Despite the rough day he had, despite the continued looseness with the ball and the four interceptions, I didn't see anything today that made me feel that Forcier will not develop into a top flight, All B10 QB for us. We know from this year that Tate is not an interception machine, so I don't see that as an issue in terms of his future here. Everything I saw today was fixable. He even looked to make better reads in the running game for the most part, and most of the interceptions were a result of trying to do too much. With four INT's and a couple drops, he was still 23-37 and moved the team for the most part as a true freshman against he best D in the B10, He is accurate on the run, and has the potential to be better than he was even early in the season. It may be perverse, but I am encouraged, rather than discouraged, by his performance today.
My confidence in Tate is actually higher now
Did you see the message that he sent in to the AP after the game? "I lost that game," Forcier wrote in a text message to The Associated Press about an hour after the game. "This offseason, I'm gonna make sure myself and every single person on this team works the hardest we have ever worked. We're gonna come back a new team. I'm not going to let this happen again."
That is the response that you want from your quaterback. Here's to next year everyone!
that is an awfully big thing of him to say and i fully believe in him. just one more thing about that team to be proud of today.
I'll shut up, but I wish Tate didn't send all these texts out to theses msm types. I know he means well, but I don't like these somewhat spur of the moment thoughts sent to the many scumsucking reporters at the worldwide leader.
That said, I like seeing Tate step up leadership-wise. I can't wait for next year already.
I agree with you that he probably shouldn't be doing that but if RichRod doesn't say anything to him, he must like the fact that Tate is showing that he is taking responsibility for his play and trying to motivate his teammates even if he is a freshman. I feel that if these texts get out of hand, RichRod will step in and put a stop to it....
Or Barwis will just send his wolves on him
Maybe he was just hoping he'd get the MSM sucking him for that Tebow-style promise to work hard and be better. Too bad a text isn't quite as dramatic as a sweaty press conference.
No offense, but how is he not a turnover machine? The much maligned Terrelle Pryor has the same number of INTs (10), but Pryor has more TDs (15 vs 13). You can't have it both ways - either Pryor is a headcase turnover enthusiast and so is Forcier, or neither is.
Sorry, hate to point out the obvious.
Where does the OP call TP a turnover machine?
I think a big difference here is that Tate was a true Frosh while Pryor is true Sophmore with a year of experience and as a second year starter, I would think that your expected to make better reads and decisions on the field.
They do not play in the same scheme, Tate is a Freshman while Pryor should have had already shown some upside passing, Tate almost doubled his interceptions in just this one lone game and he did not have a running game to support him so he threw like 40 passes today, i bet Tate got more yds than Pryor during the season too (passing), and it's just a guess...
Tate had about 2050 yards to TP's 1820-something. His QB rating is higher, too. Oh yeah, and he's a true freshman and doesn't throw the ball directly into the ground on screens.
So you're saying there's no difference between a true freshman in a second year coach's system, with an undersized offensive line and a second year QB in an established offensive system full of highly ranked recruits...
I think it's more telling that the INTs are the same (even with the 4 for Tate today) for the future development of the 2 players.
I don't think Pryor is a turnover machine, nor have I heard of anyone here (although I don't read every last bit of content) who thinks he is.
What I don't think is that Pryor is God's Gift to Football, which is obvious at this point. He's not throwing a program on his back and willing it to win, which is what was billed to be within his overhyped ability.
Seems like a simple distinction.
I haven't watched OSU enough this year to really comment on his overall game, but what I saw today is someone that should have gone to UM or another read option team. He didn't seem to have what it takes to make the deep throws that a pro-style offense would require. What I did see though was some great read options and nice scrambling abilities. I know we make fun of his supposed 40 time around here, but he looked pretty darn quick to me and seemed to be the fastest guy on the field when he took off. More power to him for wanting to go somewhere that he could develop into an NFL quarterback, but I think his best skills are being wasted. Especially with the NFL employing so much wild cat and stuff now, he could have been better served to perfect the read option.
Who the fuck invited Debbie Downer to the party????
but all Tressel is asking Pryor to do is to not throw picks and run the ball. In the last three games, Pryor has thrown for 125yd, 93 yds, and (today) 67 yds. Hats off to the tOSU D (best in the B10), and to a good tOSU rushing game. They cover for the shortcomings of Pryor.
Tate, on the other hand, has to be more than a handoff QB. Mich needs Tate to move the offense.
Forcier has also played one less game so there would have been more touchdowns then. I would take a soph Forcier over a soph tp anyday
I see Tate as more of a Brian Griese type player. Griese was very erratic until his senior year, when he was fabulous except for one half against Iowa (fortunately, it was the first half and he made up for it in the second). Next year could still be a roller coaster for Tate.
Tate's got more upside than Greise. Griese was basically your classic game-manager type, without a great arm or feet, and just okay accuracy. He didn't have to play until his redshirt sophomore season and still was a mess, despite having a great OL in front of him and Biakabutuka to hand off to. If he'd have had to carry our offense the way Tate did this season, it could have been ugly.
Griese wasn't the best QB we ever had but he was a winner. Period.
Entering his fifth-year senior season, Griese had a career record of 5-5 as a starter. Maybe he suddenly matured into a "winner" (whatever that means) as a senior, or maybe he was aided by the fact that that team happened to have one of the best defenses in school history.
Kinda obvious the defense was a huge part of that year. But you seem to "forget" we had a decent offense too. Not going to win a NC without both. But there were several games that year that Griese proved he had icewater in his veins in the 4th quarter. He never choked and you always felt confident that he would pull it out without making a mistake.
I'm glad he has a good attitude, but the yardstick by which his progress will be measured, at least by me, will be the W-L record next year.
I appreciate the optimism, but man, that was a pretty rough effort today to get a positive impression out of. The two long INTs were not the end of the world (have to put bomb to Robinson on the playcalling, imo). You can't ignore though that his fumble and int in the end zone resulted in a 14 point swing in a game that was decided by 11 points. It also seemed that he was pretty quick to blame things on his team mates and running over to the OSU fans to taunt them after the Smith touchdown was uncalled for and should have been flagged. Not really what I want to see out of a UM quarterback.
fixable. You watch many freshman QB's, and they look completely lost--apart from the three INT's in a row, at least one of which was as you say, on the call, Tate looks like a QB that can make plays as a freshman--that is rare. I'm not saying he's Tebow or McCoy, but I haven't seen anything as a true freshman out of him that make me doubt that he can be an All B10 QB in future.
I agree that he's been good overall this year and I'm thrilled to have him after last year's debacle. I agree if he stays around until his senior season, there's no reason to think he won't be all Big Ten caliber (maybe even by his junior year). I was just saying that I didn't see today as a shining example of that. He seemed hesitant to throw the ball on his first few reads over the last few games (maybe no one was open, I can't see all the field at once and I haven't had the stomach to rewatch any of these last few games). And like I said, the blaming the other guys and taunting the fans needs to be coached out of him.
and his running game averaged only 2.6 yds/attempt.
Other than the fumble, and the last two picks, I thought he played pretty well*.
*After his third INT, I believe we were lined up to punt on 4th down from our 35. (Doesn't seem like a RichRod call, but I thought that's what I saw on TV from one quick shot.) If that's the case, the irony is that tOSU was cheering a successful punt (downed at the 6).
I was at the game, and I'm pretty sure we were going to go for in on 4th and 5. I think Tate was still on the field, and I remember thinking that the INT on the 6 is better than not converting the 4th down, and giving them the ball at the 35.
The call could have been the Tate pooch punt, too.
Funny he sent that message to the AP. I was just saying that in now way is it better for us to lose this game, however if Tate has a monster game maybe he goes into the off season with his head filled with ideas about how great he is. Now, I do not doubt that he will be hungry as ever to improve. I do think we will see a much improved Forcier next fall ,in part because of this performance.
Although I have been pleasantly surprised during the first half of this season with Tate's ability to achieve and lead, I have not been nearly as impressed during the second half. I love this kid, but I feel that defenses and coaches have made HUGE adjustments to his style of play and we/Tate has not made similar adjustments (selling handoffs, for instance). I do think Tate has been playing hurt for most of the second half of the season and has little protection from our O-Line. I am proud of what Tate has achieved, but I think he is closer to the top of his talent than D-Rob or Devin Gardner. If Tate can "take it to the next level" I will be happy to tip my hat and say I was wrong.
Overall, I feel Tate has done a masterful job given the fact he was a Freshman with limited skill players and very limited lineman. The future certain looks brighter than today. But don't be surprised to find an equally impressive starter mid-season next year without the name Tate.
Go Blue - forever!!
I saw a headline on espn that said something like "forcier hands osu outright title". seriously? fuck that. tate played amazing today. sure he had some bad decisions but we put the entire offense on his shoulders. he had no running game and was going against the best defense in the big ten. he's a true freshmen that threw for about 40 times in the biggest game of his life. and at about 10 minutes left in the 4th with the ball on the osu 9 it looked like we could have had some magic.
my only problem with tate is how rr benches him after every interception. the last one particularly was annoying. the kids confidence is clearly shot he should have been put in on the last drive...ime
I think the reason Rich Rod pulled him out of the game was because he was very disgruntled after the interception. There is no point in putting him back in there disgruntled so he can throw another interception and really lose confidence. Forcier's problem now is that he tries to do too much at times. Putting him back in there right away would have made him try to force another ball. He is going to be a great quarterback and I also think Robinson will be too. It is going to be tough to decide who to play in the future at Michigan with Garnder also coming.
tate moved the offense down the field well and if there's any upside to this loss it should humble him and show the importance of ball security. the only thing that frustrates me is how we looked throwing the ball down field the last two games. i understand the hesitancy with a true frosh at qb but i really feel we could have and should have pushed the ball down field more often before these last two games.
You must have been watching a different game than me. Forcier was awful. The team played with heart today, but Forcier did not play with his head. How can you not throw the ball away when you are in the end zone? How can you decide to throw desperately across the field when it is 2nd down? If you are Rrod, you have to be doubting whether Forcier can take you where you want to go. I sure am. If Gardner is half what he is hyped up to be, Forcier will be on the bench by mid-season. He is small. His arm is weak. He is slower than his competition. He needs to spend more time in the film room, and less time self-promoting himself to the media.
don't know what more I can say. If we were talking about a junior I'd agree whole-heartedly, but the fact is he is not. You have to EXPECT boneheaded plays from a true freshman QB.
No 2 ways about it, the guy stunk up the joint. But I am not willing to give up on the guy just yet.
What concerns me about him, however, is the fact that we have to play "small ball" with him. It is a "dink and dunk" offense with him quarterbacking this team. He simply does NOT throw a good deep ball. In fact, if you look at it, I think he has only thrown 2 touchdowns all year with the player ALREADY IN THE END ZONE. For everything else, it was a relatively short throw, catch, and run the ball into end zone.
And on his deep throws, he misses the receiver by 10 yards... it is not even close. Or his ball will float out of bounds.
Moreover, he averages on 2.5 yards per rush. So he is not a real threat to run the ball. Yes, he can occasionally scramble for a few yards but he is no true running threat.
And lastly, his decision making and ball security has been terrible. That red zone interception was a boneheaded decision anyway you look at it. And all season he has made questionable decisions.
I have little confidence that this guy is our answer. Bottom line is he is limited. Limited in terms of talent. Limited in terms of height, size, arm strength, speed, decision making and overall ability. The best thing he offers is "dink and dunk" offense. Everywhere else this kid is lacking.
He is not even a poor man's Jeff Garcia... Garcia is strong, wiry, and throws a tight spiral on a rope. Tate throws a flutter ball.
on a true Freshman QB. Big of you. Your post is completely uninformed.
Look, no one has to agree with my OP, maybe he is not going to be All B10 like I think he has the potential to be. Fair enough. Perhaps he has physical or mental limitations that will prevent it. But to pronounce that judgement on a freshman that has demonstrated, and has stats, better than a lot of true freshman QB's, is kind of ridiculous. Though maybe you're a good enough personnel man to tell right now.
Remember the picture-perfect deep ball Forcier threw to Hemingway in the opener against WMU? He's more than capable of throwing deep. The bigger issue is our pass protection. Our OL has rarely given him enough time to wait for a long downfield route to develop, so he frequently has to check down, improvise or throw the ball downfield a half-second early (which often means a long incompletion).
It's also worth noting that we really don't have anyone in the receiving corps with great deep speed. Braylon could run down some of those deep passes that are falling long. Mathews, Hemingway, Roundree et al. can't do that as easily.
iirc the ball to Hemingway wasn't all that deep, it was a great play by Tate though
Hemingway caught two TD passes against WMU. I'm talking about the second one, which was 44 yards and caught right in stride.
Ok, sorry bout that, forgot the long td. Thanks for jogging my memory
I feel like we have no idea about Tate's deep ball because he has had very few times where he could sit in the pocket and throw the ball deep, whether if it's the o-line being sup-par or Tate giving up on the pocket too early and scrambling is up for debate but he hasn't been able to set his feet and deliver a ball downfield.
People also keep forgetting about Tate's AC joint injury. That type of injury doesn't just go away, it gets worse every week until you rest it for a long period of time.
I like him, but I'm still not a fan of his "me" mentality.
"I'm going to do___X___ for this team."
"This is on me."
I think he needs to mature attitudinally; and yes, shouldn't have gone over to opposing fans.
never be a good passer in college or the pros. He cannot throw the ball long with any accuracy. When he is under any kind of pressure, his passing is atrocious. He can run and he is fast so maybe he can be a wide receiver in the pros but he will never be a pro quarterback.
Tate made some good plays today but to say he was amazing after 5 turnovers is a little homerish. I love Tate but let's be somewhat reasonable. He didn't hand OSU the win but he didn't exactly will Michigan to victory either. Now, since I didn't say Tate was the greatest player in history for his performance today, let the negbangs ensue. But seriously, lets be honest. He was a freshman today. He made some great plays and some bad ones as to be expected.
He will be much better for this next year as the OP suggested.
No one's questioning that he's going to be great. For a freshman, he's doing much better than some veteran QBs. Some of us are still pissed at all the turnovers today, but it will pass. Here's hoping for 2010.
The QB position is not set. There will be competition in the offseason. Let's see what happens.
I'm not anointing him 4 year starter, simply saying he has strong potential. If DR or DG can beat him out next year that's fine with me.
The kid's got a good heart and an even better arm, but he's going to have competition next year. The turnovers may hurt his playing time next season with DG and Robinson chomping at the bit. Other than that, I've liked the kid all year long. Must be the confidence he shows.
i don't know what makes anybody think that devin gardner is going to come in here and not be entirely susceptible to the same mistakes tate has made. i do think his size and athleticism allows for some great possibilities at qb and other positions as well but don't be foolish.
1.) If Devin Gardner runs the offense, it will not be the one Tate runs. Totally different skill sets. It will be more like WVU. He won't be asked to make a bunch of throws, just when necessary. Bubble screens, slants, quick outs, hitches, and seam routes would be most everything he would run. Wouldn't be too difficult for him. Tate had to run a more complex passing offense because he's not a running back like Gardner can be.
2.) He's considered the best QB in the nation, considering how much room he has for gains (Which also works against him in the case for him starting right away)
3.) He's a freak athlete. Never count out a freak athlete who can run like a running back and make most of the throws required of him.
4.) Great leadership seen from him so far (Not comparing at all to Tate, this is DG's list)
That's about all I've got until i see him in the spring. Even though I'll be debating this all winter, no point of substance can be made until he gets in camp. If Tate can improve, then he could be a good starter. But I don't see where he'll make big strides, his play looks like it did in HS as far as how he acts out there. Then again, I could be wrong and all he needs is more coaching. Can't really answer that until we get back into Big Ten play next year.
If Gardner doesn't enroll early, you won't see him in the spring. Fall enrollees aren't eligible for spring practice.
As for him being ranked the top QB in the country, keep in mind that 1) this is supposed to be an weaker-than-usual year for QBs and 2) that's a ranking of guys who are high school seniors. Even if his ranking is marginally higher than what Tate's was a year ago, that doesn't matter - he won't be going up against the Tate of 2009, but the Tate of 2010, who has 12 college starts under his belt.
I thought it was concrete that he was enrolling early? Everyone I've heard talk about him has mentioned that. Maybe it was just speculation. Despite this being a weaker year, if you're put up there with the best, then you've got to be pretty good. The whole logic behind my wanting Gardner to start is that A.) I dont really think Tate can get that much better, this is how he looked on tape too, and i dont see a lot of growth room. But, a healthy shoulder will automatically make him better, and B.) Devin runs the WVU offense, not Tate's. I think that complicates the battle because it would be as much a direction issue as a whose better one. Then again I could be wrong, and Tate comes back a different QB.
It's silly to assume that Tate won't get much better. He was a true freshman this year. And given that he is only one year removed from high school, it should be no surprise that he looks a lot like he did for Scripps Ranch. He hasn't been here that long. There's a reason most QBs don't play as freshmen. It's a very difficult position to learn, and the transition from high school to college is huge.
I meant physically. Obviously Mentally there's basically infinite room for growth (In anyone). I'm talking about his instincts, they look like they did in HS, and always will, because that's how hes programmed. That's how we ended up with the drive against ND, and how we ended up with today.
You don't think that an 180 pound 18-19 year old has room to grow (physically)? Ok.
Gardner only mentioned that he was considering enrolling early last week. If he hasn't decided by now, it's pretty much impossible... he can't have enough credits, and he wouldn't be able to do some crazy "drop out, earn a GED and enroll early" scheme because of Michigan state law.
To say that, "you don't know about his deep ball because he has not been able to set his feet ALL YEAR".... is just plain homerism. I have seen COUNTLESS times when he has had time to set his feet and still missed the receiver by 10 yards.... or the ball floated out of bounds.
With Tate, the offense is one dimensional.... "dink and dunk!"
The guy has a "cap gun" for an arm no doubt about it. Moreover, his being so short as to have to constantly run to one side of the field or the other to throw the ball means that Tate is working with half a field. The opposing defense can let the sideline help them defend the field.
Choke on a dick and die.
rather see that than someone who apparently does not comprehend football. To allege that Tate is inaccurate is literally a joke, and instantly disqualifies you from further comment. His future is certainly open, and maybe he won;t pan out, who knows. I think he will. But he is already as accurate RIGHT NOW as a true freshman, as many starting UM QB's have been.
me too. tate did some great things against a tough D. they didn't pound him nearly as much as I feared. he's just got to throw the ball like a D1 athlete. i mean, he was putting up some ducks at some inopportune times. The kid is simply trying to make plays. sometimes he does too much, and thinks he can do things that he can't yet. I've seen the performance he had today several times by Jay Cutler. ultimately, though, i don't see him being nearly as Pick-prone.
also... Roy Roundtree. yes. you are good. love it. can't wait for next year.
if we're not significantly more effective next year, I would start to question Rich Rod's coaching. With continuity on offense, there's just no reason Tate / Roundtree shouldn't be a force to contend with. that's why I really hope Rich Rod will show continued faith in Tate. I'm not saying he is automatically the starter w/o competition... the dude needs to kind of chill out and work hard at getting better. but they've got a spark to work with on offense, and it needs to be nurtured.
that's all. i'm pretty fucking frustrated, like a lot of you, but I'm really trying to be patient and look for any good signs. we had a good chance to win this one, and it got away.
He's a freshman QB. He made some freshman mistakes. He'll be much better next year and we'll see those results.
I think that Forcier showed real leadership by taking the blame for this loss, but it is also why he was making mistakes and throwing into double coverages, etc. He is a Freshman trying to put the team on his shoulders. It was obvious to me that, once his fumble cost us the lead, we were probably (although not necessarily) in trouble. Forcier spent the game playing from behind and trying to make big plays instead of staying within himself, forgiving himself his mistakes and focusing on being an efficient QB.
That said, I really think he took that energy and did some great things; One thing I like about him is that FINALLY we have a QB who can make something happen on a broken play. After decades of watching drop back pro-set QB's take sacks or throw the ball away, we have a kid who can make plays when things turn to shit. As a freshman, we have to expect that sometimes, those plays will turn into mistakes, but I think the reason so many feel so hopeful about Forcier is that he can do things like "the drive" TD against Notre Dame or even some of those throws yesterday to Matthews on the sideline, etc. You look at that and you see promise. As excellent as he was, if Chad Henne could have moved and thrown on the run like Forcier, we'd be sitting on some more National Championship trophies.
On the other hand, I feel like the play calling and the system could have done a much better job of supporting him, of giving him the chance to be patient and forcing him to make plays in fewer situations. The reality is that our running game was really inconsistent because our OL was hurt, makeshift and a work in progress, our best RB was hurt all year and all of that heaped even more pressure on Forcier, which in turn put in him in more situations where he was trying too hard to make plays, to come from behind. Yesterday, we had so many poor calls on second down; dumps into the flat for negative yardage, long throws, etc. If we were able to mix it up a little more, we would have been in better shape. Couple that with a defense that couldn't get off the field for most of the second half of the season and the team was too often chasing the game instead of dictating play.
The game of football is all about controlling yourself and your opposition. As Forcier grows (and grows more patient), as his game management skills get closer to parity with his guts and desire, he could blossom into a special player.
My advice to RR is to get behind his QB and his team leader. I feel that the coach is too petty sometimes; I'm more than willing to give him my patience as he tries to build this team, but if he asks for patience, he better show 10X more than he asks for with his young players. Forcier needs to be taught, needs room to grow and learn from his mistakes and more than that, he needs the confidence of his coach and his teammates. Yanking him after mistakes, throwing on Robinson not as an interesting change-up but as a punitive measure against Forcier, talking about Gardner as being the savior; none of this helps the team. If you're asking everyone to hang in there as we build something, then take your time and build it right. Hand Forcier the keys and bring him along, don't take the privilege of frustration for yourself and ask patience of others. We've just given up two years of a very proud and passionate football program in order that RR can build what is required; build it properly and in line with the values of the program. Stay calm and keep us on track;
Redshirt Gardner, use Robinson in a "wildcat" style system and mix up the play calling, utilize the power running game, move Foricer under center once in a while-- add complexity and dimension to the team without undermining the kid's confidence. If you can build a defense that isn't constantly killing itself, I think we're in good shape for the future. I really like Forcier because I think he is a winner and has character. But throwing the expectations and blame that the entire Michigan Football community is feeling onto his shoulders, doing that after a year like this-- you're missing the point. He needs time and he needs to be taught how to go from being good to being a great leader; RR needs to lead by example here.
This offense is complex, and needs a lot of experience recognizing defenses and running the right play. Brian and the amazing coaches who right diaries have shown that Forcier makes the wrong read lots of times. It seemed like there were a lot of zone read plays yesterday in which Tate handed the ball off when he should have kept it, and would have had room to run it himself. I think another year of practice will help Tate just improve at making the decisions, and avoid handing the ball off only to run into a DE's arms. Tate will also be able to use his experience this year to avoid taking sacks, throwing interceptions, and just in general be better. He may have certain physical limitations, but I think his accuracy and intelligence can make up for it.
Gardner is a great athlete and a perfect fit for the offense, but I think he and the team would be best served by a redshirt. He gets a year to practice and learn the offense while he can avoid the freshman pains of Forcier (and D-Rob, for that matter). I think he should only burn the redshirt if there is an injury to Forcier that causes him to miss a game. Unfortunately, I think Rodriguez will feel the pressure to win next year, and waste Gardner's redshirt for the sake of short-term success.