META: What is the point?

Submitted by Emarcy on

What is the point of Mgopoints?

     -status:  identify posters

          -quality vs trolls vs meh

     -currency:  medium of exchange

          -exchange of what = value

          -value = perceived value

               -value = status (importance varies by user)

               -value = powers (voting, threading, posting during disaster)

                    -voting = recognition of voice

                    -voting = enter the economy

 

Are we creating an economy or a community discussion?

 

we care

     way more

          than we should

but its

     college football man

          you know?

CRex

August 13th, 2010 at 9:23 AM ^

I always saw MGoPoints as being fun and kind of a rough measuring stick for the quality of content a person provides.  If someone makes a good point or a good joke, +1.  -1 to the jerks.  Since MGoPoints were basically free though you were always free to vote based on your feelings.  Once you got over 300 MGoPoints it didn't matter, because you could still post when Henri showed up.   

The deal is I feel like the new voting system has created economic rules that are rough on posters will smaller points totals.  I'm closing on 5k MGoPoints.  If say I have a net change of -20 MGoPoints in a day because I get myself negged or spend them on a troll, big freaking deal.   However for a poster sitting on 200 MGoPoints, that -20 is a much larger dong punch.  So for a guy with say 200 points, there is an incentive not to vote at all and simply hope for +1s.  Basically it creates a system where it is in the best interest of a lot of people not to vote if their goal to get a decent points total.  They also now have the extra cognitive load of having to worry if they really want to spend on a point on something or not.  

So I dislike this system because I remember last year when Henri first showed up and I was at ~70 MGoPoints.  Suddenly I couldn't post for periods and that really stunk.  I had to up my activity and scrounge around for quality posts until I got a decent ways over 300 and was immune to Henri.  I hope Henri doesn't pop us this year, because I'll bad for the newer members who are fighting to get their points totals up, as these rules will only make it harder.   

willywill9

August 13th, 2010 at 9:35 AM ^

I really agree with this.  I had a really rough week of work, missed all that is Michigan football for the most part.  I came back to this site and was caught completely off guard.  I can't say whether or not I like the changes (it's too early to tell) but I think the point system needs adjustments.  This is like a weird social psych experiment or something.  It's too early to tell, but it looks like there are less +1s from what I've seen so far today.

EDIT: I just realized an added advantage is that people will be more inclined to explain why they +1 or -1 someone.

Ernis

August 13th, 2010 at 10:21 AM ^

I like Brian's rationale. I'm sure he'll tweak again if a "real" problem (as real as problem can be when dealing with... ahem... Mgopoints) is revealed

Although unfair to many, increasing the cost of voting makes rational voting more prevalent, instead of herd mentality and voting based on emotion. The latter two phenomena, IMO, were having a negative effect on the board, dragging it into a quagmire of hormones and reptilian brain activity.

maizenbluedevil

August 13th, 2010 at 10:54 AM ^

Negged for pretentiousness.  

Even if it costs me I will neg a post like this every time.

"Herd mentality"?  The points were instituted as a system of self-moderation...  so...  by their very nature they are going to reflect the thoughts and feelings of the group.  

And, people are emotional creatures, get over it.  Heralding rationality that is unaffected by emotion as some sort of virtue to aspire to is not only ridiculous in its hypocrisy but it also denies the very thing which makes us human...  that we are both irrational and emotional creatures.  

maizenbluedevil

August 14th, 2010 at 5:08 AM ^

Absolutely not.

I'm just saying that acting like all human thought and interaction should be *purely* rational and completely unemotional is ridiculous.  

The reality is its always a mix of the two.  That's part of what makes us human and so for one to put on airs and pretend like their way of thinking is purely rational when others are obscured and hindered by mere emotion is really pretentious.

Furthermore we're on a sports message board, lol, this isn't the debate team.

Should we strive for intelligence in our comments?  Yes.  I do.  I think most here do.  But to act like pure reason without emotion is something the community here should aspire to here is just silly...  both in general human terms, and especially given the specific context of this board (sports)

I guess what I'm saying is reason and emotion do not preclude one another.

Ernis

August 14th, 2010 at 5:17 PM ^

Animals have emotion. Not that it matters, but rational thought (among a few other things) is what separates us from the rest of Kingdom Animalia, and so has more to do with being "human" than our evolved and conditioned brain-chemical responses to observed phenomena. Emotions are useful tools but need to be kept in moderation -- otherwise you get trapped in a death spiral of knee-jerk reactions and raging hormones, and end up like MLive.

If it's costly to neg a post, people are forced to be more tolerant of dissenting opinions. So, they will be more likely to only neg posts from real trolls or d-bags instead of just everyone who disagrees with the assumptions and opinions of the majority. I say it's a good thing -- keep the MGoBoard a cut above the rest.

MGoBender

August 13th, 2010 at 11:39 AM ^

Although unfair to many, increasing the cost of voting makes rational voting more prevalent, instead of herd mentality and voting based on emotion. The latter two phenomena, IMO, were having a negative effect on the board, dragging it into a quagmire of hormones and reptilian brain activity.

This.  Now people are required to actually think or defend a viewpoint.  God forbid.  The initial institution of points was great because it allowed Brian et. al. to quickly find trolls and bust out the banhammer.

Now, however, people have begun to obsess about them and overuse them.  I think, instead of engaging in discourse, people simply push an up or down button and are not forced to defend an opinion.  And then the herd piles on.  When a non-trolling post gets negged over a hundred times, there's problems.

psychomatt

August 14th, 2010 at 6:02 PM ^

Now, however, people have begun to obsess about them and overuse them.  I think, instead of engaging in discourse, people simply push an up or down button and are not forced to defend an opinion.  And then the herd piles on.  When a non-trolling post gets negged over a hundred times, there's problems.

I agree those are some of the most detrimental unintended consequences of the original point system. But I also guarantee the new changes will have their own unintended consequences, we just don't know what they are yet.

Personally, I wish they would scrap the whole point system altogether. I never thought it was very effective at keeping trolls off the board. If the mods see a thread or comment that is inappropriate, they can just delete it (they pretty much do that already). Eliminating the point system would at least put an end to all the arguing and obsessing over absolutely worthless points and let us all get back to arguing and obsessing over other far more important meaningless topics.

MGoShoe

August 13th, 2010 at 10:26 AM ^

...if you hadn't been spurred to become a more active contributor, we all may have missed your saga and MGoBlog would be the worse for it.  Perhaps this will spur more CRex quality postings from those that have been hesitant to post original content.

TIMMMAAY

August 13th, 2010 at 5:08 PM ^

Also, for those (like me) who have been around for a while and have accrued some points, if you can't spend as much time here as you previously had, it makes it hard to keep your points with year old points dropping off. If I stay as busy as I am now, all my points will be gone in another year...

I just can't be here as much as I used to.

Ryan

August 13th, 2010 at 8:01 PM ^

I'd like to hear an argument for why up-voting should cost a point.  I can get behind a point deduction for down-voting, as it will spare some unnecessary neg-bangs, but what's the incentive for a point deduction for up-votes?  Less circle-jerking perhaps?

 

I prefer good content be recognized and rewarded, and I think requiring others to give up points to do so will inhibit that tendency.

Ernis

August 14th, 2010 at 5:01 PM ^

The rationale presented was that some folks have set up a number of "sock puppet" accounts. Once they get each one to 20 points (the suffrage threshold), they use those accounts to upvote posts from their real account and build up point totals and exercise undue influence over the board.

Having upvotes cost a point would require greater maintenance of the sock puppet accounts, making them less common.

Tater

August 13th, 2010 at 9:55 AM ^

I think this will keep the overactive negbangers, like the person who seemed to go through negbanging every post on many threads a couple of weeks ago, from thoughtlessly using the neg button.  It will also have a negative effect on posbanging, but it is probably worth the trade-off. 

I think the changes will produce a lot less movement in points totals, and make it harder for trolls to "gain traction."  The "ten-day" rule will keep those with waaay too much time on their hands and enough points to lose from going back and negging every post a person has made for the last year, too. 

Whatever one's opinion on the changes, I think it is safe to say that Brian put a lot of thought into them, and that they will help further his vision of what mgoblog should be.  In other words, I'm "all in."

Don

August 13th, 2010 at 10:25 AM ^

The decision to charge points when negging was brilliant, since I've thought for months that it was out of control at various times. When the most innocuous, noncontroversial, common-sense comments get negged constantly, something has to be done, and Brian & Co did it in a way that doesn't require a heavy-handed police state to enforce it.

I feel very different about imposing a cost to upvote. I agree with the OP's point—this is a community, not an economy, and the notion of charging for registering your approval—even if it involves a purely fictional medium of exchange—seems frankly a bit bizarre in principle. It's not going to affect the time I spend here, and since I don't care about accumulating points it doesn't truly matter in practical terms, but I don't understand the necessity of doing it. Why exact a cost for saying "I agree" or "you're freaking hilarious?"

Michigan Shirt

August 20th, 2010 at 12:04 PM ^

If you get negged, it is very telling.

If you get an up vote, it is very telling.

If you don't get awarded any points, it is very telling.

On a more serious note, I feel that my low standing will definately dissuade me from voting until I get some more "money" to spend. They will stay in the bank unless there is a great item I need to "purchase" them on.

phild7686

August 13th, 2010 at 10:25 AM ^

Maybe Brian changed things up to distract us from Justin Turner, NCAA meetings in Seattle, and endless speculation. He just couldn't take 3 more weeks of it, so he made some changes knowing we would all talk about that, and then he'll change it back closer to the UConn game.

maizenbluedevil

August 13th, 2010 at 10:48 AM ^

I honestly think this is going to dillute the quality of the board.  

Here's why.

Originally when the MGoPoint system was initiated, Brian stated something to the effect that he instituted the system so the board could sort of self-moderate.  It's a way of encouraging quality posts and a deterrent to shitty posting.  

For the most part, it's worked well.

Now, however, it costs users points to in order to participate in the system and thus accomplish the goal the system was created for.  It penalizes users for doing the very thing we're supposed to do (self-moderating by making use of the points) which renders the whole thing incoherent.  

Now that it costs points to up or down vote, over time less people will do it.  With less consequences for mediocre or bad posting, it will start to happen more and more, just watch.  It won't happen overnight, but over time it will.  

Plus, in all honesty, sometimes I would just upvote a post that I agreed with as a way of saying "I agree", without making a post that says "I agree", which is useless and just clutters up the board....  But now it's going to cost me a point to do that?  WTF?  Upvotes, in this way, functioned not only as a means of self-moderating, but a way of participating in the discussion when I didn't have something substantial of my own to add to it but wanted to say "amen" to whatever someone else said....  So, now it costs all of us if we want to participate in a conversation in that way.  Don't like it at all.  

Anyhow, I'm not a fan of the change.  Please give me my old MGoBoard back.

Lutha

August 13th, 2010 at 11:57 AM ^

Gave you a +1 for agreeing with you, as you stated.  I just don't understand why people care so much about their Mgopoints when we all agree they mean nothing beyond the threshold to create new threads and hold off Henri when the board goes nuclear. 

I've continued to neg- and posbang people the same as I did before even if it costs me points, because quite frankly Mgopoints mean nothing.

 

EDIT: I do think that neg/posbanging provides valuable feedback to posters and this feedback loop--rationally or not--has been diminished by the change.

Geaux_Blue

August 13th, 2010 at 11:56 AM ^

if the ratio of + and - was 1:1

however, given the fact people incessantly neg while contributing little, we were having problems with sockpuppets and pissy users throwing a tilt on the system. frankly you don't need to +1 someone, or -1 them, unless you feel there is merit to it. after seeing a rather innocuous opinion get -30, it would probably now only get -5. from a moderation standpoint, that allows us to see where a BIG problem exists and not just a stupid pile-on. what's more, needing people to know their point is agreed to is not essential. and if you do agree, you likely have something to contribute on the matter so why not say "i agree. in my opinion, the defense yada yada yada." forcing this ALSO prevents people from feeling they need their own topic on the matter. 

as a balance, i'm a much bigger fan of the point system than the change in aesthetic.