My confidence in Tate is actually higher now
Despite the rough day he had, despite the continued looseness with the ball and the four interceptions, I didn't see anything today that made me feel that Forcier will not develop into a top flight, All B10 QB for us. We know from this year that Tate is not an interception machine, so I don't see that as an issue in terms of his future here. Everything I saw today was fixable. He even looked to make better reads in the running game for the most part, and most of the interceptions were a result of trying to do too much. With four INT's and a couple drops, he was still 23-37 and moved the team for the most part as a true freshman against he best D in the B10, He is accurate on the run, and has the potential to be better than he was even early in the season. It may be perverse, but I am encouraged, rather than discouraged, by his performance today.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:21 PM ^
Did you see the message that he sent in to the AP after the game? "I lost that game," Forcier wrote in a text message to The Associated Press about an hour after the game. "This offseason, I'm gonna make sure myself and every single person on this team works the hardest we have ever worked. We're gonna come back a new team. I'm not going to let this happen again."
That is the response that you want from your quaterback. Here's to next year everyone!
November 21st, 2009 at 7:38 PM ^
that is an awfully big thing of him to say and i fully believe in him. just one more thing about that team to be proud of today.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:39 PM ^
I'll shut up, but I wish Tate didn't send all these texts out to theses msm types. I know he means well, but I don't like these somewhat spur of the moment thoughts sent to the many scumsucking reporters at the worldwide leader.
That said, I like seeing Tate step up leadership-wise. I can't wait for next year already.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:43 PM ^
I agree with you that he probably shouldn't be doing that but if RichRod doesn't say anything to him, he must like the fact that Tate is showing that he is taking responsibility for his play and trying to motivate his teammates even if he is a freshman. I feel that if these texts get out of hand, RichRod will step in and put a stop to it....
Or Barwis will just send his wolves on him
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:14 PM ^
Maybe he was just hoping he'd get the MSM sucking him for that Tebow-style promise to work hard and be better. Too bad a text isn't quite as dramatic as a sweaty press conference.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:28 PM ^
No offense, but how is he not a turnover machine? The much maligned Terrelle Pryor has the same number of INTs (10), but Pryor has more TDs (15 vs 13). You can't have it both ways - either Pryor is a headcase turnover enthusiast and so is Forcier, or neither is.
Sorry, hate to point out the obvious.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:32 PM ^
Where does the OP call TP a turnover machine?
November 21st, 2009 at 7:35 PM ^
I think a big difference here is that Tate was a true Frosh while Pryor is true Sophmore with a year of experience and as a second year starter, I would think that your expected to make better reads and decisions on the field.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:36 PM ^
They do not play in the same scheme, Tate is a Freshman while Pryor should have had already shown some upside passing, Tate almost doubled his interceptions in just this one lone game and he did not have a running game to support him so he threw like 40 passes today, i bet Tate got more yds than Pryor during the season too (passing), and it's just a guess...
November 21st, 2009 at 8:32 PM ^
Tate had about 2050 yards to TP's 1820-something. His QB rating is higher, too. Oh yeah, and he's a true freshman and doesn't throw the ball directly into the ground on screens.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:39 PM ^
So you're saying there's no difference between a true freshman in a second year coach's system, with an undersized offensive line and a second year QB in an established offensive system full of highly ranked recruits...
I think it's more telling that the INTs are the same (even with the 4 for Tate today) for the future development of the 2 players.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:48 PM ^
I don't think Pryor is a turnover machine, nor have I heard of anyone here (although I don't read every last bit of content) who thinks he is.
What I don't think is that Pryor is God's Gift to Football, which is obvious at this point. He's not throwing a program on his back and willing it to win, which is what was billed to be within his overhyped ability.
Seems like a simple distinction.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:54 PM ^
I haven't watched OSU enough this year to really comment on his overall game, but what I saw today is someone that should have gone to UM or another read option team. He didn't seem to have what it takes to make the deep throws that a pro-style offense would require. What I did see though was some great read options and nice scrambling abilities. I know we make fun of his supposed 40 time around here, but he looked pretty darn quick to me and seemed to be the fastest guy on the field when he took off. More power to him for wanting to go somewhere that he could develop into an NFL quarterback, but I think his best skills are being wasted. Especially with the NFL employing so much wild cat and stuff now, he could have been better served to perfect the read option.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:14 PM ^
Who the fuck invited Debbie Downer to the party????
November 21st, 2009 at 8:29 PM ^
but all Tressel is asking Pryor to do is to not throw picks and run the ball. In the last three games, Pryor has thrown for 125yd, 93 yds, and (today) 67 yds. Hats off to the tOSU D (best in the B10), and to a good tOSU rushing game. They cover for the shortcomings of Pryor.
http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=379070
Tate, on the other hand, has to be more than a handoff QB. Mich needs Tate to move the offense.
http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=480264
November 21st, 2009 at 8:33 PM ^
Forcier has also played one less game so there would have been more touchdowns then. I would take a soph Forcier over a soph tp anyday
November 21st, 2009 at 7:29 PM ^
I see Tate as more of a Brian Griese type player. Griese was very erratic until his senior year, when he was fabulous except for one half against Iowa (fortunately, it was the first half and he made up for it in the second). Next year could still be a roller coaster for Tate.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:48 PM ^
Tate's got more upside than Greise. Griese was basically your classic game-manager type, without a great arm or feet, and just okay accuracy. He didn't have to play until his redshirt sophomore season and still was a mess, despite having a great OL in front of him and Biakabutuka to hand off to. If he'd have had to carry our offense the way Tate did this season, it could have been ugly.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:34 PM ^
Griese wasn't the best QB we ever had but he was a winner. Period.
November 21st, 2009 at 10:35 PM ^
Entering his fifth-year senior season, Griese had a career record of 5-5 as a starter. Maybe he suddenly matured into a "winner" (whatever that means) as a senior, or maybe he was aided by the fact that that team happened to have one of the best defenses in school history.
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:02 AM ^
Kinda obvious the defense was a huge part of that year. But you seem to "forget" we had a decent offense too. Not going to win a NC without both. But there were several games that year that Griese proved he had icewater in his veins in the 4th quarter. He never choked and you always felt confident that he would pull it out without making a mistake.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:38 PM ^
I'm glad he has a good attitude, but the yardstick by which his progress will be measured, at least by me, will be the W-L record next year.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:40 PM ^
I appreciate the optimism, but man, that was a pretty rough effort today to get a positive impression out of. The two long INTs were not the end of the world (have to put bomb to Robinson on the playcalling, imo). You can't ignore though that his fumble and int in the end zone resulted in a 14 point swing in a game that was decided by 11 points. It also seemed that he was pretty quick to blame things on his team mates and running over to the OSU fans to taunt them after the Smith touchdown was uncalled for and should have been flagged. Not really what I want to see out of a UM quarterback.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:57 PM ^
fixable. You watch many freshman QB's, and they look completely lost--apart from the three INT's in a row, at least one of which was as you say, on the call, Tate looks like a QB that can make plays as a freshman--that is rare. I'm not saying he's Tebow or McCoy, but I haven't seen anything as a true freshman out of him that make me doubt that he can be an All B10 QB in future.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:02 PM ^
I agree that he's been good overall this year and I'm thrilled to have him after last year's debacle. I agree if he stays around until his senior season, there's no reason to think he won't be all Big Ten caliber (maybe even by his junior year). I was just saying that I didn't see today as a shining example of that. He seemed hesitant to throw the ball on his first few reads over the last few games (maybe no one was open, I can't see all the field at once and I haven't had the stomach to rewatch any of these last few games). And like I said, the blaming the other guys and taunting the fans needs to be coached out of him.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:36 PM ^
and his running game averaged only 2.6 yds/attempt.
Other than the fumble, and the last two picks, I thought he played pretty well*.
*After his third INT, I believe we were lined up to punt on 4th down from our 35. (Doesn't seem like a RichRod call, but I thought that's what I saw on TV from one quick shot.) If that's the case, the irony is that tOSU was cheering a successful punt (downed at the 6).
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:20 PM ^
I was at the game, and I'm pretty sure we were going to go for in on 4th and 5. I think Tate was still on the field, and I remember thinking that the INT on the 6 is better than not converting the 4th down, and giving them the ball at the 35.
The call could have been the Tate pooch punt, too.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:42 PM ^
Funny he sent that message to the AP. I was just saying that in now way is it better for us to lose this game, however if Tate has a monster game maybe he goes into the off season with his head filled with ideas about how great he is. Now, I do not doubt that he will be hungry as ever to improve. I do think we will see a much improved Forcier next fall ,in part because of this performance.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:46 PM ^
Although I have been pleasantly surprised during the first half of this season with Tate's ability to achieve and lead, I have not been nearly as impressed during the second half. I love this kid, but I feel that defenses and coaches have made HUGE adjustments to his style of play and we/Tate has not made similar adjustments (selling handoffs, for instance). I do think Tate has been playing hurt for most of the second half of the season and has little protection from our O-Line. I am proud of what Tate has achieved, but I think he is closer to the top of his talent than D-Rob or Devin Gardner. If Tate can "take it to the next level" I will be happy to tip my hat and say I was wrong.
Overall, I feel Tate has done a masterful job given the fact he was a Freshman with limited skill players and very limited lineman. The future certain looks brighter than today. But don't be surprised to find an equally impressive starter mid-season next year without the name Tate.
Go Blue - forever!!
November 21st, 2009 at 7:46 PM ^
I saw a headline on espn that said something like "forcier hands osu outright title". seriously? fuck that. tate played amazing today. sure he had some bad decisions but we put the entire offense on his shoulders. he had no running game and was going against the best defense in the big ten. he's a true freshmen that threw for about 40 times in the biggest game of his life. and at about 10 minutes left in the 4th with the ball on the osu 9 it looked like we could have had some magic.
my only problem with tate is how rr benches him after every interception. the last one particularly was annoying. the kids confidence is clearly shot he should have been put in on the last drive...ime
November 21st, 2009 at 8:35 PM ^
I think the reason Rich Rod pulled him out of the game was because he was very disgruntled after the interception. There is no point in putting him back in there disgruntled so he can throw another interception and really lose confidence. Forcier's problem now is that he tries to do too much at times. Putting him back in there right away would have made him try to force another ball. He is going to be a great quarterback and I also think Robinson will be too. It is going to be tough to decide who to play in the future at Michigan with Garnder also coming.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:46 PM ^
tate moved the offense down the field well and if there's any upside to this loss it should humble him and show the importance of ball security. the only thing that frustrates me is how we looked throwing the ball down field the last two games. i understand the hesitancy with a true frosh at qb but i really feel we could have and should have pushed the ball down field more often before these last two games.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:56 PM ^
You must have been watching a different game than me. Forcier was awful. The team played with heart today, but Forcier did not play with his head. How can you not throw the ball away when you are in the end zone? How can you decide to throw desperately across the field when it is 2nd down? If you are Rrod, you have to be doubting whether Forcier can take you where you want to go. I sure am. If Gardner is half what he is hyped up to be, Forcier will be on the bench by mid-season. He is small. His arm is weak. He is slower than his competition. He needs to spend more time in the film room, and less time self-promoting himself to the media.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:00 PM ^
don't know what more I can say. If we were talking about a junior I'd agree whole-heartedly, but the fact is he is not. You have to EXPECT boneheaded plays from a true freshman QB.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:06 PM ^
No 2 ways about it, the guy stunk up the joint. But I am not willing to give up on the guy just yet.
What concerns me about him, however, is the fact that we have to play "small ball" with him. It is a "dink and dunk" offense with him quarterbacking this team. He simply does NOT throw a good deep ball. In fact, if you look at it, I think he has only thrown 2 touchdowns all year with the player ALREADY IN THE END ZONE. For everything else, it was a relatively short throw, catch, and run the ball into end zone.
And on his deep throws, he misses the receiver by 10 yards... it is not even close. Or his ball will float out of bounds.
Moreover, he averages on 2.5 yards per rush. So he is not a real threat to run the ball. Yes, he can occasionally scramble for a few yards but he is no true running threat.
And lastly, his decision making and ball security has been terrible. That red zone interception was a boneheaded decision anyway you look at it. And all season he has made questionable decisions.
I have little confidence that this guy is our answer. Bottom line is he is limited. Limited in terms of talent. Limited in terms of height, size, arm strength, speed, decision making and overall ability. The best thing he offers is "dink and dunk" offense. Everywhere else this kid is lacking.
He is not even a poor man's Jeff Garcia... Garcia is strong, wiry, and throws a tight spiral on a rope. Tate throws a flutter ball.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:06 PM ^
on a true Freshman QB. Big of you. Your post is completely uninformed.
Look, no one has to agree with my OP, maybe he is not going to be All B10 like I think he has the potential to be. Fair enough. Perhaps he has physical or mental limitations that will prevent it. But to pronounce that judgement on a freshman that has demonstrated, and has stats, better than a lot of true freshman QB's, is kind of ridiculous. Though maybe you're a good enough personnel man to tell right now.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:15 PM ^
Remember the picture-perfect deep ball Forcier threw to Hemingway in the opener against WMU? He's more than capable of throwing deep. The bigger issue is our pass protection. Our OL has rarely given him enough time to wait for a long downfield route to develop, so he frequently has to check down, improvise or throw the ball downfield a half-second early (which often means a long incompletion).
It's also worth noting that we really don't have anyone in the receiving corps with great deep speed. Braylon could run down some of those deep passes that are falling long. Mathews, Hemingway, Roundree et al. can't do that as easily.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:27 PM ^
iirc the ball to Hemingway wasn't all that deep, it was a great play by Tate though
November 21st, 2009 at 8:36 PM ^
Hemingway caught two TD passes against WMU. I'm talking about the second one, which was 44 yards and caught right in stride.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUlAxdKoIjI&feature=player_embedded
November 21st, 2009 at 8:55 PM ^
Ok, sorry bout that, forgot the long td. Thanks for jogging my memory
November 21st, 2009 at 8:14 PM ^
I feel like we have no idea about Tate's deep ball because he has had very few times where he could sit in the pocket and throw the ball deep, whether if it's the o-line being sup-par or Tate giving up on the pocket too early and scrambling is up for debate but he hasn't been able to set his feet and deliver a ball downfield.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:42 PM ^
People also keep forgetting about Tate's AC joint injury. That type of injury doesn't just go away, it gets worse every week until you rest it for a long period of time.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:05 PM ^
I like him, but I'm still not a fan of his "me" mentality.
"I'm going to do___X___ for this team."
"This is on me."
I think he needs to mature attitudinally; and yes, shouldn't have gone over to opposing fans.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:01 PM ^
never be a good passer in college or the pros. He cannot throw the ball long with any accuracy. When he is under any kind of pressure, his passing is atrocious. He can run and he is fast so maybe he can be a wide receiver in the pros but he will never be a pro quarterback.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:02 PM ^
Tate made some good plays today but to say he was amazing after 5 turnovers is a little homerish. I love Tate but let's be somewhat reasonable. He didn't hand OSU the win but he didn't exactly will Michigan to victory either. Now, since I didn't say Tate was the greatest player in history for his performance today, let the negbangs ensue. But seriously, lets be honest. He was a freshman today. He made some great plays and some bad ones as to be expected.
He will be much better for this next year as the OP suggested.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:07 PM ^
No one's questioning that he's going to be great. For a freshman, he's doing much better than some veteran QBs. Some of us are still pissed at all the turnovers today, but it will pass. Here's hoping for 2010.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:10 PM ^
The QB position is not set. There will be competition in the offseason. Let's see what happens.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:23 PM ^
I'm not anointing him 4 year starter, simply saying he has strong potential. If DR or DG can beat him out next year that's fine with me.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:17 PM ^
The kid's got a good heart and an even better arm, but he's going to have competition next year. The turnovers may hurt his playing time next season with DG and Robinson chomping at the bit. Other than that, I've liked the kid all year long. Must be the confidence he shows.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:43 PM ^
i don't know what makes anybody think that devin gardner is going to come in here and not be entirely susceptible to the same mistakes tate has made. i do think his size and athleticism allows for some great possibilities at qb and other positions as well but don't be foolish.