My confidence in Tate is actually higher now
Despite the rough day he had, despite the continued looseness with the ball and the four interceptions, I didn't see anything today that made me feel that Forcier will not develop into a top flight, All B10 QB for us. We know from this year that Tate is not an interception machine, so I don't see that as an issue in terms of his future here. Everything I saw today was fixable. He even looked to make better reads in the running game for the most part, and most of the interceptions were a result of trying to do too much. With four INT's and a couple drops, he was still 23-37 and moved the team for the most part as a true freshman against he best D in the B10, He is accurate on the run, and has the potential to be better than he was even early in the season. It may be perverse, but I am encouraged, rather than discouraged, by his performance today.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:54 PM ^
1.) If Devin Gardner runs the offense, it will not be the one Tate runs. Totally different skill sets. It will be more like WVU. He won't be asked to make a bunch of throws, just when necessary. Bubble screens, slants, quick outs, hitches, and seam routes would be most everything he would run. Wouldn't be too difficult for him. Tate had to run a more complex passing offense because he's not a running back like Gardner can be.
2.) He's considered the best QB in the nation, considering how much room he has for gains (Which also works against him in the case for him starting right away)
3.) He's a freak athlete. Never count out a freak athlete who can run like a running back and make most of the throws required of him.
4.) Great leadership seen from him so far (Not comparing at all to Tate, this is DG's list)
That's about all I've got until i see him in the spring. Even though I'll be debating this all winter, no point of substance can be made until he gets in camp. If Tate can improve, then he could be a good starter. But I don't see where he'll make big strides, his play looks like it did in HS as far as how he acts out there. Then again, I could be wrong and all he needs is more coaching. Can't really answer that until we get back into Big Ten play next year.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:23 PM ^
If Gardner doesn't enroll early, you won't see him in the spring. Fall enrollees aren't eligible for spring practice.
As for him being ranked the top QB in the country, keep in mind that 1) this is supposed to be an weaker-than-usual year for QBs and 2) that's a ranking of guys who are high school seniors. Even if his ranking is marginally higher than what Tate's was a year ago, that doesn't matter - he won't be going up against the Tate of 2009, but the Tate of 2010, who has 12 college starts under his belt.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:36 PM ^
I thought it was concrete that he was enrolling early? Everyone I've heard talk about him has mentioned that. Maybe it was just speculation. Despite this being a weaker year, if you're put up there with the best, then you've got to be pretty good. The whole logic behind my wanting Gardner to start is that A.) I dont really think Tate can get that much better, this is how he looked on tape too, and i dont see a lot of growth room. But, a healthy shoulder will automatically make him better, and B.) Devin runs the WVU offense, not Tate's. I think that complicates the battle because it would be as much a direction issue as a whose better one. Then again I could be wrong, and Tate comes back a different QB.
November 21st, 2009 at 10:41 PM ^
It's silly to assume that Tate won't get much better. He was a true freshman this year. And given that he is only one year removed from high school, it should be no surprise that he looks a lot like he did for Scripps Ranch. He hasn't been here that long. There's a reason most QBs don't play as freshmen. It's a very difficult position to learn, and the transition from high school to college is huge.
November 21st, 2009 at 10:56 PM ^
I meant physically. Obviously Mentally there's basically infinite room for growth (In anyone). I'm talking about his instincts, they look like they did in HS, and always will, because that's how hes programmed. That's how we ended up with the drive against ND, and how we ended up with today.
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:48 AM ^
You don't think that an 180 pound 18-19 year old has room to grow (physically)? Ok.
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:57 AM ^
Gardner only mentioned that he was considering enrolling early last week. If he hasn't decided by now, it's pretty much impossible... he can't have enough credits, and he wouldn't be able to do some crazy "drop out, earn a GED and enroll early" scheme because of Michigan state law.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:53 PM ^
To say that, "you don't know about his deep ball because he has not been able to set his feet ALL YEAR".... is just plain homerism. I have seen COUNTLESS times when he has had time to set his feet and still missed the receiver by 10 yards.... or the ball floated out of bounds.
With Tate, the offense is one dimensional.... "dink and dunk!"
The guy has a "cap gun" for an arm no doubt about it. Moreover, his being so short as to have to constantly run to one side of the field or the other to throw the ball means that Tate is working with half a field. The opposing defense can let the sideline help them defend the field.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:06 PM ^
Choke on a dick and die.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:22 PM ^
rather see that than someone who apparently does not comprehend football. To allege that Tate is inaccurate is literally a joke, and instantly disqualifies you from further comment. His future is certainly open, and maybe he won;t pan out, who knows. I think he will. But he is already as accurate RIGHT NOW as a true freshman, as many starting UM QB's have been.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:09 PM ^
me too. tate did some great things against a tough D. they didn't pound him nearly as much as I feared. he's just got to throw the ball like a D1 athlete. i mean, he was putting up some ducks at some inopportune times. The kid is simply trying to make plays. sometimes he does too much, and thinks he can do things that he can't yet. I've seen the performance he had today several times by Jay Cutler. ultimately, though, i don't see him being nearly as Pick-prone.
also... Roy Roundtree. yes. you are good. love it. can't wait for next year.
if we're not significantly more effective next year, I would start to question Rich Rod's coaching. With continuity on offense, there's just no reason Tate / Roundtree shouldn't be a force to contend with. that's why I really hope Rich Rod will show continued faith in Tate. I'm not saying he is automatically the starter w/o competition... the dude needs to kind of chill out and work hard at getting better. but they've got a spark to work with on offense, and it needs to be nurtured.
that's all. i'm pretty fucking frustrated, like a lot of you, but I'm really trying to be patient and look for any good signs. we had a good chance to win this one, and it got away.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:43 PM ^
He's a freshman QB. He made some freshman mistakes. He'll be much better next year and we'll see those results.
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:18 AM ^
I think that Forcier showed real leadership by taking the blame for this loss, but it is also why he was making mistakes and throwing into double coverages, etc. He is a Freshman trying to put the team on his shoulders. It was obvious to me that, once his fumble cost us the lead, we were probably (although not necessarily) in trouble. Forcier spent the game playing from behind and trying to make big plays instead of staying within himself, forgiving himself his mistakes and focusing on being an efficient QB.
That said, I really think he took that energy and did some great things; One thing I like about him is that FINALLY we have a QB who can make something happen on a broken play. After decades of watching drop back pro-set QB's take sacks or throw the ball away, we have a kid who can make plays when things turn to shit. As a freshman, we have to expect that sometimes, those plays will turn into mistakes, but I think the reason so many feel so hopeful about Forcier is that he can do things like "the drive" TD against Notre Dame or even some of those throws yesterday to Matthews on the sideline, etc. You look at that and you see promise. As excellent as he was, if Chad Henne could have moved and thrown on the run like Forcier, we'd be sitting on some more National Championship trophies.
On the other hand, I feel like the play calling and the system could have done a much better job of supporting him, of giving him the chance to be patient and forcing him to make plays in fewer situations. The reality is that our running game was really inconsistent because our OL was hurt, makeshift and a work in progress, our best RB was hurt all year and all of that heaped even more pressure on Forcier, which in turn put in him in more situations where he was trying too hard to make plays, to come from behind. Yesterday, we had so many poor calls on second down; dumps into the flat for negative yardage, long throws, etc. If we were able to mix it up a little more, we would have been in better shape. Couple that with a defense that couldn't get off the field for most of the second half of the season and the team was too often chasing the game instead of dictating play.
The game of football is all about controlling yourself and your opposition. As Forcier grows (and grows more patient), as his game management skills get closer to parity with his guts and desire, he could blossom into a special player.
My advice to RR is to get behind his QB and his team leader. I feel that the coach is too petty sometimes; I'm more than willing to give him my patience as he tries to build this team, but if he asks for patience, he better show 10X more than he asks for with his young players. Forcier needs to be taught, needs room to grow and learn from his mistakes and more than that, he needs the confidence of his coach and his teammates. Yanking him after mistakes, throwing on Robinson not as an interesting change-up but as a punitive measure against Forcier, talking about Gardner as being the savior; none of this helps the team. If you're asking everyone to hang in there as we build something, then take your time and build it right. Hand Forcier the keys and bring him along, don't take the privilege of frustration for yourself and ask patience of others. We've just given up two years of a very proud and passionate football program in order that RR can build what is required; build it properly and in line with the values of the program. Stay calm and keep us on track;
Redshirt Gardner, use Robinson in a "wildcat" style system and mix up the play calling, utilize the power running game, move Foricer under center once in a while-- add complexity and dimension to the team without undermining the kid's confidence. If you can build a defense that isn't constantly killing itself, I think we're in good shape for the future. I really like Forcier because I think he is a winner and has character. But throwing the expectations and blame that the entire Michigan Football community is feeling onto his shoulders, doing that after a year like this-- you're missing the point. He needs time and he needs to be taught how to go from being good to being a great leader; RR needs to lead by example here.
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:38 PM ^
This offense is complex, and needs a lot of experience recognizing defenses and running the right play. Brian and the amazing coaches who right diaries have shown that Forcier makes the wrong read lots of times. It seemed like there were a lot of zone read plays yesterday in which Tate handed the ball off when he should have kept it, and would have had room to run it himself. I think another year of practice will help Tate just improve at making the decisions, and avoid handing the ball off only to run into a DE's arms. Tate will also be able to use his experience this year to avoid taking sacks, throwing interceptions, and just in general be better. He may have certain physical limitations, but I think his accuracy and intelligence can make up for it.
Gardner is a great athlete and a perfect fit for the offense, but I think he and the team would be best served by a redshirt. He gets a year to practice and learn the offense while he can avoid the freshman pains of Forcier (and D-Rob, for that matter). I think he should only burn the redshirt if there is an injury to Forcier that causes him to miss a game. Unfortunately, I think Rodriguez will feel the pressure to win next year, and waste Gardner's redshirt for the sake of short-term success.