Wojo's latest article makes a pretty bold statement that I didn't expect to see from him before the osu game.
I'm interested to see the response, since his writing is usually well-taken around here.
Wojo's latest article makes a pretty bold statement that I didn't expect to see from him before the osu game.
I'm interested to see the response, since his writing is usually well-taken around here.
Everyone here can neg me to Bolivian, but if we get our asses whooped like we have against MSU, against Iowa, and against Wisconsin...I agree with Wojo that it may be time for change.
I wasn't aware that you could neg someone to South America, but i'll sure try!
I NEG YOU TO BOLIVIAN!
The thing is it seems like RR has given up on this defense. Yes, we all know we're extremely young and we all have an idea why we got there. But where's the fight? If anyone disagrees with me, why are we running out 5 DBs when Wisconsin is in 2-TE formations and running the ball 30 consecutive plays?
soon as we stacked the box, BOOM, play action.
But you at least force them to do something else. If the other team is successfully ramming the ball down our throats at 5-10 yards a pop, why would they stop?
like asking, "Would you like to die by 1,000 papercuts, or 1,000 ax blows to the body?" Either way our defense was no match for the Wisconsin meat machine. We have kids playing that months ago were trying to figure out how to get laid after prom. You expect them to be prolific in defending the play action, know all the reads, etc? You expect them to be strong enough to shake stalk blocks and take 4 quarters of pounding against the Wisconsin meatheads? I don't. Anyone in reality saw we were outmatched in that game and arguably every game while our offense has proved to be able to score on anyone.
That's exactly the apathy I'm referring to. We're young and outmatched, so who cares what we do....we're gonna lose anyway--just wait until next year!
Since when did reality=apathy?
Feeling apathetic and acknowledging reality are not contradictory.
Correct. And the members of the coaching staff are paid large sums of money to ensure that apathy does not set in, despite "acknowledging reality."
Congrats. You found the football equivalent to the infamous the Bobby Knight quote:
"If losing is inevitable, just lay back and enjoy it."
Doesn't make much sense here either.
I didn't see a lot of giving up on either side of the ball against Wiscy, I did see a lot of guys getting repeatedly run over by freight trains and throwing themselves back in the gaps (albeit to be out of position and blow a desperate arm tackle).
has not quit and will not quit. Not the players and not the coaches. They haven't yet and they are not going to.
They work too hard getting Barwisized to even think about it.
And of course, the fact that our defense is in the ruined condition that it is in is a major reason why our head coach's job might be in jeopardy. In year 1 you can talk about being shorthanded. If you're still shorthanded in year 3, you've mismanaged things.
I'll take a mismanaged defense on a still succesful team over the 3-9 abomination that occured in year three under Charlie Weis at ND. Obviously, that's an easy straw man, but things can be much much worse than 7-4 going into Columbus.
Who cares if we are 7-4 when we can't compete against the top 5 teams in the big Ten. Not one single quality win... Your probably happy as long as we keep beating Indiana and Purdue.
I see progress, and I think a young team rebuilt from the ground up is going to be competitive with the experienced and veteran squads in the top programs when they are experienced and veteran. I like Harbaugh, I think it would be awfully neat if he was the Michigan coach, but I'd rather not see this program become a Notre Dame when I see us on the way to being a midwestern Oregon.
...they stuck with a failed head coach far too long (Bob Davie who should have been fired after year 3), and in doing so did tremendous damage to the program.
Well, I would be upset if we lost to Indiana and Purdue, so I guess that much is true...
In year 1 you can talk about being shorthanded. If you're still shorthanded in year 3, you've mismanaged things.
This point I agree with.
He has mismanaged it, and I don't think there is any reasonable or fair objection to that. Howeva, whether he should be fired is IMO a different question. You can acknowledge that he mismanaged some things without immediately concluding he should go. As for me, a new DC and new staff would be enough to convince me that one more year is warranted.
Brazil is big....just saying
Chile is cold.
And Columbia is FREAKING AWESOMESAUCE BABY!
How did you know that was my real Suriname. Did you ping my IP Address?!
Guyana, go Falkland Island yourself.
Do what you want to yourself! I am going to Purus the bigten network for some M-OSU greatest games that we win.
You better Belize.
maybe because it's so skinny
That's what she said.
kinda looks like jersey is you tilt your head a little to the right.
Roh didn't see any action in the second half and I don't think Martin did either. Q's been over there for three weeks now I believe. So who are we going to put out there in a four man line and who is going to come in and spell them unless you want them to burn RS. Throw in the pictured holding that was going on regularly but was never called and Wisconsin is what it is.
Iowa didn't hand our ass to us and against MSU we left 21 points on the field in a 17 point loss. IMO, we played better against MSU this year than last when we managed to get into OT despite being dominated for for 3+ quarters. The D gave up 4 big plays that resulted in scores and the game should have been 14-0 us instead of 3-0 if not for two bad throws which resulted in a pick in th EZ and an open Stonum being overthrown in the EZ.
On the flip side of talking about games that were close and could have won, there are several games we easily could have lost: Notre Dame, Illinois, Indiana. We are pretty damn lucky to have won all of those.
but those games could have also been blow outs had it not been for a few plays. This argument can go on indefinitely. Regardless, I have my complaints about RR as everyone does but I gotta believe it would be a huge mistake to replace him or for that matter talk about replacing him with so many recruits hanging out there in the wind. Those same recruits that could be watching this board. I hope RR can pull the trigger and make the changes, staff or otherwise, if he is given the chance. If not, what is one more year really going to do?
I know quarterback in his first full season as a starter, etc....
The MSU game was like the games of old where we came in and played with confidence, and bullied them around making them make mistakes. And every once in a while they didn't make those mistakes and won the game, but usually spent the off season saying "man, if only those three turnovers were touchdowns".
Face it, this style of sloppy football in the face of good opponents, and close games in the face of average to not so good opponents is a three year trend ...
I don't think he has actually given up, but I don't think he has any idea what to do about it.
but I see it as the same as working with family. He has built up relationships, as wojo stated, with certain position coaches and is worried what his friends will think of him if he pulls the rug out from under them. Now I'm not saying that should matter cause when it comes down to your job, you better be able to make the tough decisions but with so few friends around the program, he may be trying to hold on to as many as possible. Or he is going Samurai on us and showing organizational accountability falls back on his shoulders so he wont throw his guys under the proverbial bus. If thats the case, I kinda respect him for that but for his own sake, he better make the call or DB is likely to make it for him.
...if you are worried about hurt feelings you should never be in charge of anything (as long as you hurt those feelins respectfully).
It sounds like a great place to go, but I can't find the damn place on a map.
Allow me to rant on this for a sec:
It's a sports reference that you don't get. Obviously, it sounds ridiculous and, moreover, it looks ridiculous. Notice that it is capitalized. The poster surely knows that it's a demonym and a proper adjective indicating origin in the nation of Bolivia. Your post indicates not that you're a super-informed guy who knows —unlike the poster above (or me, last week when I posted it before and got a lot of the same comments) — that Bolivia is a country, but that you're simply not in on the joke. I'll explain: Mike Tyson (reportedly) answered, after losing (I think) to Lennox Lewis, that he'd probably just "fade into Bolivian" now that his career was apparently over. [Too bad it wasn't over, he went on to fight a couple more depressing times including one that I saw live. He got knocked out by some guy named Danny something and everyone in the crowd just thought it was sad. Even Mr. T, I imagine, who was there wearing a gold dinner plate, fork, and spoon hanging from his gold chain.]
It was an instant classic Tyson malapropism that many, many people (lmgtfy?) have used in mockery or homage, all of them knowing that a Bolivian is someone from Bolivia. Who knows, maybe Tyson did too and he was just adding a bit of levity to the situation, playing up once more his image as an unforgivable stupid boor monster-thing that made him millions (and got him convicted of rape)?
All I want to know is anyone negged to Bolivian play the corner?
Legit question: going into this season, did you see OSU as a must win game for RichRod? If not, what's changed between then and now?
That's the only question that should be asked at this point. I think everyone needs to go back and review their expectations coming into the season and compare to where we are.
I think we are where we expected to be. Unfortunately we lost most of our toss-up games, but with the attrition, injuries and youth, seems like we've done pretty damn good.
That said, I'm sick of the debates and articles, although I will continue to read and reply to them. All I have to say is:
GO BLUE!!! BEAT OSU!!!
I think its valid to use a bit of hindsight when discussing this season -- mostly based on things you could not have predicted in your original expectations, such as injuries and strength of opponents.
Considering our defensive two deep, and based on the unforseen relative strength of both MSU and ILL, I think our tossup games were: Uconn, ND, PSU, and ILL --- We went 3-1
OSU, WIS, IOWA, and MSU (sad face) are elite Big 10 teams this year -- and we simply are not. I'm just talking about personnel here, especially defensive -- I don't care who the coach was -- our defense would have sucked.
Here's the good news: With RR, we will be elite next year. Nobody returns as many starters, nobody has as much room to grow, both offensively and defensively.
do you really think we'll be elite next year? maybe offensively, but as a team, defense and special teams, we may be closer but not close enough.
We wont be an elite team if our kicking game is even remotely close to what it is now. If we are beyond extra point distance we go for it on fourth down, or play russian roulette with a fg attempt...
I don't think I would be happy with 7-5, especially with our soft early schedule. I think I would only grumble with 8-4 and close games, and would be very happy with 9-3 and a team that bounces around the upper half of the BCS rankings.
We will not be "elite." I think at best we sneak into the top 25 by year's end. Our D and ST will continue to hold us back.
While it certainly isn't guaranteed, ST is something more susceptible to a "quick fix" in the off season. (New kicker, iffy kickers going to kicking camp and ironing out their inconsistencies, one of our slot-type ninjas settling into reading return lanes with the experience, ect.). I would like to think the D will improve just with the added size and experience, but something with that many variables is harder to assume. Has anybody done the stats on Wisconsin to see if their kickoff squad is especially bad, or was it us starting to find better rhythms/returners?
I didn't think so. But when people asked the "How many wins..." question, I thought if we only had 7, then one better be against osu (or at least, State). That opinion obviously doesn't mean much, but I felt that a 7-win season without some big wins would not feel like a whole lot of progress.
I still think he should be kept, but it's definitely a gamble either way.
1. Our defense is beyond atrocious.
2. We lost to MSU, so losing to OSU would mean going 0-6 against MSU and OSU over the past 3 years.
3. We have yet to beat a team that finished the season ranked in the Rodriguez era.
4. The Penn State loss was unacceptable given Penn State's depth issues and Penn State's ability to run all over us despite having a poor rushing attack. If Rodriguez is going to lose games that he should win, then he'd better win some games that he should lose.
5. Rodriguez has failed to fulfill expectations for the third year running and the Ohio State game is the last chance he'll get this season to reverse this trend.
I personally don't think this is a must-win game for Rodriguez, but it is certainly reasonable to think it is, even if you didn't think so at the beginning of the season.
1. We kind of knew that defense was going to be bad before the season started.
2. Every team's streaks have to break sometime. Usually in a transitional period. We are not a invincible team with angels in the endzone protecting our streaks against rivals. Shit happens.
3. It isn't our fault that ranked teams in the beginning didn't finish ranked.
4. Almost agree with you, but no one expected to get McGroined. Why did we get McGroined? Look at #1
5. Most expectations at the beginning of the season were 7-5 or 8-4 and a bowl. Expectations met.
6. It has only been 3 years for RR. Charlie Fupa got 5 at ND and that was without real progress. 2008 (3-9), 2009 (5-7), 2010 (7-5 or 8-4) with a sick nasty offense, 2011 (???) with a sick nasty offense and a better defense. That kind of looks like progress.
The preseason consensus on the D was that it would be about as good as last year's. I don't remember anyone predicting that it would be the horrible nightmare that it is. Even if someone did, that hardly exonerates the staff. It's their third year. In year 3 you should not be at the very bottom of the national rankings in one phase of the game (and if that weren't enough, we're last in the country in kicking, too).
Our gross mismanagement of the defensive side of the ball will cause heads to roll. The only question is whether it's only GERG's or if it's also the man who hired him.
Honestly, the only difference between this year's D and last year's is Brandon Graham. We miss his beast and have been kept from progressing anywhere else by departure/injury/unjust universe.
Donovan Warren, Steve Brown, Troy Woolfolk were arguably our 2nd 3rd and 4th best defenders, or am I forgetting something? The defense obviously shouldn't be this bad, but c'mon.
No, I agree. Had we notn been come down with Angry God-itis this defense probabaly would have been near or maybe even a little better than last year's (which is still awful).
why I said kind of. The defense was the same minus Graham, then T-Wolf going down, and J.T. Floyd going down forcing the move of players to different positions than they were originally supposed to be red-shirted for. I guess we can argue this till we are blue in the face. We can all agree our love for Michigan and the joy a Michigan win would be this weekend. No matter what any of us say it won't affect DB's decision. Agree to disagree.
osu sucks. Go Blue.
I agree with you that we all love this team (sometimes too much) and we all just want to fuckin' beat Ohio St.
Why do so many people think replacing GERG is the answer? Aren't the position coaches even the least bit culpable? Do you think they'd jump up and support a new scheme if another DC with no (or limited) 3-3-5 experience came in? I have a feeling these guys (and RR) are the ones calling the shots, not GERG. GERG is handcuffed. Sure, he may not have been the right guy for the job, but to ignore the performance of the other coaches is silly.
I'll say it again -- word around the campfire is Gibson should not be coaching college football. He may be a good recruiter, but he's not a good secondary coach.
1. This defense is not merely bad, but atrocious. This is at least partially attributable to the coaches for a variety of reasons (inability to develop any sort of secondary depth through preventing attrition and successful recruiting, inept institution of the 3-3-5, inept playcalling, inept coaching in general, FIRE GERG, etc.).
2. I'm talking about a significant losing streak to our top rivals, not protecting a winning streak. There's a big difference.
3. The point was that we have yet to beat a legitimately good team in the Rodriguez era...
4. My main issue was with Royster running all over us when the PSU rushing attack isn't good and our most experienced position groups are the DLine and Linebacking corps.
5. If you expected 8-4 or 7-5 with a win over MSU or OSU, then expectations have yet to be met.
6. And keeping Weis for five years really did wonders for Notre Dame. And consistent progress on offense coupled with consistent regression on defense indicates that our ceiling is ultimately perpetual mediocrity (albeit exciting mediocrity).
Keep in mind that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I believe Rodriguez should come back. However, I think that we've been engaging in groupthink to the extreme on this issue and I find that to be both irritating and pointless.
but I am not in the mood to argue today so I will touch on the one I absolutely agree with....#1.
The defense being this bad 2 years into a DC's term is not just partially attributable to the coaches, I would say it is completely attributable to the coaches. I have been a big supporter of Gerg since he came (mostly due to blind optimism) and hoped beyond hope that he would be the answer. Two years in it is clear that he isn't.
We can all throw the reasons for this around (young, inexperienced, injuries, etc etc etc) but in the end they don't change anything, they are our reality right now. IMHE, looking around college football I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a coaching staff to be able to have their team (whether young and inexperienced or not) showning improvement by this point in the season.
That improvement would look different depending on the team. I have not expected our team to jump from the 100's in D to the top 50. I am simply talking about some improvement. We should be seeing guys tackling better, taking better pursuit angles, knowing there assignments in zone coverage. These are simple fundamental things that we should be seeing improvement in by this point in the season.
To my knowledge (and eye, which granted is not as good as the likes of Brian and Magnus) we have not seen improvement in these, the fundamental areas of the game. That tells me that all the valid reason for our defense being poor aside, this defensive coaching staff has failed in developing what we have available on our roster.
Again, I am not saying anyone should have expected this staff to field even an average defense. It is perfectly reasonable, however, to have expected to see improvement at this stage, and to me we simply haven't.
Bottom line for me is that we should keep RR around and get a completely new defensive coaching staff. If RR won't dump his WV cronies, then I guess he may need to go as well.
We haven't beaten a real ranked team. Wisconsin was in the top 10, but only won 7 games. They weren't very good. And ND is ND. Overrated every year. Not beating a top 25 team in 3 years is bad.
2. Does anyone have Christopher Lloyd's # for Saturday?
1. So, it's OK as long as you know that your defense isn't going to to good? What about building a defense so it actually can be good? LC left this team with three five star defensive players (Graham, Warren and Mounton). Michigan hasn't added a defensive player of that nature since he left. The potentially two best defensive recruits under RR (Dorsey and Turner) are no longer with the team. There's only one four star defensive recruit currently committed at this time. I realize that "stars" aren't everything but they're indicative of a direction.
2. Is it just coincidence that the streaks were broken on RR's watch? Simply happenstance?
3. It doesn't really matter whose fault it is. The final polls give you an indication of how good a team was during a particular season.....much more indicative than a pre-season poll. The fact is that Michigan hasn't beaten a team that has proven itself to be good over the course of a season.
4. See point # 1. RR's resume would be much more attractive if he had beaten PSU or MSU this year.
5. Again, why are expectations so low in Year 3? Why is it considered a major victory to beat Illinois in 3 OT's at home?
6. I think that you're answering your own question here. ND probably made a bad hire when they got Charlie Weis. He certainly wasn't their first choice (sound familiar?) and he might have stayed on too long preventing the team from reaching a higher status. Michigan has a chance to avoid that issue.
I'm not saying that RR should be fired. In fact, if they don't get Harbaugh it might even be a bad decision to cut RR loose. However, I certainly think that it would be reasonable and justifiable if DB chooses to take that route.
No, I didn't. I don't think any ONE game is a must-win and I caveated my initial post by saying how we showed up against OSU has a large part to do with it.
Wisconsin, Ohio St, and--as much as it pains me to say it--MSU are all good teams this year, so it's sort of understandable we're young and we lose these games. However, it's the way we're losing and utterly being dominated that is tiring. I know it's a youth thing and it's 18-19 years old vs. 22-23 year olds, but our defensive alignments aren't even giving our players a chance when you have DBs trying to match up against TEs and FBs. Have we just given up and now we're saying we're young so we don't even stand a chance? I'm tired of going into Ohio St. games with little expectation of competing.
It's funny how the thousands of preseason How Many Wins threads were so annoying but now 7-5 means RR should be automatically coming back. Before the season started, I didn't expect to beat both UConn at ND. I would have LOLed if you told me Denard would pass for 2,500 yards and set the record for rushing yards by a QB. I didn't expect our most impressive Big Ten game to be a last second win at Indiana or a triple overtime thriller against Illinois. I thought we would be competitive with MSU and I remember Chengelis writing that it was a must win. So much has changed since August that I don't think it really matters what we were thinking then.
Frankly, I think a win against OSU would be a big feather for Rich to make a "stay, but lets fix case". I think a close loss or bad loss makes no real difference to where he currently stands. (i.e., at this point loosing to OSU is not a reason to fire him, but beating them may build the case to keep him.)
FWIW, before the season I said bowl game, at least break even Big Ten record and one signature win over a major opponent. (I didn't include MSU as major, and I did include PSU. The definitions flip flopped in season.)
Nobody is saying Rich Rod has to win this game, Wojo isn't at least, and neither am I. But we need to see that Michigan is competitive against the Bucks and, with a year of seasoning, will be reasonably close to where they are next year. That means not being blown out.
Believe it or not, most of us are grown ups. We can accept a tough transition. But we need to see steady progress.
I'm a Michigan football fan, not a Rich Rod fan or a spread option whizbang offense fan. I want Michigan to win football games. If they can do that with Rodriguez, great! If not, we need to consider alternatives.
With any luck, the final score will be respectable and Rich Rod will stay and the team will be something like 9-3 next year and we'll all be in a lot better mood.
I'm surprised how many people didn't get the Mike Tyson reference in regard to "Bolivian."
I kind of agree with you on this one, but I doubt it will happen.
... so my tolerance for bullshit is low and it's been a day full of bullshit on Mgoblog. That being said:
Best post ever.
Thank you, Ernest Hemingway of MGoblog, thank you.
Michigan State was 6-7 last year with less room to grow.
MSU was unfortunate to be 6-7. They went 2-5 in games decided by single-digits. This year they've simply won those close games.
We're actually fortunate to have the record we have, being 4-0 in single-digit games. How that will translate to next season is anyone's guess.
Honest question: do you think MSU last year was a better team than UM this year?
Edit: Also they didn't have to play OSU or Wisconsin. Also they simply won one game less, at least. These differences work both ways.
MSU beat Wisky this year
Whoops and they lost to them last year. My mistake.
I'm sorry, but you have to have maize-and-blue glasses on to think that. Again, MSU had a ton of close losses last year. They could have very easily won 3-4 more games. We cannot say that about our team. We've absolutely won every game that was winnable, and lost decisively the other four times. And while MSU's defense wasn't great last year, it wasn't the smoking crater that ours is.
It's better than whatever kryptonite-anti-maize and blue tint you're using. Stop assuming that because someone disagrees with you they're unreasonable; it's a tactic you use constantly and it's completely annoying.
That being said, they were last in the league in pass defense. No, they weren't as bad defensively as we are, but they were awful. They also weren't close to in our class offensively.
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a team that beat our team in overtime last year couldn't beat our improved team this year.
Their close losses fwiw, were to Iowa (good loss) Minnesota (bad loss) Notre Dame (Neutral and a team we beat) Central Michigan (bad) Wisconsin (good). Their close wins were against Purdue (bad) and Michigan (Neutral?).
My point is that they lost two games they should have won and let one team get close to them that shouldn't have. This doesn't make them unlucky, it makes them mediocre. Just like we are.
Last year we went 2-3 in single-digit games. This year we're 4-0.
Last year MSU went 2-5 in single-digit games. This year they're 3-0.
We were pretty unfortunate to have our record be 5-7 as they were to have theirs at 6-7.
They are just as fortunate this season to be 10-1 as we are to be 7-4.
2-3 isn't unlucky. If you play five close games, odds are that you'll go either 2-3 or 3-2. 2-5, OTOH, is pretty unlucky.
I agree that MSU has been fortunate to be 10-1, but so what? They're still three games better than us. And we've played one more close game.
And we're still one game better, at least, than they were last year. So what? Your logic is inconsistant.
Our overall record is better, yes. But they went 4-4 in Big Ten play, while we're 3-4 right now. And we're lucky to have achieved this record while they were very unlucky to have achieved theirs. They were competitive with virtually everyone they played, but just had a hard time finishing games. That description does not apply to us.
Fact: Michigan is better than they were a year ago. Fact: Last year's Michigan team went into overtime with last year's State team. Fact: Last year's state team lost to Notre Dame, while we beat them. Fact: We have a much better offense, both in terms of scoring average and total yardage, than State had last year.
See, I can cherry-pick facts that agree with my point of view too.
Michigan State is 10-1 and has beat us 3 straight years. Michigan State program is on the rise while Michigan feeds at the bottom of the Big Ten for the third straight year. Nuff said..
Just because the score says it was close, doesn't mean they were unlucky to lose as many as they did.
CMU (29-27) - CMU scores a TD and FG in the final :32. Unlucky loss
ND (33-30) - ND scores with 5:18 left to pull ahead by 3. MSU fails to score on 2 drives. Straight up lost.
Wisc (38-30) - MSU scores 2 TD's in the final 2 min, one coming on a 91 yard pass play with :15 left on the clock. Straight up lost.
U of M (26-20) - OT. Fortunate win.
Iowa (15-13) - AmeriStanzi to McNutt with no time on the clock. Unlucky loss.
Minnesota (42-34) - Gophers score a TD with 6 min left to pull ahead by 8. There's no drive chart on ESPN so I don't know how many chances they had but 6 min is a long time. Straight up lost.
Purdue (40-37) - Swenson hits the game winner with 2 min left. Fortunate win.
3 of their 5 "close" losses came in games they straight up lost or had enough time to win it (ND, Wisc, Minn). 2 unlucky losses in literally the final seconds of the game (CMU and Iowa). Both wins were fortunate (OT and game winning fg with less than 2 min).
Throw out the 3 straight up losses and MSU went 2-2 in close games. Not as unlucky as you think.
This year, MSU is very fortunate to be 10-1. And next year, they will be fortunate to be 8-5. Fortune runs both ways.
A fake field goal, fake punt, and blocked punt were the key plays in their wins against ND, Northwestern, and Purdue, respectively.
They are fortunate this year that they have 4 away games and don't play OSU.
Fortune IMO has little to do with things. Good teams always seem fortunate. They weren't good last year. They're better this year.
Interesting article. More than the outcome of the game, I think the possibility of losing out on Harbaugh (assuming he really is interested in leaving stanford) will create the most pressure for DB to make a change. Hoping it doesn't come down to that and a victory this week makes all this speculation moot
underpants gnoming the hell out of this whole situation. It seems like a lot of people are treating it as a foregone conclusion that if Michigan fires Rodriguez they'll A. hire Harbaugh pretty much for sure and B. become successful pretty fast.
I don't think either one of those is a guarantee. First, if Michigan does fire Harbaugh, there's no absolute guarantee he'd want to come here (full disclosure: I'm pretty forcefully on record as not wanting him to come to Michigan). I know Michigan is his alma mater, but he has a pretty good thing going at Stanford, and there's a decent chance he'd rather be in the NFL anyway.
Second, and maybe more importantly, there's no guarantee that Harbaugh would be successful here. His resume isn't any more impressive than Rodriguez's was before coming here. If anything, it's less impressive. And for those who think Harbaugh is a "Michigan Man" who runs the right schemes and knows what it's like to coach at Michigan, it's worth noting that, at the moment, Michigan doesn't necessarily have the players to run Harbaugh's schemes, especially on offense. I don't necessarily see any reason to think it'd be any smoother a transition than Rich Rod's was, and I don't see any reason to think Harbaugh would be guaranteed to win.
I think it's a risk that I think should give people more pause.
Pure speculation on my part: if RR is fired, it will be because Brandon has already gauged Harbaugh's interest.
That didn't work so well for Auburn when Tuberville found out about it...
And Auburn is really kicking themselves for losing Tuberville aren't they
Auburn went to talk to Petrino in 2003, which was 5 years before Tuberville actually stepped down. The meeting with Petrino leaked, and the university looked like a bunch of jackasses.
I'm a dumbass and I retract my comment
That's not a big concern. Teams do this all the time. Last year, for instance, ND had already talked to Kelly when they fired Weis. It's not hard to do through third parties. Auburn just went about it very stupidly.
The Pimp Hand is far smoother than anything anyone in SEC-land could pull off. Don't underestimate it.
I found Wojo's article curious- he has always seemed to be the voice of reason. Seeing as Henning is saying the axe is dropping Monday, and they work together, maybe Wojo has heard from similar sources and is setting the table a bit for Brandon to make the move. DB is media savvy and probably has enough of a relationship to feel comfortable trying to steer the ship before making the move.
Harbaugh has a January 1 bowl game of some form to play, and he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to leave his players in a lurch. So I would think this doesn't occur until January, if at all.
In December 2007, RR had a January bowl game to coach, too. That doesn't really matter. If you want the job, you take it.
to me as well. Wojp, unlike many of his "peers' in the sportwriting business, has not often made such a bold statement, the Izzo article nothwithstanding. To say that unless Michigan beats OSU Saturday is saying RRod should be, or will be fired. Makes one wonder if he is working on some real information or simply trying to start a fire.
The best predictor or future performance is past performance. RR has a track record of success that is superior to Harbaugh. Do we suck on defense? Yes. Is that ultimately RR's fault? Yes. But this team was so broken expecting overnight success with a complete change is unrealistic. I don't think 3 years is enough time to judge.
Here is my prediction. If we fire RR he will go on to win a NC elsewhere. If we hire Harbaugh we will continue in the dark ages of Michigan Football as he retools the roster to run his pro-style offense. We get a crapload of transfers, recruiting falls off the cliff.
So if Harbaugh is then 7-5 in his third year do we fire him too? Ok, now who?
Agreed. If Rodriguez is fired, I have no doubt he'll catch on somewhere else. It will probably be somewhere with less pressure more willing to give him time to build his program his way (Minnesota?). His "failure" at Michigan will only make him work harder to put the bitter taste of the last three years behind him. If he does go, I hope its somewhere we don't play his team regularly.
We get a crapload of transfers, recruiting falls off the cliff.
is not a given.
Harbaugh is a respected coach. If I am a player (or a recruit), I have reason to believe that if Jim Harbaugh comes to Michigan he is capable of recruiting and coaching a winning team, AND he will be supported by the fanbase in ways Rich was not.
So the key question in should I transfer or not (and if a year on the bench is worth it), is whether the player thinks Harbaugh can use and showcase him or not. I don't see that as an issue for most the players. The one question mark is Denard, and Andrew Luck runs on occasion ...
The offense will not be as good if RR is fired because of a new system being installed, transfers, etc...., and there is absolutely no way to guarantee rapid improvement of the defense by simply firing a staff.
RR has a track record of success that is superior to Harbaugh.
What is the basis for this statement? It certainly can't be anything that's happened in the past three years. At this point it's worth wondering if his success at WVU was due to a combination of 1) the Big East being extremely weak and 2) having an outstanding DC, who didn't accompany him here.
The basis for the statement that RR has had more success than Harbaugh are the numerous conference titles and bowl game victories that he enjoyed when using a full roster of his own players.
1.) The Big East wasn't as bad of a conference when he coached as it is this year for instance. In fact he won a conference title in a year when Virginia Tech and Miami had not yet left the Big East to play for the ACC. The strength of the Big East was proven in the years he won BCS bowl games. Harbaugh on the other hand couldn't win the Sun Bowl last year with a future NFL first round QB and a heisman trophy running back candidate. His record in his third year at Stanford was 8-5, right about the record that Rodriguez will have if he either beats Ohio State or wins his bowl game.
Bad conference or not, Rich Rod is simply more successful having won 8 conference titles , 4 at Glenville State and 4 at West Virginia. Harbaugh by comparison has won 2 conference titles at San Diego. Harbaugh has coached less games but he also has no proof to back up the claim that he is more successful than Rich Rodriguez. RR beats him in just about anything you can measure success by. More wins, better winning percentage, more bowl victories, more conference titles, more BCS bowl game appearances, etc...
2.) We still don't know if the DC is the reason for West Virginia's success on defense or the fact that West Virginia had time to recruit players and let them grow into juniors and seniors. It's hard to judge a defense who is starting players who wouldn't even be ready to play in the MAC. Harbaugh hasn't had to deal with the types of injuries and player loss on defense that Michigan has suffered. I doubt very highly that Harbaugh and his defensive coordinator would do much better with the personnel that Michigan currently has on defense. Harbaugh's defense was pitiful in his 3rd year at Stanford and he actually hired a new defensive coordinator for year 4. It's not like he would magically come in and solve the defensive problems.
Harbaugh on the other hand couldn't win the Sun Bowl last year with a future NFL first round QB and a heisman trophy running back candidate.
You make it sound like they played Iowa State. They played Oklahoma who had 3 of the first 4 picks in this years draft(-Gresham, he was out all year).
I agree RR has a better track record. And yes their records in year three are the same but Harbaugh has quality wins. It is absolutely OK to say that Harbaugh is a good coach regardless who you want coaching Michigan.
...it's just a matter of where he goes as Stanford always craps out and he knows that the offers on the table this off-season won't be matched in the future. While I'm sure he'd like to coach in the Pros I'm wondering if someone as generally intelligent as Jim will recall the record of successful college coaches (ie Not Good, and it'll be worse once Pete Carroll inevitably flames out in 3 seasons) so I wonder if he will make the jump people expect him to make.
Well, we're headed for retooling on defense no matter what. There is absolutely no chance GERG is back. And that's a relief.
Would RR have time to find a new defensive staff before the bowl game, or would he stick with what he has while the search for new coaches starts? We talk a lot about the golden "15 extra practices" or whatever it is so I'm curious as to how the partial/complete coaching change on defense would work out before January.
Ideally, it would happen before the bowl, but that might be tough, with so many coordinators in bowl prep. It will probably end up being in January after the bowl. GERG will nominally be given one more chance to show what he can do, but I can't imagine he could be brought back at this point.
of the half that thinking keeping Rich Rod is the way to go, a good portion (like Brian and me) would understand if he was let go.
...if you look at recent history, coaching changes in College programs where *anything* talent wise is left usually leads to 2-3 additional wins in the new coaches first season (hell, that even happened with John L. Smith and the Spartans). Not sure why that is, it just tends to happen in programs with any talent.
This guy says, it all rides on this one game, one that no one expects us to win. Either win, or be gone! Never mind that we are going in the right direction and set up with the maturing underclassmen to return bigger, stronger and more experienced for the next 2-3 years, that our recruiting class is shaping up nicely, despite the negatives. Never mind that our best shot at being good before 2013 is to keep RR and let him do what he knows how to do.
Not to say that it is impossible that we pull it off, and we are likely to put up some points, but how will we suddenly become good in 3 more days? Their players right now are better than ours, but not because we have bad coaches. We just lack talent, size and experience, all things that are about to improve. We are still how we are, with our weaknesses and areas of need, today, win or lose on Saturday.
So fuck WoJo, who I used to like reading until now. He's a moron.
I don't think he said a win was necessary, just not a blowout loss.
Oh but the defense is really headed in the right direction. There's absolutely no indication that it is.
that Lynn Henning has figured out Wojo's computer password (boobs), and wrote an article. Seems there may be some loss of operational control at the Detroit News. It will be announced Monday that Jonathan Wolman, editor and publisher, will be fired.
Harbaugh is 27-21 as a head coach at Stanford, in his FOURTH year, where he's currently 10-1? Wouldn't that make his record before the season something like...I dunno, 17-20? After THREE seasons? Why, yes, yes it would!
Wait a second, what is RichRod's record? 15-20, in his THIRD SEASON! Now that is UNACCEPTABLE! He needs to go, NOW! Need MOAR defense! Harbaugh didn't need time to make Stanford a powerhouse!
I hope the snarkiness and sarcasm dripping from this post is apparent. Now let's beat those fucking Buckeyes!
If RR had two wins over OSU in his first three years, as Harbaugh did over SC, he'd likely be safe. His biggest problem isn't just the record (though that is a big problem), but the fact that he has basically no wins over good teams. He has yet another "biggest game of his career" on Saturday. He's got to finally win one of these.
Actually his biggest problem is that as time has worn on, we are getting beat worse by those good teams. Plus, in his defense, he is chasing the ghosts of teams past who basically owned all these so called "Big Ten Powers".
The expectations might just be too much for what he is capable of doing and Brandon knows that. Hard to say.
If Pryor throws four INT the way USC's QB did against Stanford the first time Jim beat Pete then I think we'll win on Saturday.
As bare as anyone can argue the cupboard was when Llyod left, Stanford's program was in horrific shambles after Walt Harris. So not necessarily a fair comparison.
Stanford was 1-11 the year before Harbaugh was hired. Michigan was 9-4 the year before RR was hired.
Stanford had not been to a bowl game for the preceding 5 years before Harbaugh was hired. UM had been to 30 odd straight bowls before RR was hired.
Seriously, how can anyone argue that these situations were remotely similar? Mind boggling.
It's called slanted stat picking
Harbaugh had 2 losing seasons his first two years at Stanford, then went 8-5. RR had 2 losing seasons before (likely) going 7-5. So yeah, I don't see how people expect instant-success if we bring in Harbaugh.
And if Harbaugh does come here, and wins right away, won't he be doing so with RichRod's players? Zing! If Harbaugh wins right away but struggles later we'll be seeing that line on the message boards.
Yeah Stanford wasn't a powerhouse when Harbaugh took over but UM isn't a powerhouse now either. So if it took Harbaugh 3 seasons to win at Stanford can I claim it'll take him 3 to win here?
Basically what I'm saying is that I don't see why they think Harbaugh will be a savior.
soo to you.. winning at Michigan and winning at Stanford is the exact same thing and takes the exact same time to do. I'm tired of all the excuses everyone keeps making likes it's sooo hard to win at Michigan. Taking over this young team is not the same as taking over the Stanford team that was 1-11 before Harbaugh got there.
The big difference between Harbaugh's 1st few years and RR's is quality wins. RR has in 3 years yet to bear OSU, MSU, PSU, or Iowa. 1-2 against Wisconsin with 2 blowout losses and the 1 victory coming in the 2008 combac win.
Harbaugh got a win as a 41 point underdog to the #1 2007 USC team..and he SMACKED USC again last year 55-21 on his way to that 8-5 record and finished #21 in both polls
If thats not enough of a difference for you here are some more
1. He is a Michigan grad
2. He is the hottest coaching name out there ..If he doesn't come here, he will be coaching an NFL team soon. He is as guru approved as a coach can be.
3 He hates OSU (Nobody will question if he understands the rivaly)
4. He is a great recruiter (think his current class is higher rated then M's)
5. He is arrogant and a prick.(exactly what is needed to handle the media around here these days
6. He runs a pro style system .. how many quality recruits who should have come to UofM have we lost out n because of the spread and 3-3-5?
I was a huge RR supporter for as long as I could be. Enough is enough..it's just not worth it anymore. If just for the sake of the fans to stop bickering we need a change. The last 3 years have been the worst 3 defences and special teams years in Michigan history. The O has tons of potential obviously...but it can't make up for the mistakes he has made with the D. There is not 1 shred of proof that the D will be better next year. If you look at the trend it is more likely to be even worse then it is to be better. It has gotten worse every year since RR has arrived. Honestly it's just my opinion and im sure ill get negged for it, but getting Harbaugh is a once in a lifetime oppertunity. This is the man who guaranteed victory over OSU and delivered. He would restore our coaching link to Bo. I know hes a dick and that's fine. I don't want to be his friend, I want him to win games here. I want everyone in the B10 to hate our coach like I hate Dantonio and Tressel. I want a Michigan man to coach Michigan. Rant over, neg away.
What that guy said.
but what is it with people wanting to "restore the coaching link to Bo"? That brand of football was the direct cause of the Horror, and the disaster known as Oregon 2007, with a senior laden team no less. Personally, I think that style will take us right back to where we were pre-Rodriguez. Every seven or eight years we will compete for a BCS championship and mostly go 10-3 or 9-4 in other years. Sign me up! Remember our history:
2004 - 9-3, bowled over by Troy Smith and Vince Young
2005 - 7-5, lost to OSU and the bowl game
2006 - 11-2, great year until OSU and USC
2007 - 9-4, Horror, Oregon, OSU, and that great game against Florida
That's right Lloyd lost four in a row to OSU and 6 of his final 7.
So let's restore the coaching link to Bo and go back to playing pre-historic football, and getting waxed by the Oregon's and the Texas' of the world.
Bo wasn't a Michigan man to begin with, he had to earn it. Who says Rodriguez couldn't do the same, you want him out before his prodigy even becomes and upperclassmen.
Could not agree more! Why do we want to go back to the stone age? Wojo is an ass. What a dumbass thing to write. Ohio State is a perfect example of why we should want to keep RR. Winning the Big Ten and getting smoked in your BCS game sucks. RR can take us to national championship level if we just have some patience. If he is allowed to come back next year, this thing is gonna take off and no one with any sense will call for his head again. Have some faith! GO BLUE!
How easy it is to pick on Carr's last 4 years as if that represents what Michigan football had been for the past 40 years. He stayed on a year or 2 too long. I heard he wanted to retire after 04'. I don't want to say the game passed him by..but he gave 3 decades of his life to Michigan football..eventually everyone wears down. That brand of football did not cause the horror and the Oregon debacle...poor defence did. How easily you forget all the B10 titles and the MNC Carr had. How easily you blow off all of the great things that "stone-age brand" did for our program. That brand of football is what made Michigan football the respected program that it is. What has this brand of football added besides embarassment ? You dont get to talk down about 10-2 when your trying to talk up 7-5.
Lastly if I am understanding you correctly, because Harbaugh has a connection to Bo that makes his system pre-hstoric? You do realise how stupid that statement is don't you? Have you looked at where Stanford's stone age offense ranks ? #8 in scoring #15 in yards ..yes their prehistroric O is better then ours..i wont even go over how the D's compare.
"Every seven or eight years we will compete for a BCS championship and mostly go 10-3 or 9-4 in other years. Sign me up!"
And waxed vs. Texas? Did you even watch the game? Way to make shit up.
I agree with everything you said, especially #5. I don't think that can be understated enough, and I think that has really hurt the perception of RR.
This is exactly what OSU fans, and other Big Ten fans are afraid of. We ditch Rodriguez and bring in a guy who gets it. And I don't just mean the OSU rivalry, also gets defense, and how to win big games (keep in mind Rich lost to Pitt in a big game that dropped him out of NC contention).
Were pretty good last year, and with the exception of our return game (Gallon) they're not exactly bad this year. The defense, yeah...
1. We're not going to beat the effing Buckeyes.
2. Chris Spielman is quoted as saying that Mike Martin is the only UM defensive player who could start at OSU. Spielman is right. And that's after two complete RR recruiting classes? That is just unacceptable.
There has to be accountability.
Wojo is right.
Spielman's quote is getting a lot of traction around here.
OSU starts 7 seniors, two juniors, and two sophomores on defense. Is it really UNACCEPTABLE that the sophomores and freshman that Rodriguez has recruited wouldn't be able to beat out fourth and fifth year players?
And, this just in, Ohio State has a really good defense. You could probably look at 7 or 8 of the Big Ten starting defenses and not find more than one or two guys on any of them that would start at Ohio State.
But... how many true sophmores, redshirt freshmen or true freshmen start on Ohio State's defense? That's how old all of RR's recruits are so it seems like a pertinent question.
(The answer is one, but unacceptable.)
I saw that also in Wojo's article. He should be willing to judge RR on the same basis he is Harbaugh. It makes me wonder what has transpired off the record to see the sudden change in Wojo's attitude towards RR.
Harbaugh took over a 1-11 Stanford team. RR took over a 9-4 Michigan team that was 6-2 in the conference and beat Florida in the Capital One bowl. In Harbaugh's third season he was 8-5 with wins over USC, Oregon and UCLA. RR in his third year has wins over Western Michigan, Notre Dame, Eastern Michigan, Indiana and Delaware State. In Harbaugh forth year he is 10-1. RR 7-4 and is 1-12 vs. Michigan State, Ohio State, Iowa, Penn State and Wisconsin. I guess your right RR is a great coach and has Michigan football on the right track. I'm sure he will turn this around NEXT year, right.. Hopefully DB is smart enough to fire this jackass monday..
Whoever posts posts full of fail is full of fail. You posted this post. Therefore, you are full of fail. Like, full all the way to the top.
RR didn't take over the 9-4 team that beat Florida. He took over the remnants of a 9-4 team after Henne, Hart and Co. went to the NFL. The 2008 team would have struggled w/ Lloyd as coach. Probably not 3-9, but would have struggled. 2009 was RR's second year, not third. This current year, in which UM is 7-4 is his third year, so getting to the Harbaugh approved 8-5 mark is still realistic.
..Harbaugh was going into a 1-10 program that was widely proceived as having nothing (for all the talk about Gerhart already being there, I just checked his recruiting profile and he was a 3-star recruit that received offers from nobody major all, so nobody really expected much of him).
People want to get rid of Rich Rod? I wish they would have spoken up before this.
Wojo's argument is more convincing than most I've read from those advocating for a change. Still, I'm wary of another drawn out debacle of a coaching search like we saw under Martin (although Brandon seems less likely to make this mistake.) Back then, people assumed that Miles would jump at the chance to coach in Ann Arbor. How is the assumption about Harbaugh wanting to return any different?
If Brandon gets assurances from his targeted HC replacement, that's great; make a switch if it seems like the right time to do so. Otherwise, start from scratch with the defensive coaching staff and give RR a one year audition for an extension.
Miles would have jumped at the chance to coach us, but we never offered the job to him.
(cue the Gilligan's Island theme song)
Well, personally, I'm happy if our coach is either Rodriguez or Harbaugh. I admit I had my doubts about Harbaugh before this season but after Stanford's success this year and especially after watching them absolutely destroy Cal last week, he's convinced me. I think we will win with either one.
But really, I will be very, very surprised if Rodriguez is fired, regardless of what happens Saturday.
Ohio State and end all this bullshit!
I'll give Wojo this...he can write a provocative article without being an asshole....others should watch and learn
I think everyone is missing something here. Wojo simply said he must go if we get blown out. I thought this was the case before the Wisconsin game. There is a difference between losing these last two games and getting back to back wake up calls that we have fallen so far from the top of the Big Ten. Getting blown out these last two weeks was going to put his job at risk. It is not a barometer of wins like Brandon said. Back to back blowouts to end the season make for a very tough to swallow December.
Keep the game competitive or beat the buckeyes!
Right. I think Brandon has to consider if he feels that next year the team would have a great chance to win every single game next year. Not that they'd be undefeated, but that there wouldn't be any obvious expected losses. Before these 3 years, there were only a handful of games in which a victory seemed close to impossible ('91 FSU, maybe the PSU game when they were undefeated with K Collins). Times have changed, but in year 4, we should be competitive in each game.
I thought the offseason message board was obnoxious, but this is getting ridiculous. According to my (amateur) calculations, we are on options 7 and 8 at cornerback. 1. Warren should still be here 2. Woolfolk 3. Turner was a 5 star who knew he was a puss? 4. Dorsey another 5 star, eff admissions 5. Cissoko 6. Floyd 7. Rogers 8. Whichever freshman. Show me the team with 8 good cornerbacks, starting in the Big 10 cornerbacks. I'm not saying the coaches are blameless, but let's be real, Buddy Fucking Ryan couldn't do any better. There is no instant cure for lack of depth or youth. Time and patience are the only solutions.
Yes, our secondary is young and we've been hit hard by injuries.
But it wasn't our secondary that was getting its asses whooped up and down the field when Wisconsin was running the ball 30 consecutive times to close out the game.
I'm not going to pretend that Terry and Mike's show on 97.1 isn't slanted against Michigan....but on Monday Matt Derry shouted "360 yards rushing!"
It is so sobering.
Regardless of who to blame or what should be done, it is just damn fustrating!
Ok, where are all of Lloyd's great defensive line recruits when we need them? I'd venture to say DL (as well as OL) take time to develop. Did RR do a great job recruiting the DL in year 1 and 2? No, but year one was already mostly done when he got here. So where are the 4th and 5th year players from those great Michigan teams from the past? Greg Banks? Adam Patterson? Renaldo Sagesse?
So you have two of you better DL players hurt and out and you expect to stop Wisconsin with Banks, Patterson and Sagesse? Blame RR for recruiting but don't expect him to beat Wisconsin with Banks, Patterson and Sagesse and a true Freshman at DL.
THEY ARE THE NO. 6 TEAM IN THE COUNTRY! Of course they are going to be able to run on us.
If his coaching staff had recruited defensive players who could academically qualify, maybe our defense would be deeper and more talented.
They chose the defensive / offensive balance in recruiting. They also chose who they recruited and whether they were an academic risk.
1. Warren should still be here 2. Woolfolk 3. Turner was a 5 star who knew he was a puss? 4. Dorsey another 5 star, eff admissions 5. Cissoko 6. Floyd 7. Rogers 8. Whichever freshman.
So we should give our staff a pass when it shows questionable judgment in recruiting and continually experiences massive player attrition?
However it was them that got abused in the first half that allowed Wiscy the luxury of doing what they do best in the 2nd half.
..unless Michigan shows far more than they've shown against other ranked opponents in the Ohio State game. We've been embarassed in 2 of the 3 games we've lost to ranked teams (only the Iowa game was remotely competitive). A third embarassment will send RR packing (note the almost *cold* tone in Brandon's words concerning Rich Rod in the Detroit News article yesterday especially compared to some surprisingly warm words for John Beilein).
I don't think he is necessarily saying that if Rodriguez doesn't win this one he should be fired, and I don't think he is saying that he should be kept if we do win. What he is saying is Jim Harbaugh is a great candidate, and this hasn't worked as evidenced by tangible results that most average fans care about.
He is likely trying to get out front of something that looks increasingly likely to happen. If you read his recent articles, this is a definite departure from his more moderate tone. Take the Henning interview with Brandon where Rodriguez was not mentioned by name at any point by Brandon, but Beilein was giving a vote of long-term confidence, anonymous athletic department connected rumors here and there, Stanford about to hit their pre-bowl break, and it can be at least conjectured there may be something about to happen.
I think we all appreciate the numbers and what they say about the improvement from year 1 of the Rich Rodriguez program. People on here are highly knowledgeable and make good points about continuity and the potential of this offense. They may even be right that it would be a big mistake to let him go.
The key word though is "may". Michigan Football and the money and power it represents doesn't abide by hope in most cases. It looks at results and decides based on them.
This might be one of those debates where it could be wise to get our noses out of the stat sheets and the recruiting blogs and look around at what's in the wind. Don't try to outthink the room. If were losing like this to teams we have to beat, and the average fan (most fans) is jumping ship and there is a top flight candidate who may be available and willing, then there isn't a lot of point wishing it weren't so.
Harbaugh has 4 years of big time college coaching experience. Is his body of work better than RR's? No. Is he hot right now? Yes. I hear Schiano was Edsal were once hot as well. Want them now?
RR will be our Nick Saban in that he will leave and we will pine for him when he wins elsewhere.
...he built Toby Gerhart (a guy recruited by teams like Nevada & Duke) into a high level draft pick. He can recruit in a program that is very difficult to recruit for, and his pedigree and background mean he'll be able to recruit better than Rich Rod has (RR's recruiting is overly maligned, but there has been some surprising decisions, particularly with the Defensive recruiting, even if I feel that Speilman's talent comment was out to lunch).
Rich Rod came into a program with a surprisingly decent amount of talent (the bare cupboard, save with the defensive secondary, is pretty much garbage) and crapped the bed *hard*. He's Michigan's John L. Smith, only without the 8 win opening year.
It's entirely possible that you never see Rich Rodriquez as a head coach again after this debacle.
If it's generally accepted that Harbaugh has interest in the NFL (and vice versa) does it make sense to bring him here? Perhaps he could turn the program around but how long would he stay? I personally don't want someone who might want to test himself in the most competitive venue in his field. We have always had college coaches who wanted to be college coaches and that has been one of our strengths.
I personally think it's a foregone conclusion that rr will be back next year. If we're having this same discussion twelve months from now, the it will be time to pull the plug. I would wager that Brandon has already had back channel conversations with other coaches re: our problem and possible solutions. He (like Rich Rod) didn't get to be where he is by being either stupid or lucky.
It is worth repeating that most of us were looking at 7-5 or 8-4 before the injuries. I still believe that a competent defensive staff can produce an acceptable defense with this group of players next year and give us a 9-3 season.
...will be Tennessee'd (i.e. near permantently dead, Tennessee was reducing to hiring a guy who's main qualification was that he was Vince Dooley's son and a *very* junior position coach to Nick Saban because *nobody* wanted the job as the program had degraded that much).
I mean right now, we are down to Jim Habaugh because no one else with a portfolio wants the job because of the damage Rodriquez has done. By next season? No one with a portfolio will be available and we'll be reduced to hiring screwballs like Tennessee is.
While I understand the sentiment behind WoJo's case and I somewhat agree, UM fans need to realize that this team isn't anywhere close to OSU or Wiscy, so I'm not sure handing down a mandate that "this game has to be close" is really fair. Against good teams, the defense tends to struggle to get off the field while the offense usually fails to score early on. Those are the realities of this team - 7-4, good-but-not-great offense and an historically bad defense. Broken record, I know. But losing to Wiscy and OSU, one on the road, is what happens to mediocre teams like UM. It hurts for the faithful to admit it because that wasn't the case even a couple of years ago, but since 2007 this team has been a largely mediocre program, and while I have seen legitimate strides the past 1.5 years, it is going to take more than a season to get back to the level of a senior-laden Wiscy or consistent top-5 OSU team. That's just the facts, and while it should be factor, I hope Brandon does not try to hold RR against those impossible standards right now. I'm not saying he should be absolved for the past 3 years, but wanting him to "keep it close" is purely cosmetic, like how mediocre teams used to "keep it close" against UM even though UM usually won.
UM fans need to realize that this team isn't anywhere close to OSU or Wiscy, so I'm not sure handing down a mandate that "this game has to be close" is really fair.
When it's year 3 of a coach's tenure, it's fair. In December 2007, everyone expected us to be in the top 10 right now.
Does he get marginally more respect in this corner of the blogosphere by mere default, since virtually everyone who is associated with the other metro newspaper goes beyond annoying, into the realm of "malignant"?
This is not a good day for the Detroit News and its sports columnists. Not one day following Lynn Henning's embarassing rumor-implosion.
Key quote: "Harbaugh is 10-1 in his fourth year". At 8-5 or 9-4, which is what our record will be, Rich Rod deserves one more year.
...the odds of winning are the same (unless a *really* marginal bowl team ends up in the Insight Bowl) and at least the proceeds go partly towards education.
that usually Wojo is commonly referred to as "the one who brings sanity" and usually gets the "as usual, Wojo adds solid perspective" comments from this blog, but as soon as he writes something that is deemed disagreeable, he is worthless and doesn't know what he's talking about.
Come on people. Don't slam the guy for a reasonable opinion. You don't have to agree with him. His point is solid. if Michigan gets killed, Rich will be 15-21 with two blowout losses, and Brandon has continually said he will use all aspects of the program, not just wins and losses to determine the next direction. Those facts (and yes, they are facts) make it seem very reasonable that Rich could get fired.
Obviously, anyone may disagree and have solid facts to support your opinions too, but don't hammer a guy for making a reasonable argument just because you have a different perspective or desire.
The article assumes that Harbaugh, "must surely be interested..." Oh, really? Says whom? Harbaugh hasn't said so. Dave Brandon hasn't said so.
Harbaugh is not stupid. He can probably see the level of talent on the defense and say, "Uh, no thanks." He will realize that the players recruited to play in RR's style of spread offense don't fit his system.
And, Wojo thinks Harbaugh will find that enticing? Who in their right mind would?
If DB fires RR, and Harbaugh turns down the offer, then what? We're back to where we were three years ago, and probably even worse off.
Finally, just because a guy played here, played for Bo, is a successful coach in his own right, is a hot commodity in the coaching ranks, etc., does not mean he will be successful at his alma mater. Just ask Notre Dame and Charlie Weis how it worked out for them.
A) Just playing devil's advocate here........ You say that Harbaugh would look at the defense and say "no thanks". So what you're saying is that Rich Rod has taken the program to a level that would cause an alum that has publically professed his love for the University to "say no thanks"? Isn't that alarming? Don't you think taking the winningest program in football history (regardless of circumstances) to the point where you say "who in their right mind would" is a fireable offense?
Also you assume that Harbaugh would be as stubborn as Rich and would transform the O immediately. I only have opinion to back this up, but I would think Harbaugh would look at the boatloads of talent returning and tailor his offense to fit it. Rich was just stubborn and it blew up in years one and two.
B) Despite my playing of devil's advocate above, I tend to agree with your point that if Harbaugh isn't the guy, then we might as well hold pat and pray that Rich can get it together.
Nothing I wrote suggested that I think RichRod is not responsible for what has happened to the program. The problem is, what alternative do we really have at this point?
I am reminded of a quote from Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War. A Senator from Ohio, (appropriately) Benjamin Wade, berated Lincoln for McClellan's strategy, which the senator thought was ineffective, and would not lead to victory. He demanded McClellan remove him.
One day, Wade went to Lincoln and demanded that Lincoln find someone else. Lincoln asked whom he should appoint as Commanding General. Wade replied, "Well, anybody."
Lincoln responded, "Wade, anybody will do for you, but not for me. I must have somebody."
And thank you for the enjoyable banter that sometimes turns negative on this board.
I am crazy enough to search through the colleg football database of coaches and I examined every coach and coordinator in the country. My parameters were to not include Harbaugh because he is obvious, but I wanted to see what else was out there. I came up with 10 names, and although it was based on my somewhat limited knowledge and my own speculation, the list was rediculously underwhelming. In fact, there wasn't really a head coach out there that I though Michigan had a chance to land. Sure, there were some longshots (Peterson, Patterson, Wittingham) but I really don't think we could land them.
To me the state of the program is unacceptable, but if Harbaugh isn't the man, I do think Rich is the best legitimate and viable option.
Reading a post on RCMB, Eleven Warriors, etc. that quotes Abraham Lincoln? No, I can't either.
...Speilman's comments nonwithstanding (Speilman basically argued his way into playing time as a Freshman at OSU if memory serves, so maybe he doesn't realize players need time to develop).
As most of the players coming up as next year's sophmores and Juniors had offers by big-time programs and those don't go to scrubs (come on, the odds of Michigan being the committment of choice for every miss is less likely than the alternative). The problem is that most of Rodriquez's defensive assistants have done a *horrible* job of developing talent (with the exception of Bruce Tall as I believe William Campbell is a work ethic issue).
If someone would both to develop them you should see some good things out of people like Craig Roh, Kenney Demens, Jibreel Black, Cullen Christian, Courtney Avery, Marvin Robinson, and Josh Furman (that goes without mentioning returning players who've already done decent to excellent like Mike Martin and Ryan Van Bergen). If you get a D-staff that can *develop* players you'll see a defense step up a decent amount next season (I'd say to around 60th).
that I could unsubscribe over Henning. Now I remember why I don't read the papers in the first place.
I did think about that -- the significance of Brandon sitting down with Lynn Henning. Henning is a former/sometime golf writer, and I expect that he and Brandon may be familiar with one another through golfing circles.
And oh yes. Just like the Athleitc Department pointedly leaked the good news story from the NCAA to Larry Lage of the AP to trump the Freep, I see this as throwing a bone to the News during OSU week.
Fine way for Lynn Henning to repay Brandon; later popping off about an imaginary firing of RR that "wasn't based on any information."
This (with the Henning interview) is, with 80% or more confidence, DB telling the fanbase what very well may transpire.
I was thinking the same. There's an interesting amount of compartmentalization going on with some posters here; they maintain faith in Brandon while attacking Wojo for (quite possibly) serving as Brandon's mouthpiece.
Ohio State "whipped" Michigan last year 21-10?
They did get whipped, just like the 28-14 Rose Bowl.
" if Rodriguez loses, he'd have dropped pretty much every contest against a tough opponent. He's 15-20 overall, 6-17 in the Big Ten, winless against rivals Michigan State and Ohio State, 2-1 against Notre Dame."
Yeah, Michigan has beaten basically zero good teams in 3 seasons. I'm on the fence about another season.
I'm not sure your definition of "whipped", but look at last year's box score:
- OSU had 318 yards; UM had 309 yards
- The score was 14-10 in the 3rd quarter
- When down 21-10 in the 4th, Michigan drove the ball to OSU 6 yard line, where Tate threw his 4th INT of the game (which ultimately was the story of the game - two teams playing equal, except for the HUGE difference that our freshman QB made silly turnovers).
I'm not saying last year's game was a nail-biter, but any game in which both teams essentially have the same yardage and there never is a gap of more than 11 points is not a whipping/blowout/whatever.
Wins against ranked teams: 1
Oh, and he's playing in the pac10, which has none of the depth of the Big 10.
So, by that reasoning Harbaugh had to beat Oklahoma his third year to keep his job, right? Gawd. This argument is moronic. Wojo is moving the goalposts like the other haters because they want to get Harbaugh before he goes to the NFL, and they want him for no real rational reason other than they think he "guaranteed a win" thirty years ago.
Harbaugh beat USC in 07 and 09 on the road. Oregon in 09. That's three wins v. ranked teams right there. He equaled Rich's 2 year league win total in one season while taking over a 1 win program. He had 6 league wins in two years. It has taken Rich three years to accumulate that many.
The top teams in the Pac 10 are Arizona, USC, Oregon, Oregon State, Cal. He beat those teams 7 times in three years. Against the league's top teams under Rich, we have 1 win against Wisconsin with progressively widening margins of defeat.
I am all for keeping Rich on if you can't get Harbaugh. I would say not to kid yourself thinking that Harbaugh couldn't do the job, or people who want him don't know what kind of coach he is.
So, you would like to fire a coach (assuming we lose Saturday) who had two straight losing seasons and then went 7-5 for a coach who had two straight losing seasons and then went 8-5.
Cherry-picking data is fun. Let's ignore the context in which these records were amassed.
Our coach has the chance in year 3 to do something Harbaugh did in year 1 with a far worse team: beat the marquee program in the conference. It's time to win a big game.
It's not cherry picking. It's his and RichRod's entire record - that's by definition not cherry picking. I'm glad Harbaugh was able to upset USC in 2007. He also lost that year to a 5-7 Washington State team, a 4-9 Washington team, a 3-9 ND team, and a 6-7 UCLA team.
Michigan football is not essentially based on winning one or two games a year. It's based on being good overall (which, if you are good overall, you will be definition win some/most rivalry games). If you want to fire RichRod b/c he'll go 7-5 this season AND don't think there will be real improvement (i.e., 9 wins or more) next year, OK. But after all we've been through, this one game (or Harbaugh's one game at USC in 2007) should not be the determining factor.
this article is shit and most articles from the detroit newspapers are shit. They have been out since day one to get this guy fired. Whats gonna change now? The media has an agenda. The media is scum. Everything you read these days is half the truth...one sided...you call that journalism? its bullshit and you get paid for it, Merry Christmas.
Basing a coaches job on the outcome of 1 game is fucking idiotic.
what is idiotic is reading that article and thinking Wojo is basing it on the outcome of one game.
He clearly lays out all the struggles and records, etc that we all know about and says a blowout loss to OSU will be the final straw. Its not about one game, it is about the whole package. And all Wojo is saying is an embarrassing performance would just add to the fire.
He's saying an embarassing performance would be cause to demolish the building.
I just find it convenient to post that another blowout loss would be unacceptable after Martin, Mouton, Floyd, Woolfolk, Jones, Herron, etc are either hobbled or unavailable. Why not point that out at the beginning of the season?
At any rate, despite the struggles, they have still improved every year and look to continue to improve next year. And if you're going to "lay out the struggles" then make sure you take an objective look at what contributed to them.
I''m not certain he did that. Hell, I'm not sure he even knows.
Regardless, still heh @ suggesting Harbaugh would be a viable replacement what with his eerily similar record over the same amount of time in an inferior conference. That article most certainly did not convince me.
You make very valid points. But, to Wojo's credit, he also says that he feels Rich could win elsewhere.
I'll be honest, I don't care ( to quote Mike Valenti.... i know, i know...boooo!) if HR Pufnstuf with Teddy Ruxpin as an assistant is coach.... I just want to get back to being confident UM will be competitive in all games, even against the elite.
But is it a stretch to say that maybe Rich just doesn't fit here? Clearly he has a faction against him within the "family" (not talking about angry fans) and regardless of progress, that faction will likely never be happy. Right or wrong, that seems to be the case.
Don't forget that DB has done a lot of house cleaning since his arrival. He has broomed some of those in the "family" who have purposely hurt the program. Too bad that had to be done, but without those people sabotaging the program and dividing the holdover players and the fan base, I think RichRod would have been much more successful, sooner.
I'm sick of hearing about whether RR "fits" at Michigan. The only problem with his "fit" is the unwillingness of people to accept him as the head coach, and that is not his doing. I personally believe that he is the right guy for the job, but he has had to drag half of the fanbase kicking and screaming into the 21st century of college football. Yes, the defense and special teams are of concern and have not developed as well as the offense (an understatment, I know), but I'd bet my salary that he is more concerned than anyone in the fanbase about those two facets of the program because it's his ass on the line.
I disagree with Wojo. Unless a new head coach walks into a situation where he runs the same or similar offense and defense as his predecessor and has enough good players from the get-go (Lloyd Carr, anyone?), I think he has to be given four years to prove himself. RR is not responsible that players left after Carr retired. He didn't walk into a situation where, even if he ran the same playbook as Lloyd, success would have been a given in his first year. He deserves another year, particularly with the unity that he has fostered among his players. When Denard Robinson says to a group of reporters that his defense is the best in the country, that's not bravado or ignorance or even naivete' talking. That's etched-in-stone belief in his teammates, the intangibles that DB talks about.
Do you have some inside knowledge that no one in the media, no one on this blog, or anyone who actually talks with people that can show people who have been let go were actively conspiring to screw things up to stick it to Rich Rod? Things were screwed up, and some people paid for it with their jobs, but this conspiracy stuff is a joke. Because the only one who's screwed up in multiple ways that is still working for the program is Rich. I don't think people were looking to get themselves canned just because they didn't love the new coach.
But to write it before - pure agenda driven. The question is who is controlling the agenda? But apparently they got to Henning and Wojo.
F them. GO BLUE!
Have you ever thought that maybe it is Dave Brandon or someone close to him that is feeding the Detroit News the stories? Not someone with an anti-Michigan or anti-Rodriguez agenda.
The paranoia is ridiculous. What "agenda" could these guys possibly have? They have no connection to Michigan, aside from sometimes writing about it. All these accusations about The Media are ridiculous. It's what certain idiot ex-president did whenever he didn't like something. He blamed the media. As if the media acts as some monolothic creature with a single goal.
every sports writer in America has/will pen an article speculating on the future of all "hot seat coaches" in every sport towards the end of that sport's season.
As the lead sport commentator of a major paper, he is obligated to address that question.
1 - RR should canned at once no matter what
2 - RR should go if (proviso)
3 - I don't know (no sport columnist will ever admit this)
4 - RR should get an extension if (proviso)
5 - RR should immediately get a 7 year extension (Notre Dame option)
Most columnists don't want to look stupid, so 1,3,5 are out. So they go for the proviso options, in this case he is choosing the outcome of the OSU game as the crux.
In other words, a clevely-programmed word processor could have spit out what Mr. Wojnowski did. There was no news, no new information, no original reporting. No considered wisdom from a guy who (very much unlike Wojnowski) might actually have been a famous or respected player or coach. Just a re-hash of all of the accepted "wisdom" of the mouth-breathers who get their information from 97.1 fm.
he picked the Ohio State game as the qualifier.
If that were the case, Lloyd should have been canned in 2006.
Because Carr's 2004-06 record paralleled Rodriguez's?
You need to read better
You have no way of knowing this. None. Wojo has always been a reliable, even-handed reporter. Once he says something you don't like, however, he's suddenly an unreliable scumbag. You don't know what confidential information he may have. He is, after all, an experienced reporter of some repute. Why don't you wait and see what happens before deeming him inaccurate. Isn't that kind of, um, the American Way.
I'm sorry. Stop the grand assumptions and pronouncements about the Evil Media hellbent on destroying Michigan. Maybe one or two local reporters hate Richrod. But most really don't have a horse in the race. They do often have access to information that the public doesn't know.
Wojo. He's always been fairly popular among posters here. But now, having posted his opinion, he becomes The Enemy. Yes: opinion. He isn't reporting a scoop that RR will be fired, post-loss. He's saying he ought to be fired. Do you not see the distinction? Do you not appreciate that his opinion, though not shared by you, is an informed one? Has it not occurred to you that, by broad-brushing, you're doing exactly that which you claim to oppose?
And maybe Wojo included a "proviso" because that's the correct scenario? Nobody would can RR after an upset of OSU. All Wojo is saying is that a blow-out would be the last straw. In his opinion. Which may well ring true.
If RR leaves for whatever reason, you know he'll go on to be successful somewhere else. Then all of the writers who are saying he should go will be saying that UM missed out. I hate this world.
I have pointed to Wojo several times as one who brought reason and rational to evaluating the Michigan program and RR. But it seems that he has a sudden change of heart, probably because of what DB has said off the record. I am not sure how firing RR will improve our chances of winning next year or over the next 3 years. Harbaugh had a similiar record to RR over his first 3 years at Stanford. Assuming the same progression, we are still 4 years away from an elite program. Add that to RR 3 years, that will mean 7 years of rebuilding. Or almost a lost decade. I say have patience, and let's see how RR does next year before committing to a lost decade of Michigan football.
I think that one thing that RR has truly failed at doing is providing a sense of true confidence in the team. By that I mean he constantly walks to the podium with an almost set answer group....we are young, have to watch the film to evaluate, injuries.
I dont think he was given the best set of circumstances to walk into....but at some point, you need to look at the focus on the areas of concern, particularly the defense. After letting Schafer go, he just did not give the appearance that he was all that concerned with finding a defense. To Spielman's article the other day which upset so many people.....he failed to find an identity on defense, and IMO failed to bring in that young, exciting person to run the D and excite the D recruits to come to Michigan.
Carr didnt like to recruit....bottom line.....GERG does not like to recruit from many posts I have seen (I hear more from D recruits about Barwis than what they were excited about with GERG and that is alarming).....hate to say it, but that is the lifeblood of building one of these programs, especially when you are trying to get kids in AA from the south.
At a minimum, we need to find someone to run the D....if another blowout with OSU happens, the ONLY way I keep RR if I am Brandon is to have a meeting with him first thing Sunday morning, give him the option for wholesale changes on the defensive side with his input in the search and changes, hire a coach JUST FOR SPECIAL TEAMS that knows how to coach kickers, and give him 24hrs to agree to make those changes.
I think the argument that we are young does hold merit, but I think that back to Speilman's contention unfortunately.....we also have been reeling to bring in kids who may be great contributors as juniors and seniors....nothing wrong with that.....unless you know you need to have production sooner rather than later.....making the wrong hire with GERG and having it drag out after the first season almost to signing day was a BIG reason IMO that we lost out on alot of the more college ready players....what were we going to run, who was going to run it, etc etc etc. Bringing in the coach Syracuse had just run off...from a school none of the players would have considered in the first place = failure.
I like RR, I have said all along he needs time....but at some point you need to decide if he is truly All In....and has what it takes to either take the responsibility for the D himself, or make use of the resources for a school like Michigan to reach out and find the person who can.
If he is not willing to.....I think you may just see a Hello Harbaugh post in the very near future. Brandon cannot let the flagship of his brand continue on without direction.
People are to the point they're just making stuff up now, aren't they. Check with any of the recruiting analysts - Carr and his staff were considered one of the top recruiting staffs in the country. They had to being one of the few top programs that can't get most of their talent in their own backyard. Did it slide a bit towards the end? Sure, as it does with any coach approaching retirement. But from the classes we've been bringing in, and the rankings of the current class, it's obvious not as universally positive with Rich. Does he "not like to recruit"? Of course not. It's just more bullshit.
Wow, I see more thoughtful, informed opinion writing than that article on these message boards every single day. People pay that guy?
I always knew it was your fault.
If we get totally humiliated? Like Wiscy-Indiana beat down? I'm not saying I'd be for it, but I could understand it.
I don't think we will be though. We're gonna fucking win.
I'll be drunk either way.
I don't think we will be though. We're gonna fucking win.
I'll stay drunk either way.
So Stanford was 17-20 in Harbaugh's first 3 years? They should have fired him after year three!
ummm that was Stanford a pretty crappy program, and since harbaugh has been their they have improved. rich rod's first year was the worst season ever, then he backed that up his second year by winning 1 big ten game. i agree that the team has progressed this year but is their any evidence this team will be better than 7-5 next year?
ummm, Michigan's roster was pretty crappy in 2008. have you forgotten starting quarterback nick sheridan and the worst OL in living memory? People pretend like RR walked into some cushy situation and screwed it up, when in reality he inherited the worst Michigan roster in generations.
And Harbaugh inherited what, exactly?
Harbaugh inherited a better situation at Stanford. There was a lot of depth left behind from the previous coaches. The defense and offense were both pretty well set before Harbaugh got there. Despite the advantages of the situation that Harbaugh was left with at Stanford, his improvement has been similar to RR at this point. In his 3rd year Harbuahg posted 8 wins including his bowl game loss.
Offensively Michigan was left in a terrible situation but this has been reversed by RR and the staff. Defensively all of the player retention issues and injuries have prevented the defense from obtaining the type of depth that RR wants to have. The growth of the freshman and the addition of currently redshirted and injured players will improve the defense.
Harbaugh inherited a better situation at Stanford.
I can't even tell if you're joking.
have you forgotten starting quarterback nick sheridan and the worst OL in living memory? People pretend like RR walked into some cushy situation and screwed it up, when in reality he inherited the worst Michigan roster in generations.
When he was hired, we still had Ryan Mallett at QB, Adrian Arrington at WR, Justin Boren and Alex Mitchell on the OL. All cited the coaching change as a reason for their departures. We badly missed all of them. And Nick Sheridan did not need to be the opening-day starter; Steven Threet was available, but the staff somehow thought Sheridan would do a better job. (And then, of course, Threet bolted at season's end.)
We have since the days of Joe Falls and Jerry Green been subject to an amazing lack of talent in the press. I went from 3 papers a day to 1 and only have that for local sports and, due to my age the Obituaries, how sad. They do not actually work a story anymore, but instead but a finger in the air and write what is a popular opionion. What is the prospect for improvement, what do two deeps look like around the conference, are we instilling discipline as student atheletes. We are building depth and look to have high character students and coaches. Some of the tactics and statements of conference coaches, and some of the behavior of student atheletes on and off the field has been outrageous this year yet is rarely commented on by these writers. Long for the days of Falls, there is more talent on the blogosphere than in the Daily's.
Joe Falls? That explains it. Joe Falls was considered among the biggest homers in sports journalism.
Ugh I hate reading crap like this.
Making another change now, especially when you're overhauling a century of pounding the football, would be detrimental to the program. When Rich Rod was hired, it was a given that changing the culture would take awhile.
It's working. Stick with it.
Rich Rod can coach and he can recruit. Speed kills.
working? Stick with what exactly? Need specifics at this point man. Coach Rod staying is a 50/50 proposition at best right now and I think it is time to put vague statements such "stick with it" and "stay the course" to rest. Wisconsin's <30 straight runs don't think it is working, neither do Michgian's 0 first half points.
OK Hypo, final score from Columbus OSU 48 Michigan 20. One paragraph (150 words) to explain why Coach Rod should stay..... and, go.
Wojo wouldn't write this unless he knows something.
What is that even supposed to mean? That Dave Brandon told Wojo that if we lose to OSU then RR's gone? Yeah, I'm sure.
More likely: Wojo has to write columns to get his paycheck, so he churns out tired, uninformed drivel like this.
This column is entirely out of character for Wojo. I think it's quite likely Brandon has spoken to him off the record about RR.
I think that many readers may have missed WoJo's point. He is not saying that RR needs to beat OSU to keep his job because losing to them would be unacceptable. Obviously, OSU is superior this year. What he is saying is that based upon RR's body of work so far - in particular his management of the defense, his record in the B10 and his record against MSU and OSU - RR is likely gone, BUT that a close game or a win against OSU could SAVE him.
I know that he doesn't come out and say this, but at least this was the implication that I got.
I agree. I think people need to take from the article are these two things:
One if RRs successor, if one is needed, is going to be Harbaugh, DB's hand may be forced because now may be the only opportunity to get him. Even if DB was willing to give RR another year, the guy he is targeting to replace him with probably won't be available when the defense fails to come through again given the current talent level and inexperience. In this scenario the only way DB can justify keeping RR is if he is positive that RR can beat MSU (on the road against a senior QB) or OSU (at home but they will still outmatch UM in talent). If he doesn't believe this there is no reason he should keep RR b/c he will have to fire him next year.
Two, DB is a Bo guy and what was Bo main concern....big ten victories and beating Ohio State. RR's B10 record would not sit well with Bo and can't sit well with DB. Can RR have a winning record in the B10 next year...the schedule does not set up favorably for a team with a weak defense.
Dave Brandon is a smart man, he won't only judge Rodriguez on his Big Ten losses or Ohio State. He will look at what RR is working with. He is not going to reasonably expect any coach in America to come in with the defensive players we have and expect them improve significantly. Coaches don't succeed at this level playing mostly freshman and sophomores. Maybe he will look over at Harbaugh's success in his first 3 years at Stanford before hiring him and see that Harbaugh fielded a few atrocious defenses himself with more experienced players than RR had to deal with.
Maybe next he will go over why there has been so many players leaving the program and determine if Rich is at fault for so many of the players leaving on the defensive side of the ball. In my opinion he will see that there has been a lot of bad luck for the defensive side of the ball over the past few years. He will wonder if the situation can be rectified. I think he will be able to see that we have players returning from injuries and a lot of underclassmen getting a year older and realize that there is tremendous room for growth.
Next he might say has RR improved the team. Well on the side of the ball where we haven't had major injuries and player loss there has been overwhelming improvement. The team is ranked top ten nationally and returns most of it's players. Next maybe he will look at the records. RR has continually improved by at least 2 wins each year. He then might say hmm maybe 9 wins next year. Why fire someone who continually gets more wins with a young team that is in it's infant stages of growth? It would be a bad decision to fire someone who has not once shown regression in his coaching record.
Do you deliver the paper or are you just to young to remember when we had writers of merit,
I didn't get the warm and fuzzies when DB hinted at the fact that "moving sideways" was not progress and then the overwhelming praise for coach Beilein and not for RR. I didnt come to any conclusions as a result of it but I can see why these inferences are being made.
Kirk Herbstreit on Joe Rose today said Rich Rod will likely fired on Monday and within 24 hours Jim will be named as Michigan head coach.
Here we go again!!!
Yeah, and Herby was the guy who broke the "Les Miles to Michigan" story three years ago.
To preface this, I'll say I really don't know what will fix our situation, because it seems like we have a lack of (mostly defensive) talent, a lack of coherent scheme (yes, even on offense to a degree), a lack of quality recruiting, especially on defense, AND a seeming lack of understanding on how to hang with the better Big Ten teams. With that combination, it's really hard to see what to do.
That being said, the most damning things about the RR situation are his stubbornness and apparent cronyism with respect to the defense. RR has stubbornly stuck to this 3-3-5 / multiple look defense even when it's been clear we've been getting punched in the mouth with no answer at all. GR has no clue how to run the defense, and the players have little clue how to play within it. Yet, RR sticks with it because it's what HE wants.
As I read it, GR was hired because he came to RR as a friend asking for a job. This either led to or was the culmination of what appeared to be a half-assed DC search. If we move along to Gibson, we see an inept coach who was retained because of another close relationship with RR.
As far as what should happen, it seems that if RR is willing to cede control of the defensive scheme to a quality DC and let go of his friends who clearly are not up to the task, then he should be retained. If not, as much as it pains me to say, it's time to go in another direction and suffer through another couple years of bad football. I say this because if things are kept as they are, our defense will never allow us to get to elite status.
you can listen to the replay on his online site....sorry i cant post the link damn military firewalls....
but i'd rather keep richrod around for another year or TWO at least just so we don't have to see ourselves
a. lose our awesome offense
b. get bombed into oblivion again by a system switch (unless we bring in another spread guy. that being unlikely given the 50,000 michigan fans saying "duuurr mitchikin man!")
I don't agree with Rodriguez' handling of the defense, but our defensive talent in the junior and senior classes is easily the worst in the conference. Martin could start for anyone and Van Bergen and Mouton would start for a lot of teams, and beyond that we have a handful of DL and LB who would be little-used backups on any other team, and one DB who would probably be a special teamer for anyone else. With the group we have, it isn't realistic to expect us to hold up against loaded offenses like Wisconsin and OSU regardless of who's running the defense. Likewise it isn't fair to blame Rodriguez for the lack of experienced talent.
This team had a very low ceiling even before Woolfolk got hurt. I think the defense would have been better this year if RR had let Shafer (or even G Robinson) run his scheme from the beginning, but given the lack of talent it had no chance to be good or even average. And as much as the defense has underachieved, RR's offense has overachieved even more.
It's a lot easier to go from terrible to average than from average to great. Regardless of who the coach is, with the return of Woolfolk and another year of experience for everyone else the defense should improve to below-average even if we keep screwing around, and average if the DC is allowed to run his scheme. If RR stays, we should have an elite offense. Elite offense + average defense = something like Auburn this year. If we dump RR for Harbaugh, the offense will necessarily regress until Harbaugh has veteran players who fit his scheme and may never approach elite level unless we can land a freak like Luck.
I think the most likely result is that RR winds up at Minnesota and takes D Robinson and a handful of backs and receivers with him, the UM offense slips back to average as Harbaugh struggles to implement his 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust scheme with players who don't fit it, and we go 7-5 again with prospects of more of the same for several years.
This is complete bunk. The athletic department just announced evaluation of the football program like all other sports will start after the end of the season including the post season. So RR will be here for at least a month.
Actually, it appears he will be here for 24 months barring outright collapse next year. DB will follow his beloved mentor, Bo, using Bo's dictum of a full 5 yr requirement to eveluate any coach in a new program. More to the point, DB told the Cleveland alumni this week that he is really excited to think of Denard as a senior at the "Jerry" bowl with Alabama in 2012. A potential Denard transfer is something he will avoid, hence no Harbaugh or anyone else if he can possibly help it. He talked about bringing the wow factor to Michigan. As far as the defense, he also talked about our 18 year-olds fresh from the prom playing against 22-23 year-olds with 19 seniors. He watches film every Sunday after games with RR and says there is no way for a quick fix of the defense, but that it will improve. He spoke with Lynn Henning about the risks inherent in change and has said he does not want Michigan to start to be seen as a school that changes coaches every 3 years. Finally he appears to prefer the spread offense as part of the wow factor along with night games etc. Hence no Harbaugh, ever, since JH neither favors the spread nor can he defend against it as seen in his 52-31 loss to Oregon in which 625 yards were put up against him. Further, he threw the UM program under the bus in 2007, with comments on academics in the department, and has an arrogance that does not represent UM well. Finally he started with 2 losing seasons at Stanford before goint to a bowl in his 3rd season and going 8-5. Do we want to do thjat again?
I look forward to a very exciting future with DB and RR at the helm
I question most of these points.
Why wouldn't he say that about Denard? He wouldn't assume Denard would transfer bc of a new coach.
He "prefers" the spread? He said that? He's a Bo disciple.
Of course he said there is no quick fix for the D, and that it will improve? What else could he say?
Of course he doesn't want M to change coaches after 3 years. Nobody would. Doesn't mean he won't.
DB would watch film with any coach. DB was a football player.
He and Harbaugh are old friends. He and RR are not.
until you tried bashing what Harbaugh is doing while defending what RR is doing.
If JH cant defend the spread because Oregon put up 52 on Stanford..then what does that say about RR? Oh yea it doesn't count because our D is all freshman..right?
An JH's 3 yard and a could of dust offense is better then ours...plain and simple
I think you've got something here. I mean, it's undeniable that Herbstreit has a great track record with regards to what's going on with the Michigan coaching situation. After all, he was the first person to announce that we hired Les Miles...
Hang on, wait a minute...