Meta: A Call For Reason Re: How we Discuss the State of Affairs

Submitted by Space Coyote on

Warning: this is long, tl;dr people can skip. It's also me on a soap box. People that don't want that can skip, but I'm up here and I'm going to start talking. I've grown a pretty mean mustache and can talk like Ron Swanson, so for the rest, it's time to be quiet and listen (or at least read until the end).

In many circles, mgoblog is well known for its fairly well documented herd mentality, which is understandable to a degree. But things that have happened on this board and in the comments the past few days have seemed more akin to mlive than they have to this board. I've often played devil's advocate throughout my life, not because I want to be against the grain necessarily, but because I find it helps me at least come closer to the truth of the topic. Others haven't, and they don't deserve the treatment they are getting from a lot of this board.

I haven't seen it directly, but I'm sure people have at least thought of me as a "Borges apologist". That's fine if you want to think that. I know for a fact that most others that have even sniffed at passive support or defense of Borges have been called it. That's the definition of a straw man. That's pointing out that someone has a different opinion than you and that it inherently makes them incorrect. I've seen numerous times people trying to bring relevant, only for the majority herd to group up on the person with the differing opinion. That’s weak. It’s stymies discussion. It stymies understanding. It stymies this blog.

On a different but related note…

“Fat arrogant fuck.” That’s about as tame as it’s been at times the past couple days. It’s not that my ears are sensitive to that language, because I was a kid once and thought I was cool and tough and said things much worse than that. But it’s just that, childish. These are puerile comments that have never been allowed on this blog, not about any coach, player, or coordinator, and suddenly being allowed en masse. Talk about an mlive culture. Talk about not only degrading to the staff that is working hard to make you happy, but degrading the blog that we’re using to vent. I get it, you’re angry, you want to vent. But do so with reason, with actual thought, not like a bunch of drunks. I’m sure there a drunk blogs for that sort of thing (seriously, I’m sure there are, but it’s probably easier to stay away from those). I’m getting tired of sifting through a ton of turd-burgling, shit-spewing, hot garbage comments like these, that contain nothing new, informative, and meaningful, just so I can try to have a meaningful discussion about something in between it.

This post really isn’t about me. I know I’m on the other side of the tidal force here, but I’ve build up enough blog credibility that my pseudonym is likely to stay intact. But to act this way to others that are putting some credibility, and likely some sort of enjoyment they can get out of being a Michigan fan and discussing with other fans and being a part of this community on the line only to get mobbed, well… that sucks.

I’ll probably get called a “Borges apologist” rather quickly in this thread. I, like Borges, will also probably fairly quickly get called some sort of insult as well (“why can’t we say it if it’s the truth?”). That’s fine, as defined by playground/man code, that’s deserved. But if it starts here with some of those comments and ends here with those types of comments, then at least the board will be somewhat more readable and hopefully much more enjoyable for the majority of people then what it’s become the past few days. It’s not going to be happy, because Michigan didn’t win, but it doesn’t have to be this.

\Steps off soap box, goes to buy a burrito.

SAvoodoo

October 16th, 2013 at 8:21 PM ^

Oh yea? You're a dooty head! Take that space coyote!



Seriously though, solid post. I have tried to avoid the site because it's been a lot of knee-jerk monkey poop flinging rather than actual dialogue. I'm not a regular Magnus/bisb/space coyote but I do frequent the site multiple times a day, and it hasn't been the same since the loss of negbangs. Even during the RR struggles it wasn't as low-brow and reactionary as it is how (immediately after the game sure but certainly not as late in the week as Wednesday night). Just my thoughts, not that they're going to make much of a difference.



Tl;dr I blame Ed Martin, as I do with all else in the world.

MGoLogan

October 16th, 2013 at 8:31 PM ^

SC, thank you for this post. You are one of my favorite posters on this site and I, for one, greatly appreciate the knowledge you share with those of us that are not experts on the X's and O's of football.

StephenRKass

October 16th, 2013 at 9:03 PM ^

I haven't gone on the blog at all the last two days. I love Borges, and would be dismayed to see him fired. I really want to see things go all the way through the next season.

But the point of your post is the recent descent into darkness and the mob mentality to lynch Borges. I really, really, hate the lack of civility and the "Boo Wendy Tesatburger" level of discourse. I hate snarky comments. I love the team and will support them, and feel that they will do well enough this year, and much better next year. AA Torch and Pitchfork is driving me further from the blog.

Thank you, Space Coyote. Oh, and I hope you are a Borges apologist and explain what he's doing and why it isn't working and what needs to happen.

p.s.  The lack of kindness and consideration and the potty mouth stuff and internet tough guy comments are really rich, considering the anonymity of posters. Ya know what I'd like even more than sending people to Bolivia? For mods to post names, phone numbers, email addresses, and the like of those who have crossed the line. Let some of the tough guys stand behind what they say in real life. I'd love to see some of the OL show up at the dorm room doors of some of the people on the blog who are ripping them to shreds.

B-Nut-GoBlue

October 16th, 2013 at 9:58 PM ^

 Ya know what I'd like even more than sending people to Bolivia? For mods to post names, phone numbers, email addresses, and the like of those who have crossed the line. Let some of the tough guys stand behind what they say in real life. I'd love to see some of the OL show up at the dorm room doors of some of the people on the blog who are ripping them to shreds.

Man, I love this.  Won't happen and I admit shouldn't happen, but the liability factor would definitely help temper people I'd wager.  This would go more for trolls but also the frequent-occasional (oxymoron, but kinda true) "ourbursts" of namecalling and overall immature BS and such from people that should know better.  Take responsibilty for your actions and words.  There are good things about internet annonyminity but acting like an A-hole/stuck up butthole/constant sh*t stirrer/etc. because people simply can and because their face isn't tied to it all, is not one of them.

B-Nut-GoBlue

October 17th, 2013 at 12:30 AM ^

You want people calling your home phone number to harass your family because of something you said on the internet?

Absolutely not but then again that's the point, I'm pretty even keeled (though I do get pissed) and I don't say things on here I wouldn't in "real life".  It's the few, select people who don't think and embarrass themselves and bring up topics to stir sh*t that would hypthetically get put on blast and the above would be the punishment!

All that said, I agree though, that it just wouldn't be a good idea.

profitgoblue

October 17th, 2013 at 10:34 AM ^

You know I like your Mr.Kass but this is the worst idea to hit the Board.   I understand your point - people need to treat each other like real people rather than hiding behind the internets - but the idea is really bad.   The ramifications of what you propose are 10000x times worse than having to deal with the troll.  Trolls that get outed are going to make life horrible for the person that outs them, no matter how much they deserve to be ridiculed.  As such, If I ever see personal information posted about anyone (friend or foe) I'm going to personally see to it that the poster gets banned and hunted.  I think Brian and the mods feel the same.

/not a tough guy, just a touchy subject

maizenbluenc

October 16th, 2013 at 9:01 PM ^

I agree with you. To mix metaphors: the mob headed over the cliff and is rolling the ship too far to one side when we are better off manuevering on an even keel. Now we need to find a way to get back on the wagon after a week long bender.

I agree calling names is not a constructive way to criticize the coaching staff, nor apparently is calling bubble screens.

I think we as fans need to move on from, and see where we get. Nothing else we can do really. And to continue 200 line threads of Fire Borges isn't doing anything productive at this point.

So ..... it's all been said, over and over, be nice, and cheer for the success of the players.

PS Reading the DetNews John Wangler chat may help people feel a little better too:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131015/SPECIAL01/131014001/Read-re…

ChopBlock

October 16th, 2013 at 10:45 PM ^

I think this blog would be a whole lot happier if people just closed their laptops, powered off their phones, and went for half-hour walk in the beautiful fall weather. We'd still be pissed about losing in a really absurd way, but I think the vitriol would less.

Yeah, this sure is rage-inducing:

 

 

 

gbdub

October 16th, 2013 at 10:54 PM ^

Jesus there is so much fucking snow in that picture. And those damn rocks? My knees are gonna hurt like hell tomorrow. Damn it all to hell, how are we going to drive gone through that? I bet the heater is broken again.



Fire BorgRod!

Amutnal

October 16th, 2013 at 11:14 PM ^

SC, Would you say that 100+ teams have better building blocks than our offensive line and that other coaching staffs would run into the same problems if they were to coach these same players? Didn't Buffalo blow the doors off Akron? Didn't Indiana blow out Penn State? If we struggle against MSU and Ohio that's one thing. Struggling against Akron and UConn is another.



I think it's ludicrous to accept this level of futility at Michigan as a result of the rebuilding process. Please explain to me how it could be THIS bad and part of the overall plan - in year 3.



By the way, an indirect quote from former player who works for an NFL team, "He's the freakin' head coach, he should wear a fucking headset." If Hoke cannot embrace something so basic that every other coach does to minimize the chance for stupid things happening in critical moments, it makes me question his capacity as a head coach. He is literally putting his job entirely in Borges' hands.

Sione's Flow

October 16th, 2013 at 11:15 PM ^

Good change of pace with this thread. I think alot of the animosity has manifested, because the season started ideally. Then it was like between the ND and Akron games the wheels fell off. Gardner's turnovers have made Borges hesitant to air it out, which in turn has led to the offensive line running a blocking scheme that it's not prepared to execute yet, which has led to virtually no running game, which necessitates throwing more, which could lead to more turnovers. It's a vicious cycle.

93Grad

October 16th, 2013 at 11:45 PM ^

But I wonder how much years and years of below-expectations football has contributed to the sour moods around here. I know I for one enjoy Michigan football a lot less then I used to and I'm crankier on the board as a result.

Yeoman

October 17th, 2013 at 1:21 AM ^

We routinely get posts here outlining expectations that no program in history has been able to maintain for more than a decade or so, and certainly not in the 85-scholarship era: average 11 wins a year, never go worse than 9-3, etc. We went 40 years without a losing season and even that wasn't good enough.

FGB

October 17th, 2013 at 12:12 AM ^

Are herd mentality one way (FIRE BORGES!) or the other (You guys are over-reacting, we lost one game). Right now, it's heavily FIRE BORGES, but a lot of the You're Overreacting guys aren't exactly being reasonable about the discussion either.

When someone lists a bunch of explicit factual grievances with Borges, responses like "Tell me exactly who you would hire instead of Borges, I want a name because without that your point is useless" or "You're so smart, if running directly into the line for no gain is so terrible, then what play would you run that is guaranteed to work" is insulting to intelligent discussion in its own right. It's not as noxious as "He's fat and arrogant and must be fired", but it's non-responsive in a different way.

 

 

markusr2007

October 17th, 2013 at 9:50 AM ^

Express an opinion, and then someone responds with "Show me your homework"' like Im some kind of ignorant pupil, and must substantiate my view with a detailed dissertation? Why? Because my opinion's validity is pointless without that? Meanwhile, "fire borges!" And fat jokes rain down. Thats whats really pointless. But i support the OP's lament. As a UM fan, this has been a frustrating aftermath week.

WTF

October 17th, 2013 at 2:20 AM ^

There is no civility to appeal to here. The base is at heart base, and rightfully passionate. Football is a game of emotion as much or more so than X's and O's. You lose - it hurts. You move on. I read over the crass and take it as it comes.

Every ounce of goodness is 10 times more read that commented on. Every civil comment is appreciated in it's due. The meta gives play to the Michigan mystique which has always been misguided.

Borges apologist!

ilah17

October 17th, 2013 at 5:22 AM ^

I agree. I know these kids are getting free room & board and all these other great perks, and the coaches are paid to win games, but it still doesn't feel good to see such hateful, unconstructive things said about them on the Internet. It makes me mad when non-UM fans just call Coach Hoke a fat slob instead of critiquing his actual coaching - I can't believe actual UM fans are doing the same thing to Coach Borges.

mgobleu

October 17th, 2013 at 6:26 AM ^

I didn't get to see the game. I only caught the OT on the radio. Since then I've checked in on a couple of the front page posts but basically I just haven't wanted to be around here. This morning I was finally brave enough to look into the board topics; this place is all "sucks to your ass-mar!" and, "you shut your ass up! I've got the conch!" and, "nom, nom, nom, let's eat that guy next..."

I think I'm going to climb back in my boat and continue to watch the island from afar until society is redeveloped.

TESOE

October 17th, 2013 at 10:15 AM ^

Where is the 500 point rule?  These sorts of meltdowns are to be expected.  In the past Brian has dealt with them by limiting posting to 500 points.  Let that be the rule ( for 5000 points - whatever ) and be done with it.

Looking under the hood of MGoBloggers is not a pretty picture.  I don't think meta pleas are going to open closed ears.

chatster

October 17th, 2013 at 10:22 AM ^

I’ve come here with opinions and rarely to curse;
I’m typically negged for just writing in verse.
I’ve read your full post.  You’re not out of line.  
Your opinions are thoughtful, well-reasoned and fine.
So much written here since last Saturday night
May seem way too harsh and quite simply not right.
Despite four overtimes and a very close score,
With each loss, you’ll get cursing and whining and more.
Like, “They can’t open holes.”  “Fu*k it; Manball” is dead.”
“What the hell was that play?”  “Damn it; just run the spread.”
“The O-Line really sucks. Their blocking’s not gorgeous.”
So who takes the blame?  Darrell Funk? Or Al Borges?
Don’t suppress fair opinions in whatever you write.
The MGoBlog Soapbox should give you that right.

k.o.k.Law

October 17th, 2013 at 12:46 PM ^

negative emotions are a stronger motivation to post and call sports talk radio.

I am a Michigan fan, I root for Michigan, be the coaches right or wrong.

I gave up booing, anyone, due to the following,

It had just come out that Ron Leflore had lied about his age when the Tigers signed him, basically out of prison.

Inebriated in the centerfield bleachers, I regaled him with such witticisms as:

Are the walls higher here, or at Jackson?

How old are you?  35?  You field like you're 45!!!

He could definitely hear me, as, could, apparently, Joe Falls, who wrote his column the next morning about the "Faceless Idiots" in the stands.

Turns out Billy Martin had told him just before game time that his brother had been shot and killed, and he did not have to play that day if he wanted to sit out.

On topic, I hope this blog does not turn into a venting outlet for the disturbed.

ChiBlueBoy

October 17th, 2013 at 5:59 PM ^

Thank you so much for sharing your story. We forget that these are real people trying to play, or coach, a game. I understand that passions will run wild, but the tendency on here and everywhere in our society to consider celebrities and athletes as some sort of inanimate objects put on earth solely for our entertainment, rather than real people with feelings like our own, is disconcerting.

I'm also grateful to SC for his thoughtful OP.