All this tells me is that Meyer feels seriously threatened by Michigan. Oh well, guess we just have to settle for Deveon Smith and Ty Isaac. That sucks.
Meyer's tactics with Dunn Recruitment
willing to bet one of them will have more career rushing yards than Dunn.
I'm willing to bet both of them will, but that's an easy bet especially if Isaac goes elsewhere (PLEASE DON'T)
Well, I'm betting that's a pretty safe bet since Urban has never produced a 1,000 yard rusher and we had 2 last year.
And having a 1,000+ yard rushing quarterback is obviously the staple of the Borges offense.
It's not the exact same thing. Read the thread. Brown's offer was still there even after he visited Oregon. He could have recommitted after his visit as long as nobody else took his spot, which nobody did. Meyer gave Dunn an ultimatum. Also, we didn't go through three different coaching staffs and change to an unfavorable offense for Brown's skillset while he was committed to us.
Meyer also came out and publicly said he didn't really like Dunn. That's a dick move no matter who says it.
Yes, saying Dunn is not that good is a dick move but it is irrelevant in an analysis of whether Hoke's recruiting practice was similar to Urban's move. This information came out a while ago, right after Dunn ended up recommitting to Ohio, and the consensus seemed to be it was a dick move but we can't be too critical of it since it is somewhat similar to what Hoke does.
The difference is that Hoke explicitly makes it clear that your spot will not be saved if you want to take visits and the coaches will not consider you committed before anyone commits so they know the deal. Dunn's situation was murkier since he committed before Urban was there, there was the issue of NCAA sanctions, and Ohio wasn't practicing the Hoke strategy and did not inform Dunn this could happen to him. And as you mentioned, Hoke doesn't pull your offer but your spot is just open. Urban threatened to pull the offer. This is just more evidence that he is a dick and will engage in questionable practices to win. From what we have seen of Hoke so far he is nothing like that.
You make some good points. It pretty much came out of nowhere in Dunn's case because he had been visiting Michigan and the coaches had visited him, then all of a sudden it's no longer acceptable. Hoke is very clear from the beginning that if you commit you're done taking visits.
It's the same idea, but these two situations aren't as comparable as some people are trying to make them out to be in my opinion.
I agree, these situations are not very similar. Hoke has a policy, for all recruits, all the time.
This suggests that Urban was OK with Dunn taking visits for a while (or at least didn't pull his offer for those), then got sick of it and told him if he goes again, his offer was pulled.
That doesn't make sense. Urban got the job after all of Dunn's visits to Michigan. I don't believe Dunn visited after Urban was hired.
This is only an issue becuase it's Ohio State and Urban Meyer. There's nothing real here.
If by "the Michigan fanbase" you mean, "that one guy who posted on an Mgoblog message board," I'm totally with you!
double post...uh.....woozle wuzzle?
Of course. If Meyer pulled Dunn's offer, he couldn't have lost a recruiting battle to Michigan.
Ah, doesn't MICH kinda do this? If you take visits, you are not committed.
They sure do
I don't think its a vast gulf of a difference but apparently Michigan's staff says: "you're not committed" (if you take other visits) not necessarily "you're not welcome here anymore."
I think that's a huge difference, actually. Telling a kid that he's not committed if he takes other visits means "as of right now, we're considering your spot open and will reopen our recruiting for your position." But the kid could easily turn around - after 5 minutes, 5 days, or 5 weeks if his spot isn't filled - and recommit. Pulling an offer is the end of the line.
Capitalizing essentially doesn't make your point any stronger. Granted they are similar, but, as I mentioned above, Hoke explicitly makes it clear how he practices recruiting and you will not be committed. When Dunn committed to Ohio, he was not informed of this at all.
Also, Hoke might and probably would take some kids back if they visited elsewhere and decided Michigan was the place for them. We haven't had an opportunity to see what happens when this occurs because the only situation was the Brown case where the coaches told him about their policy and he didn't inform the coaches he was going to take some visits. Trying to sneak visits behind the coaches back was the reason that Brown was not exactly welcomed back into the fold. If anyone is up front with Hoke and tells him they want to take visits I am sure he would take them back if they still had spots left.
Edit: Also, this was a head to head recruiting battle where Dunn was deciding between two schools and is different than taking 3-4 official visits to see what other schools are like.
I thought we pulled Pharaoh Brown's offer.
Also, Dunn had been to Michigan numerous times before and he had in-home visits from the coaching staff (not to mention his cousin is committed to Michigan).
What more would 1 last visit do? Urban was correct to issue the threat (and it worked).
Sometimes, these tactics will backfire on coaches, sometimes they will work.
I don't know if we pulled his offer or not, but I think the coaches were upset with him in large part because he tried to be sneaky about the visit. It probably would've been different had he told them what he was doing.
Hoke said if a commit visits other schools, he's no longer considered a commit. I never heard that his scholarship was rescinded-big difference.
We kept recruiting him after we told him we didn't consider him a commit.
I really don't think this is right.
The gist of that thread was that Brown didn't tell the coaches about his trip to Oregon, so they pulled his offer. It's not exactly the same as the Meyer thing here but it's close. We didn't just "consider him uncommitted" and continue to recruit him and others....we stopped recruiting him, period.
Yes I remember that was the perception at the time. It later came out (as much as things can "come out" from paysites that don't reveal their sources) that they continued recruiting him without considering him committed.
It's an issue of consistency. Hoke would have done the same no matter who the recruit was and would not wait until the 4th visit. I have no clue if Meyer told other recruits the same thing.
If the other guy does it it's bad.
Yes we do. Not a big deal IMHO
I find nothing egregious or even special about this tactic, especially seeing as this doesn't seem to be a rare recruiting strategy even with our own coaches (see Pharoah Brown and Michigan).
Why do people keep mentioning Brown. Different circumstances:
He was told that if he took a visit, he would no longer be considered a commit. I firmly believe he could've come back if he wanted to had the position not been filled. He tried to be sneaky about the visit. If he had his scholarship pulled, it was because he tried to go behind their backs, not because he visited another school.
I'm not saying that one tactic is morally better than the other but the Pharoah Brown situation was very different than telling a recruit that his scholarship will be pulled if he takes a visit.
We seem to all be comparing Brown to Dunn's situation because it's pretty damn similar. I know there are differences to the wording and exact situations, but ultimately both situations came down to "if you visit somewhere else, you may come back to find we changed the locks on ya while you were gone."
I get what you're trying to say, but saying it's not the same thing it pretty much like pulling a Vanilla Ice here...
Brown lied to/ deceived the coaches. It was completely a character issue. Dunn was open and honest with everyone.
Had Brown said I want to visit Oregon but I'm still very much interested in Michigan, he would've been told he was no longer a commit, but he would've in no way had his offer rescinded. Hoke stuck to his guns on a character issue. Meyer strong armed an honest kid.
Hoke's stance was if someone else committs at your position, he is going to get it. He never completely pulled the scholarship.
Big difference there.
so who replaced Brown at TE?
Maybe the coaching staff didn't see anyone else that they liked at that position and instead chose to pursuit other players.
You ever heard of a kid named Sam Grant?
No one ended up filling it, be we tried, remember? That's part of the gamble. If one of the TE's we offered would have committed, and Brown wanted back, we would have told him no. As it stood, neither of those things happened, but it could have, which is the point.
Similarly, had Brionte taken the visit to Michigan, it's also possible that he could have gone back to Urban asking in, and I bet Urbs wouldn't have stuck with his word and Dunn would have had a spot still.
Urban was probably lying. But there's another difference, if only you believe that Brown could've had his spot back if he had reaffirmed his commitment. I'm not sure what evidence there is to think Hoke was also lying, other than people thinking that in that situation, they'd have been lying. But that says a lot more about them than Hoke. (As for the people who just fail to see even a potential difference, who knows what to say to those folks?)
He committed to Oregon. And we tried to get Grant and didn't, so we were left without a tight end.
Brown decided he wanted to visit Oregon and lost his offer. This is a pretty well known Hoke policy.
Not true. He lost his spot, which is not the same. Hoke has never said he'd pull an offer form a committed kid who visits elsewhere, just that he considers them uncommitted. There's a big difference. Now, once you decommit from a school, that school can decide to fill your spot, or not accept your commitment the next time around.
It's like giving up your reservation at a restaurant. You can call back in later and try to get another on, but it might not be available the second time around.
It's a distinction without a difference, in reality.
I think it's a distinction that usually has no difference, it reality. Terry Richardson thought about taking visits, and Hoke told him he wouldn't save his spot for him if he visited, so he didn't. Now, we ended up losing our other CB recruit, and ended up whiffing on our others. Had Richardson visited, and ultimately decided he wanted to come back, I bet we would have taken him.
In most instances, you're right though. This is the case for most decommitments - they rarely end up as recommitments to the same school.
i stll cringe when i hear that phrase after being beaten over the head with it by every law professor at UM - except JJ White who just said "that is fking stupid." true story. JJ White, pimp of all that is commercial paper.
I don't see anything wrong with this. It seems possible that Meyer never would have offered him had he been the coach all along. This ultimatum was a way to honor the previous staff's offer while acknowledging that if he opened up his recruitment he probably wouldn't be offered again.
The most interesting part of that article to me was seeing Meyer say that he wasn't really a fan of Dunn.
Yeah I'm with you. It wasn't necessarily a shady move by Meyer, but more a dumb decision by Dunn to choose Ohio after that happened. To me that shows that Meyer didn't really want him all that much or he wouldn't have been willing to pull his offer. I think the policy of if you visit other schools then you are no longer committed would have to be adjusted a bit in a situation where there was a new coaching staff and a ton of turmoil around the school. I'd be interested to know if any guys that Hoke convinced to stay in the 2011 class took other visits after he arrived. It's a unique situation and the players should be allowed to explore their options. I don't know if any of the other Ohio recruits were shopping around like Dunn, but the fact that he was willing to pull the offer in such a situation, combined with him saying he wasn't a fan of him tells me that Meyer was just trying to win a recruiting battle rather than get a kid he wanted on the team. Dunn will regret this decision. Mark my words.
Eh... Not a big deal if we take our maize and blue glasses off for a moment. Given that Dunn's flirtations with Michigan had become pretty hot and heavy by the time Meyer was hired (he watched The Game from our sideline, fergodsakes), I don't blame him for telling Dunn to shit or get off the pot.
Honestly I think that Dantonio probably did something similar with Burbridge- like if Michigan had really told him that they wouldn't take his commitment until he got the grades to actually qualify, it would have been easy for MSU to (falsely) tell him that unless he committed right then and there, they would pull his offer. I'm not saying I know anything, just a theory.
Dantonio did the ultimatum with Frank Clark. Worked out for us.
I think you both have made good points that are very insightful and would apply to most highly touted recruits. I'm just thinking if Burbridge in particular knew that he wanted to stay close to home and Michigan and MSU were far and away his top schools (which seems very likely; I don't remember there being any other major players in his recruitment) then that tactic would work. And then again maybe I'm just really overthinking this whole thing since I'm making like half a dozen assumptions. Occam's razor and all that.
If you're that scared that a visit could sway the kid from his dream team. It's a straight up dirty tactic too, I feel bad for Dunn.
This is like saying a guy shouldn't be scared his girlfriend still wants to date other guys,, it's letting you know they aren't as committed as they're teling you ...Coaches (remeber Hoke does this too) are only really saying that If you are committed to Us, Act accordingly. We keep forgetting that at the time, WE were the ones trying to POACH Dunn from OSU
The guy chose the enemy, get over it
Brown was told that he would not be considered "committed." This story says that Dunn would no longer have an offer. There is a huge difference between the two.
In one case, Hoke said that he wouldn't hold a spot in the class for someone who is still undecided. This only makes sense. Hoke will hold spots for firm commitments, and continue to recruit to fill any openings. If you aren't committed, there is no guarantee of a spot. If you are still considering other schools, you aren't truly committed. In the OSU case, if the story is true, Meyer said that he would no longer want the guy at all if he wanted to explore his options. This is not at all the same as saying there is not a guarantee of a spot for an undecided recruit.
Either way, the coaching staff is saying: "Don't jerk us around. If you're committed don't visit elsewhere."
Which is fine... As long as you give the kid a choice.
In hindsight, Britonte should have de-committed really early, still saying Ohio was top choice, but looking around. That way Urbs would have the chance to recruit him, instead of using tactics like this to keep him committed.
That would have given Brionte the freedom to visit whoever and whenever he wanted.
Telling someone that they don't have an offer and telling someone that they are no longer considered committed are distinctly different situations. Especially in the case with Dunn who was a commit in title only. No one's saying it's a big deal or dirty or anything like that; it just seemed like kind of a drastic step for someone who's a lights-out recruiter to take.
I don't see anything wrong with it. He was committed to OSU but kept visiting their biggest rival and even stood on our sideline during The Game. Why would he want a valuable scholarship spot taken by someone who keeps hinting at committing to another school? Urban made him choose and he did. I'm sure he's at where he belongs.
This doesn't strike me as particularly crude or nefarious. Hoke (and most other coaches) do this from time to time, and practically speaking Meyer was never going to pull Dunn's offer because Dunn is a highly-regarded recruit at a position of need. Dun chose OSU over UM, and that's fine. Wish the kid the best except when he plays UM. Move along.
A quote, that is, from Meyer directly. My immediate reaction to the headline was, "Huh, that's interesting; I wonder who ratted out that story?" As it turns out, it was Meyer himself. No questions, no doubt, no apologies, no hedging. Straight-up. Is there a more no-bullshit coach in all of college football?
Have you? I might agreee with you. I just haven't witnessed it.
I think it is sort of beyond doubt that as Meyer's DC, Mattison and Meyer were probably kindred spirits. I imagine that being a No Bullshit guy is what it takes to succeed, on Meyer's staff, as well as being the DC of the Baltimore Ravens, one of the nation's toughest street gangs.
...of the defensive players during Moeller's tenure as HC. His style must have run some of those guys away.
And no, that's not a valid comparison with what I was saying. Brady Hoke is a by all accounts a very nice guy and by virtually all accounts a good football coach.
But no, he's almost as canned and as non-forthcoming as was Lloyd Carr. All of that coach-speak. The return of "Fort Schembechler;" and according to a lot of past football letterwinners, that is sort of what they expect and what they like. Brady Hoke's public revelation-per-word ratio (need charts) is probably as bad as Carr's, and undoubtedly worse than Schembechler, Moeller or Rodriguez.
I can fill you in on Brady Hoke's next two pressers; He loves these kids. He needs to see senior leadership, because it is all built around senior leadership. The season will depend on that, not him. The kids have a long way to go, but he likes their effort. They are learning, but they need to finish. It is all about finishing with Team 133. Finish the job. In November. Beat Ohio.
Actually, I didn't mean "No bullshit" as an automatic compliment to Urban Meyer. Like, I don't see Brady Hoke walking away from a reporter, turning around and walking back to verbally tear the reporter's face off for something the reporter said or wrote. Live, on camera. I don't see Brady Hoke saying, "Yeah, Mattision and I got on the phone with the kid -- on a speakerphone, together, at the same time -- and we both told him that if he visits Ohio State he better like it there because that is where he is going." Even if it were true.
These are the words of a "no bullshit" coach, heh?
“I made this clear to Jeremy Foley (Florida Athletic Director), if I am able to go coach, I want to coach at one place, the University of Florida. It would be a travesty, it would be ridiculous to all of a sudden come back and get the feeling back, get the health back, feel good again and then all of a sudden go throw some other colors on my shirt and go coach? I don’t want to do that. I have too much love for this University and these players and for what we’ve built.” —Urban Meyer, after resigning at UF the first time.
Pharaoh Brown I.e
stands for "id est", which roughly equates to "that is".
e.g. stands for exempli gratia, or "for example". Here you would want to use e.g., were you a grammar nazi such as myself.
Again: Michigan does the same thing. So do many or most top-tier programs. Move on. Nothing to see here.
I don't see anything wrong with what URB did. Theres two sides here, your either with us or with Ohio. Dunn chose Ohio and thats it. Moving on, we will be fine and our recruiting has a greater upside than Ohio. If the fiasco at Penn St would not have happend Ohio would of had a not so significant class. Unfortunately for URB we are on the UP and Ohio is faultering in their own state.
they may be faltering in ohio but i guarantee meyer will invade SEC country with some pretty successful results.
I guess that depends on what you consider faltering in Ohio?
is there an emoticon for "meh."
What's up with that writer. Is he an ex-buckeye, or a wannabe-douche, or what? Did anybody else feel like he totally backed Meyer in this absurdity?
"While many people assume one of the top running backs in Ohio would be guaranteed to be a Buckeye for his collegiate career, his indecision nearly cost him a spot with Meyer. But thanks to an excellent home visit, Dunn will be able to bring his bulldozing style of play to Columbus for the next three to four years."
How does "one of top receivers in country nearly gets screwed over by Ohio football jerkoff" equate to "one of top receivers in country is thanking the heavens that he gets to play for Ohio football jerkoff?"
I had to laugh at this one -
"According to Brandon Castel of theOzone.net, Meyer said, “We told him, you are not going to visit there, and if you do, you better like it because that’s where you are going to go.” Meyer and former head coach Luke Fickell’s words must have had an impact on Dunn, because shortly after he cancelled that visit to Michigan."
I would have loved to have him as a Wolverine, but he got called on his bluff. If Hoke did this I would be laughing and praising his "cut to the chase" attitude.
I always look for little things that entertain me:
When the Buckeyes announced Meyer would take over, Dunn considered de-committing from Ohio State due to Meyer’s spread offense. Dunn rushed for over 5,700 yards during his high school career, and at the time didn’t see how he would fit in Meyer’s offense which has never produced a 1,000-yard rusher at the collegiate level.
Then the article goes on to say:
His skill set will be a great addition to the Buckeyes, as they go into the 2012 season looking to replace graduated senior Daniel “Boom” Herron. Despite being suspended six games last season, Herron was the Buckeyes’ most dependable back, and now that he is gone the team will be looking for another every-down back.
I just don't see how he'll be used as he should be. I don't know how he'll be a "great addition." His greatest addition is that he's a subtraction from Ohio State's greatest rival. Meyer doesn't have a history of producing great power backs. He might say that he's going to change his offense or this and that, but history says otherwise. I just find this whole situation funny.
Meyer will win some battles; Michigan will win some battles. That's all to it.
dont I remember reading he was in Ann Arbor on our sideline when we played OSU?
why dont we just send the pictures to Urban now?
Doesn't have a problem with it ; we shouldn't
I wonder if this will be a tactic he uses against us in other close head to head battles or whether it was a one time thing.
The answer is yes.
At some point, you need to know where you stand when it comes to any "sale". Either someone is on board or they are not. Anyway you want to position it, it is not really surprising or concerning to me. Meyer asked for a solid commitment and closed the deal with someone who had already committed to OSU.
He actually would have been dropped about 3 visits earlier if it was the other way around. He grew up wanting to be a Buckeye, good luck to him and this year we got Smith who grew up a Wolverine fan with the same skill set.
On to the next story.....
Though he won't say so, you have to wonder if Dunn resents it on some level or will wonder what might have been.
I don't think we'll see much of Brionte during his career. Meyer bascially said he didn't like his style of play, but offered him because his family is great.
My Interpretation: I didn't really want him. But I like the kid and really didn't want him to go to Michigan.
Good luck Brionte. You'll make a good linebacker.
....sort of lead me to believe that Urban Meyer is trying to find ways to say, "This is Ohio" in a more emphatic way than simply shadowing the recruiting trail of other Big Ten schools, most notably Michigan.
I don't know that browbeating people into maintaining their commitment to a school is necessarily works out well from a psychological standpoint in the long run (apparently Urban thinks autocratic management is different than what Ohio had before), but if Meyer feels that this is how you foster loyalty and build a recruiting class, then I guess we can test his theory on the field every November.
Dunn is definitely talented, of course, and part of me wonders if Meyer really would have pulled the offer if he had visited Michigan for that reason alone, especially if his view of Dunn was as transmorgrified by the in-home visit as he claims. I have to believe that Urban is not so stupid that he would incinerate bridges without having thought it over first. Of course, part of me wonders why Luke Fickell was on a conference call to provide constructive guidance on something...
When are fans going to stop acting like fans, fercryingoutloud?
It is funny to watch the ebb and flow of some of these long threads. This one rises, dies, and rises again, courtesy of someone who can't be bothered to read anything before throwing out their own epistle, or someone who lacks comprehension.
"When are fans going to stop acting like fans, fercryingoutloud?"
What do you want fans to act like?
He wanted to visit Oregon and when he did we pretty much cut ties. Or am I misunderstanding something?
Read the rest of the fucking thread.
It's Urban Meyer's scholarship offer and he can do with it whatever he pleases. No one forced Dunn to go to Ohio State. Hell, no one forced him to commit to OSU early either. He could have not early committed anywhere and Urban and Co. would have been totally fine with him taking visits, but once you commit to a school that means you commit to a school--whether you've signed a letter or not. Put a real world spin on it: you're engaged to your fiancee, but you say "hey, I want to go on a date with some other girl, I wont do anything with her, but I want to see what she has to offer, and maybe I'll marry her instead." Your fiancee would have every right to say, "go to hell, you committed to me, if you go flirt with someone else, I'm leaving you behind and I'll find someone else, and if that other girl turns out to be not as good as me and you want me back, well too bad, you shouldnt have flirted with someone else when you were committed to me," and every one would applaud her for it. Look at it without a dog in the fight. Urban doesn't have the space or time to dick around with maybes. Committed means committed, if you don't want to be committed anymore then de-commit, but don't expect a spot to be reserved. And if you're commited to somene, you shouldn't be upset if that person gets pissed if you want to flirt elsewhere, do that before you commit.
Stumbled accross this post on Urbie's practices. Interesting approach...