Meta: A Call For Reason Re: How we Discuss the State of Affairs

Submitted by Space Coyote on

Warning: this is long, tl;dr people can skip. It's also me on a soap box. People that don't want that can skip, but I'm up here and I'm going to start talking. I've grown a pretty mean mustache and can talk like Ron Swanson, so for the rest, it's time to be quiet and listen (or at least read until the end).

In many circles, mgoblog is well known for its fairly well documented herd mentality, which is understandable to a degree. But things that have happened on this board and in the comments the past few days have seemed more akin to mlive than they have to this board. I've often played devil's advocate throughout my life, not because I want to be against the grain necessarily, but because I find it helps me at least come closer to the truth of the topic. Others haven't, and they don't deserve the treatment they are getting from a lot of this board.

I haven't seen it directly, but I'm sure people have at least thought of me as a "Borges apologist". That's fine if you want to think that. I know for a fact that most others that have even sniffed at passive support or defense of Borges have been called it. That's the definition of a straw man. That's pointing out that someone has a different opinion than you and that it inherently makes them incorrect. I've seen numerous times people trying to bring relevant, only for the majority herd to group up on the person with the differing opinion. That’s weak. It’s stymies discussion. It stymies understanding. It stymies this blog.

On a different but related note…

“Fat arrogant fuck.” That’s about as tame as it’s been at times the past couple days. It’s not that my ears are sensitive to that language, because I was a kid once and thought I was cool and tough and said things much worse than that. But it’s just that, childish. These are puerile comments that have never been allowed on this blog, not about any coach, player, or coordinator, and suddenly being allowed en masse. Talk about an mlive culture. Talk about not only degrading to the staff that is working hard to make you happy, but degrading the blog that we’re using to vent. I get it, you’re angry, you want to vent. But do so with reason, with actual thought, not like a bunch of drunks. I’m sure there a drunk blogs for that sort of thing (seriously, I’m sure there are, but it’s probably easier to stay away from those). I’m getting tired of sifting through a ton of turd-burgling, shit-spewing, hot garbage comments like these, that contain nothing new, informative, and meaningful, just so I can try to have a meaningful discussion about something in between it.

This post really isn’t about me. I know I’m on the other side of the tidal force here, but I’ve build up enough blog credibility that my pseudonym is likely to stay intact. But to act this way to others that are putting some credibility, and likely some sort of enjoyment they can get out of being a Michigan fan and discussing with other fans and being a part of this community on the line only to get mobbed, well… that sucks.

I’ll probably get called a “Borges apologist” rather quickly in this thread. I, like Borges, will also probably fairly quickly get called some sort of insult as well (“why can’t we say it if it’s the truth?”). That’s fine, as defined by playground/man code, that’s deserved. But if it starts here with some of those comments and ends here with those types of comments, then at least the board will be somewhat more readable and hopefully much more enjoyable for the majority of people then what it’s become the past few days. It’s not going to be happy, because Michigan didn’t win, but it doesn’t have to be this.

\Steps off soap box, goes to buy a burrito.

reshp1

October 16th, 2013 at 7:23 PM ^

How the hell do you make the distinction? more importantly how do players and recruits? They just hear booing. A lot of recruits probably won't even know why since they probably didn't watch all our games. They'll just think we're dicks, and with good reason.

Honestly, what do you hope to accomplish besides making yourself feel better? Do you really think the coaches will change what they're doing? Do you think they will somehow try harder, as if they aren't already totally invested in winning?

Indiana Blue

October 17th, 2013 at 8:52 AM ^

the players know FULL WELL that the coaches didn't execute last Saturday.  Michigan dominated the 2nd half until the play calling halted our momentum (on the PSU 27 yard line).

Two consecutive Fitz runs for NO GAIN will bring a cascade of boo's ... and EVERYONE will know where the boo's are aimed.

reshp1

October 17th, 2013 at 10:20 AM ^

I respectfully disagree. The players and coaches are a lot closer to each other than either are to the fans. It's even more so in rough times, players and coaches know it's the guys in the lockeroom that matter and that need to stick together, not about what the fans are saying. Lockerooms where players are blaming the coaches are the exception and the sign of extreme disfunction (see: USC and Kiffen). You boo one, you are booing the other as well in their eyes.

BraveWolverine730

October 16th, 2013 at 5:57 PM ^

Fantastic post. I'm not sure Borges is the answer and I think some honest, frank questions can be asked about how effective his scheme/adjustments have been. That being said insulting his weight, insinuating that he doesn't care about his job/winning, or any of the such vitrol that has been spouted since Saturday is unnecessary. You'll almost never see me post in game threads or immediately after losses because I know I can't maintain perspective in the heat of the moment. I'd suggest many, many posters here do the same. 

TruBluMich

October 16th, 2013 at 6:03 PM ^

I'm all right with people having melt downs on SATURDAY, but this week at MGoBlog has been pretty depressing.  Why can't we just have an Al Borges Open Thread and a Michigan Offense Open Thread.  Every other post is the same stuff written by another person explaining the same thing that has been covered at least 100 times.



Let's move on and start discussing the positive parts of being a Michigan fan. 

George Blogha

October 16th, 2013 at 6:03 PM ^

that game I would still feel the way I do know. The offensive coordinator has and will cost Michigan wins going forward, and that's hard to stomach, but Mule's gonna mule.

soup-er-UM

October 16th, 2013 at 6:04 PM ^

Reading this blog I keep thinking I'm in the minority for not wanting to fire the OC immediately, but then I realize this place is a gigantic echo chamber.  I want to see, just once, Ace, Seth or BiSB or any mod for that matter actually disagree with Brian on something substantive.  Or point me to when it happened, because I haven't seen it. 

Putting aside for the moment that we have no idea what is out there for other OCs who would actually want to work here (expecially when you just fired the guy who was recruiting like a boss and just lost a 4OT game) and we're sitting at 5-1 with a game against Indiana coming up, this is the same OC who was flexible enough to run a spread for 2 years that was clearly out of his comfort zone, so now is stuck in the first year of trying to implement something like his system.  Yes, the OL has many issues, obviously, starting with the fact that we have 3 first-time starters there.  I don't know how to fix that mid-season, but I do know that unlike RichRod's teams on defense, we have an army of awesome and talented recruits coming in who will shore up the line. 

Borges lost 1 game in which we had a 33 yard field goal from the dead center of the field to win it.  How about we all relax a bit?  We all know he doesn't want to run the spread, but I'll bet anything Borges scores more points against OSU than RichRod did his last year. 

All of the above is exactly why you're (OP's) post reviewing the plays from the game in detail quarter by quarter was so helpful - we have more than one actually informed opinion on the play calls.

 

triangle_M

October 16th, 2013 at 7:49 PM ^

Echo chamber is one way of putting it, but when you control the content and the lens through which it is seen through, it becomes a cult of personality.  Which, yes, the blog isn't technically a public space, and we're all guests here, et cetera.   These are the pitfalls of confirmation bias and the front page contributors here are not immune - which is why I enjoy the Space Coyote's posts as they routinely provide an alternate and equally if not more plausible view of things.    

If you listened to the podcast, you would get the impression that the OC is a complete moron.  I wonder how many programs are banging on the doors of bloggers to come save their teams from the veteran coaches. 

OmarDontScare

October 16th, 2013 at 9:36 PM ^

MGoBlog has become so popular because it's a place with well thought out and reasoned analysis. I thought Borges was a moron on Saturday night well before the podcast.

Maybe Brian and Ace know what they're talking about? Sometimes things are so obvious that the masses are right.

soup-er-UM

October 17th, 2013 at 12:15 PM ^

the "sheep" comment is not really correct.  The blog is not full of sheep generally (although Brian's opinion is generally taken as gospel, which was the point there), but the people who are prone to overreact and all agree are the ones who post in times of woe and want such as these.  People are looking for answers, and Brian sells the only blog that's got em (sort of).

George Blogha

October 17th, 2013 at 1:33 PM ^

how you see fit, but to me the apologists just sound like Baghdad Bob. That game was so ridiculous I wasn't sure who I was rooting for at the end of game. I was so pissed at whatever it was the mule we have for an offensive coordinator was trying to do that I was almost relieved that PSU won. Competence won out over fucking muleball, as it should.

mGrowOld

October 16th, 2013 at 6:06 PM ^

While I agree with on the name calling I do have to point out that the reason the intensity level racheted back up today was concurrent with his press release where Al basically "doubled down" on what appears to the vast majority of the board to be a deeply flawed strategy.  I know for me personally I was miffed about the game on Saturday (and probably only just miffed) until Borges basically blamed the players for not properly executing his gameplan instead of admitting the gameplan itself was horrible.

In business when I have always been taught to deliver good news anytime but to deliver bad news with a plan.  Al's "plan", so it seems, is to continue on the same path we are on now but with different players.  Which is the height of arrogance IMO given what an impossible position he put those players in most of Saturday.

Fire Borges.  Am I allowed to say that or is that being uncivil?

HAIL 2 VICTORS

October 16th, 2013 at 6:59 PM ^

MGrowOld I have no issue with you saying "fire borges" but the implication is to fire him mid saeason with no idea if we have a better play caller to take over and that sounds like a terrible plan to me.

This team is 5-1 with plenty of football to be played and much at stake as they could be 6-6 or perhaps 9-3 considering the talent and schedule.  "Fire Borges" is not the sensible civil plan to take action with in the now.

I am just as frustrated as you are and I want to see some changes against Indiana.  I want to see Funchess, Dileo, Gallon and Norfleet in the spread and run from that with 5 blockers facing 5 down linemen.  I want to see us take the 5 yards the defense gives playing 15 yards off Gallon when they play cover 1 with 8 in the box.  I want to see some misdirection and more zone read.  As much as I would like to se Al Borges in contrition I would much prefer to see him take what the defense gives him.

Plenty of football left to play allow him his 90 days to right the ship before calling for his head.  Al was at 100% of plan just last week at 5-0. 

Indiana Blue

October 17th, 2013 at 8:59 AM ^

that is PRECISELY why Borges needs to go.  It is his job to know our strengths and weaknesses, and it is VERY clear that we cannot run against an 8 man in the box defense.  Yet that is what he called ... time after time. There is tons of visual evidence - how can Devin not be allowed to audible when he sees this?  It's not like PSU was hiding their strategy.

Plain and simple ... Borges is NOT doing his job to make this team successful.

 

reshp1

October 17th, 2013 at 10:25 AM ^

You're missing the point though. We fans tend to see only one snippet of the whole picture and when things aren't going well, we immediately what change, sometimes drastic change, without fully comprehending the impacts of the changes. Borges may well deserve to be fired, but it won't be without negative consequences and there's absolutely no guarantee the next guy will be do any better given the constraints of the team right now. Things absolutely need to get fixed, but I seriously don't think fans are privy to all the information they need to know the best way to make those changes. "Fire Borges" just seems like the most obvious one from the stands or tv screens.

reshp1

October 16th, 2013 at 7:04 PM ^

Fair, but people also heard a lot of what they wanted to hear, things that already supported what they'd already decided about Borges.

"Because the power game wasn’t as good, you can’t just say, “We’re not going to do it anymore." was the first thing people took issue with. But he followed up the next sentence with "You still have to sprinkle it in. What we did in the second half was we threw the ball more, created a few big plays, and did a pretty good job." That's perfectly reasonable. Even air raid teams don't totally not run. You can criticize when we ran and how much we ran, but what he said is totally reasonable and consistent with 99% of coaches out there.

People had a problem with the bubble screen thing, which, fair enough. Honestly, I did too. Then again, he's not the first coach to bristle a little when reporters tell them how to do their jobs.

None of it is an excuse to fly off the handle like some people have.

mGrowOld

October 17th, 2013 at 12:03 AM ^

Guilty as charged.  More than miffed.

But in my defense you will notice the comments definitely spike in their intensity after I saw his press conference.  And I never called him names - I just think he's horrible at his job and for reasons I cant begin to fathom, he seems to think he's doing great.

And sadly, so does his boss it seems.

MadMonkey

October 16th, 2013 at 6:07 PM ^

Once social organizations reach a state of static equilibrium, entropy begins to occur. The degradation of the system unit of entire system is then only a function of time. This unintended process occurs until the system is thrown out of its static state with new inputs or process changes, or the system fails. To challenge the onslaught of entropy, system thinkers are required to continuously expand their knowledge of the scope and complexity of their system. Once they can identify a way to for the component or process to evolve, the risk of entropy is lessened. After new actions are taken or inputs are changed, the process to avoid system decline due to entropy begins again. Once growth has stopped, the decline of the system is inevitable.

charblue.

October 16th, 2013 at 6:12 PM ^

And this blog covers the winningest program in college football. And for some time now, this program has not performed up to its historical record. 

And I believe in truth-telling. And I think that honest appraisal no matter how debilitating the manner in which it is conveyed expresses how we think and live, even if we dislike the manner in which it is offered. It is what it is. 

I have followed this team my entire life. I didn't attend the school but I believe in its principles. And there is no question that this is one arrogant, entitled fan base. It is used to winning. It is used to great achievement. 

But it also knows when it's being lied to. And that is the case in connection with the way this offense is being run. And the evidence is self-evident. We don't need an expert to point the bs out. We can see it for ourselves. And it's not on the players, unless you believe that they ought to be able to do what many pro football players are incapable of doing. 

 

Reader71

October 17th, 2013 at 11:02 AM ^

I don't think this is true.

Football is certainly a results-based business. So I suppose if an offense underperforms, the coordinator is to be blamed. But the problem with your argument is that nothing is self-evident.

I look at this line and think that every coordinator on earth would struggle with it. To confuse matters further, the offense has look good in spurts, as evidenced by our being in position to win @PSU despite spotting them the ball at the 14- and 20- yard lines in the 1st half.

If that sounds like an apologia, it really isn't. If we fire Borges, I wouldn't bat an eye. "No man is more important than the team". But this is the place we come to talk about stuff. This is why I've been spazzing out for weeks about how this line is the worst ever. To me, it seems self-evident. Apparently, it isn't. More to the point, people keep insisting that there is an offense to be had that does not depend on blocking people. As much as id like to see that offense - out of sheer curiosity - I'd hate to see it at Michigan, because I couldn't imagine it being able to win games.

I've been trying to discuss why we suck, in detail, and asking if Borges should be fired and if that will fix anything. That's all. But I've been attacked personally or had my thoughts dismissed as those of an apologists. I'm not sensitive enough for it to really matter, and I only care about the opinion of 5-7 guys on here w/r/t football theory, but I do think its bad form for the board.

A2YpsiBlue

October 16th, 2013 at 6:17 PM ^

Said what I have felt. I've read most every word that gets posted on the blog for a while but wading through all of the "fuck this" comments has been wearing.

hackattack13

October 16th, 2013 at 6:20 PM ^

Placing the blame on one individual, player or coach, is always impossible.  A missed field goal, a nearly tipped/intercepted pass, a near first down spot (I think they still got the review wrong), a miss thrown pass, a missed tackle, miss block, a bad play call, etc all contributed to the loss.  We simply need to take this as a learning experience and grow from it.  Also, I agree about a level of maturity on the board.  I avoided reading the blog for days after the loss so I didnt have to hear all the negativity/profanity.  Football is a game, not life or death.  Enjoy it, root on your team, root for the health/saftey of everyone, quietly sulk for a few hours after a loss and appreciate a good game of football

ChiBlueBoy

October 16th, 2013 at 6:20 PM ^

I appreciate, and agree with, your thoughts completely. I haven't posted anything on here since Saturday, as what is there to add, really? More vitriol isn't helpful. Right now, I can see both sides of the debate on keeping AB. Was his play-calling predictable? Yes. But we also should have won that game and it took more than one fluke play for us not to. No one on here was complaining about him after ND. I think we all need to chill out, keep calm heads (as the coaches seem to be doing), realize it's only one week and it's a GAME, and realize that all of the goals of the team are still out there. If Al can learn from his experiences, we'll know by the end of the season and I'm sure Hoke reassesses everything every year.

And just to show that I'm not just some pansy-ass, I will include gratuitous profanity, because I'm a fucking fuck who's a fat fuck and doesn't know his fucking ass from his fucking face.

/mlived