not coming to Michigan.
Players want to go where they can develop and win. Talent is always available for winners.
not coming to Michigan.
Players want to go where they can develop and win. Talent is always available for winners.
Ok sure but I still think the regression on offense would be more than the improvement on defense over the next couple of years
As one of the announcers during the PSU game noted, most of Denard's gaudy stats came against cupcake opponants. I do not believe that we would suddenly have trouble with these teams if there were a new coach. As of now, our offense still has struggled against the only two quality defenses that we have faced. What would be different? As for the defense, it couldn't possible be worse than it is now, and a new regine might be able to get more out of these players.
Dude our least amount of yards so far was 380 against MSU. That wouldve been near the season high in most years under Carr.
But as we know, that was more a function of Carr being very conservative than anything. When his teams needed to score, they scored.
Good point but I still don't see how the next coach could afford to be conservative with what they will inherit on the other side of the ball. Nobody would be saying anything negative about the offense if we could field anything that resembles a defense.
I am a big believer in defense wins championships so on that note I'm disgusted. However I have no trouble saying that this offense under Rodriguez will be one of the best in michigan history, particularly next year
I don't think anyone is pining for a coach as risk-averse as Carr was. There aren't many coaches like that anymore. Nowadays, punting from your opponent's 35 is pretty rare.
how many times his last four years did they score enough to beat OSU. How many times did they win in South Bend. How many fourth quarter collapses were there when we up by 7 or more points? They scored when they needed to?
Do you seriously not see the problem in this statement? Ask yourself, if that really would have been a near season high for Carr, why is that the case? (hint - it has to do with defense, running, controlling the pace)
Low yardage has nothing to do with controlling the pace. That's a BS argument. Carr's teams had more chances to accumulate yardage because the defense could actually force the other team into 3 and outs. Our offenses weren't as good under Carr, period. Michigan's offense under RR is doing amazing things despite having a horrible defense that allows the other teams to have a much higher time of possession. The other teams are keeping the offense on the sideline with time consuming 10 plus play drives.
You must have missed the post that showed there were other offenses that scored more points than this one, whereas the same Lloyd offenses would actually increase their scoring in Big Ten play, unlike our current offense whose numbers are going down in Conference play (and most likely to go down ever further with Illinois, Wisconsin and OSU still on the schedule), after having feasted on an extra OOC cupcake and FCS school.
Why does everyone bring back tempo and time of possession as a valid argument? I really don't understand. Also in response to jmblue above I can see Carr being a bit more conservative (had the luxury to do so with killer Ds)...but only so much so. I don't get how our offense is that much more "aggressive" as we tend to run the ball even more than Carr did (running is generally lower risk than passing, regardless of the type of offense).
Here's some tempo free stats for you:
Michigan 2003: 4.25 YPC, 7.39 YPA, 135.64 PE
Michigan 2006: 4.27 YPC (43rd in the nation) , 7.67 YPA (36th) , 143.71 PE (26th)
Michigan 2010: 6.37 YPC (4th), 8.95 YPA (9th), 155.33 PE (19th)
And remember this is with a sophmore first year starter at QB. In 2006 Henne was a junior with a ton of talent at RB and WR. In 2003 Navarre was a senior and had the same amount of talent. Our RBs were much more talented or reliable in 2003 (Chris Perry) and 2006 (Hart) than any of the RBs we have now.
This offense is going to be insanely good and probly the best in the nation once the execution errors get smoothed out.
I think he only looks at the scoreboard. Yea we put of 17 pts against MSU, but I'd be happy with 380 yds of offense on a down day.
And not points.
We'd still be 5-3 if that were the case.
As the mistakes go down and denard ages we will be able to score more often
7 Freshman and Sophomores on the field most of the time. Has anyone of the brilliant graduates here figured out how that youth ranks us in major college football. I would bet that that is the major reason why we are a bottom defense we have probably the youngest. Maybe I will waste my time and figure it out but since I don't have 500 or 1000 points I cannot post (if I get to 1000 points I will drop off this site)
IMHO, I would think a good coach can do pretty well with good players for any system. There are good players here on offense and I think we can run a pro style and be successful. Of course, we would need some time to transition.
With these players, I think we would do better with the spread than pro, but we would still be pretty good. The key is I think we have some great players on offense.
My vote would be still to keep Coach Rod here.
THIS TEAM SUCKS!!!!! When are you people going to wake up? It's gonna take 3-4 years to rebuild what? To rebuild this garbage defense and special teams he has put out for the last 2+seasons?
If the only move made on the defense is to get rid of R. R., it would be addition by subtraction. The experiment is over....let's move on!
You conveniently fail to mention anything about our offense in your logic.....
Why is that?
Our defense consists of almost all freshman and sophmores at the most important positions? How the fuck do you think a new coach is gonna suddenly turn these 3 and 4 star kids into Lock down corners and scary LB's in the big ten?
Take a step back and really think about it...
How the hell are you to say any other coach we bring in will be able to coach these kids up to all star level? You are getting way ahead of yourself..
Give it a rest
It was a response to your original post, but since there are so many replies to other posts it got pushed way down here..
You said "you think brandon would bring in a coach that could have a D as bad as RR"
So i said.. you actually think a new coach is magically gonna teach these freshman and sophmores we have running around on Defense into all stars? There is one problem with your argument.. and all the risk of completely cleaning house on coaches..
What is the gaurantee it works out with our next coach?
If you haven't forgotten RR was one of the hottest coaches in america other than Les Miles when we got him.
Even if we had Les Miles we may have a good D at this point, but it is obvious his teams have major problems on offense.. and he can't manage the end of a game for his life
Well they shouldn't get worse on D considering how much depth and exp we will have.. I def agree that we need a different D coordinator.. and people say RR is too stubborn to do it, well if it means either that or his job, im sure he will be canning some people after the season.
I'm not gonna argue one way or the other on a coaching change because I have no idea, honestly, but the "they can't get worse" thing has been said every season that Rich Rod has been here. This isn't meant to be against Coach Rod, but against the "it can't get worse" saying. I think we can agree the only time it can't get worse is if the opposing team scores every time they touch the ball. If it were true that it couldn't get worse then I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be much harm in keeping Coach Rodriguez around for another season.
RR has a proven track record of turning teams around everywhere he's been. it's wrong not to give a coach 4 years.
there's no denying the team is getting better overall each year. the trajectory may not be what we have hoped, but we will be even better next year and still better the year after that if we keep RR. no doubt about it.
UM 3 seniors, 2 jrs, 4 soph, 2 freshman (3,2,4,2)
I didnt look two deep, nor did I look to see how many are redshirt. UM 2006 = 7,3,1,0
at me from this data is, MSU's defensive experience is pretty close to what we have.
MSU (4,2,4,1) vs (3,2,4,2) us.
that our 3 seniors are Banks, Mouton and Rogers, none of whom would be likely to be playing elsewhere and all of whom were recruited by Carr.
Also Rogers is a converted, backup WR who hasn't played DB before. So even if he's a senior it's his first year at DB.
maybe produce a comprehensive statistical comparison of offense's in Michigan history? maybe going back 20-30 ish years? I have a gut feeling this might be one of the better ones in that time frame....the numbers have been really good...is it worth getting rid of a head coach who has proven he will have dominant offenses anywhere he goes simply because he has a VASTLY undermanned defense? I still just can't get past the thought that this team, with any semblance of a d, would be contending for the national title... Lloyd sure never had an offense like this...and I think he had the talent to put up these kind of numbers, but didn't...
We do not have to radically change our offense. RR is not the only coach in the world who has this system. We can hire a coach who will run a similar offense AND know how to coach defense and special teams.
i don't have the stats, but when henson was healthy that 2000 team was the best O i've seen here at UM. and i remember the leach days. i think this O can surpass that team next year.
It's probably not going to end up outscoring 2003, 2000, heck, probably not 1999. All Lloyd teams.
100% chance offense is even better with Junior Denard, etc.
25% chance that defense climbs out of 9th level of hell into a level where we are merely tortured and not soul-flayed and we sweat out 9 wins
100% chance the offense is worse due to everyone unlearning the last system, players leaving etc. - SEE RYAN MALLETT - See Denard go to Auburn or some other team
25% chance that defense climbs out of 9th level of hell into a level where we are merely tortured and not soul-flayed and we get ?? wins
Look - fire RR now and expect to relive the last two years as the offense goes up in flames with some new system.
Except that the programs that have transitioned from spread to pro-style have generally done so pretty seamlessly. The transition from pro-style to spread is the one that's trickier.
But beside all that, who says we need to change our offensive system? There are a lot of spread gurus nowadays.
Really spread to pro style has been seamless? Tell that one to Texas or Florida this year.
Brantley was the #3 pro-style QB in the 2007 class(right behind Mallett and Clausen) while Gilbert was the #2 pro-style QB in the 2009 class(right behind Barkley). Additionally all the other talent on the Florida and Texas offenses is probably higher guru approved than ours. So why if those teams struggled with the switch, would we have a seamless transition? And if we don't have a seamless transition, isn't it worth it to at least give Rodriguez one year with his own first recruits as upperclassmen when we KNOW the offense will be to semi to legit juggernaut and take a chance on the defense improving?
Why all this talk about having "his QB?" That is ridiculous. He needs "a" qb that isn't a true freshman or Threetidan. He has done just fine with every QB he has ever coached other than Threet. Why do you keep assuming he needs "his qb?"
While I think this is the most minor of quibbles, we have seen this offense this year run fairly well(if in different ways) by both Forcier and Robinson. And Michigan is one of those schools who will always get at least one top notch recruit at the QB position every few years(Mallett in 07, Forcier in 09, Gardner in 10)
watch the damn games. the O is pretty damn good with tate in there too. the d sucks. the D sucks. THE D SUCKS. because it's practically all frosh and sophs. there are no all american senior on this D (hell no all big 10 first teamers or honorable mentions either).
that florida and texas both changed coaches this year and are working with new play books
Well they didn't change coaches but to say they didn't change styles or playbooks pretty considerably from McCoy and Tebow would be very wrong.
show me a spread program that brought in a pro-style coach that then instantly improved the program. Then - what pro-style coach would be willing to come to Michigan now?
Or, a spread guy nearly as good as RR but willing to come to Michigan with his super DC also willing to come to Michigan on his coat-tails?
show me a spread program that brought in a pro-style coach that then instantly improved the program
Michigan State - from 4-8 in 2006 to 7-5 in 2007, with no real dropoff offensively. They've ranked among the conference leaders in offense every year Dantonio has been there, even though he isn't an offensive-minded coach.
As for who would come here, I don't know. I didn't expect RR would come three years ago. That's completely up in the air. But any idea that this is not a desirable HC job is nuts. We're the winningest program in history for crying out loud. Our next coach might well be a defensive-minded guy who is open to running the spread (which is the case at Oklahoma).
but your second reply "I don't know" is the main issue I have.
I'd rather give the man - who made our offense scary - a chance to improve his D than hope for an unknown.
Everyone is in love with Harbaugh (including my wife - beside the point) but he went 4-8, 5-7 the first two years. Isn't that the same as RR? A guy trying to turn a program in a different direction?
Someone needs to lookup old Stanford schadenfreude posts from '07 '08 to see how many were asking for his head.
What elite coach would want to come to a program where the previous coach was fired after 2 1/2 years? Coaches realize if the previous guy wasn't given a fair chance, neither will they.
I know...very disappointing loss at PSU, haven't we seen enough? I get it. But where is our confidence as Michigan fans? Have we not been 5-3 before, with hope of finishing strong? I know I am the optimistic type, but there is a lot of football to play...are we really convinced that this team won't finally get it (the freshman) and come out inspired against Illinois? Get their confidence back against Purdue, then come home and ride the momentum against a Wisconsin offense that plays into what strengths the defense has? Keep the faith, we could be heading to OSU, a beatable team, with essentially NO freshman...every player with 11 games under his belt, and then who knows...then the bowl game after 15 more practices and getting healthy. This team has a chance to still win 10 games this year....believe!!!
the post man...big posbang! just one break to go our way, and this season turns around...
OSU, Wisconsin, Illinois and probably even Purdue are going to run right over us, literally. If we couldn't stop PSU (starting a walk-on QB who never played significant minutes before) from hanging 40+ on us, what do you think everyone else is going to do?
PSU scored on almost every possession!!
What bigger break could you ask for than a walk-on QB starting against your D PLUS your opponent being riddled with injuries all over the place?
Pass whatever it is you're smoking, man.
He is smoking the same thing that makes you think we went against a walk on last Saturday. He was a redshirt Sophomore that had been in the system for 3 years and has earned a scholarship. Does he suck? Yes. Did he almost beat out Freshman Bolden at QB? Yes.