I just got done reading that article. It just sounds a little ridiculous the lack of support that some of these students have for RR.
Mich. Student Assembly rejects measure calling for RR firing
It is not ridiculous to want Rodriguez fired after the past three years. Yes, he's had to face more issues than most new coaches, but at the same time, he's not exactly blameless for the team's struggles either. Even if you think Rodriguez should be retained, you should at least acknowledge that there are valid reasons to want him gone.
I have yet to meet a student who a) follows the football team and b) fails to acknowledge that there are valid reasons to fire Rodriguez. That said, many feel that he should retained anyway because there are more valid reasons to keep him around.
Also, the resolution likely failed because it would be a complete waste of time and it was not the proper forum.
Finally, where exactly did I say that I want Rodriguez fired? Oh wait, I didn't. What I said was that there are valid reasons to fire him and we should acknowledge this. As such, feigning shock that there are students who want him gone is stupid and tiresome.
EDIT: Fixed the opening paragraph in which I forgot the key words, "fails to".
You haven't met me then.
You can give your "valid" reasons, but I do not agree.
Also claimed: there are valid reasons to fire and retain Rich Rodriguez. This claim is so miniscule that it should be disregarded entirely. One can think up "valid reasons" for almost anything, therefore he stated little.
Edit: I'm just giving you a +1 Seth, despite the fallacy. It's not your fault they can't read good.
My point was that there is reason enough to fire Rodriguez such that the position is far from ridiculous, which is what I was responding to in the first place. I then backed up this point of view later on in the thread.
But yes, I'll concede that my original response was poorly worded and constituted a fallacy, as you pointed out.
on this Board, right? And a lot of nostalgia for the era of Canham-Schembechler football at Michigan, right?
I assure you, as someone who was in school at Michigan in the 1970's, as someone who's met Bo, and Don Canham, and Gary Moeller, and Lloyd Carr, and David Brandon (ironically, I've never been introduced to Rich Rodriguez; my loss) BO SCHEMBECHLER WOULD HAVE COMPLETE, UTTER, LAUGHABLE CONTEMPT AND DISREGARD FOR A MICHIGAN STUDENT ASSEMBLY THAT WOULD VOTE TO ENDORSE THE FIRING OF THE COACH OF A 7-5 MICHIGAN TEAM THAT WAS HEADED TO A BOWL GAME.
There has not been a single post on this thread supporting the resolution.
I could possibly understand wishing to make a private hypothetical argument in favor of replacing Coach Rodriguez. I cannot possibly understand the Michigan Student Assmebly passing a resolution on the topic.
It is embarassing, to the Assembly and, by extension, to the entire student body.
It reminds me of one of those big-city council meetings, wherein they pass a resolution about U.S. foreign policy, or one of the innumerable nonbinding resolutions about whether Pluto is really a planet. Actually, those two examples are more justifiable than this one, which not only has zero force and effect, but which is profoundly embarassing and hurtful to the success of the football program.
But the resolution failed by a huge margin, so I don't think it's that big a deal.
So even the mere proposal, for a resolution that would -- even if it had won -- have meant nothing, was a failure.
Fail, fail, fail. Check, check, check.
What we're left with is a story that had no substantive importance, other than providing grist for more pointless snarky conversation about Rich Rodriguez. We could call this something like "public masturbation," but I suppose I'd have to concede that somebody might actually be able to sell tickets and make some money off real, live public masturbation.
What we're left with is a story that had no substantive importance
Gee, in the Michigan Daily? No way.
It almost seems like the Daily ran this story in order to record the massive student solidarity with the football coach? Not sure why a newspaper would do a thing like that.
I was actually commenting on the fact that the Daily loves to pick up stories that are mostly irrelevant, (often willfully) misinterpret them, then get the obvious reaction from students of "OMG, this is irrelevants, i wants my monez back!" Michigan really needs to get their journalism department back.
good thing the paper has you to be the relevance police!
OK, you've lost me.
the all caps rant just didn't make sense at all bc not one person mentioned how Bo would feel about the issue
"MSA Proposes Coach-Firing Resolution, Bo Boxes Ears of Multiple Assembly Members"
I agree. This crap where people get negged for mentioning that there are reasons not to keed RR needs to stop. I'm tentatively in favor of keeping RR, but it's childish and stupid to just bash the other side's opinion.
I agree that it has been rough, but would you agree that the majority of the problems have not been his fault? How good do you expect a team to be that has literally no depth on it and that has been injury plagued the majority of the time he has been coach? I am not trying to start a fight here with you because all of this has been discussed countless times. But this crap is kind of dumb, IMO.
Major reasons for retaining Rodriguez:
- The team has improved it's record every year under Rodriguez.
- With a first-year starting QB, we have one of the best offenses in the country. And the offense stands to improve next year.
- With first year starters at many key positions on the defense, combined with the return of Troy Woolfolk and JT Floyd, our defense stands to improve significantly next year to the point of being a respectable unit.
- The players heavily support Rodriguez.
- Firing Rodriguez at this point would have a significant effect on this year's recruiting class when we already have depth issues to worry about. Therefore, firing Rodriguez could significantly damage our ability to be competitive over the next few years.
- Firing Rodriguez will also disrupt continuity, and another coaching transition is not something to look forward to.
Major reasons for firing Rodriguez:
- He is 0 for 2 on hiring defensive coordinators (yes, I want GERG to go immediately).
- Part of the reason that we have little defensive depth is that he has failed to adequately develop defensive depth. Numerous defensive recruits have failed to qualify and damaging attrition on the defensive side of the ball has continued through this year.
- The defense has regressed every year under his tenure.
- He has underperformed every year in that he has lost games that we should have won. We should have beaten Toledo and Purdue in '08, Illinois and Purdue in '09, and Penn State this year. And he has yet to produce any big wins to compensate for these losses, unless you count '08 Wisconsin.
- We're 0-6 against MSU and OSU and only one of those games has been truly competitive ('09 MSU, although I suppose you can argue that '09 OSU and '10 MSU were competitive as well).
- There have been numerous questionable personnel and game decisions, such as switching to the 3-3-5 against Purdue in '08, running Brown on downs 1-3 against Illinois in '09, and using Gallon as a returner for most of the year despite his major fumbling issue. When so much else has gone wrong, these types of decisions are critical and Rodriguez hasn't been impressive at making them.
- Until Rodriguez is definitively off the hot seat or is fired, we will have recurring recruiting difficulties.
- The Jim Harbaugh factor
I am still unsure about whether or not we should fire Rodriguez. The pros and cons of doing so are about even, in my opinion. However, I do believe that it is foolish to claim that it would be baffling to fire Rodriguez and people who want to fire him are dumb.
good job making this a comment and not a post. +1
I thought that the MGoBoard existed so that everyone could start a new thread about their individual opinion on Rodriguez's job status, no matter how unoriginal it was.
(I am in NO WAY trying to justify numerous redundant threads- just asking an intelligent group of people what they think about this outside of the coaching situation.)
In theory, if a similar opinion is arrived at without outside influence, does that make it unoriginal?
One definition of original states that something original must be new. Therefore, an original opinion is held by the first person to express the opinion, or at least the first person in a community to come up with the opinion.
On the other hand, a different definition of original states that something original must be thought of or created independently of anything else, in which case, an opinion developed in the manner you described would indeed be original.
That said, in my experience, the first definition is more widely used when describing philosophies, opinons, interpretations, etc. And I am inclined to apply the first definition as well because when a distinct opinion is first submitted to a community the opinion adds to the conversation surrounding a the topic on which its based, whereas later submissions of the same opinion do not add anything to the conversation. However, I freely acknowledge that there is significant ambiguity here.
This is exactly the kind of reasoning I was looking for- I hadn't considered that it matters whose perspective is being used to define 'original'.
Excellent critical thought- one more reason to trust MGoBlog more than any other source.
Thanks for the 'Dead Poet Society' moment - +1 to you sir.
of the word "original" is "origin," as in "source." "Original" means "coming from the source."
I agree with each point you make. However, I know that I want him to stay because I feel the advantages of him staying far outweigh the disadvantages. Time will tell though.
An accurate list of reasons to keep / fire RR.
I don't completely agree with all of the negative comments but do agree with them mostly.
I think because it's so close, we should keep RR. Also, I think Stanford is peaking this year. Another year and we may well have enough info on RR as well as JH.
I think he must go 9-3 next year or beat MSU AND tOSU, both. I doubt if he can convince me that we should keep him around for a long time unless he can go 11-1 next year, which seem very unlikely. So, 2012, will be another important year, at least for me.
A big IF is RR isn't willing to make substantive changes on the defensive side of the ball, then RR must go. Essentially all of the position coaches HAVE to go. They have failed through two defensive coordinators. Also, really GERG must go, though why he was hired in the first place is a more important question. I think a good metric for the defense next year is being no worse 7 / 12 in scoring in the Big Ten counting Big Ten games only.
But what is ridiculous is that they're bringing this to a vote in the student assembly? Do they really nothing better to do? Guess not.
You clearly don't follow what they normally due. At least they are talking about something that happens at the university not off trying to get involved in world politics.
They're just useless. Simple as that.
act locally. i remember a group of my friends and I in the dorm started a petition to get Cap'n Crunch as a choice in the cafeteria. after much time and effort WE WON!!!
I don't no. What due they due?
Haha MSA? C'mon, the entire point of the students on MSA when I was at Michigan was to put more fluff on their resume. It's not any different that high school student government. You run for election, do some minor campaigning (make posters, send emails, talk to friends, tell people when the election is), go to meetings, occasionally meet with administration and sell the shit out of it at your interviews.
I'm just glad there are some level-headed kids that stomped it out before it was put on the agenda because 1. even though the MSA doesn't really do anything, they can at least pretend to talk about real issues they can affect and 2. I am imagining a comedic reaction by DB to the letter or resolution or whatever Hamilton and Hashwi wanted done...I just keep thinking of Billy Madison getting the macaroni necklace:
DB to Mucas Queen: You see, I work for the athletic department. I ride the...
MSA: Oh, Davey, you forgot your stuff...
DB: THANK YOU VERY MUCH MSA!!!
Don't you students have finals right now??? These kids need to go study or something.
They are spending all of their time here on Mgoblog
ya i know a lot of kids that go to the michigan games that don't really follow michigan football, or even had watched a michigan football game before they came to michigan but..
I also know there are a lot of hardcore fans too, but it would be interesting to see how many Hardcore student fans opinion differs from kids that just go to the game cause it is the thing to do.
90% of my friends who attned UM never even watched michigan or knew anything about football before attending, once they did they watched the games, but really didn't know many of the players.
Good thing they don't make any decsions
5 yes, 24 no votes means the resolution was never serious. the 17% of representatives that voted yes nonetheless succeed when news of the resolution gains currency (i.e., as in here and now).
Student Government is/was srs bsnss. I was in student government. It's safe to say that I took it way too seriously.
They did succeed in making a headline, which was probably the only thing that they really accomplished. Too bad that will be the top google hit for their names from now on. Good luck in the future guys!
In the meantime, they just trolled errrbody. Like Dave Brandon cares about what some random MSA rep thinks.
They don't have anything better to do -- is criticizing MSA politics? Because if not, I want to play!
Lame. It would be totally different if it were the players calling for RR to be fired, but as we have seen, many of them have already voiced how much they like RR and how they want him to remain the head coach.
How much say should students have in this matter? Not much, in my opinion.
future playes, too.
I would imagine most students who go to Michigan don't know much about football past W/L records and storied tradition.
They see it like they see air-conditioning as an option on their car- if you pick Michigan, you get to have great football every year. And now they're all ANGAR because this is not the 'Michigan experience' they signed up for.
It just doesn't work that way- the 'damning' stats they cited in the article didn't even approach a level where context could be gained.
I take this as nothing more than a few kids wanting to feel important.
It's also a great point that player opinions weren't considered for the resolution...
I'm thinking that you didn't go to Michigan, because here there's a large portion of students that are also hardcore fans.
[EDIT: I took your post to be a swipe at my not being a UM grad- I believe that was a mistake on my part. I think you were just trying to say that unless I went there, I wouldn't realize how many students actually do know about football and care deeply about the situation. My apologies...]
I didn't go to UM, but I don't understand why that matters.
The prerequisite to being a hardcore fan is making the statement that you are a hardcore fan.
It seems to me that you can be hardcore, and also lack deeper knowledge of how football works and how modern college football programs work.
I wasn't making a jab at the student body- just guys like the ones who submitted this resolution...my money says they'd claim to be hardcore, yet their resolution doesn't help anyone...
I'm sure there are thousands who do get it, but I have to believe there are thousands who don't...
The opening line to my first post was poorly worded. I wasn't trying to imply that all students are clueless about this- just enough of them to be noticed with stuff like this...
I disagree. I'm appalled at the lack of knowledge surrounding the football program. For the three semesters I have been here, I've only met a few individuals who follow mgoblog. For the most part, the student body a) doesn't care about football - they use football saturdays as an excuse to get up early to drink (women, mosty) or b) are MSM whores and think that RR is a sleazy hick and Harbaugh "the saint" is in.
Also, I've been told multiple times (by girls, almost always) that I ruin their game experience because I shout and ask them to cheer. My bad?
Give us a little more credit than that. I'm sure there are plenty of MGoDenizens who would express their discontent if they wouldn't get negged into Bolivian immediately after. I, for one, would love to see RR stay and I think next year is going to be really special if he does. It's an historic period in M football and I'm proud to go here while it's happening, even if it's taken a few down years. I've still had plenty of awesome moments in the Big House steudent section: the 2008 Wisconsin game, Notre Dame 2009, the rededication, Illinois 2010. Not to mention the night game next year and the Big Chill and playing Nebraska at home for our first BigTen game against them.
Anyways, yeah, there are lots of students who don't care much about football other than the fact that we've been losing more than usual lately. But don't imply that just because somebody's unhappy with our current coaching "situation" that they "don't know much about football."
Good point- I guess it just seemed like these specific guys were trying to fan the flames- and no matter what you want, we all have to be sick of that at this point...
I should have used a Venn diagram.
I'm sure they were. And I'm definitely sick of it too.
Oh and I'mma hitchu witta posbang for your signature. If you didn't know already, you can buy the complete series today on Amazon for like $28 or something crazy like that.
After re-reading my posts, my point was very poorly communicated- I certainly meant no disrespect to students at UofM. It's just at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Nancy Grace chimed in on RR/DB...
Excellent advice about Amazon- unfortunately, I already bought each season individually as they came out...
I overpaid- but some things are worth having right away!
(BTW, +1 to you- I love civil discussions more than anything....seriously)
Taco Tuesday. For or against?
MSA passes the measure unanimously.
Just goes to show that the anti-RR campaign can take place in his very own backyard. Shows even more that not even people on the campus knows the true effect he's having on these guys, and no one is listening to it either.
Actually, I think most people have noticed the effect he's had on this program, and that's why they wish for a change.
I am not saying to do it, but I think Omar needs to be bitch slapped.
i second that motion
Move to amend that Nate be added to the list so that the new resolution reads:
I am not saying to do it, but I think Omar (and Nate) need to be bitch slapped.
What the hell was the point of the MSA holding this resolution???
As students at what is considered to be a "smart" school, do these asses not recognize that all that they are doing is causing further negativity for our great program and our school? If this passed, do they really think that DB - a former CEO of a billion dollar company - is going to say, "well, I was planning on sitting down and making my evaluation based upon piles of relevant date, input from former players (many currently in the NFL), talking to alum, donors and evaluating the progress of the team, but if a bunch of student counsel nerds want me to fire the FB coach, I guess I should listen"?
Instead, all that this has don e was to give the local media yet another item with which ti flame away at our beleaguered program. Hell, this may even make it beyond the local media and be mentioned on ESPN.
This is, quite possibly, the WORST thing that these kids could have done for the situation. If they were under the mistaken belief that they had any say in the matter, they should have arranged a private meeting with DB.
MSA loves stupid symbolic resolutions though. I had to sit through far too many meetings where resolutions on Israel were the contentious issue for a student government assembly. Ann Arbor City Council isn't really that different either though I guess.
Both groups have long (at least back to the '80s, anyway) had an exaggerated sense of their importance.
I recall voting for something called the Abolitionist Party when I was in school. They would have dissolved the MSA and sent refunds to everyone.
What the hell was the point of the MSA
I remember them wasting tons of time on passing resolutions that disagreed with stuff in the mid east. Really? A better resolution would have been to ensure the cheers from Yost will be expanded to the Bid House on Saturday, with cheer leaders for those not as familiar with our favorite chants.
I could +1 you to Bolivian! MSA, it's always been a waste of time.
These people should be embarrassed. Do people realize that DB is going to make the decision, not them? What these asshats are doing can only hurt the program (recruiting and otherwise). Let things play out and stop hurting damn the program! I have my opinions on what shoud happen, but I'm not knocking our University and giving kids a bad impression of the program by bitch and moaning on the intraWeB over something I can't control. Whatever happens, I will support! The end.
If one idiot proposes something, unfortunately, the rest of the Assembly will almost always have to debate it. I wasn't on MSA, but there were plenty of singular idiots that loved proposing annoying measures just to slow things down, while other students actually wanted to improve things, like registration, quality of life, etc.
I had season tickets to Yost all four years I was at school, but I'm not sure I'd want to import all of the hockey cheers to the Big House. First, they are part of what makes Yost unique and magical and were easy ways to spot someone on campus who actually knew what "that ice game where people punch each other" was. Second, I'd like to be able to bring my younger children to Football games and enjoy the pagentry and tradition without having to explain what a "C***-****er" is. When they get older, I'll teach them the cheers for Yost myself.
I think he meant to bring them for the Big Chill this Saturday, seeing as it's a hockey game.
As a student here at UM, I don't think this survey is indicative of the overall student opinion. The students that attend the game, and genuinely understand the state of the program seem to support Rich, and understand that the team is moving along a steady improvement line. The students that come here simply thinking Michigan=Good football no matter what are the people voting against him, and frankly, do these opinions really matter?
I agree with what you are saying. The problem is students who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Michigan football are in my opinion, 1) the most vocal on the subject of Coach Rod and 2) think they know what they are talking about, and 3) think their opinions matter. There is nothing more frustrating to me than sitting in class or the student section listening to some clown talk about how Rich Rod doesn't care about his players, or that the spread doesn't work in the Big Ten, or that Denard Robinson runs "like a bitch" while professing their love for Lloyd Carr (despite the fact that they probably wanted him gone too).
I think we should keep Coach Rodriguez, but I have no problem with someone who supports firing him as long as they can give me actual reasons and not the common misconceptions about this program that have been spread across this campus and the country.
I attend classes semi-regularly, pay way too much for rent, eat excessive amount of No Thai! that no human being should ever consume, and sacrifice more sleep for broomball games than studying for finals.
Broomball is important stuff
My team is in the championship game tonight at 10 PM in Yost. We take our broomball very seriously round these here parts.
I politely excuse myself from discussing Michigan sports with those who do not read mgoblog, as it is more than likely a waste of my time, energy and patience. Broomball finals are tonight, hopefully my eecs homework will be done by the Thursday am due date.
Posted from aero335 lecture... sorry Professor Smith
I'm old enough to remember the "Dump Orr" party that ran a slate of candidates for MSA.. They didn't win either.
That is sickening... I stopped when they brought up the lowest winning percentage for any Michigan coach... absolute filth!
when the truth became "filth".
if i was a still a student, i'd vote against whoever thought that this was a reasonable use of time.
Did anyone read this yesterday?
I could not believe what I was reading. This kid has no respect whatsoever for RR. Referring to his possible firing as a show? That's just sickening. A man who has dedicated the past 3 years of his life to our program and this is like the student body treats him? Jeez!
Kartje and Rosenberg discussed this article over a candlelit dinner, where they sipped on delicious wine coolers while sharing stories about punching dolphins and writing at a middle school journalistic level. It must have been one magical night.
Also, Kartje is a clown. That is all.
The Daily Sports Editor appears to be bucking for an interview/internship at the Free Press. I emailed him, after his last silly anti-RR column, about when his Freep interview was scheduled; no reply.
One thing Ryan has learned well apparently; the world of sports media has turned increasingly toward the promotion of controversy and argument. Nothing, it seems, sells quite as well as inflammatory opinions.
The MSA should give out Douchebags of the Year awards. It can go to Nathan Hamilton and Omar Hashwi for proposing this ridiculous measure.
It was a couple insane kids on msa ... my buddy who was actually quoted in the article was so angry about it that he went to the meeting in a jersey and had a 20 minute speech ready to go for why we should keep rich rod and why it wasnt msa's place (seeing as they should rep student athletes as well) ... this issue was laughably shot down ... that vote wasnt even the vote on the issue ... it was a vote to put it on the agenda ... it got utterly destroyed
This wasn't even a vote on the resolution, just a vote on whether or not to spend time talking about it. And it lost 24-5. Sounds like a complete non-story, except insofar as it makes these two goofballs who brought it up look silly.
He said we were competitive before. That we were. We are also competitive now.
Another kid wants to talk about a black stain: how about losing against ASU. There's your black stain.
Listen, I like Lloyd Carr a lot but that last season sucked as much as this one.
This is the same group that tried to condemn the IM sports department a few years ago for having the option of playing in a Co-rec league where girl's points are worth a bit more. They're a joke.
To be fair, we took mad advantage of that rule. Female touchdowns are worth 10 points you say?
They are worth 9 points. And it always makes me laugh that so many people don't realize that they can either knee it at the 1 and let a girl run it in the next play or lateral to a girl if they're in the open field and get the extra 3.
because then people are all like "lol she's just gonna lateral it to that guy," when I line up at qb, and then I'm like "lol no BOOM TD PASS WELCOME TO THE GUNSHOW"
And our goals count for two in co-rec broomball, so run and tell that, homeboy!
....I haven't been sports chair for 3 years or anything.
If a girl gets an out in softball, does it count as two?
Sadly, Michigan's rule makes slightly more sense than OSU's co-ed flag fooball rules. When I played, the rule was that every other completed pass had to be thrown by or to a girl.
why most Michigan students don't care for MSA. MSA has been a joke for a long time. It's nothing more than just a resume builder for your future jobs.
.......take any opinion given by someone belonging to the "Instant Gratification" generation.
...then realized the irony.
You can call us the "Instant Gratification" generation, on the condition we get to call you the "Dirty Hippie" generation. Deal?
...why students don't vote in student government elections. Its because they do and decide absolutely nothing of actual importance without somebody higher up than them signing off on it (And unlike the real government, there is no veto override). Also, they do stupid crap like this. At least 24 of them had the good sense to vote against putting it on the agenda.
Seems as if MSA hasn't changed since I was there in the 90s.
.. And also why I don't care about MSA at all.
what they do in their spare time when they're not passing resolutions regarding US foreign policy in the Middle East...
MSA has a (teeny bit) outsized opinion of their power in relation to their influence, but then again, they get their own topic on MGoBlog, so what do I know.
I'll give everyone here one guess where the Block M in the student section at Michigan Stadium came from.
Nice that people here dismiss the sentiments of the people that actually attend the university. That makes a lot of sense.
The overwhelming popular sentiment, based on this vote, is that the MSA shouldn't waste their time talking about firing the current head football coach. No one has dismissed that sentiment.
One or two people saying, "Hey, I go to Michigan too, listen to me!" doesn't mean they deserve to be listened to.
and thats all its useful for
Do these kids really have nothing better to do?
If anything, I'd argue that this is more meaningful than the resolutions they love to pass about the Middle East and nuclear armament. At least this is something directly relevant to the campus.