What other safeties do we have/are we after for 2014? (Silent commit or just not taking any more?)
Michigan no longer recruiting Montae Nicholson (may be full at safety for 2014)
We don't have anyone who projects to be a safety in this class (although 247 does list Wangler as a S, but he's more likely to play LB).
As for silent commits, I'd be shocked if we had one. We only had a few guys on our radar for this position anyway (Nicholson, and the Smiths (Juju and Erick)). Nicholson obviously is not a silent commit now, and Juju Smith has never visited (which all but guarentees he wouldn't be). The only option would be Erick Smith, but he still seems to be an Ohio lean, and I don't think that drastically yet. Nonetheless, silent commitments are rare.
I'm guessing that we're tight on spots for this class, and we just picked up a safety in our next class. If I had to guess for this class we will treat S like we are treating RB—Five Star or Bust. So essentially we will either get Juju Smith or use the scholarship elsewhere. We'll probably know for sure later today when the Tom hears back from Smith.
Maybe the coaches don't need one so desperately in this class. Avery just moved over and maybe they are happy with the progress he and some of the other corners show in learning all of the positions in the backfield. If Smith came knocking I am sure we would take him. Otherwise 5 star or nothing.
Avery is a senior and will exhaust his eligibility at the end of this season, so his move to safety doesn't really affect the 2014 recruiting at the position.
How can we be full at safety for 2014 when we haven't even recruited one?
Sounds to me like coach-speak for the old "It's not you - it's me" line when breaking up with a girl.........
Is there any chance that they see either Peppers, Canteen, or Wangler as a safety?
Thought Wangler was projected to OLB. Peppers could be a safety, but would bet given his size and speed that the coaches will give him every opportunity to become a lockdown CB.
Wonder if this is due to last weekend's 2015 commit of Kinnel.
Or Brandon Watson possibly?
Oops, that's who I meant. I keep confusing Canteen and Watson.
Peppers is probably a little better there, but both could play Safety. Wangler cannot. My guess is below though.
Lattimore and Erick Smith from Glenville right? This makes sense because our commits come in pairs.
Coaches are happy with the young talent at CB and may be moving some of the other young CBs to Safety, thus the position has been filled and more depth isn't required. I really liked Nicholson and would like to have him in the class. But that's my impression.
Seems to me my thought process as well. With both Lewis and Stribling pushing for CB spots as freshmen, we have 5 guys there for 2 slots this year and next year (Raymon Taylor is still a junior). That leaves a lot of players who can push for safety - esp if their alternative is being the 6th CB. You'd expect Peppers to come in and compete for that nickel spot next year for his eventual move to CB in 2015. Did everyone forget about Dymonte Thomas who supposedly is a shoo-in for a starting safety next year? I assume guys like Delano Hill will also be in the 2 deep in 12 months at safety etc. Lots of the 2013 kids can be working to be safeties.
Just when I had gotten over the "loss" of Westphal...
Silent commit? Only player I could think of being a silent commit would be Lattimore or Smith from when there was some thoughts on an early commit from a BBQ visitor. I doubt it's true, but I wouldn't blame a kid from Columbus who committed to MIchigan keeping it quiet until enrolling early or signing day.
Literally no chance of that
Misuse of the word "literally" drives me figuratively insane.
Could Westphal be a silent commit? Or is he officially off the radar? I know the popular opinion is Michigan cooled on him or he was now favoring Northwestern or Vandy but did Westphal ever say that. He originally wanted to choose before he season which starts Friday. Still holding out hope on this kid.
JuJu Smith has apparently not been told the same thing.
Simmer the plot over medium heat until thoroughly thickened...
If that's the case then it's definitely going to be Juju or bust for the position (or maybe Erick Smith too)
He would likely get a best player available type slot though. Not necessarily reserved for a safety spot.
A recruit reduction would hit the spot right now. Dribble it on this week's previews. Serve it up with an opener in Ann Arbor.
I thought safety was a place where we didn't have much depth? And none of the commits seem like they would fit there. Or am I wrong on this?
You are not wrong
I disagree that we don't have much depth at safety, especially moving forward. We only lose one safety after this fall, but more important is that many of our young DBs are versatile. It looks like Hill and Thomas will be safeties and Reon Dawson could be as well, especially considering how good our young CBs look.
I think it's very likely that the coaches have either already moved guys around in the secondary, or feel either Peppers or Watson will end up at safety. Or both.
If Stribling and Lewis are that good, and we return both starting CBs after this year, that's quite the depth chart at CB going forward. If the coaches want to get Peppers on the field in his first couple years, that either means safety or nickel, and it might make more sense for Lewis or Stribling to come in as the fifth DB and have Peppers start at safety alongside Dymonte (or Wilson). With Crawford and Kinnel already in the fold for 2015, the coaches might be saying that the defensive backfield is looking good for the next couple years.
I agree (and wrote very similar things) with much of what you said but I'll disagree on Peppers. A lockdown corner is the 2nd most valuable thing you can have on the defense aside from a terror at defensive end. (or it can be argued THE most valuable thing) A stud safety is always good but if you can "take away half the field" and neutralize the other team's first WR option, it makes for a long day. If Peppers is all he is cracked up to be, he will be a corner. Would you rather of had Ty Law or Woodson or Patrick Peterson or Champ Bailey as a corner or safety? Yes i know Ed Reed etc... but if you have a stud CB you put that kid at CB. I agree 100% with what most are missing - we just had 2 freshman named to the 2 deep. This is a VERY GOOD thing. That mean that those 2 (barring injury) are going to be corners most likely for 2014-2016. You are going to add Peppers - who will displace one of those as a starter (most likely) in 2015. And in 2014 you bring back all 5 guys you currently have as corners in the 2 deep. So the 5 in 2013 are going to be the 5 in 2014 with potentially Peppers sliding in as a nickel in 14. That is 6 CBs next year.
You have Dymonte who is a projected safety and then a lot of young guys who are going to either be vying to be the #6 (or 7) CB next year or the #4 CB in 2015 - so you have plenty of good cover guys who can be converted to safeties if they ball hawk and like to tackle. And they will be higher up the food chain at safety rather than vying to be the backup to the backup at corner.
Maybe my point wasn't clear on Peppers - I'm not advocating he be moved to safety if all other things are equal. My point was that if we're returning our full 2-deep at corner for his frosh season, and three of those four for his Soph season, and if we don't have two sure-fire starters at safety, he's a guy who could move their based on his versatility.
I'm also only talking about his first season, maybe second. When Peppers is a freshman, Raymon Taylor and Countess will be in their third seasons as starters. We will be replacing one or maybe two starters at safety after this season. Sometimes it makes more sense to play young guys where they can best contribute, not where they fit the best, long term. Same reason Schofield was a guard before last season.
I'd think the coaches would make room for him if he does actually want to come here. But it could be Nicholson's time table for deciding was an issue too with the coaches. It sounded like he was taking his time and not planning to commit until after his season sometime. Whether we're expecting another guy to commit or whether we actually are done recruiting the position, I'll assume the coaches know what they're doing.
I had seen a teaser tweet last night from Steve Lorenz linking to a post on 247 addressing this but the tweet was soon deleted. I read the post on the 247 board about Montae but when I tried to go back a few minutes later read any reactions to the news, I could not find it. I was hoping that meant it was a premature post and he was still being recruited but looks like that was not the case. Bummer.
And the big rush to change the crystal ball prediction is on:
Perhaps they've made the decision to redshirt one or two of the 2013 safety prospects, which in effect pushes them to the 2014 class.
I'm not sure I understand the wisdom of taking 3.5 SAM prospects and no safeties, but I'm sure the plan will be revealed in time.
You lose 2 of the 3 LBs starting (incl Jake Ryan) in 17 months, along with top reserve Brennen Beyer. You lose Cam Gordon in 4 months. That is 4 of the top 5 in the rotation right now gone in a year and a half. We don't have "plenty of LBers" - it is the "oldest" position in the team right now IMO excl WRs which will be restocked next year. Out of 4 players recruited you have to assume 1 won't pan out and 1 may be an injury, leaving you 2. Over a 5 year cycle that is 10 guys to a 7-8 person core group of players. Some just won't be good enough as well. 3-4 LBs a class is fine.
Right. It's the difference between 3 LBs and 4 LBs that seems critical here.
Are there 4 spots left or 3 for 2014? If 3 then it makes me feel like Hoke feels he is going to pull Hand and McDowell and just leave 1 spot open for best player available sort of thing. I assumed there were 3-4 spots left but I am not sure.
I don't really get this. Wasn't he the most realistic shot at a safety (and a good one) in this class?
But that just means more room in the class for Hand, McDowell, Lattimore and Smith(preferably Juju but I'll take Eric if that means Lattimore too).
Its not always easy to say it but that's why they call it faith, in Hoke I trust.
Lattimore and Smith are buckeyes all the way
I don't think that's true. I'm guessing at least one of them ends up elsewhere.
Turst the coaches and all, BUT I really cant see why we would need a 4th LB (a skinny sleeper, no less) over a stud safety.
I remember simlar things being said about Stribling, and this lowly 2 star looks to be cracking the 2 deep as a true freshman in our resonably well stocked CB depth chart.
Stribling was a guy who fit a specific need, i.e. big corner, and his signing did not force anyone else out that I can recall. Wangler, on the other hand is a 4th LB who is woefully undersized for SAM or slow for WLB and his signing apparently took away a spot for a super talented player at a position of apparent need in Nicholson.
Sorry, but not all sleeper recruits are the same.
Wangler is not slow for the Will. He has more than enough speed. Whether he can quickly diagnose plays being closer to the line of scrimmage and hold up as an inside backer are the key questions for me.
Can you explain to me how you would know what the roster needs are any better than the actual staff who spent spring and fall camp with the roster at hand?
This^^. The mini-meltdown on the thread has been entertaining. SLOW workday to say the least.
will not be asked back, such as Josh Furman? Any insight on this out there?
Also, the schollies that Hoke gave to Glasgow, Reynolds & Kerridge, are they one year deals?
Doesn't seem like Hoke to not continue them though, especially considering both Glasgow and Kerridge will be starting this year.
Hoke can continue for starters... and most likely will... but it is not obligated to.
sometimes don't come back for their own reasons. If they have their degree, they might just want to move on with their non-football career or look for more playing time as a grad transfer.
I'm going to pout for a good hour or two.
Interesting. Alot of people had this guy penciled in as a commit.
...Nicholson seemed like the leader at S for Michigan. The arrow was down on Westphal and Smith was a "wait and see" type. I'm just interested as to why this comes out now and not weeks ago when we got our most recent DB commit for 2014.
The coaches aren't allowed to initiate contact right now if I'm not mistaken, so maybe Montae hasn't called them in awhile?
I know Montae's family personally, and was really pulling for him to come to Michigan. He is a great kid - both on and off the football field - wish him all the best. I could sense UM was pressuring him to commit, and I think that turned him off. He wants to wait, take his officials - who can blame him.
PSU, Pitt and Oregon have to to be the leaders for him at this point.
Things change - I am still holding out hope.
I thought Nicholson was one of our best options at Safety for 2014, and this surprises me too.
On the one hand, I understand how someone wants to take all their officials and take their time in making their decision. On the other hand, I can understand the coaches giving three different kinds of offers, depending on the recruit:
- We have a committable offer for you . . . today, right now. Once the spot (or spots) we're recruiting for are filled, the offer is no longer committable. IIRC, this happened with offensive line recruiting, when we had the commitment palooza Saturday a while back. We filled the spots, and that was that. This kind of offer tends to go to high 3 star and low 4 star recruits.
- We have a non-committable offer for you . . . we'll let you know if and when it becomes commitable. This happened with Drake Johnson, the Ann Arbor Pioneer RB who committed almost on the spot, once a committable offer was on the table. This happens when a recruit is below the radar, 2 star, low 3 star.
- We have an open, committable offer for you, that you can accept at any time. This kind of offer is pretty much reserved for the likes of Da'Shawn Hand, Jabrill Peppers, Leonard Fournette, Adoree' Jackson, etc. Perhaps Malik McDowell, Marshon Lattimore, JuJu Smith, and a few others are here, but eventually, there comes a time when the offer can be pulled.
Recruiting moves so fast now. Keeping spots open is fraught with danger, when someone you are hoping will sign on decides to go elsewhere.
#2 is so hysterically false, I have no idea where to begin.
Bad things come to those who wait in the new era college fooltaball recruiting. Unless of course your a concensus top 10 talent like Hand. They will keep a spot open for you.
This^^^ Every kid who says he wants to wait and take all his OV's and do the hat dance on NSD, better make sure these days that he is an unambiguous 5-star.
This ain't your daddy's, er, older brother's recruiting world anymore. Classes fill up by the time you are a HS senior.
The NCAA really should move Officail Visits to the summer before your senior year.
This could go two ways, one reason is that we're moving one of 2012-2013 DBs whom see to show more promise at SS or FS then CB (Delano Hill, Channing Stribling, and Dymonte Thomas) and will fill that position till they graduate.
The other possibility is that due to Ohio getting there two most recent recruits one of which is at DB Erick Smith and hopefully CB Lattimore are both silent commits who due to their experience at the BBq want in here.
I know which I like more but I'm inclined to believe in former rather then latter.
Dymonte has been slated for safety from the start - nickel seems to be where they are going to plug these very upper end freshman whether they end up as a corner or a safety their sophomore year. Hill is one of those tweener guys, mixed bag whether he'd be safety or cb but most thought safety I think. Stribling was a lowly non 4-5 star so who really cares - he probably won't play until a jr because stars is what matters. Oh wait... Jarrod Wilson is a 2012 S, Terry Richardson sure won't be a safety, Jeremy Clark - all 305 lbs of him is a 2012 S, and Ross Douglas and Reon Dawson have been forgotten by the fan base but should be somewhere hopefully in the 2 deep as RS freshman next year. Maybe both as safeties since the CB spot looks "quite full" in 2014.
I kinda touched on this above, but stuff like this happens all the time after fall camp. The coaches see what they have, and adjust their recruiting accordingly. It's possible that the coaches feel better after camp about their young DBs and feel those open spots in the next class are better used somewhere else.
Considering our DB depth chart has three true frosh on it and two sophomores starting (and only two total seniors), the d backfield should be good for a year. Plus we have the top DB in the country committed.
had the LB spot filled up last year when they turned away several high star guys away only to have Ringer and Poole flame out. It can go both ways, so why not keep in touch with Nicholson who was not going to decide until late anyway?
Good post. They probably saw they have numerous guys that looked good at DB during fall camp, while they might have seen some other area that looked weaker.
I hope you're right, but they offered Wangler the first week of August. That timing would seem to weigh against this being a situation where the staff saw their new crop of DBs in camp and decided, "we're going to be fine at safety, let's get another LB."
You snooze, you lose.
Kinda weird as we will only have five scholarship safeties next year and that assumes Furman comes back.
Sure, but that assumes no corners are moved to safety in the meantime or that neither of our 2014 corner commits move to safety, which is unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see a guy like Reon Dawson playing safety next year after putting on some weight. And I think between Thomas and Wilson, we should be in OK shape. We just need one of Furman, Hill or Clark to be a solid back up. My money is on Clark.
I agree that Wilson and Thomas make an excellent starting point for next year but nobody can predict injury or player development. It is a very thin position depth-wise and moving a failed corner to shore up a depleted position group may work but is not optimal. I'm curious why we are full at S yet gave out scholarships recently to an unheralded LB and CB. Wouldn't we have been better off taking a 4 star S instead?
You think Reon Dawson is a failed corner? He's been here a month. And I don't know what taking Watson and Wangler have to do with Nicholson. And Watson can play safety, so maybe once they had him they felt they didn't need Nicholson. Or maybe they just like the safeties they have and think the scholarships are better used elsewhere.
Well, the way things have shaken out, it definitely appears as though Wangler's committment is what closed the door to Nicholson. I have been sort of making that assumption myself, but I guess it's not necessarily true--it could well have been the plan to take 4 LBs all along and the two 2015 DBs that we just picked up are what left Nicholson without a spot, or maybe it was Watson's committment that did it and we are just now finding out about it, or maybe something else entirely.
Calling Reon Dawson a "failed corner" though, yeah, I don't know what that's about.
I don't know why a linebacker commitment would take the spot of a safety, so the Wangler theory doesn't make any sense to me. We're not exactly in "best player available" territory yet. I'm not 100% sure the reasoning here either, but typically turning away talented recruits is a good thing.
I see your point. I guess what I was envisioning, though, is that the coaches know how many spots they have the in class, and based on that number they have to decide how many LBs they will take, how many defensive linemen, how many safeties, etc. Evidently the staff wanted a fourth LB more than a S--or at least they did if that fourth LB was Wangler.
At any rate, in looking at the roster I don't think it's really going to make much difference in the long run whether we take a safety in the 2014 class or not. Wilson has three years left, Clark, Hill, and D. Thomas each have four years, and Reon Dawson will presumably redshirt--plus there are guys who could move over from CB and then Kinnel is committed already for 2015. That's a lot of bodies for two spots.
Rich People problems.
Nobody said that Reon was a failed corner. My point was that whomever (Reon or anyone else) we move to safety is someone who could not win the CB spot.
Who said that Reon was a failed corner? You said that the S position could be supplemented with a CB. Whoever moves over will, by definition, be someone who couldn't win the CB spot.
And while I think that taking Watson and Wangler closed the door on taking a safety, I do not know that for a fact. But my point still stands. It is very odd that the coaching staff decided to take two players with average rankings at positions that have more depth than to wait on a more decorated player at a position with a lot less depth.
It certainly seemed like you suggested Dawson was a failed corner, but either way, that's not the case. Sometimes you move a player because he is good and you want him on the field. That doesn't mean he is "failed" at another position. Is Courtney Avery is failed corner because they wanted to work him in at FS? If that's what you're saying, then I disagree that it's a bad thing. Is Norfleet a failed RB that we now have at slot receiver?
Teams always have certain positions with more talent than others, and they often move those guys around to get them on the field. This is not a bad thing. If the coaches feel we have a lot of young talent at CB and some of them can play safety, that's a good thing.
I still don't get why turning away a good recruit is viewed as a negative to so many people. It seems people on this board get more excited about future players than they do about the current ones.
Avery couldn't win the CB spots and Norfleet couldn't win the RB spot so they failed at those positions. That does not mean, however, that they have failed as players. I am excited to see what Norfleet can do in the slot and Avery seems to have the coaches' confidence at safety.
My point is simply that depth-wise, safety is quite thin next year and I am surprised that the coaches would take other players over a highly recruited safety. Can we get by with just Thomas and Wilson next year? Maybe but the margin of error is slim. Can we move someone else to the safety position if we need to? Maybe but I'd rather rely on a highly touted player who was specifically recruited for that position.
It seems extreme to say a player failed at his position simply because he's not a starter. Every good team, ours included, has talent beyond the starting line up. If that talent can be moved around to make the team better, that's not a bad thing.
Point is - sometimes the third best CB on a given team is better than the second best safety. So moving one of them can often improve the team overall.
I think that you made my point better than I made it. If a third string CB is better than any of your safeties except the starting safeties, doesn't it make sense to recruit more safeties (Nicholson)?
Only if they're not good at playing safety. What you are assuming is that this third CB isn't still a good starting safety, and sometimes a team just has more "starters" at a particular position than they have starting spots for, so they start them somewhere else.
We've recruited a lot of DBs lately, so maybe the coaches feel enough of them can play both positions that taking Nicholson isn't necessary.
I'm amazed the Minkah news hasn't found its way to this board yet. Maybe by morning
Thank you for keeping it from us a little longer.
Good attitude. Some boards have rules about who delivers information and what can be brought from other places. I just didn'ty want to step on toes.
Basically Minkah is in the works to transfer and the popular rumor is to Paramis this year to play with JBB and Jabrill. We'll see where it goes.
EDIT-and there was good reason for nobody to talk about it, the transfer is NOT happening. Shame, but it's good to hear Minkah is still so interested in playing with Peppers
sounded like a great kid with talent. Hate to push those kids away. I'm sure he will find a great place to land.