MSU PSA
In recent years, every time the Spartans are mentioned, people are always quick to mention that "Sparty doesn't matter" or "Sparty got lucky." At some point, we have to see this as denial and recognize that Sparty is in fact a good program right now, and a strong rival who currently has the upper hand. Stating that we "don't care" in threads of 180+ posts seems silly and juvenile, and frankly, it serves the opposite purpose that the posters intend.
Bullet points:
1. Dantonio, while a douche, is a good coach whether we like it or not.
2. Dontonio is a massive douchey douche douche
3. MSU at this stage is a more stable program than UM
4. This is becoming a strong rivalry, and I look forward to the future with it
4. Michigan will be back
5. I think Dantonio has changed the tide on the rivalry. Hell people in Ann Arbor are starting to believe him. Never in a million years I would have thought that. Forcing posters into message board denial is a good start.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:08 AM ^
We don't care.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:15 AM ^
Which is why we look absurd. It's hard to mock the RCMB when so many of our fans live in a fantasy land of delusion where SPARTY NO! is still a thing and Dantonio is still an average coach at best.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:36 AM ^
from Sparty No last night, when Cousins fumbled on the last drive
but I agree with you, it will be a good rivalry for several years. At least beating them will get us some recognition now, rather than getting their best shot and no one caring nationally bc Sparty sucks. Also good for the state of M
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:54 PM ^
I thought that fumble was going to complete a new version of Sparty No where they allow Wisconsin to score 17-21 straight unanswered in the 4th but then there was a Bielema No and they pulled it out. Sparty still flirts with Sparty No, but Dantonio has them above it
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
October 23rd, 2011 at 6:40 PM ^
Sparty No! Is still a thing, they almost blew it last night. Just because they were fortunate enough to win doesn't erase 10 years of MSU spartying all over themselves. As for Dantonio? Well now his record is like 4-10 against the Top 25, they're a solid/great team this year but for most people I think they still need 1 more 8-9 win season to be considered a solid program. And he's still looking for his first Bowl win there as well.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:16 AM ^
We is the incorrect word here. Looking at the board it would seem that this is a State blog. This place has become Little Brotherish.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:11 AM ^
All truth right now. Their defense is seriously mean and basically strangled (literally and figuratively) Michigan for 60 minutes. They and Wisconsin are the class of the Big 10 this season and a probably going to meet again for the right to play in the Rose Bowl.
On the plus side, barring Michigan winning out, this should mean the Big 10 only gets one BCS team this season and is correspondingly more competitive in its other bowls. I really don't want to see a Big 10 team get murdered by the loser of 'Bama and LSU.
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:19 PM ^
the thought behind your plus side - this is not the year to get a second B1G BCS berth. However, does it not now appear that if both Sparty and Bucky win out to the B1G championship, the loser of that game may end up in a second BCS berth?
October 23rd, 2011 at 6:51 PM ^
I doubt it, MSU has an ugly loss to what will probably be a weak 8-4 ND team at best, and Wisky would have 2 losses to MSU. I doubt that gets you in over OSU if they lose against OU, or Oregon if their only losses are to undefeated Stanford and LSU. I mean really there's probably only going to be 1 At-Large bid this year and with the Big Ten not being that strong I doubt we get 2
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:13 AM ^
I don't care about MSU but they are legit and to see people dismiss them regularly shows how delusional they are.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:00 PM ^
So was NM being esoteric when he praised Cesare Borgia?
Answer this (along with follow up questions about Romulus, Theseus WRT Cesare) intelligently and I'll respect your bit of Latin. FWIW (zero).
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
I think you're spot on. I look forward to the next few years and the rivalry growing.
Now about the success of Dantonio, speak to me when MSU t-shirts start selling in Ann Arbor. Never in a million years do I think MSU jerseys will sell in Ann Arbor.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:17 AM ^
Truth. We have to respect them. As long as they are little brother they have the ability to surprise. Once we stare them down, we can figure them out
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:28 AM ^
We ought to acknowledge that their footbal team is playing well, that doesn't mean we have to respect them.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:18 AM ^
They have definitely had good teams for the past couple seasons, but I don't know how much their program has changed in the long run. I'd think it's very hard to lose at least a good share of top prospects to us, OSU and ND yearly and still maintain success. Dantonio might keep averaging 8-9-10 wins per season, but that also means he'd be a prime candidate for a better situation elsewhere (as long as that program had no illusions about the type of players suiting up for their team).
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:19 AM ^
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:25 AM ^
The best case scenario involves OSU keeping Fickell. I don't want either Meyer or Dantonio in Columbus. Dantonio is a good coach, but the institutional limitations at MSU still constrain him. Witness how we're dominating on the recruiting trail. We will field more talented teams than MSU in the future, even if he's there. That's not necessarily the case regarding OSU.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:27 AM ^
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:14 PM ^
is that MSU continues to recruit thugs, puts a good/great team on the field year in and year out, we recruit Hoke guys and beat them year in and year out.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:19 AM ^
Sparty is only stable because of their head coach who is sure to leave soon for greener pastures
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:21 AM ^
I feel like he's getting kind of old though to still be jumping around.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:31 AM ^
He's already had a heart attack and signed his lifetime contract. I think he'll stay. If OSU calls, he'll probably be very interested, but I don't know where else he might go. What high profile jobs are opening up this offseason? Maybe Georgia?
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:04 PM ^
He would gladly take the osu job even if they were sanctioned.
October 23rd, 2011 at 5:15 PM ^
of a pasture could he be in?
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:23 AM ^
I honestly do not care about MSU at all. Good for them on winning last night but I only concern myself with them the week we play them. Typically this is the approach the national media takes as well. If they can close out the year, then they will start to get some respect. IF!
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:23 AM ^
there is much iron in the words of chief chunkums. see the eagle soar in the heavens above his message.
and no i am not trolling or flamebaiting.
chunks is my SO
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:25 AM ^
Sparty is a good program now.
The problem is, they have been 'good' before. It is usually for a few years, and they either self destruct or their coach leaves. If Dantonio stays for the next 2 decades without problems, they can elevate the program. Who wants to bet on that? MSU still, for most coaches, is a transitional job. Does anyone want to put money if Dantonio got offered the OSU job, he wouldn't leave town in a heart beat?
Additionally, how good they are is still suspect, considering both Michigan and OSU are at their nadir. If OSU gets Meyer, Hoke keeps improving Michigan...how good will MSU be? For example, even this year, would they be better than OSU if they still had Tressel and Pryor? I have my doubts.
So give them credit...right now they are the best team in the Big 10. I just don't know what that means in the grand scheme of things.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:30 AM ^
I guess this is legitimate, but when it comes to next year at least, they'll probably be even better considering that they get almost everyone back. This is especially true if Worthy stays. In the future, however, I'm not so sure I can see Dantonio jumping ship. He's starting to get a bit too old to be jumping around from job to job.
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:21 PM ^
certainly go pro and cousins, cunningham and a host of others are graduating
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:28 AM ^
I agree with a lot of your points, but I think a lot of people believe that MSU has never proven they can sustain successes. I think right now MSU, as well as a lot of other programs including Wisconsin, and maybe even Iowa are taking good advantage of a few key programs shooting themselves in the foot (Mich, OSU, ND). I think ND showed that once they get out of their own why, they can’t lose to a team like MSU. I believe in another year or two, the Michigan vs. MSU game will start to resemble the MSU vs. ND game of this year. But right now you’re right, they are on top and we’ve got some catching up to do. Next year they lose a lot of key players on that defense as well as their best two options on offense (Cousins, Cunningham). Let’s see if they can replace some of these guys. My guess is no!
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:32 AM ^
Cousins and Cunningham is it though right? I'm pretty sure they return their entire line and all of their backs. Also, they really don't lose that much on D at all.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:41 AM ^
Worthy might leave for the NFL, meaning MSU would lose their three best players. I know a lot of people here don't think he's that good, but he's really good. A high first round grade may convince him to leave town.
Also, Cousins makes that offense go. We've seen how big the dropoff can be for even the most talented teams when the QB situation isn't right. I'm not sure Cousins's backup is going to be the same level of player.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:43 AM ^
Cousins is a huge loss, but the OL should be a huge gain considering how poorly they play at times. I see their backs doing a lot more to help the young QB.
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:05 PM ^
Yeah unless you can name a receiver and QB that’s ready to step in and pick up where Cousins and Cunningham left off. Don’t worry I’ll wait… and as the defense goes do you really believe that Worthy is coming back next year because I don’t. All I’m saying is there will be a slight drop off next year at some key positions. They got lucky with Cousins but can they do it again with the next QB. My guess is NO!
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:09 PM ^
Cousins and Cunningham is it though right? I'm pretty sure they return their entire line and all of their backs.
Basically their entire passing game will be gone - Cousins, their top three wide receivers (Cunningham, Martin, Nichol) and their top tight end (Linthicum). So they not only have to replace their QB, but find new receiving targets. They also lose their starting center (Foreman) and I think one other lineman. There might also be a chance Baker will take a look at the NFL Draft, if he finishes the season strongly.
October 23rd, 2011 at 5:56 PM ^
Foreman is the RG....they have a RS Frosh starting at C - Travis Jackson - who handled Mike Martin a lot better than I thought he would. He's good. Their next qb Maxwell is probably better than Cousins skill wise, definitely more mobile and has a better arm. he'll be the starter for 2012 and 2013 barring injury or some miracle underclassman. Bennie Fowler was supposed to be their big #2 WR this year but I don't know that he's played. not sure why. he's good though. They have some talent in the pipes, but it's not like they'll reload like Wisky does with their O-line.
The big concern for the rest of the conference should be that there is only one Senior on that starting Defense (the safety Robinson) - they are very young and going to get a lot better. It's time to admit that D is for real.
The good thing is that I think next year we have Gardner full time at QB and a real Pro Style offense that can ram the ball down their throats and a better D that will scare the new kids on the block.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:36 AM ^
Monte Ball had just this side of 7 yards a carry last night. It's not like he had an outlier 80 yarder in there to pump up the average either. A mean defense doesn't let anyone do that to them on their home field. State is a good team in a down league at this point. Wisconsin with that pass rush and lack of speed on defense was going to be the Big Ten's BCS golden child? Really?
Give State their due. They shouldn't be blamed for taking care of business. Plus, how bad other teams are isn't their problem. We wouldn't quibble if Michigan were undefeated in the league right now.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:36 AM ^
On the sword. You'll probably get negged a thousand times but it's the truth. We need to give them credit, look inward and move on already.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:39 AM ^
We lost to them, it sucks, get over it. We don't just not care about them because its rare to lose 4 in a row, we don't care about them because we have Ohio State.
Nobody cares that we lost to MSU in 1969 and if we beat Ohio State this year, nobody will care about it this year either. To hell with State, start focusing on the games ahead.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
Says the guy with the defaced Spartan avatar. If there was ever an outward symbol of the exact denial I'm talking about, you are it.
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:42 PM ^
for the "touche" moments.
methinks I've got another!
October 23rd, 2011 at 1:36 PM ^
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know having an amusing picture as my avatar was the equivelant of making the 30th thread about MSU this week. Every time somebody makes a thread about MSU, we become more like them by constantly talking about them like they do us. Its been 8 days since the game and half the threads on the sidebar are in some way about MSU and not a single one of them says anything new or insightful about them and contains anything that hasn't been discussed to death already.
MSU has a good team this year, they beat us, and they took advantage of Wisconsin's mistakes to beat them and get into the driver's seat. Good for them, let's talk about Purdue.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
..the chips these past few seasons have ALWAYS fallen for 'em the right way. Last season - weak B10 schedule (no OSU I believe), a big win over Wisconsin and a terrible loss to Iowa and they whine about not going to Rose.
This season they've passed the gauntlet so far with B10 teams but let's not forget that Gholston should've been suspended during the Michigan game (changes that game in many ways), that they narrowly escaped OSU and that they just got the tip of a lifetime to beat Wisconsin on the last play.
They are a solid team but they've gotten the breaks. They've lived on the edge for three straight weeks. That will end soon. I am predicting a loss to Nebraska (at Nebraska mind you) and a potential let-down to another B10 team before all said and done. Just watch. This team plays on the knife's edge and will get cut before long.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:50 AM ^
There is, as always, a middle ground between the extreme positions.
MSU has a good team this year. This does not surprise me. I didn't understand why people here kept selling them short in the offseason. Dantonio's a defensive-minded guy, so you have to expect them to be competent on that side of the ball most years. The variable is offense. Right now, they have an excellent QB in Kirk Cousins - and he has a lot of skilled talent to throw to. At one point in the fourth quarter yesterday, he was 14-17 passing. Cousins seems to have a little Tom Brady in him, where he doesn't get rattled and seems to play well when it matters most. They also have a fine pair of backs in Baker/Bell, and some quality talent on the defensive side of the ball. I didn't expect MSU to beat Wisconsin, but I did think it would be a competitive game, and none of their other games has really surprised me.
Having said all that, I'll be surprised if MSU can keep this up. They have a good team right now, but they are not an established program. You can see that in the way that Hoke stepped in and promptly went 10 for 10 or whatever against them in recruiting. Spartan Stadium is a smallish concrete eyesore that only sells out for some games. The practice facilities are so-so. Dantonio himself is paid less than Tom Izzo. MSU has been viewing itself as a basketball school over the past decade. An MSU coach still has to work much harder than a U-M coach in recruiting. In the recent past, they've benefitted from a combination of factors:
1. John L. Smith, while a disaster in most aspects, recruited some solid offensive talent (including Cousins, who committed before JLS was fired).
2. Dan Enos, MSU's lead recruiter in Detroit until 2011, recruited the city unsually well for MSU. In addition, the coach at Southeastern HS steered kids to MSU.
3. Rich Rodriguez's arrival at U-M gave MSU "brand differentiation". When Carr was here, Dantonio had to sell his program as basically a watered-down version of U-M. When RR was here, Dantonio could stress that his program was the one that emphasized defense and power running. Edwin Baker, for instance, was apparently a guy that was favoring us before the coaching change, and then he ended up at MSU.
4. The simple fact that U-M hasn't been good. Anytime we're weak, that creates an opening.
These have changed. Cousins and the remaining JLS guys are gone. Enos is at CMU now, and the Detroit Southeastern coach has been fired. We now have Hoke and will return to our philosophical roots. The final step for us is #4: winning on the field.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:51 AM ^
This is all true, but even with the dip in recruiting due to various coaching changes, I still think they'll be a solid 7-9 win team with Dantonio, and not a gimmie like they had been under JLS and Bobby Williams. Also, JLS didn't recruit defense for crap, so that says something about Dantonio and the gang.
October 23rd, 2011 at 11:59 AM ^
I can buy that, but a Michigan program operating at full strength shouldn't be too worried about 7-5-caliber opponents. I don't think MSU will be much more than that in the long run. Most years they'll be an underdog against Michigan and Nebraska, and OSU/PSU whenever they play - and Iowa is no gimmie (in fact, Iowa's had their number lately).
It's true JLS didn't recruit much on defense. I think that defensive talent can be masked by coaching to a somewhat higher degree than on offense. Even if you lack defensive talent, if you can just get your 11 players to communicate together, understand their responsibilities and be technically sound, you'll be decent defensively. On offense, OTOH, if your QB is poor, there's not much you can do.
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:22 PM ^
JM -- I normally like your posts on this board, but have to call you on this one. You're attributing part of MSU's recent successes to John L Smith?! Really?? While I agree that the rest of the B1G is down, MSU is doing some things to take advantage of the situation. IMO, the past 5 years under Dantonio haven't been an aberration. His recruiting has been fairly consistent (top20-top30) each year and this upcoming year is looking no different. He is consistently placing 4th and 5th in the B1G in recruiting each year. Most of the "stars" on this team are 2 and 3 star guys that are OSU rejects anyway (Marcus Rush, Denicos Allen, Cousins with no D-1 offers, etc) so I don't see that changing very much.
Also, once Hoke has a year or 2 under his belt with his guys, I really think the MSU/UM game rivalry will be 6-4 or 5-5 over a span of 10 years. As long as there are competent coaches on both sides of the ball, this won't be a runaway rivalry like it has been at times IMO
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:28 PM ^
I'm not attributing a big part of the success to JLS, but he did leave some offensive talent to plug holes while Dantonio was getting his feet wet. Cousins, Ringer, Dell, Gantt - those guys were/are pretty solid. If the offense had been as lacking on talent as the defense was when Dantonio got there, those first few seasons would have been a lot worse.
I'm not going to go so far as to predict that Michigan will rip off a bunch of wins in a row in the series, but I think it will return to where it was in the late '80s/'90s, where we won about two-thirds of the time. The two schools are now largely recruiting the same types of players and - so far, anyway, those players are choosing Michigan.
October 23rd, 2011 at 12:32 PM ^
Fair points JMB, even if I disagree with some.
But I haven't heard you address the elephant in the room - i.e., even if M is getting most of those players, it may not matter as much given Dantonio's track record for developing 2 and 3 star talent. Any thoughts on that theory?