:28 PM ^
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January 28th, 2015 at 6:30 PM ^
It's important to consider the individual along with the institution and find the best fit, rather than just focus on the school. Michigan is a special place in that you can go there not knowing what you want to do with your life and whatever you pick, you'll have access to world class resources and professors that are leaders in the field. Great for someone that's focused, self-driven, and outgoing, but nobody's going to push those opportunities on you. Nobody's going to hold your hand and push you in the right direction if you get overwhelmed or distracted by the wrong influences. If you like competing and you're the type that will seek out opportunity, then Go Blue! If you want a little more guidance, you might have a better experience (from a professional standpoint) somewhere else.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:30 PM ^
You are basing this on the wrong facts. I know this to be wrong: "I know for a fact Notre Dame is nearly impossible to get into if you're not a legacy"
I am positive you have a misconception about this.
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January 28th, 2015 at 6:48 PM ^
"You are basing this on the wrong facts. I know this to be wrong: "I know for a fact Notre Dame is nearly impossible to get into if you're not a legacy"
I am positive you have a misconception about this."
This was just me re to someone suggesting ND wasn't an impressive place to get into. I know valedictorian rock star kids who’ve been rejected by ND. At my church there are maybe a dozen ND kids, there are 200 UM kids. Doesn't make one better than the other, but there's no question ND is tougher to get into. But many people don't care about exclusivity or
"prestige" that comes with that. I understand that too.
January 28th, 2015 at 7:03 PM ^
I know lots of ND grads. None are legacies. Not a single one. It's is hard to get into, but so are many schools. It has nothing more to do with legacy than any other school.
If's not nearly possible if you are good enough to get into good schools.
EDIT: I just looked quickly and ND's acceptance rate is 22% while Michigan's rate is 32%. That is not a HUGE difference. Plus, the acceptance rate doesnt take into account how varied the applicant pool really is for each school. You probably need to look at other data.
I am comfortable saying ND is harder to get into, but not "nearly impossible.: I bet that, if you can get into UM then you stand a really good chance of getting into Notre Dame.
The reason you know so many more UM kids than ND kids at your church is because you live in Michigan. Most parents and kids either dont apply to ND or dont want to pay for it for the reason in your opening post. I would draw acceptance criteria from something like that.
Also, as every here says it depends on the type of degree you want, the important criteria is in the college at each university that you would attend. That is WAY to important to not be considered.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:55 PM ^
ND is harder to get into than UMich. It is also significantly smaller. ND's prestige does not come from exclusivity. I know lots of people that wanted to do the Catholic college thing and turned down ND for Georgetown and Boston College. The ND social experience is great if one is the type that might join a cult.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:34 PM ^
Absolutely not. The only way I'd even consider it would be if I were a hardcore sports fan of those schools. The difference in educational quality absolutely is not worth paying twice the money.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:33 PM ^
It was ultimately worth it to me. I met my wife there and made friends and connections that have benefitted me tremendously both personally and professionally. That's probably just college, though.
Ultimately, what matters most is being in a place where you fit. And that's hard to figure based purely on analysis.
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January 28th, 2015 at 6:42 PM ^
We should note in clarification that while Michigan doesn't have a J-school, we still regularly produce professional journalists via the Michigan Daily.
January 28th, 2015 at 11:33 PM ^
I ultimately went to Northwestern because I wanted to learn from professors in addition to the editors and mentorship I could find at the campus paper. The connections out of Medill are very real, as well.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:36 PM ^
For a kid that doesn't know what he wants to do, I don't see how an extra 30k a year is worth it.
Michigan is very highly ranked in dozens of programs. You could change you mind major wise and still be at an elite school. Engineering, Business, Mathematics,.... ........ humanities......
I can speak to Michigan engineering, and it is very highly recruited. About 300 companies are on campus for the fall career fair. Many very top of the line compamines (like Lockheed) that only recruit a handful of schools, recruit Michigan
January 28th, 2015 at 6:45 PM ^
IMHO, among those three schools, I'd apply to all three and take the one that offers the best deal.
1) At that level, the most important factor in your nephew's education is your nephew. All three schools have great faculty, great peers, great networks, and great reputations. If he excels at any one of them, he will do well.
2) I can't imagine any differences that would be worth $120,000. I hate to say this, but if you had put a $120,000 check in front of me and said you would give it to me if I went to OSU, I would hate myself and you, but your indencent proposal would give me a lot of grief. The advantage of leaving undergrad in a decent financial position can't be overstated.
3) With that said, sometimes there's financial aid, so it can't hurt to apply and see what's up.
January 29th, 2015 at 7:36 AM ^
Are often in a position - funded through their endowments and other sources - to make the tuition bill come out pretty competitively with in-state tuition rates. If the student is highly sought after coming out of high school (due to grades, test scores, athletics, community service or some other factor) the money will often take care of itself.
That's what I've been finding as my daughter considers her options. She's been accepted to a couple of public universities and is waiting to hear from two private universities. The private schools' tuition is at least 2X the public schools'. However, both of the private schools have told her that she would be eligible for grants and scholarships that - lo and behold - bring our financial burden down to the level of the public schools (actually, slightly less). That can't be accidental.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:47 PM ^
These circle jerk threads are a hoot. My favorite line from this thread: "Some of my best friends are ND grads"--uh, yeah. As if message board guy or girl runs in circles with multiple ND grads, or really, college grads of any kind.
LOL at Mgoblog.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:48 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 6:48 PM ^
Or does this post, like the one by the OP a couple of days ago about Grosse Pointe high schools feeding to UM, have a troll-like quality to it.
January 28th, 2015 at 8:26 PM ^
Agreed -- it's almost bot-like. There have been other interesting posts touching on socioeconomic issues.
- - -
While I'm here, I think the answer is staggeringly obvious: Go to UMich FFS. I might give the same answer even without the $30K disparity.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:53 PM ^
Disclaimer: I'm an MSU grad with a Michigan MBA.
There is no way to justify even paying less and going to ND. It's just not as good a school and its effin ND! If the costs were the same, you could make a case for NW, but not for another $30,000.
We just went through this with my oldest son. He was accepted to Michigan, Georgia Tech, Purdue, Texas A&M and Rose-Hulman for engineering. All were out of state for us from Arizona (Rose Hulman is private (80% male and in Terre Haute!) They are all very good engineering schools and all have great job placement and graduate school admission records. We would have loved to send my son to Michigan, but even with a $10K scholarship, it was $30K more per year than A&M. We could not justify the expense, particularly with two more boys heading to college in fall 2015 and 2016.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:54 PM ^
didn't think so. I got into ND and UM and wanted to go there (to get away) but at the time (late 80s) the schools were ranked pretty closely and the old man wouldn't spring for it. I was on the fence so I didn't care.
I am very happy with my choice. ND is a great school but I don't think being a Domer opens up more doors than a Michigan degree does. Maybe in Chicago, or Indiana. Our alums are more prolific and just as successful.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:54 PM ^
You really haven't given enough info.
- Where does he want to go?
- What program is he interested in studying?
- Where does his family live?
I've spent time on all the campuses, and there are positives to all of them. In many ways, I don't think you can go wrong. I'd really want him to go to all three campuses, and spend time looking at the program (or programs) he is interested in. You can actually meet profs in that area, and get a feel for the strength of each program.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:54 PM ^
There is not an undergrad degree in this country worth 60,000 per year.
January 28th, 2015 at 7:04 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 7:04 PM ^
Allow me to introduce Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Chicago, Stanford, MIT and several others.
January 28th, 2015 at 7:04 PM ^
"There is not an undergrad degree in this country worth 60,000 per year."
And yet all of the top 25 colleges in the nation have hundreds of thousands of applicants with millionaire parents willing to pay full ticket. You must know something they don't?