New Morgan Trent - RichRod Allegations
Bobby Deren, a senior writer for the Rivals Rutgers site, scarletnation.com has published Draft Season: Four Months on the Clock in which he chronicles the experiences of Morgan Trent, Kenny McKinley, Frantz Joseph and Lydon Murtha as they prepared for the 2009 draft.
This bengals.com story reports that Draft Season contains some sharp allegations about RichRod's evaluation of Trent in his communications with NFL scouts.
At the end of the book, Deren describes the scene with Lloyd Carr, the former Michigan head coach that recruited him to Ann Arbor, breaking the news to Trent that current head coach Rich Rodriguez did him no favors.
“Rodriguez had bad-mouthed him to every NFL scout he could,” Deren writes. “Rodriguez claimed that Morgan was lazy, he had an attitude problem and he was a big reason the Wolverines finished with a 3-9 record…”
Trent admits the words were “jarring,” and they were hard to understand given that he was so serious about his career that he actually moved in with his brother and sister-in-law and their two small children while going to Michigan.
...
[Bengals defensive backs coach Kevin] Coyle heard the rumblings, but he didn’t talk to Rodriguez and put more stock in other people close to the Michigan program that had been there before.
“When there is a coaching transition and the team ends up not having success, you have to step back and try to decipher what the truth really is,” Coyle says. “There was a lot of heat on those people and there was some pointing of blame. Plus, the players were somewhat chagrined, so you had to look at everything.”
Presumably this information has played a part in Trent's willingness to speak negatively about RichRod and the Michigan football program.
Predictably, to date this story has only been picked up by the Freep (print version link).
Glad to help
Except that one is the coach of the University of Michigan football team and the other is a student athlete. The coach has a responsibility to act like a professional, because he is paid to be one. Beyond the relationship between the two of them, how does this help Michigan recruit? You think Dantonio and Tressel aren't going to tell every kid who'll listen that RR bashes his own players?
If RR is worried about his program, he needs to act in the best interests of it. Trashing a kid does us no good.
If Rodriguez spoke well about kids he felt would fail, and they did, he would not ever be taken at his word again.
Also, there is no direct quote of Rodriguez. You don't know if he spoke in code or not - it's all paraphrased.
Of course I don't know exactly what he said. If the report is wrong, then so am I. I'm responding on the assumption that it is accurate.
That being said, blaming one player for a 3-9 season is not speaking in code. None of the alleged RR comments come anywhere close to speaking in code. Further, where did I say that RR should speak well of kids he felt would fail? I didn't. Not even close. If he doesn't feel the kid will succeed, he just gives the functional equivalent of a confirmation of employment. The meaning of that is clear.
I think I said that I thought that blaming him for 3-9 was going too far.
I highly doubt RR would make that statement in the context is is presented here, especially when talking to an NFL scout that understands football, it would make him look foolish. Certainly not impossible, although i am skeptical.
It would be like a CEO, speaking with an analayst with regard to poor quarterly results and blaming it on the performance of one employee. He would look ridiculous.
I think more likely the conversation attributed a large part of a 3-9 result to poor team chemistry and attributed Trent as being a part of that problem.
This is the only post that anyone needs to read on this thread.
Luckily I read down some more, and saw it had already been said.
But then I'm posting now too, so I can hardly be the to say "STOP, OH THE HUMANITY, STOP!!".
It sounds like you've done some hiring/firing. If that's the case, I assume you've also answered calls from someone inquiring about a past employee. Do you really go into detail? Or do you just confirm employment? As you probably know, "confirming employment" conveys the message without getting into the mud.
What RR did (assuming the story is true) was to go miles beyond a basic, neutral response in order to trash a kid. I'm sure the legal department isn't happy with RR over this. Of course, I'm sure all our rivals love it...and will be happy to point it out to every recruit with NFL dreams.
But you do not know what the norms are when recommending a player from the NCAA to the NFL. We can place our interpretive frameworks from our experiences on the exchange (the reported exchange), but they are really do us little good in understanding what happened.
Your assumption is, in part, correct. I do, however, know the norms with regard to college basketball players and the way coaches treat them with regard to a move from the NCAA to the NBA (or other pro destinations). I know, very specifically, that programs will go out of their way to ensure that, even for a player they want the hell out of dodge, they come out smelling like roses. Their feeling on the player will be known without such trash talking, and the coaches know to tread very lightly so as not to mar future recruiting efforts.
Well then, I stand corrected - this puts your comments in a different (more legitimate) light.
Officially? Yes, I confirm employment. But if somebody is transferring within my company, don't think an honest situation isn't held.
But what would be the equivalent of "confirming employment" here?
"Rich, what did you think of Morgan?"
"He played football for me for one season."
This is tremendous non-issue - from both people who want to villify Trent and people who want to villify RR.
Yes. He could even say, "Yeah. Nice kid. Fast. Played for me", in a grumbly, bullshit tone. You know how it goes...You can convey the message while completely covering your ass in the event of future disclosure.
Is it an end of the world issue? No. To me, and I guess I'll keep taking the negs as I think this is a fair concern, it just makes me think...what the fuck? It's so basic not to trash former employees (or, in this case, players). It's basic business and basic sports business. It's a dumb move that an astute coach in the modern game should not make.
I don't always agree with your posts, but you tend to make sense and present a fair argument. You know (if true) that this was a stupid thing for RR to do. Fireable? No. Stupid? Yes. If our coach is stupid (and loses games), that's a big issue. He can be dumb as a box of rocks, however, if he wins.
As a side note, of course an intracompany transfer calls for a detailed and honest assessment, but Michigan-to-NFL team is not a transfer within the company.
But if i have good things to say about the person also, I want to be able to convey those rather than just screw them with a 'no comment' that says the worst thing possible.
I want to give the person calling an honest assessment that will help them make a good hiring decision.
If I have nothing good to say about an ex-employee, they should know already, but if not I will tell them in a general sense that I may not be the best person to act as a reference and request that they not provide my name.
Big boy's game, it isn't always nice.
Personally, my impression (meaning my interpretation, which if more factual evidence comes to light, can certainly be influenced) of things is exactly that.
Several things I have read and heard about have previously indicated that Trent was not a player that had bought in and was firmly a partisan in the not-so-happy player camp. He has every right to feel that way if he wants to, but if he generally made this attitude known and was a negative influence on team chemistry, he should expect every bit of the assessment he got from RR.
You cannot fault RR for being honest, that is not fair. He has to be concerned about his reputation with NFL scouts because he will be putting players into the NFL for a long time. If he has no credibility in his assessment of players, then it will hurt the chances of every M player that goes into the draft as the information from their head coach will carry no weight.
***BREAKING***
TWO PEOPLE DISLIKE EACH OTHER, REASONS UNCLEAR.
More to follow.
Can the season please just start!?
excel in his draft prep. If LC said this to him, then that is probably where he was coming from. RR played Trent. I think that says what he thought of him.
You either make plays or don't. Ultimately it comes to that. When you don't make plays, you either learn from it and progress or you are wasting time.
There is nothing new here.
Assuming (for the sake of argument) that the reporting is accurate:
-RR acted in an extremely unprofessional manner. Some defend RR by saying, "Trent was lazy. RR has a duty to tell the truth." A manager of any sort, called for a reference, can respond in "code" if he doesn't want to endorse that person. You NEVER talk specific trash like that. It opens up the possibility of defamation claims, and with a football coach, gives rival coaches yet another nugget to negative recruit with. Is RR that short-sighted? The proper response would be, "Morgan Trent played on the team." If pressed for a follow-up, "I really don't have details to offer, but he was indeed a Wolverine." Sounds dumb. I understand. But, that's the professional way to trash a former employee or player. It is completely neutral in print and conveys the message.
-This is not the fault of the Free Press. Get the fuck over it. The Free did us no favors, but this isn't the Free Press and it's the actions of the coach in question...not any messenger.
-The "things will be fine when RR has only his players" theme is regrettable. C'mon...Is that really the type of guy RR is? A guy who can only function knowing that he hand-picked everyone around him? I doubt it. Coaches don't gain success by burning every bridge and distrusting anyone they haven't known for years.
At best, if this is true, RR was unprofessional to the point of sounding like a bratty child badmouthing a classmate. RR is the coach. The coach needs to lead by example and blaming one player for the 3-9 season is not what a leader (or mature adult) does.
Talk about trying to "fan the flames" after the fire has already gone out.......
Can you realize that every time you accuse someone of starting or fanning the flames you are doing so yourself? Please? It is really getting old.
I will stop the accusations when certain posters refrain from coming in and putting the most negative spin on any piece of RR information. There were already plenty of decent explanations of this particular situation, and "dahblue" came in way later with an attempt to put his "mega-spin" on it.
The "most negative spin"? Really?
If our coach said what was alleged, I can't see what the "positive spin" would be. The only positive would be if the comments are false. I realize your joy comes from negging my posts without thoughtful (if any) response, but open your eyes. We shouldn't need to continually find a "decent explanation" for something our coach might have done. "What had happened was..." is not a good way to run a football program.
The "negative spin" comment wasn't entirely referring to your above post.
During NFL draft discussions, I seem to remember you making an attempt to convince people of the similarities between Rich Rod and Matt Millen. At this point, I realized that you are in no way capable of taking part in a rational discussion regarding anything related to our coaching situation.
Dude...You're just a hater. You troll to neg my posts, and cry anytime someone dare mention the possibility that RR can't turn water into wine. The fact that you continue to dwell on an old comment is pathetic. Besides, RR turned a winning program into a losing program. Millen turned a losing program into an epic loser. Totally different.
Oops, I thought this was a new thread. I didn't realize that super old threads appear under "New".
Talk about burying your head in the sand...
This would be an interesting thought experiment if it contained, you know, thought.
I do think some things should be reiterated:
This "article" is written by Bengals.com about a book written by another employee of Bengals.com about a Bengals player, and is, decidedly, a puff piece. The article is a summary of a book, not a journalistic undertaking. You can tell this because:
-Rodriguez was not asked to confirm or deny. Otherwise, it would say, at least, "Rodriguez declined to comment.
-Carr wasn't asked to confirm or deny. Otherwise, it would say, at least, "Carr declined to comment."
-There are no direct quotes. No Coach of the Bengals confirms they received this statement from Rodriguez.
What we have is a reporter saying that Trent said that Carr said that a scout said that Rodriguez said something bad. With so many links in the chain, it's hard to parse verbiage.
I haven't seen anyone asking why LC wasn't consulted by the scouts. Seems odd that we haven't been presented that scenario, that scouts asked LC for his input. Or his position coach(es) over his career at Michigan.
And why did LC feel it necessary to pull Morgan aside to tell him about this?
Glad to see someone noted that RR hasn't done any of this crap publicly, while the noise from the former players seems ONLY to be in the lolmsm.
"Glad to see someone noted that RR hasn't done any of this crap publicly, while the noise from the former players seems ONLY to be in the lolmsm."
Do you honestly think former players aren't bashing Rodriguez in private, too?
But, personally, that's where it belongs.
On a related note, interesting how the former player camps are now becoming a little more defined, those who come back with deep support and regard, and those with a chip on the shoulder and a negeative soundbite at the ready.
If you read the article, Coyle said that they talked to more people who worked at Michigan with Trent than Rodriguez.
Which then makes the RR comments a bit of a moot point, no?
As well as all the hand wringing about these alleged comments by RR in general...I mean, really, if Morgan got better/glowing reports from other Michigan coaches, then his draft status was basically unaffected by RR's commentary.
this is from the OP
"[Bengals defensive backs coach Kevin] Coyle heard the rumblings, but he didn’t talk to Rodriguez and put more stock in other people close to the Michigan program that had been there before."
I assumed this meant the coaches before, like Bedford or English or Carr
I'm assuming what was actually said between RR and scouts has been twisted around and misinterpreted quite a bit by the time it got to Morgan Trent. It seems like it would be really out of character for RR to bash a player that badly, and it would be absurd to blame one player for the 2008 season. I'm sure the fact that Trent couldn't tackle and was often on highlight reels for the OTHER team had nothing to do with getting drafted so late. Trent needs to get over it, he made it, be happy.
Can't we just have ONE week without any negative news? Thats all I ask for, just 1 week.
You should worry about yourself. You haven't come out with a good album in over ten years!
The New Danger wasn't awful.
Not awful.....but not good.
"he was a big reason the Wolverines finished with a 3-9 record…” I really have a hard buying that. RR is a too good of a coach to not know that there was a plethora of reasons why 2008 went the way it did. I'm really getting sick of Morgan's crap. It is time for him to grow up. He should be focusing on his NFL career instead crying about his lackluster career at Michigan. A coaching change was not the reason why you would get beaten like you stole something. What was the excuse for the back to back Edwards/Dixon embarrassments? LC was there then.
True, but remember during the '08 Wiscy game when we had to have Trent return a punt because the previous 27 guys that we had in there all fumbled...and then Trent fumbled it? I remember that at that point I was just laughing my ass off.
The roster is close to being filled with players who are "all in." Soon, the BS coming from former players will be seen as the disgruntled whinings that they are. As for LC's role in this, I'm sure he will be having a talk with Dave Brandon soon. I would really like to believe that LC didn't actually say what he is being "credited" with saying.
At any rate, winning will solve a lot of problems.
apart from OP mentioned, but if you read the bengals.com article, it basically says Deren doesn't understand the business side of things. There is mention that Deren writes it is unprofessional and cruel to the players who get a phone call saying "we're not going to draft you, but we want you as a free agent." So why should anyone put stock in what this guy says?
Other notable items:
- There is no direct quote from RR, only Deren's paraphrasing, which I'm sure is exaggerated for selfish purposes
- There is not a direct qutoe from Lloyd about him apparently telling Trent that RR didn't help him (and if Lloyd is willing to trash RR directly to a player, why is this not addressed as a charaacter flaw of Lloyd?)
- Morgan seems generally pleased with playing for the Bengals. If he went in the 3rd he may not have been at a place he likes.
RichRod convinced Dee Hart's mother that he was a good person who runs the right kind of program. If he can convince her, do you think I'm gonna worry about Morgan Trent?
This claim is no more than an out-of-context snippet used to support a biaed view without confirmation by LC and the NFL teams involved. So, it's fair to question not only whether it accurately reflects what was said and what could motivate Trent to make such allegations.
I do not pretend to see inside Trent's head. But I do know this. Trent gets his paycheck from Bengals' owner Mike Brown, who grew up in Columbus Ohio as not just a huge Buckeyes fan. In fact, his dad, Paul Brown, coached the Bucks to their first ever national title.
This is no conspiracy theory...it's just common sense. Ask yourself: Would Trent's Buckeye booster boss be equally happy if Morgan had nothing but praise for the new UM coach? Ask yourself: do the attitiudes of your own boss ever color what you say publicly (or how you say it) when you know he/she is listening?
If what you say is true, I'd expect Leon Hall, Dhani Jones, and Chris Perry to have spoken poorly about Michigan, too -- as well as Jeter. I mean, seriously, how could he possibly be on the sidelines once per year when he played for Steinbrenner. No points.
Rich has to know part of his job is getting players drafted. So sellilng a kid down doesn't floatt well when he only really needs to comment on Morgans abilities not his attitude given how the transition went.
Morgan, if he fought everything every step of the way then what did he expect? Rich didn't owe him anything.
Lloyd telling Morgan Rich didn't do him any favors, well just straight truth from Lloyd no conspiracy there. But Lloyd knew the situation and tried damage control in speaking to teams for Morgan. But that said Lloyd couldn't save it any more then Rich could have damaged it. The film and workouts show what Morgan can do and his attitude on a bad team wasn't going to affect that.