Mason NEEDS this, Pistons, after all you've put him through
Mich. Student Assembly rejects measure calling for RR firing
I just got done reading that article. It just sounds a little ridiculous the lack of support that some of these students have for RR.
It is not ridiculous to want Rodriguez fired after the past three years. Yes, he's had to face more issues than most new coaches, but at the same time, he's not exactly blameless for the team's struggles either. Even if you think Rodriguez should be retained, you should at least acknowledge that there are valid reasons to want him gone.
I have yet to meet a student who a) follows the football team and b) fails to acknowledge that there are valid reasons to fire Rodriguez. That said, many feel that he should retained anyway because there are more valid reasons to keep him around.
Also, the resolution likely failed because it would be a complete waste of time and it was not the proper forum.
Finally, where exactly did I say that I want Rodriguez fired? Oh wait, I didn't. What I said was that there are valid reasons to fire him and we should acknowledge this. As such, feigning shock that there are students who want him gone is stupid and tiresome.
EDIT: Fixed the opening paragraph in which I forgot the key words, "fails to".
You haven't met me then.
You can give your "valid" reasons, but I do not agree.
Also claimed: there are valid reasons to fire and retain Rich Rodriguez. This claim is so miniscule that it should be disregarded entirely. One can think up "valid reasons" for almost anything, therefore he stated little.
Edit: I'm just giving you a +1 Seth, despite the fallacy. It's not your fault they can't read good.
My point was that there is reason enough to fire Rodriguez such that the position is far from ridiculous, which is what I was responding to in the first place. I then backed up this point of view later on in the thread.
But yes, I'll concede that my original response was poorly worded and constituted a fallacy, as you pointed out.
Seth9 was only saying that there are valid reasons that RR deserves to lose his job which can be seen even by those who want him retained. The MSA measure likely got such little support because the MSA likely isn't the right venue to debate hiring/firing of the football coach. I have a feeling that a much larger percentage of students agree that there are valid reasons to fire RR (even if they want him retained).
on this Board, right? And a lot of nostalgia for the era of Canham-Schembechler football at Michigan, right?
I assure you, as someone who was in school at Michigan in the 1970's, as someone who's met Bo, and Don Canham, and Gary Moeller, and Lloyd Carr, and David Brandon (ironically, I've never been introduced to Rich Rodriguez; my loss) BO SCHEMBECHLER WOULD HAVE COMPLETE, UTTER, LAUGHABLE CONTEMPT AND DISREGARD FOR A MICHIGAN STUDENT ASSEMBLY THAT WOULD VOTE TO ENDORSE THE FIRING OF THE COACH OF A 7-5 MICHIGAN TEAM THAT WAS HEADED TO A BOWL GAME.
There has not been a single post on this thread supporting the resolution.
I could possibly understand wishing to make a private hypothetical argument in favor of replacing Coach Rodriguez. I cannot possibly understand the Michigan Student Assmebly passing a resolution on the topic.
It is embarassing, to the Assembly and, by extension, to the entire student body.
It reminds me of one of those big-city council meetings, wherein they pass a resolution about U.S. foreign policy, or one of the innumerable nonbinding resolutions about whether Pluto is really a planet. Actually, those two examples are more justifiable than this one, which not only has zero force and effect, but which is profoundly embarassing and hurtful to the success of the football program.
But the resolution failed by a huge margin, so I don't think it's that big a deal.
So even the mere proposal, for a resolution that would -- even if it had won -- have meant nothing, was a failure.
Fail, fail, fail. Check, check, check.
What we're left with is a story that had no substantive importance, other than providing grist for more pointless snarky conversation about Rich Rodriguez. We could call this something like "public masturbation," but I suppose I'd have to concede that somebody might actually be able to sell tickets and make some money off real, live public masturbation.
What we're left with is a story that had no substantive importance
Gee, in the Michigan Daily? No way.
It almost seems like the Daily ran this story in order to record the massive student solidarity with the football coach? Not sure why a newspaper would do a thing like that.
I was actually commenting on the fact that the Daily loves to pick up stories that are mostly irrelevant, (often willfully) misinterpret them, then get the obvious reaction from students of "OMG, this is irrelevants, i wants my monez back!" Michigan really needs to get their journalism department back.
good thing the paper has you to be the relevance police!
OK, you've lost me.
Which is why that ALL CAPS rant from Section1 has confused me.
the all caps rant just didn't make sense at all bc not one person mentioned how Bo would feel about the issue
You're right. Seems there are multiple reasons why it makes no sense, and yet it currently is +18. An ALL CAPS rant, out of the blue, that make no sense, is well-loved by the voters here. The MGoBubble speaketh.
"MSA Proposes Coach-Firing Resolution, Bo Boxes Ears of Multiple Assembly Members"
WOW! THOSE ALL CAPS ARE GREAT! But did you realize that your post is basically agreeing with my (heavily negged) point that the MSA is not the place to debate the job of the football coach? Eh, who knows? Maybe you were just furthering your agreement with me and all those negs came from the horrifying mention that there are some valid reasons to fire the coach (as they are valid reasons to keep him).
I agree. This crap where people get negged for mentioning that there are reasons not to keed RR needs to stop. I'm tentatively in favor of keeping RR, but it's childish and stupid to just bash the other side's opinion.
I agree that it has been rough, but would you agree that the majority of the problems have not been his fault? How good do you expect a team to be that has literally no depth on it and that has been injury plagued the majority of the time he has been coach? I am not trying to start a fight here with you because all of this has been discussed countless times. But this crap is kind of dumb, IMO.
Major reasons for retaining Rodriguez:
- The team has improved it's record every year under Rodriguez.
- With a first-year starting QB, we have one of the best offenses in the country. And the offense stands to improve next year.
- With first year starters at many key positions on the defense, combined with the return of Troy Woolfolk and JT Floyd, our defense stands to improve significantly next year to the point of being a respectable unit.
- The players heavily support Rodriguez.
- Firing Rodriguez at this point would have a significant effect on this year's recruiting class when we already have depth issues to worry about. Therefore, firing Rodriguez could significantly damage our ability to be competitive over the next few years.
- Firing Rodriguez will also disrupt continuity, and another coaching transition is not something to look forward to.
Major reasons for firing Rodriguez:
- He is 0 for 2 on hiring defensive coordinators (yes, I want GERG to go immediately).
- Part of the reason that we have little defensive depth is that he has failed to adequately develop defensive depth. Numerous defensive recruits have failed to qualify and damaging attrition on the defensive side of the ball has continued through this year.
- The defense has regressed every year under his tenure.
- He has underperformed every year in that he has lost games that we should have won. We should have beaten Toledo and Purdue in '08, Illinois and Purdue in '09, and Penn State this year. And he has yet to produce any big wins to compensate for these losses, unless you count '08 Wisconsin.
- We're 0-6 against MSU and OSU and only one of those games has been truly competitive ('09 MSU, although I suppose you can argue that '09 OSU and '10 MSU were competitive as well).
- There have been numerous questionable personnel and game decisions, such as switching to the 3-3-5 against Purdue in '08, running Brown on downs 1-3 against Illinois in '09, and using Gallon as a returner for most of the year despite his major fumbling issue. When so much else has gone wrong, these types of decisions are critical and Rodriguez hasn't been impressive at making them.
- Until Rodriguez is definitively off the hot seat or is fired, we will have recurring recruiting difficulties.
- The Jim Harbaugh factor
I am still unsure about whether or not we should fire Rodriguez. The pros and cons of doing so are about even, in my opinion. However, I do believe that it is foolish to claim that it would be baffling to fire Rodriguez and people who want to fire him are dumb.
good job making this a comment and not a post. +1
I thought that the MGoBoard existed so that everyone could start a new thread about their individual opinion on Rodriguez's job status, no matter how unoriginal it was.
(I am in NO WAY trying to justify numerous redundant threads- just asking an intelligent group of people what they think about this outside of the coaching situation.)
In theory, if a similar opinion is arrived at without outside influence, does that make it unoriginal?
One definition of original states that something original must be new. Therefore, an original opinion is held by the first person to express the opinion, or at least the first person in a community to come up with the opinion.
On the other hand, a different definition of original states that something original must be thought of or created independently of anything else, in which case, an opinion developed in the manner you described would indeed be original.
That said, in my experience, the first definition is more widely used when describing philosophies, opinons, interpretations, etc. And I am inclined to apply the first definition as well because when a distinct opinion is first submitted to a community the opinion adds to the conversation surrounding a the topic on which its based, whereas later submissions of the same opinion do not add anything to the conversation. However, I freely acknowledge that there is significant ambiguity here.
This is exactly the kind of reasoning I was looking for- I hadn't considered that it matters whose perspective is being used to define 'original'.
Excellent critical thought- one more reason to trust MGoBlog more than any other source.
Thanks for the 'Dead Poet Society' moment - +1 to you sir.
of the word "original" is "origin," as in "source." "Original" means "coming from the source."
I agree with each point you make. However, I know that I want him to stay because I feel the advantages of him staying far outweigh the disadvantages. Time will tell though.
An accurate list of reasons to keep / fire RR.
I don't completely agree with all of the negative comments but do agree with them mostly.
I think because it's so close, we should keep RR. Also, I think Stanford is peaking this year. Another year and we may well have enough info on RR as well as JH.
I think he must go 9-3 next year or beat MSU AND tOSU, both. I doubt if he can convince me that we should keep him around for a long time unless he can go 11-1 next year, which seem very unlikely. So, 2012, will be another important year, at least for me.
A big IF is RR isn't willing to make substantive changes on the defensive side of the ball, then RR must go. Essentially all of the position coaches HAVE to go. They have failed through two defensive coordinators. Also, really GERG must go, though why he was hired in the first place is a more important question. I think a good metric for the defense next year is being no worse 7 / 12 in scoring in the Big Ten counting Big Ten games only.
But what is ridiculous is that they're bringing this to a vote in the student assembly? Do they really nothing better to do? Guess not.
You clearly don't follow what they normally due. At least they are talking about something that happens at the university not off trying to get involved in world politics.
They're just useless. Simple as that.
act locally. i remember a group of my friends and I in the dorm started a petition to get Cap'n Crunch as a choice in the cafeteria. after much time and effort WE WON!!!
I don't no. What due they due?
Haha MSA? C'mon, the entire point of the students on MSA when I was at Michigan was to put more fluff on their resume. It's not any different that high school student government. You run for election, do some minor campaigning (make posters, send emails, talk to friends, tell people when the election is), go to meetings, occasionally meet with administration and sell the shit out of it at your interviews.
I'm just glad there are some level-headed kids that stomped it out before it was put on the agenda because 1. even though the MSA doesn't really do anything, they can at least pretend to talk about real issues they can affect and 2. I am imagining a comedic reaction by DB to the letter or resolution or whatever Hamilton and Hashwi wanted done...I just keep thinking of Billy Madison getting the macaroni necklace:
DB to Mucas Queen: You see, I work for the athletic department. I ride the...
MSA: Oh, Davey, you forgot your stuff...
DB: THANK YOU VERY MUCH MSA!!!
Don't you students have finals right now??? These kids need to go study or something.
They are spending all of their time here on Mgoblog
ya i know a lot of kids that go to the michigan games that don't really follow michigan football, or even had watched a michigan football game before they came to michigan but..
I also know there are a lot of hardcore fans too, but it would be interesting to see how many Hardcore student fans opinion differs from kids that just go to the game cause it is the thing to do.
90% of my friends who attned UM never even watched michigan or knew anything about football before attending, once they did they watched the games, but really didn't know many of the players.
Good thing they don't make any decsions
5 yes, 24 no votes means the resolution was never serious. the 17% of representatives that voted yes nonetheless succeed when news of the resolution gains currency (i.e., as in here and now).
Student Government is/was srs bsnss. I was in student government. It's safe to say that I took it way too seriously.
They did succeed in making a headline, which was probably the only thing that they really accomplished. Too bad that will be the top google hit for their names from now on. Good luck in the future guys!
In the meantime, they just trolled errrbody. Like Dave Brandon cares about what some random MSA rep thinks.
They don't have anything better to do -- is criticizing MSA politics? Because if not, I want to play!
Lame. It would be totally different if it were the players calling for RR to be fired, but as we have seen, many of them have already voiced how much they like RR and how they want him to remain the head coach.
How much say should students have in this matter? Not much, in my opinion.
future playes, too.
I would imagine most students who go to Michigan don't know much about football past W/L records and storied tradition.
They see it like they see air-conditioning as an option on their car- if you pick Michigan, you get to have great football every year. And now they're all ANGAR because this is not the 'Michigan experience' they signed up for.
It just doesn't work that way- the 'damning' stats they cited in the article didn't even approach a level where context could be gained.
I take this as nothing more than a few kids wanting to feel important.
It's also a great point that player opinions weren't considered for the resolution...