Mike Gundy vs Michigan- Coaching Philosophy
As UM fans we have grown up under the mantra of toughness and hard work as taught to us by Bo Schembechler. It has been very good to us, but I thought it interesting when I heard about Oklahoma St only using half of their alloted practice time during the year. It made no sense to me and I thought it must have been a mistake but this latest article seems to indicate the same thing and it also says they never tackle to the ground. Obviously Oklahoma St is out performing their talent so it has worked for them, but it just seems so crazy.
I give him credit for out of the box thinking, but I won't say he's built a better mouse trap until he fixes that defense. Maybe offense works with minimal hitting, but defense doesn't? I don't know and we won't be finding out at Michigan anytime soon. I think Heiko should ask Hoke if he thinks tackling is a waste of time.
What do you make of this?
December 28th, 2011 at 1:49 PM ^
I think its interesting that they basically never tackle in spring ball. I think it helps that they play in the Big12 which is basically flag football / 7 on 7 league. I mean Neb was known as one of the toughest teams with great D and they bolted for the Big Ten. After them nobody really hangs their hat on D in that conference. I'm sure someone will through some Big12 D stats at me which is fine, but that conferences Defenses don't pass the eyeball test thats for sure.
From what the coaches have done this year and the tackling job that our D has done (which leads to forced fumbles) I say i like Hoke and Mattison's preference for hard hitting practices. It can lead to injuries but thats why we need to recruit at a UM level (top 5 top 10 nationally).
December 28th, 2011 at 2:14 PM ^
I have no evidence of this at all but I would guess that the lack of practice helps kids maintain their speed over the course of the season. When Denard got beaten up last year (and the middle of this one), you could see he lost just a little bit of his dilithium and he became average. On the other hand, Kevin Smith, a middling-at-best NFL back, becomes All-Pro caliber (before injury) when he comes in mid-season, but fresh and fast.
December 28th, 2011 at 1:58 PM ^
Approves
December 28th, 2011 at 2:12 PM ^
I'm not sure the defense needs to be fixed. It is #1 in FEI, #15 in S&P, and 51st in yards per play allowed. They're also 114th in time of possession, fwiw.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:23 PM ^
I think yards per play is a relevant stat because the tempo of teams and the effect the offense has on the defense can be so large, so being 51st is not something to write home about. It is decent but not great.
The FEI is interesting. I am a big believer in a lot of the advanced stats because I think so many of the traditional ones don't tell an accurate story because of schedule differentials, the effect of turnovers and the ability of your own offense. With that being said OSU being #1 in FEI defense only gives people that say "stats are for losers and nerds" more firepower because that is nuts. I watch a lot of college football and that defense is not #1 in anything. Maybe they'll prove me wrong when the playoffs start...oh wait they get to play Stanford in some meaningless piece of shit bowl game so they will never get the chance to prove it. Pretty interesting though thanks for posting. FEI has Miami #1 in offense and OSU #1 in defense. Looks like it is time to go back to the drawing board for that formula.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:07 PM ^
in their defensive stats.
Total D - 107
Scoring D - 60
Passing D - 102
Not exactly the model to follow.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:13 PM ^
Those stats are meaningless without looking at the bigger picture.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:34 PM ^
by "advanced stats" guys. 107th in total D is pretty bad. That's like Gerg's Michigan.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:53 PM ^
They gave up .07 yards per play more than Michigan. Is that one of the "advanced stats" that I've been brainwashed by?
107th in total D, again, is a completely meaningless statistic.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:37 PM ^
If you're talking about scoring, I don't think it is meaningless. I like the efficiency rankings, but according to the defensive FEI's, Rutgers and Illinois have top 5 defenses. Maybe they're good, but I don't know about that good. I don't think you can get the full picture w/ any one particular stat, so I agree with you that much.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feidef2011
There are some other stats, and maybe I'm not interpreting the chart correctly, but although OSU has a good DFEI, it doesn't rate so high in some of the other categories. Having such an explosive offense puts pressure on opposing offenses to move the ball.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:53 PM ^
Yeah I don't know what's right. I didn't post the FEI and S&P to prove they have a top 10 defense. It's just to show that they definitely aren't one of the bottom 20 or something. When you have an offense that is such a huge outlier, it becomes difficult to quantify anything.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:29 PM ^
Did they really only give up basically a tenth of a yard more than Michigan? This makes me wonder, did they allow a ton more plays? In other words, could their defense not get off the field? I mean, if you get 3.4 yards per play on offense, you score on every drive. If you get 3.3 yards per play, you are probably going 3 and out each time.
The only thing I am sure of is all these stats confuse me. Well, I can usually follow where the stats come from, but their usefulness is normally lost on me.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:40 PM ^
They scored 49.3 points a game and were 114th in time of possession. Their offense averaged 7.19 yards per play.
I'm not trying to make a case for Okie Light having a great D or anything. It's just that looking at total defense rankings can be very misleading.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:35 PM ^
Yes. Michigans defense was great, OKStates was terrible, but they have nearly identical YPP. I'd think yards per play is a meaningless statistic because it factors 40 yard breakaway plays against negative yardage plays, and lumps passing defense with rushing defense. Red zone attempts for minimal yardage and deep throws downfield are defended by 2 types of defense alltogether, but YPP mixes them into one stat. You can't really measure where the defense was good or bad from that. Scoring defense is a very meaningful statistic, perhaps the most meaningful. If you let Tulsa put up 33 on you, Louisiana-Lafayette put up 34, Iowa State beats you with 37, and KState tags you for 45 then your defense sucks.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:48 PM ^
Two of the teams you chose there averaged over 30 ppg this year and were beaten by Oklahoma State by 27 and 26 points. If I win a game 60-35 it doesn't mean my defense sucks.
And if we're actually going to start treating total yardage as a meaningful statistic here, then how about this: The offenses Oklahoma State faced this year had an average ranking of 35.8 in total yardage while the offenses Michigan faced had an average ranking of 65.4.
Again, my argument is not that Oklahoma State has a great defense. It's also not that it's defense is better than Michigan's. I'm just saying total yardage doesn't come close to telling the story for them this year.
December 28th, 2011 at 11:34 PM ^
LOL @ scoring defense being the most meaningful statistic. And if you want to cherry pick games, they held Baylor to 24 points and 3 points through the first three quarters which means their defense is clearly GOAT.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:16 PM ^
A head Coach said it to the press it must be true. "Just sayin"
December 28th, 2011 at 2:27 PM ^
has taken 109 LOIs over the last four years (27, 27, 26, 29) or as many as Alabama. With five recruiting classes making up this year's team they should be good.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:16 PM ^
Could they possibly have taken near 138 players over five years to fill 85 roster spots?
Oversigning is bogus.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:29 PM ^
It doesn't matter. Gundy doesn't read the papers, BECAUSE THEY'RE GARBAGE.
December 28th, 2011 at 7:16 PM ^
And the editors who put them out are also GARBAGE.
December 28th, 2011 at 2:51 PM ^
Bo had a great career, but two negatives always followed him around. The first was his abysmal record in bowl games. The second negative, not nearly as publicized, was that many NFL scouts considered Michigan players, especially running backs, to be "shot fighters" by the time they graduated because of all the hitting Michigan did in practice.
Football is a stodgy sport in many ways. Whenever anyone comes up with an idea that challenges conventional "wisdom," that person is met with a lot of resistance from media, fans, and coaches. That is why so many people still think "the spread won't work in the Big Ten."
There is a lot of disagreement right now in training circles about how much training is too much. We'll see how it goes with Gundy, but the only thing really sure is that he will probably approach pariah status after one bad year. After all, Gundy couldn't be right when "everybody else" is doing the same thing they have done for the last thirty years, could he?
December 28th, 2011 at 2:57 PM ^
Another thing I read about Gundy today was that he is always honest with his players. I just finished reading Bo's book so I have alot of respect for Mike now. Okie State has a great coach.
December 28th, 2011 at 4:32 PM ^
Not to be cynical, but do you think an article on an 11-1 coach would ever talk about him being dishonest to his players?
December 28th, 2011 at 3:10 PM ^
I don't know why everyone is comparing Hoke to Bo. As the year went on, our practices got lighter and lighter. And in the last 3 weeks the older players barely did anything contact wise.
And now we're preparing for a bowl and Hoke has said on numerous occassions that the practices have been scaled back. Hour, hour and 15 minutes. In fact I was just watching the BTN Football Show and a couple of the guys ripped Hoke for it and Mike Hall had to interject and tell them how Hoke said he learned his lesson at SDSU where he pushed the guys too hard and they didn't play well in the bowl. (BTW, those BTN studio shows are AWFUL!)
Hoke is definitely a Bo disciple, I'm reading Bo's Lasting Lessons and I feel like some things Bo did, Brady has copied line for line. But there are A LOT of things that make Brady his own man...I think he's an updated version of Bo. Hoke will go for it on 4th down WAY more than the coaches before him. Hoke is not a "my way or the highway" type guy with schemes. Otherwise Denard would be playing RB or WR and we'd be trying to force Devin Garnder or Russell Bellomy to look like Tom Brady.
Hoke has the same principles as Schembechler, but they are very different in a lot of ways. Practice is one of those differences. So I don't see the comparison. Michigan has done FAR less in practice since November 1 than A LOT of teams around the country. And we're fresher because of it. Denard isn't worn down and the guys are still out there having fun.
December 28th, 2011 at 4:05 PM ^
I did not know this. It appears I lost touch with my original Hoke philosophy which was to not pay any attention to what he says because he is just feeding the old blues what they want to hear.
He talked about getting physical in these pre bowl practices and I bought into it.
Time to get back to fundamentals.
December 28th, 2011 at 4:42 PM ^
What we need are some exciting and dynamic coaches to retire and take up residence on the BTN to liven things up. I set my DVR for the Football Roundup or whatever they call it and was just watching that same show. Glad to see Mike Hall reflect a little wisdom there.
Have we heard recently if we've caught up with all the practice reduction time penalties? Wonder if this factored into it? Earn 14 or 15 extra practices, then subtract hours off of these extra ones since you know that will help your team anyways from past experience?
And while I'm at it, thanks BTN for relabeling a Penn State Basketball game as 10 episodes of Football Roundup just to suck up 5 hours on my DVR...what a cheap operation.
December 28th, 2011 at 6:42 PM ^
Mike Hall is fine...I actually remember when he won that contest on ESPN and thought he'd make a great anchor. The other guy, I think it's Chris something...the guy who went to N'Western (brain fart). He's fine too. Not great, but at this point, anyone that can put together a sentence should get a look.
Tony Banks and Rosey Colvin are HORRIBLE. I mean they make me wish Pam Ward and Matt Millen were their replacements they're so bad. They know nothing about what they're talking about, they stumble and mumble, get WAAAY to excited over stuff that doesn't matter. The biggest thing is that they provide no insight. If you're a former player, you want a player's perspective on thing and give insight into the game. They are PAINFUL to watch.
There HAS to be a better option out there...some former QB and a former defensive player who can do better. Or a coach other than DiNardo.
The last thing, I can't tell if they want to look like they're the 10 o'clock news on your local ABC station or if they want to be SportsCenter. The stage, setting, everything seems caught in the middle of trying to be your local news and ESPN...it makes it look cheesy, like it's a college news station set.
Just my two cents.
December 28th, 2011 at 5:00 PM ^
How do you know that we've been practicing less and less throughout the year? Just wondering because I haven't read it on here and would like to read more about it. I like the idea of practice time being on a slow decline as the year goes on, it makes sense in my mind.
I agree that Hoke is a more modernized Bo disciple. I like the fact that he seems to care about bowl games more than past staffs did.
December 28th, 2011 at 6:34 PM ^
Hoke said it on one of the Inside Michigan Replay shows following the Nebraska or Ohio games (I believe it was the Ohio game).
He said the seniors have been practicing less for the whole month of November and just doing light work while the younger guys have been getting more reps. Practices were sharp, but weren't as physical for as long (they'll always be physical to a point) as they were in the beginning of the year.
Really most sports and teams do this, it's not a really a shocker. Basketball is a longer season, but the 2nd half of the season in basketball is just walkthroughs and going over gameplanning. Football does the same thing.
This is why for the first few bowl practices we didn't do ANYTHING but fundamentals as if it were spring ball again. It had been awhile since they'd harped on those drills and executed that portion of practice that we went right to that for the bowl practices after we beat Ohio. We just started working on Va Tech right before we left and now that we're in N.O.
December 28th, 2011 at 3:44 PM ^
Gundy is a man, he's 40 (at least) fergodsakes.
December 28th, 2011 at 4:21 PM ^
Just saying but as someone who's alma mater HS went to this no hitting in practice concept and has posted the blistering record of 1-16 the past 2 years I think I would rather have that whole 17 year stretch of playoffs and multiple 9-0 regular seasons back.
That said as you progress through the ranks PeeWee>HS>College>NFL you do need to monitor your practice time and there is a diminishing return to it all but seriously football is about hitting and not practicing it leads to soft D's and players who get hurt trying to tackle. For proof I provide the entire NBA.
December 28th, 2011 at 6:22 PM ^
Doesn't exactly say "no hitting". I think the clarifier here would be the meaning of "to the ground".
"Last spring, spring ball, we did not scrimmage one time and tackle to the ground. This August, we did not scrimmage one time and tackle to the ground. Nothing."
December 28th, 2011 at 6:02 PM ^
is meaningless?!?
Stanford may very well light them up next week. oSu plays in the Big 12 where defenses are invisible.
December 28th, 2011 at 7:17 PM ^
Well it sounds like Mike Gundy's prayers were answered when they didn't get ranked #2. There probably wouldn't be enough ambulances to cart the entire OSU squad out of the stadium.
December 28th, 2011 at 7:44 PM ^
Greg and RR ran this type of defense, with the no tackling to the ground, for an entire season in 2010. Hell, not only did we not tackle to the ground, we didn't even allow our defenders within 10 yards of the other team's offense just to avoid an accidental injury.
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<br>Copycats.