from Penn State. These sanctions may very well go beyond football. Let's hope there is some media ban as well. Out of sight, out of mind.
NCAA source: unprecedented penalties against Penn State Monday
Some guy over on BSD is saying that a friend of a friend who works for the NCAA (rumor mongering &
all that) that it could be a two year suspension of the football program with immediate transfer for all players. That would be.....insane.
I heard from a groomsman in my wedding. His brother works for the NCAA as a PR guy. Anyway, I got a text from him on Thursday about what my friend had been told by his brother (I know, I know…my sourcing isn’t so credible, right?). Anyway, I snidely dismissed it right away as ridiculous and said there was no way. My friend just sort of said don’t shoot the messenger. Now, with this “unprecedented” talk, I’m nervous for the first time.
The punishment according to his brother: two year suspension of program with all players being granted full release with immediate eligibility (which seemed most strange to me since, you know, practice starts in like 2 weeks). Anyway, I’ve never been “that guy” but figured I’d share this…even though I still not necessarily believe it.
I wouldn't want to see my team on the field with them this year. and it's not fair to others who don't have them on the schedule (we are one of those right) because it's a scrimmage now when you play pus -- they will be worse than an FCS team. (no apply jokes plz).
Per ESPN's Joe Schad:
This is accurate. Have been informed by brother-in-law, on athletic staff at PSU, they have results. It has been agreed to and to some it could be viewed as worse than death penalty including immediate transfer.
When you say worse than the death penalty, do you mean like when you go to the fridge to get the last few pieces of pizza from last night, only to discover they have already been eaten?
That quote can't possibly be real
There are 119 BCS programs. Yes, there will be some disruptions in innocent bystanders lives. But no where near to the degree of the distruptions in the innocent victims' lives.
PSU the university has trashed its side of the contract to all involved. So tear up any restrictions on the athletes that would keep them stuck at PSU.
because tomorrow will punish 85-100 players, an entire new staff of coaches and assistants, the student body of PSU, and assorted other people that benefit from PSU football, ALL of whom are completely and utterly innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever. And don;'t tell me the players are ok because they get to transfer--they are not.
Unlike SMU. OSU and other scandals, all of which involved player participation in illegal benefits or activities, in the PSU scandal there are THREE people involved, three, other than the ex-employee most responsible. All of whom are either dead or fired and facing jail time. Yet all of the people not involved will now suffer for the sins of three. It's sad. And missing bowl games and losing scholarships does not a thing, not one thing, to comfort the victims.
Yes, it will be sad for all those reasons. But you know what would be even sadder? It would be for PSU football going forward to suffer essentially no real consequences, to continue to have an equal opportunity for success to any other program as if nothing had happened, and to enjoy the fruits and success today and tomorrow that the cover-up of child rape allowed the program. It does really suck, but that's the possibility the head coach, AD, and president gambled with when they covered up criminal acts to protect the university and football program. We can't go back in time and undo what they did. For the true victims, the children raped by Sandusky and their families, the worst insult would be to allow the football program to continue on, essentially unscathed. And yes, I would say losing scholarships and bowl games will provide some sense of comfort to comfort the victims; it says that the PSU football program and university created this mess and should not be allowed to continue. I can only imagine the pain and disgust the victims would feel if PSU were to go to a bowl game in the near future, and to watch the team and fans celebrate victory while the victims are still trying to heal. It's not perfect, but it sure beats no NCAA sanctions at all.
don't agree obviously. I think they have suffered a huge loss of prestige in public perception (witness the competition in the media and blogs to see who can suggest the toughest sanction, including mainstream media that normally pays little attention to football). Their reputation won't be the same for years, whatever the penalty. And beyond that (since I agree with you that bad media coverage isn't enough) they will lose literally hundreds of millions in lawsuits, and the remaing two people face criminal charges. That is the penalty that addresses the crime.
Every previous NCAA involvement before this was in response to actions that provided a competitive advantage in playing football. That is not the case here. Here the NCAA is making a moral judgement and taking the place of courts to punish an action they disapprove of (as we all do) but which provided zero advantage to the football program and involved no football players. That is not their place IMO.
Reasonable people will disagree of course.
slightly different take. We all agree a horrible crime has been committed. In many states all 4 involved could be executed. A cover-up ensued to protect the football program. So by default, the football program is a co-conspiritor.
Once the facts came out and there were conviction, it puts more pressure on the football. Everyone involved believed they were above the law, that they were untouchable. The 4 did everything they could to hide and allow Jerry to continue. Jerry was at the Executive Boxes the games before he was arrested. If that is not enabling, I dont know what is.
This is significantly worse than tat-gate, or paying a player. Hell Reggie Bush had to give back his Heisman Trophy because he took some money? This is peanuts compared to what PSU did.
So the football "program" has to pay the ultimate price. The football team must be torn down and start over. The death penalty does not even begin to start the healing process. The entire culture needs to be destroyed so this will never happen again.
The current players will not be punished. They will be given the option of transferring. If not the NCAA should allow those players to stay and get an education under the terms of their scholarship. They will still get a free education.
When someone gets convicted of a major crime no one says, "but he shouldnt go to jail because he has small children. They shouldnt be punished." Bad things happen to good an innocent people. It is just a part of life.
I have pledged to donate money to the PSU softball team if their is a death penalty.
^^^. This. The only thing I would add is the Freeh report puts the blame squarely not just on Paterno et al, but the entire "culture" at Penn State. The kids on current scholly will be fine one or another ( transfer -- whatever ). But that enire University, athletic department, and fan base must give their pound of flesh.
If you think it's "not their place" I would suggest that you read the NCAA mission statement. The fact that they haven't acted in this area before is irrelevant to whether they can.
So I have to ask, who are those three?
Were they the same three who allowed football to opt out of required compliance procedures? The same three who tolerated Paterno's refusal to allow the school to discipline players? Were they the only three with knowledge of Sandusky's assaults?
In my opinion. lack of institutional control such as existed at Penn State requires the involvement and acquiescence of many more people. It's okay to feel sad for innocent people who will lose something, but it's not a reason to minimize what is leading to PSU's penalties. Yes, OSU's scandal involved players and PSU's didn't. Is that a more important factor to correlate with the penalties than the amount of damage done by the violations? I don't think so, nor do I think the involvement of players is worse than the involvement of the upper administration.
other than those three, from the Freeh report on down.You make reasionable points, so I don't want to debate you, but to me the harm that is done to innocent people via this penalty is wrong, and is wrong because it doesn't address the problem, a problem which has already been addressed and corrected. And literally hundreds of people will be impacted by this penalty. IMO the legal process, and the civil court process, is the place for this punishment to take place. They will suffer huge loses via lawsuits, and the other two still alive face criminal charges. That is the remedy that addresses, specifically, the harm done. Not this.
When you refer to "three" what you really mean to say is the three people at the top who actively worked to cover this up and not that there were only three people who knew about this (which is demonstrably false), right?
Was it not the total power and ability to control the entire situation from both the PSU football head coach and the various other university and law enforcement officials and athletic heads that led to the cowardice of this cover-up?
The message to be sent is to all future administrators and coaches that if you think it is bad to blow the whistle on yourself in cases like this, and worry about your reputation if you disclose what is going on, it is even worse when we find out you covered it up and attempted to sweep it under the rug! The punishment is not about the water under the bridge, it is about making sure it does not happen again anywhere in college sports.
Can we get one thing straight?
The fault of the current players getting screwed is not the fault of NCAA. It is the fault of Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and Paterno.
THEY are the ones who decided to sweep the pedophile under the rug. THEY are the ones who (incorrectly) deduced that it would be better to keep things quiet rather than to come out clean - not once, but TWICE!!! THEY are the ones who are screwing the current generation of players. If they did what was expected of ANY human being of any moral character, NONE of this would be happening today. They traded the little embarrassment back then for the catastrophe today. They made that bargain, not NCAA.
NCAA is just doing what it can to reduce the chance of this happening again in the future (how small that may be). If they don't take any significant step, they would be crucified by everyone. Why should NCAA take heat for PSU?
NCAA is not screwing anybody. It is the incomprehensible action by the administrators and Paterno that screwed everyone.
But this action is voluntary, this action, in and of itself, is harming only people who had no role in this--it literally harms not one person that was at fault for the crime. That is wrong IMO. Punishment is supposed to harm the guilty--not the people who are left after the guilty people already have been charged. Would you support punishing a rapist's family (not just the one parent who didn't speak up) because they set the wrong "culture" for the rapist--or any criminal? Sorry folks, you enabled him, it's his fault--you suffer but... sorry, that's justice.
said that he's really tight with a guy who plays poker with a guy who cuts the grass for the assistant equipment manager at Temple. He says that his uncle is neighbors with a guy who grew up near State College. He said that you need to stop listening to 8th-hand rumors and just wait for the announcement. In fact, if the weather where you are is half as nice as it is in TN, we should all go outside and do something recreational. I headed there, now.
As interested as I am about the size of the NCAA's hammer, a can't help but think that this is all we are going to hear for the next month.
Damn I can't wait for football to start.
"Mass exodus" is a redundancy. An exodus, by nature, is massive.
Well that sounds good, but on the other hand I do worry about the current players getting punished for something some coaches and administrators did.
If there is a death penalty, I'm sure the players will have two options: transfer without penalty or stay, not play football, and stay on scholarship until football comes back. Neither sounds like a punishment to me.
The PLAYERS didn't do anything. Why should they be punished? A punishment of the university and football program that minimizes the effect on current players, who are innocent, would be preferable.
I think the university should pay stiff financial penalties, and use those funds to help children who have gone through these types of ordeals. I mean tough, 10 years of profit or whatever. I think that will hurt the university, especially those that covered it up, hurting less the current students/athletes that were not involved.
Why should all the students of the university who have nothing to do with football be impacted by this? Lest anyone forget, there are far more students attending Penn State for an actual education than play football for the school. Making the whole school pay huge fines to protect the current football team is the dumbest most sports centric idea I have ever heard.
they are not punished, they are inconvienenced.
If the players are free to transfer, can keep their scholarships, etc., I completely agree. My objection was with the comment that I understood desired to make sure the players were punished (not merely inconvenienced).
If PSU gets the "death penalty" a month before the season starts, the players will be more than "inconvienenced", IMO, and punishing people who had no hand in the incidents is stupid.
shouldn't be punished but whatever happens to Penn State, somebody is going to get hurt that doesn't deserve it. Everyone who was involved, afterall, has been removed already. The point of levying a punishment on a university or football program isn't just to exact retribution on the wrongdoers but to create a consequence for the institution that engaged in or failed to prevent bad stuff. That sends a signal to all institutions to take proactive steps to prevent the same kind of bad stuff from happening in the future. I don't have a strong opinion about what the NCAA should do but how current Penn State football players are impacted isn't high on my list of concerns.
Current players really can't be brought up or else you'd never be able to punish any university. Especially in this case, you can't say that the NCAA was mean and hurt innocent players, everyone needs to look to Penn State and blame them for hurting the current players and countless other people (especially, especially the victims). Not the NCAA's fault but they'll undoubtedly get blamed for being cruel
everyone still using the term "punish"?
Everyone has to keep focus on the the goal of the STUDENT-athlete. The student agrees to play a sport for a free education. I have never heard where the death penalty pulls schollies.
The football players will still get a top quality education. If the player wants to transfer, the NCAA will allow that. So how is it "punishing" anyone?
Hell punish me by giving me a free education, room, board and I dont have to practice 80 hours per week.
(Insert peeking Rosenberg gif here)
The football program was a vehicle for child rape for more than a decade. What do the concerns of the players --or anyone else indirectly involved-- matter in comparison to the greater reality of what they were a part of?
"They" weren't a part of anything except playing football. JoePa, Sandusky, Graham, and Spanier are the only ones to blame. These kids now are getting screwed because when they were 8-10 years old, a few assholes decided to fuck things up
Those "few assholes" happened to be the leaders of the administration, the athletic department, and the team (not to mention at least one other coach, McQueary, and god only knows how many others who no doubt heard whispers and did nothing). It was a cross-departmental conspiracy/cover-up at the very top of the pyramid. It wasn't just a few random bureaucrats. It's basically football Watergate.
I couldn't diagree more with the rationale that it was only four people the "fucked it up." Who gave Paterno his power?
Let's look at the culprits:
1: The PSU administration for showing no backbone. They did whatever Paterno wanted. It set up a power structure where there was no check to his power. As time passed, his power grew. They tried to remove him in the mid 2000's. He said no. The board and president knew if they fired him, the backlas from the alumni (and their donations) would be swift and severe. He was allowed to pick his own AD (his own boss).
2: The culture of the students and alumni. They worshipped him. He became the face of the university. Paternoville. The statue (and defense of). The school was Paterno's brand of football first and everything else second. The great strides made by their medical research was overshadowed by Paterno's football legacy.
3. Culture of the community. They let Paterno get his win before they charged Sandusky. The media didn't start hounding him until after he won the game that gave him the record. The backlash the victim received when it was found out he was accousing Sandusky (the victim and his mother received death threats due to the accusations).
The power that Paterno had was given to him by the culture of PSU and State College. There are many, many people to blame. Now, did the above know what was happening? I doubt it. They did put the mechanisms in place that allowed the cover to happen. The "Football is the face of the University" culture is what needs to be changed.
First off, while you're making valid points, you're still failing to prove how any of this belongs on the current players.
Second, can you really blame people? Prior to this, JoePa pretty much was perfect. How do you expect people not to worship him? Coaching since 1950 and never having any issues? He was their Bo, except bigger. I don't blame people for putting him on a pedestal, for giving him the power. He just showed that unlike Bo, he couldn't handle it. More of a specific character issue than a University problem.
I do think they need a reality check, but I don't think a Death Penalty is the way to go. Hampering their program (schollie reductions, bowl bans, media blackout, etc), issuing a LOIC, and having them on probation would be better than to end up punishing a group of people 10-13 years removed from the initial coverup
Institutions have rules and regulations, and mechanisms to monitor and enforce them, in order to prevent executives and other power-brokers, no matter how honest and rule-abiding they may seem, from wrong-doing. Penn State allowed the rules and the mechanisms to lapse on the theory that Joe was honest and in control. So although I agree with you that in some respects this is unique to Joe Pa -- Penn State will obviously never trust any other coach in the same way now that this has happened -- I do think that it is a University problem. The leadership of the Athletic Department and the University decided to gamble on Joe Pa, and they lost.
The NCAA, it seems to me, is interested in punishing institutions. Hence sanctions are designed to punish the institution rather than individuals (see, e.g., USC). In that respect, punishing Penn St as an institution for institutional failings makes a lot of sense.
Again, it wasn't the university as a whole. They didn't have a commitee vote involving all the falculty, it was 4 guys. Unfortunately it happened to be the 4 guys at the top, but let's not pretend that everyone at PSU knew about this and was actively covering it up. Penn State didn't allow the rules to be bent, the only guys with knowledge of the situation let the rules be bent.
That's what so many people seem to be ignoring. Having a cult of personality involving a football coach is hardly a novel thing in college football—Alabama and Bear Bryant sure as hell did, and anybody who says that we don't have a smaller version here in A2 revolving around Bo is simply fooling themselves.
However, that is light-years from having a tiny cadre of upper administrators and athletic people covering up a series of serious crimes that would have revolted and outraged the vast majority of Penn St students, faculty, and administrators had they known what was going on. The fact that there are boneheads who are angry about Paterno's statue coming down or idiots who placed threatening phone calls to the family of the victims does not mean that a majority of people in Happy Valley condone Sandusky's crimes, or the efforts by Paterno and others to cover them up.
but if the standard for punishing a university was that "the whole University" knew about a crime and covered it up, then you'd never punish any university.
Nobody is pretending that everyone at PSU knew about this. But many more people are at fault than just the 4 guys at the top.
Here are the salient facts:
- The coach knew.
- The AD knew.
- The president of the University knew.
- A senior VP knew.
- The Board of Trustees "did not perform its oversight duties" (Freeh report, p. 15) and failed "to make reasonable inquiry" (p. 16) into allegations against Sandusky.
- The football program didn't fully participate in some University programs (including compliance with the Clery Act, p. 17)
- The University had no centralized office to oversee institutional compliance (Freeh report, p. 31)
And there is much more in the Freeh report. Read chapter 10 and look at how many substantial recommendations the report makes. Penn State FAILED as an institution.
Jeez. Lack of institutional control doesn't mean everyone was guilty. It means the institution -- its leaders, its structure, its culture -- was fundamentally corrupt. All the leaders -- administrators, coaches, trustees -- failed, in one way or another. The top dogs covered-up child rape. The school and its trustees -- by their own admission -- failed in their oversight obligations. And the school in general -- again, by its own admission -- created a grotesque football-first culture (evidenced by the obscene pro-Joe riots).
Wake up, dude. How much more evidence of institutional corruption do you need?
Did you think it was "not fair" when Michigan was punished? It happens. You lose control of the program, let something that big occur, you get punished. And it will punish players in the future anyway even if it isn't the death penalty because they will not even sniff a big ten championship for a long time.
I think the Death Penalty is not fair, but that's about it
The difference between Bo and Paterno is that Bo possessed the wisdom to know when to walk away and had the courage to face life without football. Had he wanted to remain head coach of Michigan for life, he could have, and the culture of football worship that he helped create at Michigan would have allowed it. Who knows what kind of unpleasant consequences could have resulted from that. Fortunately for us, Bo was willing to put the good of Michigan ahead of himself. The sad truth about Joe Paterno is that for all the good things he did for PSU and the community, in the end he proved that it was all about Joe Paterno first and everything else second. If Joe had put school ahead of himself, then so many evils could have been avoided, and the result is that he wound up destroying the thing he claimed to love.
When George Washington gave up the presidency at the end of his second term in office, Napoleon was known to have been incredulous that someone could willingly give up absolute power. I don't think we'll never know how lucky we are as Michigan fans/alumni that Bo Schembechler was more Washington than Napoleon.
Lionsfan, I understand it sucks to be a fan of an institution which is about to get hammered. But making all these arguments about protecting the current players is exactly the mentality which caused all this to happen. It's about time all off us (yes, I include myself) fanatics get a harsh reminder of the proper priority college athletics should be.
I know the commissioners, coaches, and athletic directors love the money, attention, and power they have. All of the realignment and playoff talks have reaffirmed that. But schools are exactly that, schools. This situation is a great reminder that the education of everyone who steps foot on a campus is far more important that wins, losses, championships, etc. If you can not see that, than you have been swept up in this mentality just like the leaders of Penn State did.
The Lionsfan bit is the Detroit Lions. Not the Nittany Lions. I really don't care about PSU, I'm just giving my opinion. Just to clear that bit up
Sorry for misunderstanding on the name.
The points to your opinions still stay the same.
This one might sting a bit. Hopefully after this we can all move on. Getting tired of the non stop press and discourse about PSU.
I understand the sentiment of wanting to move on, but I do not agree with it. This is not only the most significant scandal in NCAA history, but also quite likely the biggest scandal in the history of Educational institutions in this country. People should be made to never forget what has happened here. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. I hope they bring this up at every PSU football game from now until there is no longer a program, Teachers should discuss this in class. We can't just "move on" from this.
How would a fine be unprecedented?
Death penalty and TV ban are not unprecedented either. Remember those words came from a source and not set in stone.
I just think the NCAA is doing this for good publicity, and it will be a punishment that will not damage the program long term. It is surprising they are punishing before full story is out as the perjury trials of Curley and Schultz are bound to reveal more detail.
It almost seems the NCAA wants to punish before news gets worse, similar to the North Carolina academic scandal where UNC pretty much got off scottfree. UNC got their NCAA sanctions in March, but most of the details of the scandal are coming out now. If the NCAA were to investigate today, the UNC basketball program would have been involved.
Also with Big Ten Media Days this week, this may make it less of a circus that it is already going to be.
Unprecedented = no death penalty. I wonder what they've got in mind exactly. Strange to see it come so fast, too.
It's not good for the NCAA to have Penn State be the topic of conversation in the national media every day. I do wonder what they're going to do however, that could be "unprecedented." Can the whole athletic department? Disallow home games for multiple years? Give the NCAA power over all personnel decisions of the Penn State football program for an extended period of time, including hiring a special overseer of sorts?
We shall see, I suppose.
Joe Schad clears up the "unprecedented" thing:
What is unprecedented is the process through which PSU punishment handed out, not necessarily the penalties
If they have no football for 1 or more years... do we still qualify as having 12 teams and a conference championship game?
NCAA seemingly has a waiver for everything under the sun. I'm sure their is a waiver for us to keep the championship game in this case. Unless Delany screws the paperwork up or something.
Why can't the NCAA leave their nose out of this. Let the legal system deal with the criminals, the NCAA should only be invovled when dealing with issues that give programs unfair advantages.
This scandal is rooted in the PSU culture surrounding football. NCAA is in the position to do something to change that culture. Why should they be prevented from acting?
How will the NCAA change the culture at PSU with the sanctions? They have already removed the coaching staff, and those who are legally guilty will be tried in court.
suspend football for some finite amount of time.
Because it was 3-4 people not at the university, if anything they should be fined heavily and banned from any university contact. But punishing a student body and student athletes that had no knowledge of any of these incidents is bit over the the top and typical NCAA. Bring the hammer on things that shouldnt be and not bring the Hammer on things that should (OSU).
The student body deserves to be punished based on their support of Paterno. They don't get it and only care about their football program. F em
The NCAA needs to repudiate the Paterno cult and the football culture at PSU. The school, the student & the alumni still have not fully come to terms with the moral and ethical failings that occurred for at least the 13 years from 1998-2011.
They need a timeout. The suspension of football for one or more years is the slap in the face the school, athletic department, students & alumni seem to require to get some fucking perspective.
Yeah, because covering up a bunch of free tatoos is WAY worse than covering up the fact that a pedophile is on staff . . .
I started where you are but the more I think about it, not dealing with all of the ramifications for years was a competitive advantage. Not saying they should squash the program but PSU got by for a very long time by selling a (false) image.
Just 'cause it's colleges?? = businesses
Covering up a potentially ruinous scandal that would damage recruiting and get the coach fired was not a gaining a competitive advantage? Do you really need this spelled out?
Has the NCAA ever ordered a school to take down a statue? Maybe Penn State knew the penalty.
Between the statue coming down today and the quickness of these penalties (the NCAA hasn't even officially accused Penn St. of violations yet), I'm thinking these are some sort of penalties the NCAA and Penn St. mutually agreed to in order to get this over with. If that's the case, those hoping for the death penalty are probably going to be disappointed, because I don't think Penn St. would agree to that.
The coverup of this scandal is so heinous, I'm sure PSU's new administration and it's BOT want to stop the bleeding. Destroying and rebuilding the football team goes a long way to correcting the culture that jopa and others created around it. Send the message that football isn't bigger than PSU.
Football is bigger than PSU... and the welfare of children. That's the whole point really.
To quote our fearless blogger out of context: "burn. All burn"
In the above statement from November 2011 are the four questions that Penn State had to answer for the NCAA.
The bylaws referenced point to the two issues that wouldn't surprise anyone here, of course - bylaws regarding institutional control and ethical conduct. Perhaps the most telling mention is 19.01.2, which in a nutshell says that individuals employed by member institutions are essentially teachers and therefore are to be held to a higher critical standard. This one has been used before in infractions cases, and I do agree with the sentiment - what sort of example fo young student-athletes did they really set with their behavior at Penn State? It's a totally fair thing to wonder, I believe.
This is going to be like Ohio State all over again. Lots of hype, very little action.
Wrong wrong wrong
But your post puts a thought in me.
What is Pryor had selected psu, where his dad wanted him to go? What a fiasco the last few years would have been at psu on top of this... And senator vest Ed still be at Ohio.
I think this as a word refers to the situation, not the magnitude of the penalties. But we'll see shortly.
Agree. I can't think of another time they have used a 3rd party's investigation rather than conduct one themselves before levying punishment. I really doubt there are any punishments left that have no precedent, unless it is lifelong expulsion from the NCAA--which isn't happening
Actually, that's typically how they do it. We hired a law firm to investigate the Ed Martin scandal, and the NCAA accepted it. They didn't investigate themselves.
The unprecedented part may reflect that they don't usually punish schools for this type of event. That said, there really hasn't been this type of event before. What ever happened to the Syracuse basketball scandall? Should Syracuse expect similar penalties?
What happened at PSU is a lot worse than what happened at Syracuse, though. I've always been kind of wary of the NCAA's involvement in this case, but I can see the other side of the argument that nothing like this has really happened before. I could understand why the NCAA would crack down.
I don't know much about what happened at Syracuse, but I do recall their coach making jokes about it. I guess PSU football is way more high profile and there's evidence a cover up. Still, I'd expect some version of a punishment now that the door is open.
There were no jokes. Boeheim called the accusers of Bernie Fine "liars".
Here is the timeline.
Accuser 1 comes out in 2003 to ESPN, ESPN ignores said accusations and holds on to tape of wife of Fine and accuser talking about it.
2011: Accuser 1, and step brother Accuser 2, come out 4 weeks post PSU scandal about Bernie Fine allegations.
Bernie Fine is terminated from employment. FBI called in.
Accuser 3 submits that Fine also abused him. 3 is also standing trial for pedophilia and rape.
Accuser 4 submits Fine abused him.
Accuser 4 recants story.
Accuser 3 tells everyone that he "lied". Then backtracks and says that he didn't.
Accuser 1 and 2 tell everyone who will listen this is not about money.
Accuser 1 + 2 are informed they cannot file civil suit against Syracuse or Fine due to lack of evidence. Criminal suit has had statue of limitations run up.
Accuser 1 + 2 sue Syracuse Boeheim for defamation of character for money.
Entirely weird case.
very strange. thanks for the timeline. no wonder nobody is talking about it anymore.
Basically, turned out the guys were lying, and after the Penn State situation, ESPN was trying to capitalize.
That's why it's all just gone away.
Unprecedented could mean a multiyear death sentence. SMU only got one year, they did the extra year voluntary. I'm a little surprised this is happening prior to PSU getting hammered for Clery Act violations, but at least the NCAA will take care of it. Here is to hoping the B1G members over in the Woody Division are on the phones with MAC schools tomorrow trying to get a last minute date.
There is no letter of inquiry or hearing so it is most likely PSU worked with NCAA on any sanctions possibly coming down tomorrow. Any multiyear death penalty would probably need a hearing.
For me the fact that the NCAA is doing penalties prior to the Clery Act issues being resolved and prior to any kind of real hearing or response from PSU, but doing it before summer practice starts, suggests the kind of penalties where kids are free to transfer.
If they were just going to bowl ban or fine PSU, they could do wait a month and do more of an investigation.
Regarding the hearing, it could be PSU's admins saw the writing on the wall and just agreed to the suspension. It gets PSU out of the news cycle faster as opposed to having six more months of the NCAA investigating and all kinds of stories breaking about that investigation. Also there are other forces, I work under some folks who are big names in the CiC and they were furious about the coverup. There could also be pressures like the CiC/B1G saying "Shut up and take your medicine or learn to schedule as an independent." Basically if PSU got anything less than the death penalty there is going to be a movement within the B1G for removal of them. I base this on a conference I was at where some PSU Associate Dean tried to make a joke to downplay the scandal and the other 12 CiC delegations just ripped him to shreds for the next half hour. He eventually slunk off the stage and wasn't seen for the rest of the conference. The rest of the PSU delegation spent their time trying to fade into the walls.
Basically when the guys who want the death penalty start talking in CiC meetings, no one moves to defend PSU and push a lesser penalty. No one is willing to spend political capital to save PSU and there are guys who are willing to spend it to kill PSU.
I disagree with one point. If the penalty is not really extreme than their news cycle will be 10 fold
Well I was assuming the accepted at least some level of death penalty as the deal. Otherwise as you said, one of the storylines for this entire season is "Did PSU deserve the death penalty?".
If they really want to show the appropriate level of remorse(which frankly they haven't shown any of to this point) they would vacate their wins from the Paterno era and remove any evidence of their existence from PSU's campus. That would be a start.
I hope the NCAA is Rome, and Penn State is Carthage.
I was thinking the same thing about Auburn, Miami, and UNC the other day.
I caught the end of Lee "Hacksaw" Hamilton's conversation with someone Wednesday afternoon that hinted towards a possible ban on ALL Penn State athletics for 1 year.
That seems not only unrealistic but also excessive.
all i know is that ITS GREAT TO BE A MICHIGAN WOLVERINE
football did this to those kids. The almighty power of football. It seduced previously good men and turned them in an evil regime, made them protect their football brand over the evil they allowed to exist in their midst. The seduction of football greatness gave paternoster absolute power... And absolute power corrupts absolutely...
There is NO difference between how um and pus fans loved their team, their university, their community. The fact we have all cycled thru multiple F5 keys on this blog/board is proof, all of us have been seduced by football too.
So, we aren't better. We aren't different. we are all humans. Your reaction should be: THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD, GOES I.
This is a sad sad sad day for all football fans. Not a time to gloat about our football success versus theirs.
I had a lot of typos in that post. And iPad won't let me edit. Paterno not paternoster; psu not pus...
Schools would have to be notified ASAP to find other opponents I would think.
FWIW Source at school playing Penn State this season has heard nothing about season/game being cancelled
Maybe the have been told. Maybe the Webb transfer wasn't just because he was worried.
Greg Webb decommits, Ross Douglas visits Nebraska, and another commit was working out at FSU camp to try to get a scholarship all this past weekend.
They may have not been given specifics, but they may have been told something down the pipleine.
Ha...with the NCAA, that may be the extent of their penalties...
We hearby force the decommitment of an incomming recruit. May god have mercy on your soul...
With the quick turnaround time by the NCAA, I don't think they play this fall.
However, you're in the minority now.
Most signs are pointing to them playing this season.
It has been real.
On one hand, it seems like the NCAA is over-stepping their bounds, and I agree with Brian on the whole redundancy of punishment thing.
On the other hand, I don't really care and think they deserve it.
Absolutely nailed it.
I wonder if he would feel like Nero did watching from a villa balcony as Rome burned?
I agree with this almost exactly.....with one slight change.
I don't think they should get the death penalty. For one, I think that would turn them into a sympathetic figure in the eyes of many, and then you'd have "PSU nation" or whatever feeling like martyrs instead of feeling appropriately chastised. And I don't think it's fair to the current players.
On the other hand, whatever size hammer the NCAA brings outside of that, I'm fine with. If they want to stick with their usual deal, scholarships and bowl bans, only instead of five a year and one season, it's fifty a year and ten seasons, cool.
Mark Emmert was granted authority to punish PSU in unprecedented manner by NCAA Board and Committee
Penn State facing loss of bowl/s and scholarships, but not so-called death penalty
Penn State sanctions expected to be extremely harsh and could even be perceived as more damaging long-term than "death penalty"
Thee sanctions were not self-imposed or negotiated. This is Emmert taking a stand he felt he had to due to horrors in Freeh Report.
but I have a strong feeling PSU was consulted on this otherwise they would need a hearing process. You can't punish a member without due process unless the member is agreeing to the punishment. I think this is just publicity to make the NCAA look good.
Joe Schad's Twitter has a lot to say about this: https://twitter.com/schadjoe/
"Penn State facing loss of bowl/s and scholarships, but not so-called death penalty"
"Penn State sanctions expected to be extremely harsh and could even be perceived as more damaging long-term than "death penalty""
"Thee sanctions were not self-imposed or negotiated. This is Emmert taking a stand he felt he had to due to horrors in Freeh Report."
According to NCAA source via ESPN, it is NOT the death penalty. HOWEVER:
1) the penalties will be intrepreted as EXTREME
2) they may be perceived as worse than, or at least on par with, the death penalty
3) Pres Emerek of the NCAA was granted extended powers by the NCAA board of governors in order to do this.
Penn State sanctions expected to be extremely harsh and could even be perceived as more damaging long-term than "death penalty"
Penn State facing loss of bowl/s and scholarships, but not so-called death penalty
So which is it? Loss of bowls and scholarships really doesn't seem to fit the bill of these crimes. Bowl bans and scholapship losses are like community service nowadays
Not necessarily. If it's something like a 5 year bowl ban and a reduction of 50 scholarships over 5 years, I'd say that's pretty damn brutal. You'd basically be eliminating any decent recruit coming in for the next few years.
Combine that with a current player exodus, and you have a program that gets pounded week in and week out for the next decade.
It will take a decade to recover. The glory days of PSU will be a story to be told to children and grandchildren. Watching them get humbled week in and week out will do what horrifying news could not.
It also allows for future players to be "those who stood", and to create a new beginning, one that does not pay homage to criminals.
Also, it doesn't punish the other schools Penn State has scheduled with. College football schedules are created years in advance, and a last minute opening for 12 schools would create chaos.
It punishes those of us in the conf who DONt have a crossover game with psu. Msu gets a freebie win and we don't, that sort of thing. Game shouldn't count in division standings.
But I'm glad I won't see us on the field this year with That Team. Change the uniforms at least....
How sad...we get to play tOSU...
If I was them, you don't touch the Uniforms...what if it was the other way around...no one touches the winged helmets...Period
Not that it matters, but under that scenario, wouldn't PSU's team be weaker in the coming years than it will be this season? It seems that would benefit us.
That's an excellent point. If you just suspend football for a couple years, they'll be back. Their donors will just flood them with case in year three when the program comes back and get PSU rebuilt as quickly as possible. Long term punishment is excellent as it forces the culture at PSU to de emphasis football for years, no matter how much money the donors flood into the program.
My only fear is that in a couple years mass media has moved past this, the NCAA loses its spine, and lifts the last half of the punishment based on time served or something. Otherwise I'm all for crippling PSU down to a level where Indiana can put up 70 on them for the next decade.
Have they ever done a "time served" thing? I can't think of any instances.
"It will take a decade to recover. The glory days of PSU will be a story to be told to children and grandchildren."
Kinda like the team in South Bend?
the penalties or the way they are giving the penalties?
Why didn't he just say Urban Meyer?
Nobody goes against St. Urban if they can help it.
Random coach: "Oooooooooo, Matt McGloin and Rob Bolden........"
He had been on the edge of transferring 3 times already. This is his ideal exit strategy.
McFavre will get ya if you're not careful!
Bet the big ten bars anyone from granting Scillies to psu players. Will be a feeding frenzy.
I have this image of a job fair at psu, diff schools can set up tables and the psu players can visit each of them...
The job fair essentially happened when SMU got the death penalty. I doubt this time would be any different.
To be fair, I wouldn't say no to a spare upperclass lineman and DT.
in the previous posts, but PSU received a letter of inquiry last November so this is not some sudden decision by the NCAA without the usual investigation.
Also this is harsh and would really F up the Big Ten schedule.
Not necessarily. Everything points to their program still existing in some form and competing after the NCAA punishment. They may be a cupcake game for a very long time but it won't mess with anyone's schedule.
Ok, is the Zettle speculation back into the mix?
So BK Finest could turn out to be correct after all?
Tomorrow's sanctions will be a reminder to Penn State of how good they've had it the past 15 years. Is it fair to the new kids and staff? No, but there's nothing else you can do about it when this many years have passed.
Actually, if the NCAA allows PSU players to freely transfer, it's very fair to them. I would hope that quite a few players would love to get away from that turmoil on campus. They didn't sign up for any of what they're getting now, even if the NCAA does nothing. The option to transfer without sitting out a year makes it a lot easier to get away to a better environment.
Ok, I'll say it. Penn State deserves everything they have coming their way, but goddamnit, I'm still pissed that the ultimate on-field beneficiary of this whole this will be Ohio State. Not only will it open up the division by gutting the second "traditional power" in that division, but for the second year in a row, Meyer's recruting strategy of "wait for PSU to implode" will pay off in spades. Just kick them out of the B1G so it doesn't benefit one team/division more than the other. They also deserve that as well.
Penn State deserves what they have coming to them, but its ridiculous that OSU got a better coach due to their scandal, and now are getting much better recruiting classes due to PSU's scandal. It's frustrating, to say the least.
We haven't gotten a single commit from PSU yet this year. At most, the only commit UFM would want this year is Dorian Johnson.
Meyer won't accomplish half of what Tressel did while at OSU.
You're pissed about the wrong thing.
OSU's class is mostly full. Also, Meyer didn't really have any choice of recruiting strategy for the last class.
Otherwise I agree with you.
I really don't think this is outside the NCAA's bounds. Penn State football clearly benefitted from covering this up and it was a big thing that was covered up. They deserve serious punishment of some sort
The diehard PSU fans are already spouting venom everywhere and anywhere except at JoePa and the cult of personality they helped create for him. If you look at PSU fan boards you hear anger over and over at the PSU president and Board of Trustees, outside media, Freeh (even going so far as wanting to sue Freeh for the report) and of course Sandusky, the former AD and former president. But at some point, the PSU fans have to recognize that JoePa was a central figure in the scandal and acknowledge that their intense adulation of JoePa was misplaced and is part of the reason it was so diffucult to out and prosecute Sandusky in the first place. Hell, even the prosecutors who finally indicted Sandusky waited until JoePa set the record for most wins.
If the PSU fans ever want Happy Valley to be known as anything other than the creepy little town where winning football and idolizing a football coach took precedence over prosecuting a child rapist, they need to start backing away from their delusional groupthink that there was one monster and two other miscreants in their midst (not JoePa) and that everything else was always just fine except for that, and that the only thing that needs to be changed now is the current president and Board of Trustees because they are being influenced by outsiders and not defending the honor of JoePa.
I honestly don't care how harsh the penalty is, they deserve it.
As for the players...could the NCAA screw them any more, if the rumors are true? 1 month before the season starts? Freshman are arriving, Seniors are getting ready to play their last season...many of these kids may never play football again.
Just throwing this out, but not only does the NCAA remove all obstacles to leaving PSU, but also removes a few to landing a roster/schollie at another university.
Say the NCAA agrees not to count up to four PSU transferees against existing scholarship limits, subject to
- Not more than 3 have 2+ years of elgibility left
- Not more than 2 have 3+ years of elgibility left
- Not more than 1 has all 4 years of elgibility left
This would allow all players to land immediately at other colleges w/ the ability to play this fall. It also would provide an incentive for schools to accept the marginal senior.
I'm sorry, I've seen you say this before, but that is easily the dumbest thing I've read about this whole scandal so far.
I'm sure if somebody came up to you at your job tomorrow and said you had to pack up, move to another city, you'd have no assurances of meaningful employment there, and even if you did, you'd have 2 weeks to learn everything there before being forced to compete with others, you'd lose your accumulated pension or other similar benefits, you'd be unsure of the new benefits you'd get at this potential job, and you'd have to leave your friends and family, you'd say "No big deal guys! It's nothing more than inconvenient!"
Give me a break.
Isn't that apples to oranges? The "benefits package" should be the same: a full ride scholarship in exchange for playing football. Plus, they get to select from over 100 landing spots and situations. While the playing time/learning a new system is true, I think you over extended the analogy.
I'm sure the emplyees working for Enron would have been very happy to get new jobs where they could have the same pay and benefits (free education).
is disgusting. Maybe this will finally serve as a wake up call to those still blind to the tragedies that took place.
I wouldn't bet on it. Anyone who hasn't figured it out by now is never going to. The point is mostly now being made to the NCAA's other members.
NOPE. My brother now thinks its a knee jerk witch hunt, and that people blaming Paterno are ignorant.
Ummmmm first off the ncaa has no flipping right to punish pennst in this matter no matter how angry we are at what happened. Don't tell me about any moral clause in ncaa bylaws those are aimed at protecting athletes and you all know this.
Pennst will get hammered and deservedly so by the dept of justice and dept of education for what happened and those responsible for enabling sandusky are going to prison, joepa aside and even he gets his sentence with his entire legacy in ashes now.
So now the fact that the ncaa is jumping into this mess when they haven't been able to properly handle, auburn, ohiost, usc, north carolina, miami, oregon and others they want to deal the death blow to pennst for something completely out of their jurisdiction and not a single page in their bylaws about this..............................no it isn't pennst that should suffer the ncaa death penalty but the ncaa itself!
The NCAA only piles onto the weak...right now, no one can stand with PSU. I hate the NCAA
I am somewhat sympathetic to this point of view, especially since the NCAA has made such a mess of dealing with the other schools you mention. If they are levying penalties, it seems they must be using the Freeh Report as the basis, which unlike the other universities' fact finding missions was given free reign, was independent, and turned up evidence that was more damning to the university than was initially presumed.
From the Division I Handbook, Section 2.4:
"For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program"
This is the Principle Of Sportsmanship And Ethical Conduct, which is a basic principle of conduct for all NCAA member institutions. This principle is the basis of one of the four questions that had been asked of Penn State back in November by the NCAA, and in all honesty, they have apretty solid case for saying that Penn State did not comply with this basic principle. I would think that we agree that the program's behavior, and indeed the school's behavior, do not demonstrate any of the values mentioned here. We can quibble about the NCAA's intriguingly inconsistent history on follow-through with various schools, but recognize also that what happened in State College isn't even on the same planet with the violations at Miami, Oregon or Ohio (among others). While I am not entirely sure what to expect from the NCAA, if they wanted to use this particular principle, it's definitely applicable.
You still don't get it.
and you're not the only one, but this argument makes no sense at all.
The NCAA rulebook details actions that are not permitted to gain a competitive advantage. It only specifies activites that are lawful. It doesn't detail criminal activities because they don't need to. By their very nature, all of them give an unfair advantage. A single ethical conduct section is the logical way to address criminal behavior. I can't imagine reading a rulebook that detailed every possible criminal act that would also be against NCAA rules.
One thing that should be relevant to the NCAA is whether the criminal acts either benefitted the program or were intended to. Sandusky's crimes did nothing to help PSU and the NCAA should not be acting on them. PSU's coverup was designed, at least in part, to maintain the sterling reputation of their football program. Since they actively used that reputation in their recruiting it has rightly become an NCAA matter.
Punishment is necessary for Penn State. The only reason why a child molester was allowed to have unrestricted access to multiple victims was because the leadership of the university placed the reputation of the football program above the safety of young boys. It is more than appropriate to take a step back and put the importance of the Penn State football program in perspective as to how important it really is.
Well if the Big Ten needs to fill Penn States spots in the schedule there is always the possibility of playing fcs se, fcs ne, fcs sw, orr fcs nw. The great thing is the schools can play multiple games in the same day too.
The B10 should go hands-off on PSU players. A feeding frenzy would look awful.
The penalty is not redundant. Brian is way wrong here. Just because a program faces legal issues doesn't protect them from NCAA punishment. That reasoning is illogical. The NCAA is free to punish for program-related infractions, among them lack of institutional control. This was the quintessential example of same.
I don't think you and Brian are talking about the same thing. You are talking about what the NCAA can do, a legalistic argument. If I understood Brian correctly, he was talking about what the NCAA should (or should not) do, a moral / ethical argument. I still disagree with Brian, though. I do think the NCAA should be involved.
but potentially significant loss of scholarships and a multiple year bowl ban.
Paterno family has released a statement onthe statue coming down and they continue to not know to JUST SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!
Tremendous, Taco Pants, Bolivia, The Horror, etc.
So.... who won the Elite 11?
The land grant trophy just won't mean as much for them this year....
I was wondering what the death penalty this year would do to the conference schedule since we are one of four teams who does not play Penn State. (For instance, who would go to the conference title game? 7-1 Michigan or 6-1 Nebraska?) But it seemed doubtful anyway.
I'll tune in tomorrow but it will likely be nothing more than scholarship losses and bowl bans.
TV bans are no longer an option in 2012 no matter how big of a scandal it is.
I haven't read all of the comments, so apologies if this was said, but,
I'm thinking that Hoke should have his number on speed dial. We could desperately use a talented non true freshman body at DE.
I was thinking the same thing, honestly. The kids playing there on offensive or defensive line will have plenty of opportunities to play for another B1G school because of all the recent coaching changes
Also: CJ Olaniyan is from Warren for whatever that's worth.
Those who committed the crimes are long gone. The few, the loathsome few, are now either dead, in forced retirement, and/or without hope for a future. Why, then, are we talking about punishing the university as a whole for the crimes of a few people??
If it was wrong(as many in academia today say) to punish the Germans and Japanese for acts FAR worse than what the Penn State administration did then why is it okay to destroy PSU football? This punishment is nothing less than cruel and unusual.
Anyone who supports or advocates for PSU football destruction is a person guided not by reason or justice, but by pure vengeance. A mind guided by reason can readily see that the crimes here were npt those of the PSU community, but by a few who represented said community. If we establish the precedent that an entire community can and ought to be punished for the crimes of their leaders then we Americans ought to prepare ourselves for a hellfire unlike few countries have ever seen.
I think we need to remove the disgust and horror at Sandusky's crimes from the equation when discussing what ought or what ough not to be done to PSU.
Jerry Sandusky should die. Those who aided and abetted him should be in jail.That is my belief. But that is where the punishment ends in my estimation. Punishing others who had nothing to do or benefitted in any way from these crimes is simply wrong.
By that reasoning no organization should ever be punished for the acts of individuals. Do you think the SEC should punish Goldman Sachs when its employees commit securities fraud? Should Southwest Airlines be fined when one of its maintenance managers doesn't perform required maintenance on its fleet?
If organizations couldn't be punished for the acts of individuals every organization would simply create a firewall around the part of the organization that was cheating. Organizations are punished so they don't have incentive to commit crimes.
countries for many years after the war. Individuals were arrested and tried for war crimes. Some were put to death and others imprisoned. But the occupation did indeed impact the culture of both countries. The Allies imposed their will so that these countries would not rise again to do the horrible deeds they had done.
Penn State needs the NCAA, Government, victims lawsuits to all come down on a culture that neglected human rights and thought football was more important. As of this morning there two people interviewed by ESPN who said it was wrong to take down the statue. Nothing was said about the victims. When are the victims going to be given sympathy and due consideration.
Don't people get it. The culture at Penn State needs to change. That school cares more for football than human rights. Maybe not all, but not all Germans were Nazis either. Still the penalties must be given to all.
Question: Were you home-schooled? Or an only-child?
Hmmmm . . . So you are saying that the NCAA needs to occupy the PSU athletic department? They then can put in their own administration they can control?
BTW - The fate two countries and their citizens far outshadows what happens to an entertainment entity. I have a hard time finding any correlation between WWII and the PSU scandal. Germany, Japan, and much of the world needed to be rebuilt for the betterment of the world's population. The citizens of the world were starving, without housing, medical treatment. Major cities were destroyed. People were killed because of their heritage and beliefs. A new weapon that could destroy a city and kill thousands of people had just been used. The fairness of what happens to a group of players who were getting an education in exchange for playing a game pales in comparison to the atrocities of WWII.
I will play this game anyway. The Allies took over Germany and installed their form of government to change the culture (and protect themselves). I'll give you anther thing to ponder: when was the last time Japan had a strong military? The culture of what happened was changed. If the culture of PSU is changed, it can and will survive without football.
Your logic fails in multiple ways. First, don't compare this to WWII. Second, if you must draw the comparison, you should understand that Germany and Japan continued to be punished (directly and indirectly) for many years. Third, if you don't punish an offender for crimes committed previously -- and all punishment necessarily comes after the crime occurs, sometimes many years after -- then how do you deter future infractions? It's the only way. Otherwise, PSU just gets away with it.
DEATH PENALTY BITCHES.
This is worst. Penn State still has a team, but with nothing to play for over half a decade, and with how gutted scholarships may be, theyll be fielding a DII team.
...agree not to complain that the NCAA sanctions against PSU naturally favor Ohio State? Because that would be missing the point.
I actually feel bad for the employees of penn state that have had nothing to do with any of this. The AD of compliance and their staff members lives will be a living hell for the next few years. Imagine getting hired on for a job and being completely excited about it, then 2 years later this stuff rolls out. The amount of work that a compliance officer has to do under a probationary period is horrible. At Regional Rules the year after Indiana got hit with their sanctions their employees looks like they had been going through a war. They had to feel like as if everyone was judging them and they had done nothing wrong. An intern found all of the violations and the compliance office immediately turned it into the NCAA, but people still judge them. It's sad.
When you are the person/team that has to deal with it, you will come or on the other end looking better. Clearly, so many people who played no role will be the ones left to restore some sort of pride. It won't happen now, or a year from now, but most of those people will go through the shit days and at least know they can do something to restore pride to the school they love. Our society tears people down, but also loves a comeback...
I am the first to jump all over the culture that was created at PSU, but I believe most of the alumni are proud and know there is no other choice, then to take what is dished out. They need to take their penalty. Not bitch about it..and move forward to be what they all thought they already were. Those people doing that work will ultimately be gratified.
(am I a pollyanna??)
What a mess he voluntarily stepped into.
A new twist: now their own university president is viewed as one of the villains.
A lot of "I can't believe....". Total delusions by the PSU faithful.
agree. They are not a caring bunch to say the least. Open up you mind and your eyes PSU faithful. Look what reps from your school did. Damn. This isn't brain surgery. There were little children involved in all of this. PSU is starting to cry out like they are the victims. NOT.
Reliable source with PSU connections tells me 5 years bowl ban, 3 years no TV, 60 schollies lost over five years.
Brutal. Would crush the program
There is no way it is that harsh. That would destroy the team for a decade.
Given that they covered up Sandusky for 14 years (if not longer), I really don't feel any sympathy.
Yes, but the NCAA has said before they would never do what they did to smu to another school. They never thought the penalties that they gave smu would be that damning. It killed that program for a quarter of a century.
The NCAA never took the death penalty out of the rulebook. Their spokesmen just said that they didn't expect to levy it again. But they never expected a scandal of this magnitude to occur.
This is true, but are four mens secrets worth crippling an entire university for decades to come? With smu you had the governor of Texas involved, the board of regents, and boosters. In this scenario you can fit on 2 hands the number of people who even knew about it. Outside of lack of institutional control what jurisdiction does the ncaa really have in this?
well, outside of that, absolutely nothing.
First, we don't know that this will actually cripple the program for decades to come. You're assuming that based on the SMU thing. But SMU did not have a history of success before it started cheating, and it was not admitted into the Big 12 when the SWC collapsed. PSU has a huge fanbase, much more of a history of success and will presumably stay in the Big Ten. It's apples/oranges.
Secondly, it wasn't just four men who knew this "secret". It was at least seven - McQueary, his father, and the janitor, too. And there probably were plenty more besides them. Think the victims never told anyone in the community what Sandusky was doing to them? I think we're going to eventually find out that the cover-up involved far more people than has been reported.
This situation is beyond criminal. Tens years of crippling the program is fine with me. How long will it take for the victims to recover. I was sexually assaulted when I was 12 years old. I'm 63 now. Still not over it.
I've always been confused with TV bans. Michigan doesn't play PSU this year so it doesn't really matter this year, but does that ban the game from being televised in the other team's market as well? Doesn't Michigan have some crazy streak of televised games that would be broken in 2013?
I'd honestly be really upset at a TV ban. They come back on the schedule next year and I want to see blood on the field, to take a partial quote from Kalis. Also, while it's a relatively minor obstacle in my life, the smaller programs they play gain exposure from being on national television those few times a year. Burn their program to the ground, but don't punish other programs that didn't harbor and enable a terrible human being for decades.
to all universities that sports programs are not that important when it comes to human rights issues. You will survive not seeing your teams on TV. What about the victims? Anyone care about their lives? Didn't think so!
I do care about the victims, obviously. Two thoughts:
- My post said that it was a pretty minor inconvenience to me, but there are others it would hurt a lot more. I assume part of Ohio University's recruiting pitch is talking about playing big names out of conference that a potential players friends and family can watch; making them play a game they'll lose without the benefit of being in the national spotlight isn't very fair to a university that apparently didn't enable a violent sex criminal. The fairer thing to do is cancel the game and allow OU to try and find another game against Michigan, OSU, whoever.
- Taking your post to a logical next step, let's slap a bowl ban on everyone this year. It can be a message to all universities that sports programs are not that important when it comes to human rights issues.
It can be argued that the Big Ten deserves some punishment. They have benefitted from PSU's success. Aside from PSU simply being one of their members, they also bought into the Paterno personality cult. They granted PSU an unfair scheduling advantage over UM and OSU to get them to join. They named their championship trophy after Paterno. That's pretty much the equivalent of erecting the statue, a tribute quite out of place for a current coach. The Big Ten can kick PSU out or stay associated with them and share a bit of their punishment, their choice. As far as their smaller non-conference foes, aren't they mostly in it for the guaranteed payday, not the TV exposure?
If Auburn got a tv ban would any of us think the SEC was being treated unfairly?
I cannot disagree with this more. What was the Big 10 supposed to have done differently? Everyone bought into the image of PSU and you never heard anything different for the last 20 years. We were all fooled but I have no idea how you see the conference at fault? Were any conference higher ups implicated in any way?
This is an embarassment for Penn State. Period.
Maybe if they had vetted PSU more carefully they would have spotted problems regarding institutional control of the football program. Maybe not. Buying into the image was a mistake, avoidable or not. Admitting PSU was the biggest decision the Big Ten had made since when, maybe its founding? Given what we know now, it's possible they could have done a much better job.
Giving PSU concessions, (byes before the OSU game the first two years, byes before the UM game the first four years) and putting their current coach's name on their most prestigious award were mistakes.
I couldn't disagree more about the embarrassment. I feel it myself and I think it's a pretty common emotion around the Big Ten. We've benefitted financially from having PSU in the conference. To some extent those seem like ill gotten gains. While I don't think any punishment should be aimed directly at the Big Ten, punishments aimed at PSU that also cause a little collateral pain to the Big Ten seem fair enough.
If the Big Ten decides to keep PSU will it be out of loyalty? Have they really earned that loyalty? Or will it be that in the long run Penn State brings in more revenue than any likely replacement? If the Big Ten makes that kind of decision based on money, some lost revenue and less television exposure are reasonable costs.
You think that the Big Ten should have known something 4 years before Tim Curley was made PSU's AD, 6 years before Spanier was made PSU president, and 6 years before Sandusky was investigated for anything?
The only person involved in the cover-up that was there at the time was Joe Pa and Sandusky. While Joe Pa was important he was viewed as a highly respectable guy. We tried to hire him in 68. Did joe take his program's status too seriously? Yes. That was obvious wen he demanded the byes, which should never have been allowed. However, demanding a competitive advantage in now way signaled that 6 years later there would be a cover-up that involved people who hadn't even joined PSU yet.
One could say that's worst than SMUs death penalty.
I don't think any program would get a TV ban these days.
Sports are becoming too big in this country.
An EB White essay published fifty years or so ago.
Sports are not too big in this country. Chart? Chart.
That's a total of about $25 billion per year. I copied and pasted from wikipedia. If it's wrong, I'm wrong. But I doubt it's off by anywhere near enough to make my point invalid.
What's my point? Well, do you know how much was spent on nasal spray and inhalers last year? About $35 billion. So unless you think that nasal spray and inhalers are getting too big for the country, sports are not getting too big for the country.
Also, this argument is Malthusian in the sense that it comes up every few years/days/minutes and every time it's just not so.
Sorry, but I'm reading a book that makes a Malthusian argument right now, so my head was primed for wall-banging frustration grrrrrrrrrrrrrr mode.
I would think if you were a Wisconsin fan you might be a little bit excited about all of these sanctions coming out against ohio state and penn state. They're pretty much guaranteed to walk into the big 10 title game this year.
Indiana begs to differ.
Why the sarcasm? Ther're putting together talented recuiting classes.
for a year or two is going to tend to look like a cop-out.
these sanctions are true does anybody think the Big Ten would kick them out of the conference?
because they would be a whole lot less valuable for at least 10 years.
Will be interesting to see how many questions are asked to coaches and players this week? Even though NCAA is moving fast to make this happen, the questions will go on all year and then, if there is a suspension, once the team returns to the field.
Wow. Just . . . wow.
Well to be fair, a lot of the reply's on that post were calling the OP an idiot
And try to get Pitt or Syracuse from going to the ACC.
While I do feel that punishing the school/program is appropriate, and justified, I feel badly for the kids on the team who'll suffer from this... I wonder if the coach will stay, or if he was aware of looming penalties in the future... Its also obvious from looking at USC that the most damaging penalty is the bowl ban, as it caused many current athletes to leave the program, and recruits to look elsewhere, while they have nearly pulled the #1 recruiting class with supposed "crippling" scholarship reductions.
It seems like some of the new leadership at PSU may be starting to make smart decisions. It appears they quickly went ahead and agreed to NCAA sanctions in close to record time. They also took the stupid statue down. At this point they have to start to move things along so they can begin to get past this. Fighting to save the football program and Paterno's reputation is pointless and unlikely to succeed. In the end they need to be concerned with a multi-billion dollar organization with 100,000 students and thousands of employees. The football program is really not that important when viewed from the perspective of the entire organization.
The leadership agreeing to sanctions that cripple the football program for a decade is a reasonable price to pay if it gets you closer to they day when "child sex scandal" is not the defining characteristic of your university. The next step is probably to fork over 100 million to quickly settle the lawsuits. Fighting any of this only drags out the scandal and does further damage to the school. One would hope the schools leadership has figured out.
You deserve more than +5 for this. Good perspective and I hope you are right.
I hope it eventually trickles down to the student/alumni body. Currently, a lot of them seem to see the new administration as the new enemy, who isn't willing ot stand up for their school. It's sick to read their comments. I was curious for a while, but now it's just gotten too out of hand.
dennisdoddcbs Penn State is about to become one of those patsies Joe played in the indy days -- if that. Column coming.
PSU needs to be kicked out of the B1G if the penalties are as harsh as some are suggesting. It will just drag down the whole confernece and lead to a lack of competative balance. And they deserve it.
My opinion on the proper punishment has somewhat changed after countless stories about Penn State (and I thank various commentators, including posters here for that). Although I originally wanted to see a "death penalty," I believe that may be unduly harse on the Happy Valley community generally. I do support scholarship reductions and a two year postseason ban, however.
My position has always been that the cover up of child rapes is just as much a football failing as institutional failing. In my opinion, it is almost impossible to separate the football program from the cover up of the child rapes. The only way to adequately punish the football program for permitting the culture is to penalize the program itself. The remaining three stooges will get punished criminally. There also will be hefty settlements to pay. However, Penn State could gladly pay the settlement tomorrow and pretend that nothing ever happened and that Camelot still exists.
The NCAA and college football fans generally should expect some baseline for ethical conduct. In my opinion, looking the other way with Penn State would basically be the antithesis of what amateur athletics should be all about.
It involved a competitive advantage. They knew that their football program would be seriously harmed in recruiting and fundraising if Sandusky's crimes came to light, so they covered them up.
I really don't care if it provided a competitive advantage or not. Just because a member institution follows rules with respect to recruiting doesn't mean that it should automatically be allowed to be part of the NCAA, or in Penn State's case, beyond NCAA punishment. Like most things in life, nothing should be considered a birth right rather than a privilege. There should be a baseline of ethics that is followed by all member institutions. And yes, I would say the same thing about Michigan if the shoe were on the other foot.
Years ago I was a law student and I was going through a tough time, and I starting drinking, hard. It wasn't intentional, it just kind of happened, but I had a couple of weeks where I was getting drunk way too often. The pressure of law school was getting to me and I was dealing with it in the worst way possible. One afternoon, when I was reasonably sober, I realized that I was losing my self control over this, and if I didn't find a way to get it back, there was a serious risk that something really ugly was going to happen. The awful fact was, at that moment in time at least, I couldn't handle my liquor.
So I gave up alcohol for a month. Stayed away from bars and parties. Concentrated on my studies. It was awkward, but I stuck with it. And it gave me time to deal with my problems and get my priorities straight.
Penn State is, if anything, even in a worse position than I was. I was afraid of something bad happening -- as it was I managed to avoid any serious legal or academic trouble. In Happy Valley, well, something awful happened, and it happened because Penn State's administration couldn't deal with the pressures and temptations of running a major college football program.
I doubt that the NCAA will impose the death penalty, and I'm not sure they should. I do think it would be in Penn State's best interest to suspend their football program for a year. It'll give them a year to focus on their academic programs, and to take stock of what went wrong and begin to undo the damage they have caused.
After a month, I had my head straightened out. I rejoined my friends (most of whom were reasonably sober people -- kinda like the Big Ten in that way.) and I could go out and have a couple beers without making an ass of myself. I had my head straightened out: I was a law student enjoying a few beers, not a boozehound who happened to be in law school.
After skipping a year of football, I think Penn State, top to bottom, will be more likely to think of itself as a college that sponsors a football team, rather than a college that was created by a football team.
That would be my advice to Penn State. Let it go for a year. Get your heads straightened out. Yeah, it'll be awkward, and your teams will suck in 2013 and 2014, but if the NCAA's sanctions are anything like what we've been led to expect they're bound to suck anyway. So let it go for a while. You can bring the team back when you've got your priorities straight and you can handle the pressures.
One of my law school buddies put it best: a little self-discipline goes a long way. It's time for Penn State to discipline itself.
but it's not possible now. I'm pretty sure their entire athletic department rests on the revenue of football. Cancelling that kills all other sports.
Also, what about the teams that play PSU? Do they get a free bye week? Maybe scramble and play anyone free? How does that play with the BCS computer?
No PSU football also hurts the B1G. What about revenue from the BTN?
Shutting down PSU helps nobody (not the victums). Letting current players go and schollie reductions are best. Bowl game ban also hurts the B1G.
Was it more fair for USC players to suffer penalties for things one person--Reggie Bush--did, even after he went to the NFL? Also given the fact that the coach, who is alleged to have turned a willful blind eye to what was going on, had also left for the NFL?
Were those sanctions more fair to the USC players who had nothing to do with it than the PSU ones would be?
I have spent half my life in universities, and never, in any capacity, have I seen such institutional corruption, misplaced priorities and downright contempt for the mission of the university as I have in this case. And it is all about the football program. The conspiracy and cover-up was, 100%, done to "safeguard" the reputation and sterling name of the athletic department's cash cow. And if the Freeh report is to be believed, it involved all 4 of the top officials with authority over the athletic department, football program staff and students involved in it. At least 4 innocent boys were raped after the decision to cover it up as well.
This is why the football team has to face sanctions. And yes, it is unfair to those who had nothing to do with it. But that doesn't make it any different from any other NCAA team sanctions. And in this case, at least, it is necessary to make it clear that this type of institutional and leadership failure cannot be tolerated, excused or be allowed to happen again.