spoiler alert: i linked this
People like the OP that insist on engaging in Rodriguez post mortum discussions need to revisit octal9's outstanding post on creating new threads: http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/creating-new-thread-heres-handy-flowchart
Read it, study it, learn it.
What's your policy for accepting Bolivian clients?
If points were on line, would you take the OP or no?
I'm essentially a Board-Appointed advocate. I only take a case when there is overwhelming public sentiment in favor of a second-chance. I do not undertake the representation without being fairly certain in the outcome. FuManBlue was my first client and it was so successful that I have the ability to be more discerning than your everyday public defender. In other words, the OP is SOL.
No clients since? That is really discerning.
I'll give the OP some help though:
Just trying to save your "valuable" time.
that has never read "the Decimated Defense".
for coming in way late (thread has been on repeat, dude) and replying to a post near the top just to be seen. In fact, you were replying to a post that did the exact same thing, so negging him as well.
Regardless of OP's post, I always neg for this type of reply-jacking
That really sucks, counselor. Since negs aren't really worth anything (or they are sometimes? I have no idea), seems like your caseload suddenly lightens considerably. Like being a defense attorney and suddenly jail isn't a thing anymore.
However, if negs and Bolivian are a possibility here, I'll take the OP as my client. He has had several quality posts in the past, and I think this one was more lighthearted than it seems. I've always seen him as a great fan and poster in the past. It's just one slip-up.
Also, as I recall, he's still a high-schooler, so he has more to learn. Not like the occasional blue hair that comes on here to blast the coaching and say they're withholding donations until a change is made, UNACCEPTABLE, etc.
You'll have an easy time with this case, him being a legal minor and all. Could be a good first case for you. Although, he clearly put a lot of thought into his post and, as such, will have a much harder time winning over the masses as FuManBlue did . . .
Yeah, but someone needs to be appointed his Legal Guardian before you can proceed.
While you're an advocate in cases that you feel you will win, I think I'm more of the court-appointee who has to take any case, no matter how hopeless. I might be able to work my way up to the right to choose clients, but my cupboard is bare (oh god, that's my own client, I think it's always too soon for that... welp, rookie mistake)
I'll defend OP with the best of my ability, but we might need to just take a plea bargain on this one. I advise my client to make a great big EDIT at the top, adding in a disclaimer.
Good, merciful people of this great Blognation of ours, the Go Blog of M, please take pity on this poor fan who only meant well. He will learn in time, but sending him to Bolivian will just make him a hardened, silent cynic like we have seen time and time again. I just need your consideration, ladies and gentlemen of the MGoJury.
edit: on second thought, we might be able to plea for insanity. It's come to my attention that the OP has a rare but increasingly prominent condition known as Hokeamania (see signature). I'm consulting with Psychiatrists on the matter and will discuss the matter as information comes through.
Sorry to be the one to have to tell you but your client is GUILTY. Just be glad that the bus to Bolivia is broken.
I think your business is slow because the negs don't count anymore. I'm fairly certain if they did Bolivia's population would have grown quite a bit since the board crashed.
The OP is not worthy to go to Bolivia.
The only people that were truly sent to Bolivia are OMGShirtless, FuMan and I. As far as I know Brian is the only one who can pwn us and send us to Bolivia.
My best advice for the OP:
Don’t be an idiot. I think to myself, would an idiot post this? If the answer is yes then I do not do that thing.
I don't need no Tommy Jefferson comin' in here and messing with my clients.
If you catch the reference, 10 points for Gryffindor. If not, google and get on that show's bandwagon asap plox
Just to make this thread better.
The Gryffindor joke makes this on topic. Also, the picture makes it on topic because obviously
We're all out of Bolivia!
you are a fucking idiot.
Brian, please bring the points system back in line soon.
We know that RR laid the blame squarely on the players. "Even Vince Lombardi couldn't do much with what we've got..."
If that's not putting 100% of the blame on the kids and absolving the coaches then I don't know what is.
So okay. Ask yourself this. If Gary Patterson and his staff or Greg Mattison and his staff had these EXACT same kids for the last 3 years, would the defensive performance have been EXACTLY the same?
I think everyone except the most ardent RR apologist would say no.
So, it WAS a coaching problem, at least to some extent. And yet we have never heard RR utter even the SLIGHTEST implication that maybe, just maybe, some of the blame rested on his shitty defensive staffing decisions.
The defense would have again been terrible in 2011 with RR's staff. This is why he was fired.
If the 2011 defense is terrible under the new staff THEN maybe RR will be proven correct and absolved.
The "bare cupboard" typically refers to the offensive talent anyway
And it also refers to any depth. Sure, those defensive players look good, but there was nobody behind them, especially in the secondary as we saw the past 2 years.
What about me?
I thought BG started in 2008.
Your logic is flawless because everyone knows that every highly rated recruit pans out. Bravo to you sir.
Actually, a few of those guys are in the NFL now and doing well.
In a backhanded way you just proved my point. Thanks!
Excuse me while I choke on this glock.
Yes, hiring Greg Robinson was a mistake. A bad mistake. It was a mistake made after Michigan, for reasons that have not yet become clear, failed to bring in Rich Rodriguez's first choice, Jeff Casteel.
Michigan wasn't willing to pay Casteel the money he made at WVU so...reasons unclear is clear for you.
that one of the reasons RR allegedly wanted out of WVa is that he couldn't pay the assistants what he wanted. Now, maybe it's just me, but if I have a problem in an existing job before I take a new job, I want to make sure the existing problem won't be an issue in the new job. If assistant's salaries were a major issue, then they should have been addressed in the initial negotiations. If Casteel was that important, Rodriguez should have been negotiating what he would pay Casteel in order to make him an offer he couldn't refuse.
The fact of the matter is that Jeff Casteel said yes to Rich Rodriguez and was preparing to move to Ann Arbor, in late 2007.
Then, Bill Stewart was named HC, and Casteel changed his mind. At that point, and then again at the close of the 2008 season, (and I say this with perfect 20-20 hindsight), a Michigan check for high six figures should have been written, with Jeff Casteel's name on it. He was making about 375k at WVU.
What we don't know -- at least what I don't know -- is what Bill Martin said and did at that time. What was said by Rodriguez, Casteel and Martin, and how much money was offered, I don't know, and I wish that I did. There is no doubt in my mind that Jeff Casteel was formally offered the Michigan job on three or more occasions. At the end of 2007, in early 2009, and again, in some form or fashion, in late 2010.
Ah, Michigan failed to bring in Casteel. So then did Michigan go and hire GERG?
How the fuck was Rodriguez going to show the world his Special Purpose when Michigan kept fucking with him like that?
Rich Rodriguez doesn't write checks for the Assistants on the coaching staff. The Michigan Athletic Department does.
And yes, if you are going to try to extract an extremely high-quality job applicant from a job where he is happy and secure with his family, you have to offer him a shitload of money. David Brandon recently acknowldeged that Michigan had done badly in that department in the past, and needed to change.
And no, none of the worthies whom I knew, who were ardent supporters of Rich Rodriguez were ever much in the mood to give Greg Robinson their unqualified support. Brian Cook questioned the GERG hiring from Day One. Nobody expected Robinson to be retained for 2011. I frankly didn't expect Robinson to be retained for 2010.
The good thing in all of this is that you've shown us your Special Purpose. As an ignorant prick.
I just want to lock in your ad hom attacks for posterity.
Man, this reaction is better than I could have dreamed it would be. I'll bite. Sure, maybe the athletic department didn't commit enough money to get Casteel - but how, exactly, do you know that this is what went down? Put another way, what would have been 'enough'? Are we sure that Casteel had a price that was within reason? Are we certain that Rich couldn't have done a better job getting Casteel to come work with him? Do we know exactly how Casteel felt about working with Rich?
Dismissing the (reasonable?) possibility that you are a close friend or confidant of Mr. Rodriguez, I'm guessing you don't really know the answer to these questions. Thus, it's a ridiculous little piece of massaging the truth to say that Michigan didn't bring Casteel in.
As for GERG, I'm not at all sure how the fact that you and Brian expressed misgivings about the hiring has fuck all to do with Rodriguez actually, uh, deciding to hire the man. I'd give you all the MGoShrutebucks in the world for being so prescient if I could, but I'm still not sure it would absolve Rich of responsibility for his disastrous staffing decision.
Finally, it would have been funnier to insult me with Special Purpose in a manner that actually reflected the usage of the phrase in The Jerk. I'll admit that I didn't do a great job of this either, but I thought that the vague image of penny-pinching, blue-haired adminstrator restraining Rodriguez from showing the world his dong was kinda funny. YMMV.
We got answers.
1. The overtures to Casteel in late '07 and early '09 are a matter of public record. As was Casteel's initial agreement to come to Ann Arbor. (When the shell-shocked Mountaineers thought that a whole new regime would replace the just-departed Rich Rodriguez & co.) Followed by Casteel's (perfectly reasonable) demurrer, saying essentially that if in fact he had the chance to stay in Morgantown and keep his daughters in school and keep his same job with even more autonomy under Stewart, he would do that and just stay in Morgantown.
2. I don't know what specific amounts Casteel might have been offered at any step of the way. Let's just agree that it "wasn't enough." I'm not the first to discuss this. Brian Cook was way ahead of me; noting that while Casteel's initial backing out in '07 might have been understandable, it was less understandable when in 2009, in the wake of Scott Schafer, we couldn't get Casteel with a new, determined, and very large offer. But I suspect (I never claimed to know) that we will someday find out that Bill Martin was only willing to pay Casteel on a traditional Michigan/Big Ten/Big East pay scale. David Brandon now knows -- he has said so -- that Michigan had made errors in that area. Anyway, the point that Brian Cook has already alluded to was; Yeah, we know Casteel turned us down once, then twice... what was he turning down? If he was making 375k at WVU, was Michigan offering 400k? Or was Michigan offering 800k?
3. Someday soon, somebody is going to be able to draw up a very simple, very interesting chart. Consisting of the contract-package numbers for each of Jeff Casteel, Scott Schafer, Greg Robinson and Greg Mattison, for the years 2006-2011. What I expect it to show, is that Michigan was essentially "cheap" until it had to pay for Greg Mattison. And that you get what you pay for.
4. You are wrong when you suggest: "Thus, it's a ridiculous little piece of massaging the truth to say that Michigan didn't bring Casteel in." No, that is a fact. Michigan didn't bring Jeff Casteel in. For whatever reason. I explicitly said that I didn't know all of the details, and that I'd like to get more information.
5. Greg Robinson. Nobody knew in early 2009 how bad things would be on defense under Greg Robinson. But then, I don't remember anybody, other than disgruntled Syracuse Orangemen, and Brian Cook, saying wtf? Rodriguez got him, I suspect, because he felt he just had to make a change from what is portrayed in the video that leads off this thread. I think I'd feel the need to make a change, based on that kind of sideline clusterfuck, too. Robinson had a pretty good-looking resume back then; where you and I appear to differ is that I think that Robinson turned from what seemed on paper to be a semi-reasonable selection, into a disaster. If Greg Robinson had been Rich Rodriguez's first choice, and a guy that he had demanded, and had asked Bill Martin to do anything in the whole wide world to get to come to Ann Arbor, I'd blame Rodriguez much more harshly. But Robinson was the third or fourth choice. And he now appears to have been a bargain-basement choice.
I've read this, and you still don't have anything but conjecture about why Casteel did not join the staff. Therefore, you're still applying your own best guess. But I'll play along: it may well have been that Michigan had to pay Casteel $800k to come here. To be honest, I'm not really sure he's worth that, but ok.
Still, ultimately, it's Rodriguez's job to hire a good staff. You want to let him off the hook because hey, a bunch of internet jagoffs powered by Google thought Robinson might be an okay hire too? Rodriguez was paid millions of dollars to know how the fuck to differentiate between a a guy who treads water with pro-level talent at Texas (albeit with beautiful hair) and a guy who really thought Ezeh was just about to turn it around midway through his fifth year. Furthermore, by all accounts the GERG hire was turned from bad to cataclysmic because Rodriguez (or Gibson, by proxy) decided to force the 3-3-5 down the old fella's throat. That's Rodriguez's responsibility. That ain't on Martin. Anyway, Jeff Casteel isn't the only fucking guy in CFB who can coordinate a defense. (Indeed, Mr. Scott Shafer seems to know a thing or two about defense, but he had to drag around the dead weight of Jay Hopson and Tony 3-3-5.) Hell, if Rodriguez loved the 3-3-5 so dearly, he could have hired Rocky Long, who was looking for work in 2009. Instead, Long was hired at SDSU, for what I'm guessing was a hell of a lot less than $400k.
Finally, what's lost in all of this is that it wasn't just Michigan who had to hire Mattison, though the numbers will come out on how much he's being paid. Dude was crystal clear that his enormous man crush on Hoke was a big part of the reason he came. I don't know whether he and Brady just love drinkin' beer and eating homemade pizza together or whether Brady's got incriminating photographs, but that doesn't really matter. Hoke closed the deal with what appears to be a great hire, bottom line. And if Mattison doesn't do a good job, that will be on Hoke too, and I'll be among the first to say that it turned out to be a bad move on Hoke's part.
Head Coach: responsible for coaching staff.
I like your style Brabbs. I'm giving you my MGoVillain endorsement and I'd like to donate to your campaign.
Not at all. I am suggesting that if Michigan made a cheap offer to Jeff Casteel, and thereby failed to get him, then that is a mistake. I assume that I am onto something in that regard, because David Brandon has very nearly said as much. Saying that Michigan's coaching salaries, particularly assistant coaching salaries, have been in the middle of the pack. And that would have to change. And true to his word, Brandon paid what it took to get an NFL Defensive Coordinator to make the lateral move to Ann Arbor. I presume that the number is very close to, or perhaps north of, a million dollars.
Indeed, the rumor that I very much like (and I shall patiently wait for proof) is the one wherein Brandon, in the late stages of the Rodriguez Administration, tried to respond to the Coach's plea that they make his guy Casteel the kind of offer that would move him to Ann Arbor, and that Brandon had funding up to $1m to offer Casteel. But that Casteel also wanted assurances that he'd last more than a year with Rodriguez at Michigan. It essentially forced Brandon to either 'double down' on Rodriguez, or to go in an all-new direction.
I think the hard, gutsy, rusky, smart move would have been to go with a continued Rodriguez offense and a Jeff Casteel defense in 2011. Brandon would have had to stand up to the media, the former M Letterwhiners, et cetera. I think it would have been fantastic; historic. Instead, Brandon went the safe, happy, low-risk, low-imagination route.
They earned their opinion.
"Lloyd Carr's University of Michigan."
Excuse me, but I'm extremely proud of that University of Michigan.
what the fuck are you talking about? did you play on the football team? if not then you did not go to lloyd carr's university of michigan
In debating whether to even justify this with an answer...it's a screwy enough thread already- why not.
Perhaps I have my head too full of tradition, honor, and loyalty to my school. But when I see "Lloyd Carr's University of Michigan," or comments like "Bo is dead," which have appeared frequently on this site, I find them offensive. I won't throw my university, my coaches, or my honor underneath a bus, dirty cleat, or the brown leather shoes I stood in as a student while singing the Victors. For any reason. And I certainly wouldn't do it to prove a point.
You stomp on Lloyd Carr, no matter what you're standing in, you stomp on the university. Period.
I'm not a fanatic, but I'm also not a casual fan. I have pride in my university. And Lloyd was my coach all five years I attended the University of Michigan. He's part of the institution, as I now am. And no, I never wore a cleat. Just old worn leather shoes. But it's my university, just as it is his, as it was Bo's and now is the next man's. And though Lloyd's shoes stood on grass and mine on concrete, make no mistake, we stood together. And I'm proud of that.
That's what I meant.
I really, really feel like it might be best for you and for others if you went ahead and switched the ol' college football allegiance over to another team. I'm sure Rodriguez will land on his feet in a year or two, so you might enjoy following his meteoric rise wherever that may be. In the meantime, maybe Boise State's offense will fulfill your craving for Football Rebellion.
Just, you know, a suggestion.
One more thing: I don't personally put much weight into the idea of Lloyd's alleged 'faction,' and I sure as hell don't believe that it had fuck-all to do with Rodriguez's firing, but if you do - if you think there was a battle for the soul of Schembechler Hall between Lloyd and Rodriguez - there's only one conclusion to draw.
a Rodriguez-Casteel team waxes the Michigan Wolverines.
Lloyd Carr is finished in the Michigan Athletic Department. And Braylon Edwards is on probation in two states and paying child support in two more.
You're the donkeys ass of the board tonight.
Sure seems like Lloyd effectively mobilized his minions to create a hostile atmosphere for Rodriguez, no? Is he finished or not?
Why don't you just go to bed and dream some gutsy, historic, delicious dreams about Rodriguez and Casteel wreaking terrible vengeance upon Michigan football.
First of all, letterwhiners may be more obnoxious than either O$U or Spartina, so congrats.
I never thought that you were opposed to the Mattison signing, though this isn't really the central issue.
I bet Mattison is making considerably less than a million per year, but I could be wrong. We'll find out. Also tangential.
You still haven't really addressed my suggestion that Rodriguez might bear at least some responsibility in the failure to sway Casteel; we may never know, but stuff like "the rumor I like" just goes to show how much of your argument is built upon the fantasy of what you want to believe happened, as opposed to any good evidence.
You're attaching some kind of moral, almost emotional valence to this whole issue, which may explain the aforementioned fantastic thinking. "Gutsy, risky, smart" (ok, maybe I can see tha-) "fantastic, historic" (... I'll give you a minute to clean up.) Personally, I'm more optimistic with Hoke as HC, Borges running the offense, and Mattison as DC than I would have been with Rodriguez and Casteel. It may have been 'gutsier' for DB to put all his chips in Rodriguez's basket, to continue the metaphor, but like many ZOMG BALLSY decisions, it might have been kinda stupid, too. I know the conventional wisdom round here is that Rodriguez had a high ceiling, that his schematic advantage might have pushed us past Tressel, where more traditional coaches will fail. I'm not so sure. The West Virginia resume is solid, but I think that the weakness of the Big East (only partially mitigated by two big bowl wins, IME) and the fortuitous combination of White and Slaton may be more important than we thought back in 2008. If Hoke can hire top-notch coordinators and recruit like hell (both of which have been suggested but certainly not proven), I'd say his ceiling - with a pro-style offense and defense - is actually higher.
Finally, I'd still like to hear your rationale for why Rodriguez ran Shafer out of town and couldn't find a plan B better than GERG, even supposing that the rumors you'd really like to believe about Casteel are true.
And the infamous video of a minor meltdown on the sideline during the OSU game in Columbus. And people wonder why Scott Schafer might have been "run out of town"?
The situation with Greg Robinson is complicated, because it is hard to set aside what we now know via hindsight. I don't defend Robinson. All that I say is that on paper, pre-hiring, he looked like a plausible candidate. Robinson was a former Head Coach, a former defensive coordinator and defensive position coach at many different levels, sometimes with success, sometimes not. He'd been part of some important programs; Texas Longhorns, the Chiefs, Jets, Broncos, etc.
Anyway, my point with Robinson was to say he clearly wasn't Rodriguez's first choice. And even the more discerning among the Rodriguez faithful (Brain Cook was the top of the class) questioned the Robinson hiring. What I say is that Rodriguez gets credit for having originally picked the best guy, but failing that choice, he made a plausible choice in Robinson. It turned out to have been the wrong choice, but there's no way that Robinson would have been coming back in any event.
There was a lot of good to be found on the 2010 Michigan football team; and what was bad, I think would have been substantially turned around in a more positive direction with Jeff Casteel coming in and doing a defensive housecleaning, with the full support and confidence of the Head Coach. Casteel would have had some better bodies to work with in 2011, than what Greg Robinson had in 2010, too.
I'd be delighted to take the sadly fictional bet of a Rodriguez-Casteel-coached Michigan team against a Hoke-Mattison-coached Michigan team. I wish there could be a way to see that bet settled; unfortunately it will just be a fiction.
You're still full of crazy. First, Shafer was successful before Michigan, and now he's successful again. By the end of the season, his authority over the defense had been undermined by Rodriguez/Gibson. Then Rodriguez fired him. Then Rodriguez hired GERG. GERG's Wikipedia page and NCAA team statistics are good points of reference for schmoes like you, me, and Brian Cook to pontificate about coaching hires. Top-level coaches, by contrast, need to look past a list of someone's prior jobs in order to make informed decisions. Rodriguez completely fucked the pooch by hiring GERG. Hell, even Brian Cook was able to read between the lines of what the internets turned up on GERG and say "this doesn't seem like such a good idea." Even if he was not his first choice, there were other choices out there.
Finally, your bald assertion that Casteel was "the best choice," and that Rodriguez should be given credit for trying to hire him only further confirms my sense that you are deep in the throes of sweaty, desperate manlove. Hire the defensive coordinator that you used to work with at WVU because then no other adjustments to scheme and staff would have to be made, then, failing that, hire a run-down, fresh-off-driving a program-into-the ground has-been (who really never was that much) and just go ahead and tell him to run the same scheme that Jeff used to run because this ain't your first rodeo and you had a lot of success doing things that way don't people remember?
That's some next-level, modern-era, MNC-contending shit right there.
First, Shafer was successful before Michigan, and now he's successful again. By the end of the season, his authority over the defense had been undermined by Rodriguez/Gibson. Then Rodriguez fired him. Then Rodriguez hired GERG.
Rodriguez "undermined" Robinson? Robinson worked for Rodriguez!
And you missed the part where Rodrigez "tried to hire Jeff Casteel" before hiring Greg Robinson.
Look, I didn't start this thread. This thread began by showing mildly embarassing footage of Michigan's sideline melting down (mostly Charles Stewart melting down) during the '08 OSU game. Most of the posters here were taking that video as stark evidence that Michigan's coaches were incompetent. Why they pinned that on Rodriguez, I don't exactly understand because that's not what Rodriguez did; he never called defensive signals. Scott Schafer did that. And Scott Schafer, not Rich Rodriguez, was in the middle of that huddle on the sidelines.
I didn't exactly say that Scott Schafer was incompetent, but I did say I am not at all surprised that an episode like that would be followed by a coaching change. All of the anti-Rodriguez haters say that is why they coldly and dispassionately feel that Rodriguez shoud be gone, after all. You point out that Schafer was a good DC before coming to Michigan and a good DC after leaving Michigan. I'd point out that Rich Rodriguez was a good coach before coming to Michigan and he'll be a good coach at his next stop.
As far as my admiration of Jeff Casteel, it too is based on his record. He was, clearly, Rich Rodriguez's first choice. He has had a mostly superb record every year for the last five years. WVU has gotten progressively stronger on defense throughout his tenure. Everybody seems to know what a good DC Casteel is, and he's gotten lots of other offers. The notion that Jeff Casteel is a highly desirable DC candidate is hardly unique.
Menawhile, all that I have been doing is logically and carefully defending Rich Rodriguez. It clearly was not an easy decision for Brandon to fire Rodriguez. For all of the reasons that I have been pointing out.
You seem to want me to jump enthusiastically on the Brady Hoke Bandwagon, and that part and parcel of that enterprise requires all of us to throw all memory of Rich Rodriguez under that wagon. And I won't do that. I truly don't care what kinds of fans all of you are, or what sort of fan you think I am.
before we can ask why they failed to bring rr's first choice, they must fir asnwer why they brought rr to michigan.
Dude. If someone needs to explain to you why RR was a damn good choice in 2007, then...aww, forget it. Every time you comment I want to punch myself in the face. And it's only been what, 2 days? Just stop or go to MLive or Rivals or something.
"Punch myself in the face..." We are a sorry bunch, aren't we?
And loving the pretentious Oscar Wilde in the same sentence as Steve Spurrier.
This is becoming a fantastic thread...
I mean, there may have been some hyperbole on my part there. Or just . . . I'm not even sure after having read the thread all the way through. Perhaps a desire for self-inflicted pain to take my mind off of the OP.
Or, I guess I could've just, you know, closed my browser.
Glad I didn't. I reached a level beyond pain that became extremely entertaining. :)
Your argument is flawed or at least has holes because a defense even with good players wil suffer when you have the horrific type of offense we put on the field that year. Just go look at the numbers (T.O.P) and it's staggering.
Adapt to their personnel. Rich Rod failed to do so his first year. Much like Bill Calahan at Nebraska, he tried ot fit square peg, into the proverbial round hole. While his argument does have holes, that 08 team, should have been no where near as bad, as it wound up being. That was an 8-9 win team at worst, who Rich Rod turned in to an admitigated disaster.
The Casteel argument is a joke, it has nothing to do, with getting someone who knows how to run the scheme. The same issues would have still ben prevelent. The 3-3-5, has been shown time and time again, not to work in this conference, where teams can run the ball effectively.
it would be exciting to see if you or the OP would reach Bolivia faster. I might buy popcorn.
He's got a head start, so it isn't fair. The OP has a lot more points he can afford to lose.
Don't take my points away?
has it been shown, "time and time again" that it doesn't work in the B10? Any defense can work with good coaching and good personnel. Using last years M team as an example does nothing to even come close to backing your point. That is an opinion without any foundation whatsoever.
And you honestly, truly believe that the 08 team was "an 8-9 win team at worst?" So with no offensive line and Threet as QB running a pro-style offense, you believe we could have won 8 games minimum? If you really believe that you have disqualified yourself from further attention. Look, there is a legitimate argument (that I disagree with) to be made that the offensive scheme should have been more gradually shifted. But there is no legitimate argument to be made that with that offensive persinnel we could have won 8 games.
"an admitigated disaster"
A conceded calamity?
A lot of you are very unhappy people.
Here's some unsolicited advice (which is the worst kind): Quit while you're behind. You may not be able to accumulate negative points, but your username reputation is still on the line.
"username reputation" ......hahaha
hey, friend, if your "username reputation" gets fucked and you go to bolivia or whatever and it's tearing you up.... just make a new one.....they're free.
Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with me, you flash a piece on this board, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."
Eight year olds, dude.
I wish people would stop admitigating all over the place. I am running low on paper towels.
Did I admitigate on your rug, Mr. Lebowski?
How often has the 3-3-5 been used in the B 10?
Please support your claim that "[t]he 3-3-5, has been shown time and time again, not to work in this conference. . . ."
Well I know that we sure showed it time and time again.
There's no question that it was unsuccessful at M the last 2 years. That doesn't prove that it can't be successful with a DC who knows how to implement it and who has even average LBs.
I was looking for examples of teams that had the personnel and coaching to actually see how it would hold up. You know, like a TCU.
Can you show us where the 3-3-5 has worked in the big ten?
So what you are saying is that Rich Rod should have done on offense what he made the defense do? Which would be to run a scheme they have no idea how to run. Well it worked for the defense so why not right?
Also, What other teams have tried to run the 3-3 as a base defense in this conference?
So wait, he actually had a square peg, and was trying to put it in some philosophical round hole? No wonder he never fit in.
Nick Sheridan and Steven Threet were the QBs, only 1 OL had ever played, and the skill position players were ALL new. Even if Lloyd Carr had stayed and had the exact same roster RR did, it STILL would have looked like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. When you're not talented, you're not talented, no matter what system you run.
Thank god you did this detailed research for us. Now we can finally have a real discussion about this topic for the first time.
Ah, finally the snark. Just what this thread was missing.
that defense had talent but the fact the offense was so bad and was on the field for 2 min at the time, the d was put into terrible situations where they could pretty much only fail. I will say this. That d actually won a game with pretty much no help from the offense ( wisconsin) if i remember right that michigan only had like 200 yards of offense or something like that with -7 passing yards in the first half ( 2 failed bubble screens) but that defense had some solid talent. I feel like if thats the 08 roster wouldn't warren be a sophomore?
Look at that video.
I'd either forgotten about that or rationalized that away a long time ago. But now, looking back on the last 3 years of EPIC FAIL, I think that's probably the most damning thing I've seen to date on what an incompetent mess RR created on defense.
You're so right. I've never once heard of football players and coaches losing their temper on the sidelines and yelling at each other. Well, I mean now that the video has been posted, I have heard of it. Prior to that point, I'm pretty sure it had never happened before, and it has never happened since.
omg you're so funny i just can't get enough of how ironic your post is. It's like you're writing something and you know its not true and thats why it's so funny.
:( :( :( :( :(
But I love how well you stay in character.
I like to think of you as a Mr. Roger's type. Who's just such a damn good actor.
I do enjoy a good cardigan.....
Is that JIF PB!!!!! God I'm hungry.
Dude, some of us have peanut allergies. Be more careful with that sh-t!
Stars out of high school have little value when talking about seniors.
funny how lots of people say this yet still freak out over recruit rankings etc. around signing day.
Do we really think that high school star ratings are the best way to evaluate Junior and Senior college talent?
Ha. We said the same thing at the exact same time. Weird.
will this never end. Am I watching the fucking end of Lamb Chop's play along? Please explain why you thought this was necessary. Then walk in front of a truck
stars are a guide to how good a player might be. In general speaking terms, stars are a very good gauge. But you can't just throw stars down and expect a good defense. It fails to mention that the previous two years saw the subtraction of literally the entire starting defense outside of Terrance Taylor. Yes, there was bad coaching, but the argument that "This is Michigan" doesn't fly, and it seems like that's what you're arguing here.
You are also completely neglecting the offense. Do you know many starters returned that year? I'll give you a hint. It's less than 2.
Fact: It's not a myth.
There's a word for this sort of thing:
I bet I can eat 10 grilled cheese sandwiches in one sitting. Who has the balls to bet against me?
What kind of bread and cheese? That's crucial info here.
Because I'm a patriot. Two slices per sandwich. Generic wheat bread, well buttered on both sides.
Place your bets, bitches!
I have 237 MGoPoints that say "YOU CAN DO IT!"
Anyone could do that. I want to see 10 GC sammies with Cinnabuns for bread and a block of swiss in the middle.
But only because there isn't a Cinnabuns nearby. Otherwise I would wreck that shit.
If you can eat one slice of American cheese, you're a better man than me. Got to be provolone, cheddar, of mozzarelle for me to do anything other than choke one down and woofing 10 double slicers wouldn't be an option. Got to take the under here.
And you claim to be a patriot.
Ciabatta and muenster.
That makes for some serious chewing if its an eating contest. Kinda like making an Iron Man contest more interesting by tying weights to the ankles of the swimmers.
Is this post seriously necessary? Move on.
Do an analysis of the 2008 offense and you will see that your so called "myth" was actually the stone cold truth.
The argument that the cupboard was bare was NOT just on defense. In fact, in my view, the cupboard was even more bare on offense than defense. In fact, I would argue that the horrendous offensive performances often times led to horrible defensive performances (turnovers, 3 and outs, etc.)
Also, what was our defensive depth like in 2008? That would be interesting to see...
Newsflash - President Lincoln has been shot!
Yea, but how was the play?
It ended with a BANG.
The ability to negbomb people CANNOT come back soon enough.
You can, in fact, do that right now. It's just in it's original form.
How the hell did he get an upvote?
I'm thinking it was Great Molk or Rah Glue (if you catch my drift).
Was just about to post the same thing. He has 9 now :/
Maybe it was self inflicted.
Where were all those seniors and great guys ready to take over in 2009? 2010? Did you seriously think it all through before you thought about hitting enter, or did you just have a fuck it moment where you decided to stir up a controversy that didnt even exist?
Look at overall depth. You'll see the defense was good in 2008 but thin. The offense was non-existent.
RR brought the offense back to respectability, but the thin depth at defense in 2008 was not addressed in time, and ultimately led to what we saw last year.
You should be proud of yourself. I hope it was you, that you rewarded yourself with an upvote. That would be the icing on the cake.
Profits must be down, since you can't get any new Bolivian clients, no?
I'm a Board-Appointed advocate and, as such, I take all matters on a pro bono basis. No payment occurs, except maybe some expense reimbursement. I only do it out of the goodness of my heart and my desire to give something back to the MGoCommunity. It'll be fun to see if the point system all of a sudden kicks into action and tabulates all of the votes from the past few weeks. That would be awesome.
I agree with your decision not to represent the OP. I know that under our great legal system, every accused is entitled to a defense, but sometimes you just have to look the other way to allow justice to take its course!
If all of our "free" neg-banging suddenly counted, I'd go broke faster than the clowns on the next bus to Bolivia.
When Michigan airports stop serving destinations in Bolivia.
They hate us for our freedoms; freedoms from repercussions and one-way tickets and such.
In every which way. I don't have time to itemize.
Damn that video...DAMN IT TO HELL!!!
Oh and you suck
Your sig link actually supplied some useful football information for me in this thread. Considering the OP's start, that is a pretty amazing accomplishment. Kudos.
If I remember correctly the defense was the only reason we were in a couple games that year. When you have an offense that basically does nothing but 3 and outs all game long it is pretty hard for the defense to make stops all the time.
And we may have had some good recruits starting but did we have anyone behind them. The secondary and linebackers the last 2 seasons makes me think we didn't.
Who the fuck is "Donnavon" Warren?
was a fashion designer I think...
He did a great job covering that Elizabeth Smart case.
Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid
Should I bite? Why not? :)
"I couldn't remember most of the guys we had on defense in 2008, so I went and looked them up and what they were rated when they were being recruited."
That was your first problem. For a guy with so many points, you haven't learned much here, have you?
Let's see what the offense looked like for most of that year (rating, years as a starter)
WR: Matthews, 4-star, ONE
WR: Odoms, 3-star, ZERO
WR: Stonum/Clemens, 4-star, ZERO
TE: Koger, 3-star, ZERO
T: Ortman, 3-star, ZERO
G: Schilling, 5-star, ONE
C: Molk, 3-star, ZERO
G: Ferrara, 3-star, ZERO
T: McAvoy, 3-star, ZERO
QB: Threet, 4-star (He MUST be good!!!), ZERO
RB: Minor, 4-star, ZERO
How many starters you see there, 'x?
- - -
Maybe you just posted this as a joke. In that case, well done!
I did kind of get the feeling that the OP was Muah-hahaha-ing on the other end of the keyboard....this is one of those situations where the OP is either so smart he convinces us he's an idiot by posting ridiculousness, ORRRR he's just an idiot.
I'll side with Occam and give 100-1 odds for the former.
Like Murphy, he was an optimist.
IIRC, the starters along the line in 2008 were Ortmann, McAvoy/Ferrara, Molk, Moosman, and Schilling (from L to R).
Your point still stands, but Moosman was a better lineman than McAvoy/Ferrara.
What I find interesting is that Brady Hoke will have to play that hand for another year or so, depending on how you view the '08 class.
5th-year seniors next year are all Lloyd guys. On the plus side, there are a few good ones (Molk, RVB, etc.). On the minus side, well ...
Look at '08, too. More than half of that class should be considered Lloyd's. Plus side? Mike Martin, obviously. There are some minuses.
- - -
Here's $5 that the whole @#$%ing thing will be blamed on RichRod, just like some of the senile Old Blues have blamed him for the Appalachian State loss.
I heard some elderly gentlemen discussing the struggling housing market and they all agreed that the blame falls squarely on Rodriguez's shoulders. Anything to avoid looking at themselves and their shortcomings as fans . . .
You are the smartest, most amazing judge of football talent ever. And to couple that with such impermiable logic is truly amazing. Then throw in the creativity as well. Congrats.
Sarcasm and snark all rolled into one. +1
That is all.
I love how the OP overlooked Brandon Graham, then edited him in after the fact but didn't pull back one of the starters.
Carr going 1-5 against the Vest is all the proof needed that the cupboard was bare. It doesn't matter If it was flaws in recruiting or flaws in player development. Enjoy continuing to suck at Life!!
I'll point out that RR was 0-3 against OSU if that makes them feel better.
If preformance against tuos is the gauge, then why are people talking about how rr left hoke a loaded team? judging by just those games the cupboard is more bare now than it has ever been
Is just a short trip for you to...
please take it down, please take it down.
I haven't seen a neg-bomb this hardcore in a while. That's a special kind of fail.
i don't think the site is recording votes in overall point tally.
No but it's still funny to see tangible evidence of the level of idiocracy of the OP and the fact that everybody still clicks on the down button in the hopes that he'll get negged back to the third world.
I can see this turning into that episode of family guy with Norm McDonald where Peter injurs Death so the rules of death don't apply and everyone starts doing crazy things because they can.
You mean the rules of Neg don't apply?!
In either case the kids from Dawson's creek need to pay.
Did you change your username?
No, I just am realatively new to the site and have only recently started participating (as opposed to just reading) on the boards. I follow mainly for the main-page educational content. A lot of the guys like Brian and the Mathlete have taught me a lot in the last few months.
Tactical Neg press > to use.
I think we've spent enough time on this. Let's move on. I have several suggestions:
As I see it, none of these topics has been discussed to my satisfaction. I hope someone starts a new thread about each and every one.
Duuuuuuuuude! You forgot:
6. ALL of RR recruits were midgets, meaning they were all under 5'8" _and_ 180 pounds, even the defensive linemen. They were fast, though! Needless to say, they got pushed around during the Big Ten schedule. Stupid Rodriguez!
7. RR ran an offense (the spread) that is inferior to the best offense of all time, the PRO-style offense. It's the type of offense that is used in PRO football and is, therefore, a blessed offense.
6. ALL of RR recruits were midgets, meaning they were all under 5'8" _and_ 180 pounds, even the defensive linemen, and they were all dread-headed thugs from Florida instead of good, hardy, midwestern boys who drink their milk and walk Mama to church every morning and have haircuts you can set your watch to, like Johnny Unitas. They were fast, though! Needless to say, they got pushed around during the Big Ten schedule. Stupid Rodriguez!
Meaningful contribution right now, considering:
The coach that was here in 2008 has already been fired AND it was 3 years ago AND you really did an intensive breakdown of the factors that led to this AND it's funny you chose, of all things that are soooo easy criticize from 2008, our D to be the scapegoat for our terrible season.
I agree with the poster somewhere above who says our D pretty much won the Wisconsin game for us.
Rich Rod posts make me feel like Hamlet.
"O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd
His canon 'gainst self-slaughter!"
There are far too many pretentious assholes on this site, and the responses to this show it. That's a shame as well, because normally, I'm a fan of pretentious assholes (see Steve Spurrier, and Oscar Wilde). If every blind person in the world, gained a portion of their eye sight back, every time some bashed an opinion as not worth their time, we'd solve blindness in a month. I mean for fucks sake, are you guys serious? I need to open up a site, consisting solely of Images, that people can post lettering over. Some of you guys, would put my kids through Ivy league schools. All I'm saying, is stop acting like obnoxious Ohio State fans.
All I'm saying, is stop acting like obnoxious Ohio State fans.
Says the guy who:
1) Uses terrible grammar
2) Thinks the 2008 team was "8-9 win team at worst"
3) Is a "fan of pretentious assholes"
4) Thinks "admitigated" is a word
5) Thinks the Big Ten is the only conference with teams that run the ball effectively.
6) Attributes a Frank Sinatra quote* in his signature to the much less cool Dean Martin.
Don't let Go Blue Eyes see you.
It's neither of theirs, it was originally said by Joey Bishop in his New York act, to liven up the audience. Frank said it, Dean said it. You'll find several sites, who will credit all 3 of them, at one or another time, with saying it. But thanks for the research, it's rare I get to talk about the rat pack.
1.) I spelled a word wrong, that is hardly ever in anyones vocabulary. Forgive me, that makes me an idiot I suppose.
2.) I'm not the only one who thinks that, and it's hardly an opinion to insult anyone over.
3.) You should work for Karl Rove
4.) I like how you spoke about grammar in two spots, when I only spelled a single word wrong. So, with that being said, are you going to say, you've never spelled a single word wrong on this board? Because I guarantee you have.
5.) When did I say the Big Ten is the only conference that can run the ball well?
Angry people, who talk a lot behind computers.That wouldn't even stand in Bolivia.
I find it hilarious to watch people wallow in ignorance when said ignorance is easily cured by a google search.
I imagine there are several things wrong with you, that could be easily solved by a google search.
Please enlighten me, Heminway. By the way, there should've been a comma after apparently. Also, grammar stands by it self, it doesn't need to be attributed to someone else.
This is getting funnier by the minute; don't stop.
Let me do a Google search to see how to combat your latest post.
::Does Google search::
Nothing to my liking, although I did find a great story about men on internet forums, using celebrity heads in their pictures.
He's the guy that wrote "A Farwell To Arms" and "The Sun Also Ries", yes?
By the way, there should've been a comma after apparently. Also, grammar stands by it self, it doesn't need to be attributed to someone else.
What I've got.
ALERT! This is as close to an "emo whine" post as it gets. I demand justice. To Bolivian you should go! Jackass.
I don't think your kids are getting into an Ivy League school, even if you do have the money for it.
Now what's that you were saying about posters here being assholes? :P
Has Brian given us an up-to-date ETA on voting's back online?
I really hope, you speak the same way, you write. I know, a guy from home, who speaks like this, and everything he says, is funny to hear.
I'll admit I'm a sarcastic and unforgiving asshole but I have to disagree with your assessment of the general level of pretense on this board. While we may be message board etiquette hounds, meme snobs, or ride the occasional poster out of town on a rail, we don't ask for much:
If you want to start a thread, take some time to think your argument through and decide whether it is something a. new and interesting and b. you can back with data, anecdotal evidence, or a link to something that enriches your post.
The reason this type of Michigan fan loiters around MGoBlog is because of the quality of content and the general ignorance/reactiveness/inaccuracies/ridiculousness of other online Michigan sports communities. If you want to hang out with the OP in Bolivia and debate a meme that was played-out two years ago, I suggest visiting espn.com, Yahoo! sports, cbssports.com, etc. What I don't suggest is walking into the local watering hole and calling all the regulars a bunch of pretentious assholes.
If stupid, tired, repetitive themes weren't posted over and over, you wouldn't see reactions like this. Also, if you don't want to see these reactions, check out the quality of responses on a Michigan message board, oh, say, anywhere else on the internet....
I have no problem getting corrected on my grammar. I'm an Economics major that was always better at math. If I had to guess, I would wager most of the people bashing me right now are terrible at math. Classless as they may be it's always interesting to see people attack like wolves when they see something they can gang up on. That to me speaks of a persons character or lack there of.
You call out the users of this site as being pretentious assholes and then talk about their lack of character...
Thank you for posting something reasonable. I don't like people who constantly bash other people, it's something I have always hated. I think free and open discussion is vital for the health and welfare of this site, which is so awesome. If I ofended anyone I do apologize, I'm generally a very nice guy. Again, I just hate always seeing others put down for an opinion on a sports topic. I'm new ot the site and I will claim forum ignorance, because apparently bashing ideas is quite common. It may be my idealistic nature but I just hate when people get attacked by a large group of people. If you constantly put someone down for haing ideas "inferior" to yours, you deserve to be called a pretentious asshole, because that's how you're acting.
you're probably wrong.
See, a large chunk of users on this board are Michigan students or alumni. Here at Michigan, most students need to be at least decent at math. You're either grasping at straws to make yourself feel better or your head is so inflated that not only are you convinced of your righteousness, but that you're better than your critics.
We aren't "ganging up" on you because you're good at math and we're not, even if that WAS true. You're getting destroyed because you made your sad delusions into a public comment.
I mean it in love. were true.
Edit: Haha- I wondered if I'd get negged for that...I was being playful since the mood had gotten so critical. Just so I'm not being a douche and actually slightly helpful, was is for past tense, were is for a possibility, whether now or in the future.
Where did I say you were ganging up on me because I was good at math? Not trying to upset anyone, I just want to know where I said that. My sole first post on this thread, was to defend the man's right to say what he did. You also have a right to say what you will but as a Michigan student/alum, I would hope you would hold yourself to a higher standard. Having had to work in Ohio for so long, I saw how angry and obnoxious OSU fans are. I just always held our fan base in higher regard, that was always capable of holding civil conversation.
Before I'm called an "emo" again for such a post, I served my country for years as an Officer in the US Army, "emo" isn't an attribute I've ever had. Defending others however, will always be an attribute I've had. Again, in real life I'm certain 98% of you aren't "pretentious assholes" but when people get treated like they're ignorant for something they've said, it comes off as pretentious.
but when people get treated like they're ignorant for something they've said, it comes off as pretentious.
Even if it's accurate? The OP made a ridiculous claim based on something that's been proven time and time again ON THIS BOARD to be inaccurate and borderline irrelevant. The OP is clearly not a newcomer, judging by his points. He should know better than to start a useless thread, let alone make possibly the weakest argument in defense of his claim.
Why are we out of line for pointing this out? If we're "pretentious assholes" for holding this board to higher standards than MLive, then leave. You won't be missed.
His argument has several holes, the rankings of the players isn't as important when over time they've proven to not be worthy of it. The only reason I replied, is when comments saying he should "never post again" or "delete this shit" started to appear. Now I agree the team would have been better had Rich Rod tried to scheme on offfense with the talent he had. But, I applaud Rich rod for installing his offense, under intense pressure to work with what he had. I'm not a Rodriguez basher, I did pull for his removal of this job though. I just felt that there was too great a divide in the Michigan base to be successful. I think he's a good man/innovative coach who just got caught in an unfortunate situation.
I have my own opinions on the 3-3-5, they aren't yours they are mine. The jury is probably still out on the 3-3-5. Boise and TCU run it and ran it well but one has to question how effective it would be against superior talent on a consistent basis. We can't answer that, because no major program runs a base 3-3-5.
Running ANY scheme against superior talent probably won't be very effective.
I'll trust Magnus on this because he's an actual coach, and he makes sense...any scheme can work at any level given the proper personnel and approach. 3-3-5 is just a formation...nothing more. San Diego State, Hoke's freaking former job, ran a 3-3-5 last year. TCU held off Wisconsin's monster running attack well enough to win the Rose Bowl.
Schemes are incredibly overrated. Personnel has a significantly higher impact on the quality of a team.
A couple of people posted things like "delete this shit" and now we're all pretentious assholes? That was really worth writing a whiny post?
he says that it isn't scheme that wins games, it's the execution of said scheme.
That being said, I think the 3-3-5 WOULD have worked...had Casteel been hired. You get someone who knows the scheme, can teach it, and has the players to run it, it will work.
The 3-3-5 is a formation that requires talent that Michigan did not have and that Rodriguez, for the most part, did not recruit. Any scheme on either side of the ball looks like sh*t if you don't have the talent to run it.
Develop? Due to attrition/getting kicked off team...no.
Fair statement. It did seem like the average stay on the team was about 15 minutes sometimes.....hard to develop players when they either won't or can't stay for various reasons.
Your free to never read this site, no one is forcing you to do so. If were all a bunch of assholes then leave, pretty simple.
"If every blind person in the world, gained a portion of their eye sight back, every time some bashed an opinion as not worth their time, we'd solve blindness in a month"
a) You've got some medical research experience, don't you?
c) Thanks for playing. No, really. You've made everyone's day.
But I love this:
"I'm a fan of pretentious assholes (see Steve Spurrier and Oscar Wilde)."
I absolutely love that. :)
I guess that, if it's me, the object lesson anyone should draw from these exchanges is this - the Mountaineer is dead, long live the Mountaineer. The reasons for either keeping or canning RR have been analyzed to death and conclusions have been drawn. Do we really need to revisit this about once every 36 hours or so?
Jesus Christ, man. Can we not get through a single fucking day without dragging RR through the mud?
You are aware that this supposed AWESOME defense was coached by Scott Shafer? the very same Scott Shafer who happens to be the DC behind the 5th best overall defense in college football this year?
Maybe, just maybe these kids quit on their coach. Maybe the upperclassmen were being coddled by the old regime and the players mentioned here didn't like having that taken away from them when they wen't years trying to earn it.
OP - you have to learn about team chemistry and leadership changes before just go blasting somebody.
You left out an even more likely possibility: consistently poor defensive position coaching and a scheme pushed from the top down that didn't work.
Forcing me to log in, just to neg...what a shame.
My ability to post comments is back.... and just in time to mention this:
I love you, Blue in South Bend. /gay
P.S. Nothing like a good FAIL post to bring the MGoVeterans out of their respective slumbers.
Looks like you figured out the work IE posting problem?
Ahhh, the happy days of being able to post at work on Rodriguez coaching change topics is back. Wait, those were not enjoyable times at all. WTF is going on here?
if the cupboard was bare in 08, the only thing that is important is that it isn't now. Thanks Coach Rod.
I hope all these negs get implimented once Brian restores the site back up. Some people deserve punishment
massive amounts of points exchanging hands.
I think some of the negs have been given out quite liberally because they don't affect your own points.
In this case I'd sacrifice any and all of my points for my neg to count.
when/if they do come back and retroactively add or subtract...
here's a few more for ya... +1
If they all implement at once the site may crash again.
Desmond Howard vs Phil Simms. Who ya got?
He was talking about the offence with Nick Sheridan as your starting quarterback. If that isn't bare, I don't know what is.
Amazing work, UMxWolverines. I'm glad we have someone like you with the sense and courage to write a few paragraphs and list our highly regarded recruits to disprove the lies propagated by Mispogon's in-depth analysis of the "Decimated Defense" and all of the statistical models of what went wrong the past few seasons.
Well done, you're hired.
This a fresh take on the subject and I'm very interested in hearing more but I have to interrupt you right now because OH GOD THE HINDENBURG!!
Best. Handle. Ever.
...when MGoBlog returns to MGoBlog normalcy. And we stop rehashing old arguments about RR. Was the "cupboard bare"? Some parts yes. Some parts no. Some parts "it doesn't matter". And now, add to that "RR is fired. Move on"
Fuck bare cupboards. I prefer my cupboards with copious amounts of foodstuffs plz.
As such, I move to banish the words "bare" and "cupboard" in conjunction with one another henceforth on this site. Everytime I see the term I cringe, not because it isn't true, but because it's one of the most overdiscussed topics in the last 3 years. May they burn in hell forever.
this thread was dumb in 2008
it has not gotten any less dumb
Because players always live up to their recruiting rankings.....
Thanks for not digging in your heels about what Rodriguez did or didn't do to keep the impact offensive talent with eligibility.
I don't want the site to crash again like during the coaching search.
Nate Volk, honest question. When you post your garbage as usual and someone blows said post apart you disappear? I don't think i've ever once seen you respond to someone who's responded to you? Like your OP post yesterday about RR being on Cowherd, you basically opened up the flood gates for a massive argument to break out (which it did) and where were you? Oh, you said "i gotta go". You are spineless, you post garbage everytime you post, and you were annoying as hell with your Jim Harbaugh bullshit. Im happy we didn't hire JH just because you wanted him so badly and seemed so confident this was his dream job. If I only could have seen your face when you found out he wasn't coming, must have been the worst day of your life.
I don't hate anyone, i've never met you, don't know you. But if I ever did I know I wouldn't like you and would probably fight you. You suck, I hate you Nate Volk!
I feel like a lot of the content on this blog over the last three years speaks directly to your comment there, including about 100,000 words from me on the subject.
About 99 percent of cupboard talk refers to this:
Defensively, it's the cupboard containing the next generation that was being referred to. Defensive back was especially left in atrocious shape. As Brian noted at the intro to my first DD article, in 2009:
Here are the members of the secondary in the recruiting classes that comprise this year's team:
2005: None. (Harrison, Sears, Richards all gone.)
2006: None. (Mouton, Brown moved to LB.)
2007: Warren, Woolfolk, Williams, Rogers. (Chambers gone.)
2008: JT Floyd (Smith moved to LB, Cissoko is gone.)
I bolded the guys left by Lloyd who were able to contribute a minimum of one non-soul-crushing season in the defensive backfield (including safety) after 2008. In '08 you add a final year of Trent (who admittedly didn't give his all for RR), whatever you could wring out of Harrison, and Charles Stewart, a vintage Michigan State defensive back who like most Michigan State defensive backs was beaten soundly and repeatedly by white receivers named "White."
Do the same for Linebacker:
2005: None. (Logan burned RS, special teamer)
2006: Mouton, Brown (Patilla, Mixon gone, B.Graham to DE)
2007: Herron (Panter, Evans gone)
2008: Demens, Fitzgerald (B.Smith, Hill, Witherspoon gone)
At linebacker, I blame RR and GERG for the regression/lack of development for Mouton and Ezeh, but part of the reason there wasn't another option to Ezeh for his whole career is that when faced with upcoming linebacker armageddon all Lloyd got was a JUCO and two flier recruits. Herron and Marrell Evans were sign-and-hopes: Evans played some but was worse than Mouton, and when not injured Herron is an effective spell for Roh but not much more. Mixon left before RR's time. Patilla's injury was nobody's fault. Hill was an RR recruit who showed up on campus and then left, and Witherspoon was Lloyd's version of Demar Dorsey's story. Brandon Smith moved from safety then left the team mid-'09. Ultimately, it was obvious in 2007 that linebacker was, at best, going to be populated with position switchers and freshman, since the only functional LBs recruited in four years were brought in as safeties.
On the defensive line, even though attrition was already high, they were doing their job: Graham through 2009, RVB and Martin through 2011, and a spattering of 3-/low-4 stars (Banks, Sagesse, Patterson, Woods, Ferrara, Kates, Helmuth, German, Butler, McLaurin, McKinney, Walton) from whom you could reasonably expect some depth, plus one year left of Jamison, Taylor and Will Johnson - though you have to give RR and Barwis credit for those last two and Graham making huge strides after shedding pizza weight.
Last time we're going over that. From now on, you're responsible for knowing the material that has already been covered.
And one more thing, look at the number of seniors in this year's class. Jebus! America has a huge math problem. This idiocracy is not sustainable.
You must not watch much cable news.
Dang ! ... Misopogon brought facts to the contest.....hope it helps, doubt it.
There will be a quiz on this material at the end of the thread.
I feel like I'm not being seen at the top of the replies, which is weird since people post there on unrelated things just to be seen.
I'm OP's MGoLegal Representation, and I urge you to stop negging. Bolivian is not where he belongs. He's just a kid, man. Read my pleas up top, spanks
So do you guys think Rodriguez will get another year or not?
......but the prospects are not good, I hear. By the way, has anyone seen the Domino's corporate jet recently?
Query: What is more impressive:
A) The epic fail that was the OT?
B) The number of responses that the OT illicited?
That cupboard sure was stuffed full of experienced, BCS-level QB's. Threet sure has been tearing it up out west. And Sheridan just capped off a great career. And college football will never, ever see the likes of the Coner again. There sure were a lot of great fourth and fifth-year players starting in 2010, too. What a wonderful post by an extremely intelligent OP.
What's next, the "myth" that we put a man on the moon? Anyway, it's always a really classy move to attack someone who isn't even here anymore in a post that has absolutely fucking nothing to do with anything current on the football team.
For believing in the moon landing.
Interesting that you criticize people for "attacking" RR because he isn't here anymore yet you felt the need to take shots at Threet and Sheridan. Hypocrite.
I blame Tate Forcier. Wait, you say that there is no possible way he can be blamed for how bad the defense was before he even arrived on campus? Nope, I'm bored and any irrational thought that I have can be rationalized with enough thinking. I can't revel in the bright future, but only look at the past.
Hey, remember when Mike Hart fumbled in the Capitol One Bowl? That really sucked, huh? I was pissed. As a matter of fact, I am still pissed.
Are you suggesting that Michigan's defense wasn't bad in 2008? Rodriguez took a unit that finished second in the Big Ten in nearly every statistical category in 2007 and drove it off a cliff. In 2008, they finished tenth in Big Ten scoring defense, passing defense, rushing defense, and total defense. Immediately upon arriving at Michigan, Rodriguez abdicated at least 40% of his job (assuming offense is 40%, defense is 40% and special teams is 20%). The problems of the "decimated defense" only kicked in during the following years when the lack of recruiting, injuries, and attrition led to the debacles of 2009 and 2010.
You know what's funny about your post....you said Michigan was 2nd in nearly every category in 07. The only problem with that is you forgot about OOC games, in which we lost to Appy State and let up a fuckton of points against them, Oregon, and Florida. Also, if you actually read the decimated defense (or even the author's summary a couple posts above yours) you would see that it very much "kicked in" for the 08 season.
The argument still holds even if you include non-conference games. Michigan was 24th in scoring defense in 2007 and plummeted to 84th in 2008 despite playing a significantly tougher non-conference schedule in 2007. And the defense was hardly decimated in 2008. It was littered with 4 and 5 star players with at least a year of starting experience. Even if one takes into account the coaching change, that's doesn't explain the enormous dropoff. Had Michigan's defense been mediocre in 2008, say finishing in the middle of the conference, I could understand. But it didn't. It was pushed off a cliff by a head coach who brought not the "best staff in the country" as he loved to proclaim, but incompetence.
-110 is that a record for neg bombs? Haven't been around long but its the most I've ever seen, I knew it was gonna be bad when I clicked on it but just wow
The OP is proving a point- just not the one he intends to prove: For some, what really mattered was the guy in the driver's seat.
There is absolutely nothing to gain from posting this stuff.
Please, get over your own personal resentment of a coach who hasn't been employed at UM in over 5 weeks...instead, please focus that energy on building the current program and HC up.
Next time you find yourself wondering how else you can prove that RR just didn’t cut it, ask yourself: 'DOES IT EVEN F**KING MATTER?!'
Here- I even went through the trouble of making you your very own personal flowchart to help with that last question:
Notice you can't choose 'Yes'...
This chart needs to be front page material.
So well done that I just got done pledging total allegiance to it aloud in front of frightened relatives. This pledge includes ceasing all responses to the coming onslaught either blaming Hoke for messing up the inevitable 10 win season of 2011 if he wins too few, or claiming he is an irrelevant ribbon cutter for what was already gift-wrapped him if he wins 10.
All that shit is addicting but is a total waste to post responses to. Not like anyone's mind is going to change.
Front runner for post of the month and for best avatar I hadn't seen yet.
You know, you're right - it IS bare! Who's with me for a run to Meijer?
The cupboard may not have been bare, but it was understocked. How else do you explain the youth and tiny senior classes over the past 3 years?
And how many of the recruits from the classes before 08 left before RR even got here? I bet you will be surprised if you actually do the research.
In other words, you are extremely biased against RichRod and if you actually took the time to research the reason your "facts" and "stats" are irrelevant then people might actually take anything you say seriously. I just figured that you spend so much time researching RichRod's shortcomings that you might actually want to research the end of Carr's tenure here and see the entire picture of the team when he took over. I was wrong.
Also, I don't really give a fuck if you think I lied because I don't have the time to look back through all of your garbage posts. The topic was RR and Michigan's rivalries and you questioned whether or not him caring about the rivalries more would have shown on the field in the wins category. You said it and I remember because I told you that was stupid as shit. If you want to find it, go for it. I don't really care.
Hey, remember when you were all over Harbaugh's nuts and you said Hoke would be a huge step down from him? You kept hoping and wishing for Harbaugh. Then Hoke was hired. Now you are all over him like white on rice. Oh how things change.
Also, you are still stupid as shit.
I hate you. But I hate David Brandon more.
Is there one of those fancy charts like that for all the RR lovers?
If the argument was the cupboard was bare on defense, you just did an awesome job exploding the myth.
All the better for you if you've blotted out the memory, but.... in 2008 our defense was ok and our offense was historically bad.
What. the. shit.
I'm posting this while hiding in a bunker, trying to hide from the bombs....
I appreciated reading the OP and seeing that video clip & agree with the OP. Presented quickly and painlessly with all the pertinent info.
There, I did it.
I am wearing lab goggles. There's too much flame on this thread for my eyeballs.
I have been using this thread to keep warm - it's 5 degrees here.
shut your whore mouth. the d in 08 was decent but they were on the field for 7/8ths of the game. or do you forget about steve threet and nick sheridan and a true freshamn starting in the backfield?
The cupboard must be bare. We're fighting each other for the last scrap like crazy-eyed savages.
Let's bring back civility, friends.
Yeah, because Morgan Trent had an inate ability to put people on an island
Had RR hired a very good, 4-3 oriented defensive coordinator and let him put together his own staff. The offense wasn't going to be much better unless RR had been able to keep Mallet and Boren, maybe Arrington too. Even with both these chips in play, it wouldn't have been 9 win good. 6 or 7, maybe. Tops.
The end of the Henne/Hart/Long?Manningham era didn't leave us in a position to immediately compete for the Big 10 championship any way you cut it. That said, rebuilding didn't have to be as harsh as it was.
Had RR started off somewhat differently, and made a few different decisions (keeping the 5 star QB you've got rather than pursuing the one you want when you're at best the second suitor, for one), I think we'd have come through this period in better shape and he'd still be our coach.
and I now feel so enriched.
football players in a cupboard? That's just wrong. I'm appalled.
People have obviously eviscerated this argument already (262 responses!), so I'll add my $.02 and move on - for all the talent you listed, they were almost exclusively on the defensive side of the ball and were seniors that frankly underperformed by-and-large. The offense had Steven Threet and Nick Sheridan at the helm, no RB that could stay on the field, and an offensive line in shambles. On defense, you had a good defensive line with a meh secondary and a gapping hole at LB. This was one of the least talented teams in recent memory before RR ever stepped foot in the room, and depth was a major issue that reared its ugly head over the past 3 years. I'm not saying RR inherritted a HS football team, but ignoring the dearth of talent because of some star ratings in just myopic.
I hate everything.
Just seeing the thread title made me realize how this would go.
I honestly don't really think it's a good idea to keep dwelling on the bygones and keep starting predictable debates about Lloyd Carr, Rich Rodriguez, 2007 transition, "The Process" etc. The positions on those issues have basically become a matter of faith by now anyway. Nobody's gonna convince anyone.
I am one of the apparently small grouping of people who wanted RR out but hated the process and was pretty angry at the Hoke hire. But I've moved on, accepted the Hoke transition and look forward to the next season which should be the real subject of debate, not what happened years ago.
I'm just here for the neg-bang.