MSU v. Michigan: Recruiting & Development -- Why do we suck?
Watching the game Saturday was painful, embarassing, and downright demoralizing. All game long we watched Langford, Cook, et. al., shred us, and hear the commentators say, "his only scholarship offers were from school like Indiana, Akron, and other MAC programs," and how they didn't have any interest from Michigan.
Speilman commented specifically on the fact that Michigan has been recruiting at a high level, but that their is no development whatsoever in Ann Arbor, and by contrast, an amazing amount in E. Lansing. Listenting to this was almost more infuriating than watching the game (until Devin threw that explicable shovel-pass INT).
I know, I know, bad coaching. But, I'd like to have a discussion about the "player development" and "motivation" that doesn't devolve into another, "Hoke sucks, fire them all." I agree, he sucks, and that they ALL should be fired. But, more importantly, how does the next coach "pick up the pieces" as this seems to have been an issue at Michigan since before Hoke -- I remember Ted Ginn Sr. commenting on how under Carr player, "never got any better, and/or got injured." It seems we're in the same boat, again.
Coaches, football experts, interested Michigan fans -- why do we suck? What is the key to "player development?" What is this staff missing? Why do other programs (even before Hoke) seem to get so much more out of their players than Michigan does? Is that perception even correct? Is Michigan recruiting soft, coddled players? I am just so beside myself here and searching for answers, and my fear is that even the "next guy" will experience the same issues.
Again, please guys, let's talk about the specifics of development and motivation, not just ripping on the coaches -- again, why do we suck?
October 27th, 2014 at 12:20 PM ^
I agree that the discussion needs to go deeper, but it goes beyond the coaches (specifically Hoke) are in over their heads....I think mindset is lacking. The killer mindset. The "I'm not going to accept anything less than 100% perfection" mindset that seems to be missing. They're great kids, lots of motivation I think, just don't have the 'closer' mentality. I'm not sure where else to start...
October 27th, 2014 at 12:58 PM ^
Anyone can have a "killer" mindset. I've had my fill of bosses whose only way of approaching problems is emotional abuse. That doesn't solve shit. In that sense I'm actually GLAD Hoke isn't demanding his players work themselves to death (well except to keep them in blowouts until they get injured but you'd think the "killer mindset" crowd would be all for that). I'm glad we're not oversigning. I'm glad I went to a school that actually cares about academics and were I superhuman I would happily burn the Big House down if we EVER get the point where we're like a Penn State or Alabama and put football games before basic human decency. Frankly we have enough scandals as it is.
But that isn't to say we can't keep our priorities straight and have success -- or at least something better than mediocrity. Hoke in this sense is completely in over his head. From what I've seen his practices are inefficient, the priorities are screwed up, he sticks to archaic methods in the flying face of reams of stastical evidence to the contrary, he's too loyal to incompetent coaches, he doesn't run a tight ship except to train his players on Ft. Schembechler PR (we'll embarrass ourselves with our antics but by gods we won't talk about it to the press).
I think his success at smaller schools was genuine, but in hindsight it seems he's perfectly suited for rehabilitating programs with nothing to lose, where he can do his thing and the team isn't on everyone's radar. He's too hands-on in areas where he should delegate and delegates where he should assert full control. He kind of strikes me as a likeable if hubris-addled small business owner suddenly in the position of running a major nationwide, publicly owned corporation under high media scrutiny. It's the position he dreamed about but never prepared for. Having immense resources is often a good thing but not if you can't manage them. He can't coach up the D-line while sticking to dinosaur punts and no-headset habits. I like the Heinenger Certainty Principle and frankly he's a damn good D-line coach but FFS running Michigan football isn't a goddamn hobby.
Having a "killer" mindset would do jack squat for a guy who's too busy tweaking the bread recipe when the kitchen's on fire. Everyone likes to focus on the emotional aspect but I think that's the least of our concerns. All we'd get is another red-faced screamer who's still 3-5.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:01 PM ^
mainly because I don't mean a killer mindset in a work harder sense, but in a work smarter one. I don't disagree with much of what you said, I guess I just said it wrong. And the mindset I'm talking about goes more towards the coaching, not the players. I know their level of effort is not lacking, its the direction its been coached to go I take issue with.
October 27th, 2014 at 2:09 PM ^
We're on the same page. But I had to speak up because I see way to much "doer" crap these days which is equated to "be an asshole". I see people worshipping sociopaths and screamers and thinking positive thoughts like "that guy gets it done!" instead of "that person is insane". Nothing against you, just a personal peeve of mine.
I think Hoke is putting in his best effort but mostly by just doing the things he's always been doing when he needs to adopt a more self-critical approach. I feel the biggest misunderstanding in modern U.S. culture is the notion of mutual exclusivity between criticism and confidence. Tom Brady, to name one favorite Wolverine, just oozes confidence. The dude thinks he's best, knows he's best and went into Lloyd Carr's office to tell his coach he's going to show him he's the best. But he did so by being extremely critical of himself. The guy is a goddamn perfectionist and always thinking one step ahead. Hoke talks about "we have to coach better" but it just doesn't feel like there's any plan behind that platitude. Coach what, Hoke?
I was a huge believer in Devin Gardner and think he'd been dealt a bad hand, but I think his problems reflect Hoke's -- they're both hard workers but their approach reminds me of the MLB teams looking for "five tool" players and focusing on batting average back when Beane was tearing up the league with Moneyball tactics (until everyone else caught on). Best-in-country talent that gets destroyed by the league's cast-offs because they're being developed like it's 1980. Youth is not this team's problem.
October 27th, 2014 at 3:16 PM ^
Coach Bo didn't put up with bullshit and that attitude matriculated it's way into the ranks. Coach Moeller, and Coach Carr were able to maintain 'Michigan' but then came the disconnect late with Coach Carr and beginning with Coach Rod. Between that and the infighting and the messed up recruiting classes it's gone and needs to be built up again. Brady is a good guy and loves his players like sons but that's a part of the problem. Whoever is brought in here needs to bring some iron with him, along with X's and O's knowledge.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:23 PM ^
some of it is recognizing the right type of player for the scheme, teaching proper techniques for the scheme, and a lot of it is being loyal to bad coaches to a fault.
Everyone says they love Fred Jackson, but who was the last legitimate RB UM has had? Chris Perry?
October 27th, 2014 at 12:27 PM ^
Not sure what you mean by "legitimate," but, ummm... Mike Hart was kind of good.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:34 PM ^
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October 27th, 2014 at 12:38 PM ^
Per wikipedia:
Rushing Receiving Season Team GP Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD 2004 Michigan 12 282 1,455 5.2 34 9 26 237 9.1 39 1 2005 Michigan 8 150 662 4.4 64 4 16 154 9.6 34 1 2006 Michigan 13 318 1,562 4.9 54 14 17 125 7.4 31 0 2007 Michigan 10 265 1,361 5.1 61 14 8 50 6.3 11 0 Career totals 43 1,015 5,040 5.0 64 41 67 566 8.4 39 2
So...no?
EDIT: Sorry about the color of the headings. Not sure how to change that.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:45 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 12:26 PM ^
Can peppars play qb. Somebody on the team has to better than him. Its not even competitive
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October 27th, 2014 at 12:29 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 12:33 PM ^
I am not saying they're playing a "bunch of scrubs" and I know they're doing well in recruiting -- but they're still not to the level that Michigan is "on paper."
I think we might be in a similar situation to what Texas was in a few years back -- too many soft, coddled, overrated players coupled with lack of development when they arrive on campus.
October 27th, 2014 at 4:55 PM ^
they have definitely started to recruit better the last 4 or 5 years but I don't know if I'd say their roster is littered with 4 star guys. At least according to rivals by recruiting class they have:
10 - 1 five star, 4 four stars
11 - 2 four stars
12 - 3 four stars
13 - 3 four stars
14 - 1 five star, 6 four stars
That's 2 five stars and 18 four stars. That's just under 25% of their roster.
By comparison over the same time UM has:
10 - 6 four stars
11 - 6 four stars
12 - 2 five stars, 10 four stars
13 - 1 five star, 16 four stars
14 - 1 five star, 6 four stars
October 27th, 2014 at 12:29 PM ^
HS kids aren't fully developed - we shouldn't be taking Juniors in HS unless they are can't miss -
October 27th, 2014 at 12:33 PM ^
If every other school was having the same problems, I'd agree. But everyone does this, so I highly doubt that's just what is wrong with Michigan.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:35 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 12:54 PM ^
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October 27th, 2014 at 2:35 PM ^
BIG difference.
players at Michigan are already Legends.
#98
/drops mic
October 27th, 2014 at 12:46 PM ^
jourdan lewis, frank clark, desmond morgan, taylor lewan, michael scholfield, joe bolden, jeremy gallon beg to differ. im sure im missing some too.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:57 PM ^
Agreed. We have A LOT of extremely talented players who are working their hardest day in and day out. However, they aren't being given the proper coaching to take them to the next level. We have very little progression in our units during games or even throughout the year and its almost non-existent in skill positions such as QB, RB, and WR. We definitely need someone who wants to destroy the opponents and is willing to get rough about it. This does not have to be an asshole such as Dantonio. I believe coaches can be likeable while demanding perfection from their team.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:45 PM ^
Did anyone else notice Morris and Gardner and other players laughing/joking/having fun on the sidelines this weekend? It pisses me off. When you're losing to one of your biggest rivals and your having a great ol' time on the sidelines, it just seems clear the mentality of this team is not right. They should be fucking pissed, not only for this loss but every loss. I feel the fans are more pissed than the players during these losing games, and that's not right.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:50 PM ^
They don't owe you shit.
The fans are pissed because we're worthless parasites who think we know everything. Why should the players care about winning when their coach clearly doesn't?
They were undoubtedly pissed off after the game. Furthermore, I for one was always much more upset after a narrow loss than after a pounding.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:00 PM ^
I think "the fans" need a menacing spokesperson to enter the locker room, utter an "This can all go away" and walk out.
I see this attitude far too often. If people didn't care about football, there goes all the scholarships, all the BMOC stature, all the celebrity.
October 27th, 2014 at 4:50 PM ^
but also, all these guys were offered a free education to one of the worlds best universities with the expressed purpose to play football for one of the greatest programs ever and to play well.
I wish someone on the team acted pissed that they all sucked at football so much. Maybe they're just numb to it at this point
October 27th, 2014 at 6:47 PM ^
It's just a statistic, right?
October 27th, 2014 at 12:47 PM ^
See, it's not any one thing. It's a lot of things that add up to what we saw on the field Saturday.
Does MSU develop talent better than we do? Absolutely, but that's not the only answer. It's a lot of things, I'll list several:
1. Player Development is better at MSU
2. MSU is better at finding the 2 and 3 star recruits that are very overlooked and maybe are way more talented than their rankings. SUre they offer a lot of the guys we get, but they still ending up getting guys that are really good too.
3. The rankings aren't as accurate as they seem.
4. MSU has a stable program, they can red shirt 90% of their freshmen, so even though they are playing a lot of sophomores nd juniors, most of them are 3rd or 4th year guys.
5. Strength and Conditioning. I question our S&C program, MSU fans and basically everyone else rave about thiers.
6. Sure we out recruit them, but not as badly as it is portrayed. It's not like they only get 2 and 3 star guys, they get more 4 star guys than 2 star guys and their avere star ranking is usually 0.3 to 0.4 stars behind us, this isn't like our average recruit is a 3.6 star and theirs is a 2.2 star, we're talking 3.5-3.6 to 3.1-3.2. See point 3 as to why this might even be within the margin of error.
That's what football is though, rarely do you win just by doing one thing better than someone else, you have to win by being a little bit better at most things than someone else.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:47 PM ^
When I see the OL from Wisonsin, Nebraska, etc I see men out there. Our OL still looks like a bunch of fat high school kids. Yes I have seen pictures of Green shirtless and such but great physique does not always equal football strength. I see our front seven getting pushed around and I think this comes from poor technique and lack of overall strength. It starts in the winter and summer programs and I hope one area that is changed is the weight room.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:51 PM ^
Not only did you contradict yourself, but you might want to see a different optometrist.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:57 PM ^
I've always thought Wellman is just a bro pedalling bro science. The Jersey Shore guys look good with their shirts off. The before and after pics mean nothing.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:58 PM ^
Yep. I think everyone can pretty much agree something serious lacking in terms of off-season conditioning based on the lack of development we have seen last few years from the bowl game to the spring game, and from the spring game to the first game in the fall. There just hasn't been any progress from a physicality standpoint.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:48 PM ^
Brady Hoke, I think, coddles the players too much. While MSU trains their players to be fighting dogs. The end product is obvious on the field.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:50 PM ^
I think people underestimate how we have a lot of poor to average position coaches. Its the least talked about thing in college football. Harbaugh basically said you cannot have 1 weak link on your staff and he fired guys that Hoke would consider "wildly successful."
IMO Mallory, Funk, and Jackson would not be on another Power 5 conference staff outside of maybe Wake Forest, Kansas, or something like that.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:26 PM ^
I think it's also a problem that Hoke doesn't employ a quarterback coach on his staff. He had one on staff at SDSU and Ryan Lindley developed into a pretty good player. At Michigan he's let the OC handle QB coaching duties to much less impressive results.
October 27th, 2014 at 2:46 PM ^
I think last year we were confused and thought it was the play calling that was the issue. We thought guys looked lost and confused because the calls were not putting them into a position to succeed, or that we hadn't practiced any one thing consistently to be comfortable doing it in the game. I'm convinced now that the real reason is exactly what you say. Our guys use bad technique and get beat in one on one battles at every position. There is nothing the play calling can do when receivers drop passes, run bad routes, o-line misses blocks or gets flat out blown upp, qb can't make an easy throw, and RB can't find a hole unless he lucks into one, etc. These are all the things that you're supposed to fix in the off season, but they're clearly not getting the coaching to do it.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:51 PM ^
Here's one thing. When I see the videos in August of us doing the "Michigan" drill or whatever you want to call it - I mean the drill with one offensive player, usually a linemen or tight end (sometimes WR), blocking one defensive player, usually a lineman or LB (sometimes DB), while a ball carrier tries to zoom past - I see Hoke walking from one station to the next. He has a whistle. When he gets to the next group, he blows the whistle, and they spring into action and go.
Now, I had always assumed that this was staged for the cameras. But now I'm thinking maybe it's not. I had assumed it's staged because that's a TERRIBLE way to run practice. WAY too many guys just standing around for too much of the time. If they're just standing there, waiting for Hoke to walk up to them before they go, that's ridiculous. That's a waste of a huge chunk of practice time.
So that might be one factor hindering our development.
Caveats: 1) I still think it might just be staged that way for the cameras. I hope so. 2) I'm not a football coach. Maybe football's different. But I've been to Duke, Michigan, Syracuse and other high-level basketball practices, and one thing that separates those practices from HS practices is that the coaches know how to use the time. The players are almost never standing around. They're always doing something. Always, you know, practicing.
Just my thought.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:03 PM ^
I coached HS football for a number of years and our team did this drill in much the same way every year. It's a fall camp thing.
It kind of is for show but it's also for fun/bragging rights/ team comradery. There are teaching points that can come out of it but it's not a regular thing (that I know of) for most teams.
If you're looking for an example of poor coaching or development, this wouldn't be the place.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:19 PM ^
While I am sure college practices are more intense for obvious reasons, good high school basketball coaches often have their practices mapped out to the minute. You just can't waste time in life
October 27th, 2014 at 3:14 PM ^
Good HS coaches, yes. Absolutely. But there are plenty of bad HS coaches out there. The majority, really, aren't what I would call "good," at least not at basketball in terms of college-level "good" (most are, in my opinion, good at helping young men grow up, caring about their students and athletes, etc. - not trying to call anyone out here).
And the point isn't about mapping things out to the minute. The point is that everyone should be involved in every drill, moving and repping and _practicing_ for every minute, as much as possible. NOT standing around watching other players practice, not standing around listening to the coach talk, not standing around period.
October 27th, 2014 at 6:53 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 12:53 PM ^
Offensive line. We can't move the ball on the ground or protect the quarterback. Our defense is improving and will continue to improve if we can address the safety position. However, until we have an offensive line that can do anything well we are going to be a disaster. You may be able to survive with one weak link on your offensive line but when they literally cannot do anything well you are dead in the water.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:04 PM ^
Please stop with the defensive improvement.
Each time facing a legit offense they are mediocre. And always give up drives at the end of each first half to put a stake into Michigan.
Utah they gave up 28. Minnesota 31. Purdue gave up 38 to Minnesota! Illinois beat Minnesota! And gave up less points.
Notre Dame 31. Notre Dame it was 21 pts before UM had a single turnover.
MSU they played decent but Cook was off on some passes - if he was on they could have had 50 pts. PSU is a tire fire offense no different than UM.
Rutgers suckssssss and we gave up 400 yards to Nova.
Enough with this defense is legit and improving. Its wholly mediocre. It has plenty of experience and was spposed to be "the 2nd best unit in the Big 10". I dont care what the stats say, when you watch it it cannot get off the field on 3rd down, it gives up long drives, when teams are 1 dimensional (Minn with the run, Rutgers with the pass) it cannot even stop that 1 dimension.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:13 PM ^
Utah took a punt back to the house, so that was 21, Minnesota got a pick-six, so that is 24, State had a pick six and a garbage time score, so that is basically 21. And our offense did not get into the red zone against Notre Dame. I am not saying they are world beaters but they play well enough for this team to win if they could score ANY points EVER and not commit ball-crushing turnover at the worst possible times.
The end of the half touchdown thing is a thing, I will give you that, but I think the scheme is the problem there. They never even attempt to put any pressure on the QB.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:54 PM ^
The coaching staff is MAC level outside of Mattison. Hoke talks about tradition too much. Before every meeting he asks the players what team it is and how many Big Ten championships we've won. These players have accomplished NOTHING and shouldn't even be associated with past teams. Every team should be team 1 with 0 championships. The players are told they deserve to win right when they step into Schembechler (win wall, legends jerseys, etc.) and it's made them soft. RR was criticized for not talking about tradition or the Ohio State game and said that we would win when we deserve to win. I like that attitude much more and hope the next guy never mentions that we are the all time winningest program or number of championships, covers the win wall with a tarp, gets rid of the legends jerseys, etc.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:12 PM ^
You, and others, say "MAC level coaching" as if the MAC sucks. I think you're way off base in that assessment, although I know what you're trying to say.
I think if you took the top coaches from the MAC right now, transplanted them in AA, we'd be better off than we are. I just want to know how/why players aren't developing. Is there something that the coaching staff is/isn't doing that is the key? Why do players on other teams seem to get better all the time, yet ours stagnate and seem to even get worse?
October 27th, 2014 at 1:23 PM ^
You, and others, say "MAC level coaching" as if the MAC sucks. I think you're way off base in that assessment, although I know what you're trying to say.
I agree.
MAC level coaching isn't bad... which is why Hoke was sub .500 there also.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:32 PM ^
I would bet every coach in the MAC wants to move up a level. These guys got hired by Hoke to coach in the MAC and since he's a loyal guy and personally likes them he kept them around even though he probably could have upgraded some of them. His job isn't to protect his buddies. His job is to win games. Hoke might have been able to hide is incompetence if he had a great coaching staff below him but he refused to let anybody go and now they will all be out of a job.
October 27th, 2014 at 2:24 PM ^
That's really the root of it all. Funk spent one year with Hoke at Ball State, then two years at SDSU. Michigan is the first time that Funk-developed kids were really relied upon, and look at the last two years.
Hoke's 2008 12-0 (reg season) Ball State team, the jewel of his resume, had an OL that was not very Funk developed.
October 27th, 2014 at 2:06 PM ^
I agree. Hoke focuses so much on the legends of the past that I think the players still believe if they put the helmet on the others teams will immediately grovel and fall down in fear. The fans can live in the past and remember traditions but the players cannot. It is time to start over at Year 0 and play football in the 21st Century.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:57 PM ^
Also want to point out MSU's star RB is Langford - a guy who was not recruited as a RB. Their star WR Lippett was not recruited as a WR. He was indeed a CB early at MSU. A guy like Lawrence Thomas moved from LB to FB to DT. So what does it say about MSU staff? They find a spot for guys that fit those guys. They just dont go with where they played in HS. If where they try the guy at first doesnt work they move him somewhere else.
Meanwhile we have 4 star recruits at WR and RB (or 5 stars) and DT who dont perform like those guys.
Contrast that to Josh Furman who looked like a pylon here at S. He changes schools, and in 1 offseason becomes effective. At a different position. They put on some pounds on him, and made him a "light" LB who is very effective.
Maybe that is what Dymonte Thomas should be. He is a pylon as a S. Maybe he should have put on 15 lbs and be a fleet footed 215 lb LB. MSU has those type of players. But do you trust this staff to do such a thing?
There are a lot of issues - its not just 1 thing. A lot of small decisions that add up to success or not success.