Meta: A Call For Reason Re: How we Discuss the State of Affairs
And I say that as someone who has been criticizing Borges's decisions...Space Coyote, I'm always glad to read what you post. I hope you keep it up.
One minor note: Did you mean "soup box" or "soap box"? I've only ever heard "soap box."
If Gibbons kicks that field goal then the fury would certainly be blunted.
The changes in the board are also reflective of a lack of capacity (or will) on Brian's part to put in place an effective system of moderation. It's turned into the wild west and the blog reads like the Haloscan era all too often (and like MLive at it's worst during games).
You're not an apologist if you have an argument; just a person with an opinion.
I see a lot of people blaming the lack of user moderation, and while I think that could help, a moderation system is only as good as the users who moderate it.
Not sure how much it would help with the current situation as it's a sizeable portion of people and would maybe result in a petty upvote/downvote battle between the two sides. That said, there has been a palpable decline in civility since the moderation system went away. Where the handful of the more abrasive posters would just get downvoted and hidden, they now devolve into flame wars. Brian himself has noticed this and tried to recover some civility in the great banhammerpalooza of 2013.
He only banned abrasive guys who disagree with him, giving free reign and a whole lot of courage to the abrasive ones who parrot him. They become emboldened without anyone calling them out as a check and balance. Now you have reasonable guys like Space Coyote having to take shots from the abrasive element with a lot less to back him up.
Anyone old school enough to remember the Haloscan Era can see the trending. The power of the neg was to enable novel ideas to be rewarded or rejected. If you were a jackass you just got negged and that was it .
Now it's ennui and sarcasm from too many posters not adding to the analysis but complaining because they are enabled and with no potential judgment.
You guys have pretty much nailed it.
You're right to a degree, but I think the old moderation system—the one with no limits on up or down votes and where negs affected people's point totals—was pretty effective at discouraging the really lousy posters from staying around very long. It worked much better than the more recent system. The current state of the board is abysmal.
But I think the point stands that at this point, the mob is on the side of RAGE.
I think it's unfair to blame this board for the lousy stream of postings; it's universal to the internet, and it is instead the rare place that muzzles that tendency of the internet that stands out.
This place has a reputation for being like that, and while it is currently regressing, it is still better than the average internet cesspool.
But it has gotten challenging, yes.
Impressive position to be in; but honestly, that's arguable. However, there are still plenty of thoughtful, insightful contributors, so I am still weeding through to find those.
The funny and insightful stuff used to outweigh the douchebagery that floods the board on a regular basis now. Bummer.
Particularly amusing due to your gender and avatar,picture of a woman from the 20's drinking a beer, talking about douchebaggery. And it is absolutely spot on.
You're right that it's only as good as the users, but it really does make a distinct difference. Being able to "mute" the worst offenders and trolls helps keep the conversations in here from delving into the pit that it's been in since the mod system went away.
Is there an update on it coming back? I thought Brian said he was going to work on it during the first bye week, but we didn't hear anything about it after that. I hope he's able to figure something out before the November games since they have a ton of potential to spur reactions like we've seen after last Saturday.
I haven't been on here much the last few days because of how people act, so this point may have been reiterated a lot, but it's the first I've seen of it and I completely agree. It was something that I was thinking about earlier today. Had Gibbons made 1 of his 3 missed FGs, life moves on and people continue to act concerned but ok since we would have started out 6-0.
I understand the frustration of a loss in a game that should have been won and the need to find a reason for the loss so we can fix it. However, it's just not that simple. We turned the ball over 3 times and missed 3 potentially-game-winning FGs. What is a coordinator supposed to do with that? Your running game is non-existant and your QB throws picks directly at defenders. Tell me, which is worse: 3 runs and a punt or a pick that is returned to your own redzone? Now, if you want to blame him for not preparing players, fine, but he doesn't have a whole lot of safe options when he's calling plays. He can't run veer or inverted veer on every down.
As for preparation, you prepare for what you want to do to start the season and you alter your gameplan as the season progresses. It's hard to do that when you only have 3 practices during the week and you have a game on Saturday. So, you make major changes in bye weeks. I don't expect to see any major changes this week, but I think we will see a very different team against MSU. Don't expect to run DG a lot either as MSU will try to hurt him just like they tried to hurt Denard. I just hope that people don't melt down after this weekend when Borges "refuses to change anything".
I think people are really advocating for short throws to Gallon and Funchess on the outside. When the corners start to creep in then unleash the dragon.
After this goes on for a little bit and defenders start to come out of the box then Manball to your heart's content (I'm speaking to Borges who will definitely not read this but who cares).
It is really frustrating to see runs get stuffed so many times when, at least the way the writers of this blog frame it, there are some relatively minor changes that don't require that much practice time to implement. If there are 8-10 guys in the box and you are planning to run check to a short pass and see what happens.
I will agree with the OP that name calling and trying to stifle discussion are lame but again it is pretty discouraging to see similar things happening on the offense as happened on the defense in the previous regime. Couple this with Ohio State succeeding in a pretty horrid conference that we really should be at the top of but are not has led to tensions boiling over.
Oh yeah and when the coaching staff appears not to hear or ignore perfectly valid criticisms than that also leads to heated discussions.
Anyway, hopefully discourse is more civil but there seem to be very valid reasons to be concerned with the direction of the offense.
I think if we play the same game and the only difference is we make an overtime field goal to win it, there would still be much gnashing of teeth and rending of garments from the fanbase, though perhaps not at the same volume or with the same level of vitriole.
At some point in the season the fanbase has to come to grips with reality and after seeing the game that was coached/played on Saturday against PSU, I think a lot of people moved on from being able to rationalize the previous sub-par performances as anomalies or mis-assessments of the quality of the opponent, let down games, etc.
W or L, last Saturday confirmed that there are some very fundamental issues in player development, game-planning, ability to adjust/respond in-game, execution, scheme, strategy, clock management and on-the-field coaching that quite simply, are not being addressed......more importanly, that don't seem like they will be addressed based on the outward responses from the staff.
I think you just have a case where everyone started the season with hopes somewhere on a spectrum between 8-4 and undefeated, where each week since the beginning of the season that range has been adjusted downward, with the PSU game being a clear indicator that the regression is justified. I also think that post-PSU you now have people adjusting their point on that spectrum way down based on the continued poor results.
It would be one thing if the staff was saying, 'we have issues, we are trying to make chnages to address them,' but they really aren't. Not seeing or adjusting to 8-9 players in the box by adding in a screen/dink pass to a slot receiver is mind bogglingly stupid. Six games in and still.......? If we run 27 run plays into the line against MSU....we will have possibly -27 yards to show for it.
Had Gibbons hit that FG in regulation, we are up 10 with under a minute left. Even if that last drive still happens, it doesn't mean much because it is deemed trash time.
Had the FG in the first OT period not been blocked, people are happy with the win, are still concerned, but no one is calling for anyone's head.
Had he made the FG in in the third OT, some might question Borges but no one is questioning whether they need to tone their fanhood down.
Really, though, to say that Borges hasn't adapted in the game is flatout wrong. Gardner had about as many carries as Fitz in the game. Fitz had 5 carries in OT and 7 on that second to last drive which cut 5:45 off the clock and took away all of PSU's Timeouts. The reason we don't score on that drive is due to the Delay of Game, which isn't on Borges at all. Anyway, That means Fitz had 15 carries on the 13 drives up to that point. Devin Gardner actually had more rushes (19) in those 13 drives than Fitz. If you want to see why Fitz even had that many rushes, checkout Space Coyote's breakdown of OT. Criticize his gameplanning maybe, but in-game adjustments and reacting to what the defense gives him is Borges' strong suit; he just can't do that without some information from the defense first.
I agree there may be issues with player development. I'm still not sure if what we are seeing is due to freshmen and walk-ons on the line or an issue with coaching. Same thing with execution. Let me ask you this, though.
The bottom line is that people want a scapegoat to hold responsible for the loss. Had no more than 5 things (3 passes on final drive or 3 missed field goals) that were completely out of Borges' control gone wrong on PSU's final drive and in OT, we win that game and no one looks for a scapegoat.
I 100% agree with this. Borges deserves a lot of heat for decisions made on saturday, but people melting down after one loss is just absurd, especially when half the people provide no reasons except borges fucking sucks, fire his ass, michigan sucks, program is doomed.
Exactly. It's ignorant to think the Borges issue is just about the PSU loss. This is the most recent example. Anyone who has read Brian this week or listened to the podcast understands.
Our OLine is plenty talented and really not that young - I'm sure a majority of D1 programs would gladly trade OL talent with Michigan. It's all about coaching and it's atrocious.
A lot of people continue to ignore this point in their attempt to frame the issue as people overrecating after just 1 game. It's a symptomatic issue that has been getting worse. And I really wish people would stop saying if we had won, there would be no complaints. I'm pretty sure the ire was raised rather high after Akron and UConn.
The argument against Borges was/is that he would cost us games with his playcalling. He's had several games now where he nearly did so against far overmatched teams. And now it's no longer becoming an issue of "nearly" doing so.
but I think you have it 100% backward. The people that are calling for Borges to be fired 1) have a multitude of reasons as to why and 2) are not basing it on this one loss. They are factoring it on video evidence as well as the fact that he has had terrible game plans far more often than he has had good ones.
I would suggest that it is those who think he should stay that don't seem to have any good reasons other than "it's one game, give the guy a break" when we all know that this hasn't been about the 1 PSU loss, it has been building since the start of last year.
I consider myself to be a fairly reasonable person and during debates such as this I tend to listen to all available information before deciding where I fall. I even stayed off the internet until Tuesday so I wouldn't let my emotions take precedence over logic.
After taking that time and examining all available evidence (again, not from this one game, but from the past two seasons) I just fall on the side of those who want AB gone. Not because he is a bad person, not because he failed ONCE, but because I don't see him being able to field a team that can consistently come up with gameplans that will beat teams of equal or better talent.
AB wants to win, but he wants to do it "his way" and would rather lose "his way" than win by any other means. There aren't any prizes, trophies or championships handed out for losing with your pride in tact. His unwillingness to adapt has cost us plenty of games we could have won and almost lost us games that would have made us the laughing stock of college football.
What solidified my opinion that Borges needed to go was his arogant and condecending tone in his press conference. He seemed angry that anyone would ever dare question what he was doing and deflected (much like those who are in support of him now) everything toward the players and their lack of execution.
I know the players need to perform, but he is the OC. He calls the plays and is in charge of developing the talent (indirectly in some cases, but directly for the QB's).With the myriad reasons why people believe he should be fired (all the ones you are choosing to ignore apparently) why don't you suggest some reason why he should stay other than the whole lack of talent and execution arguments of which one is completely on his shoulders and the other is a complete smoke screen. We have the talent and the staff has just proven not to be able to develop it.
Anyway, I'm sick of this circular argument so that will be the last I say on the topic, but the one thing I will end with is this: The OP (who I do repsect as a poster who has knowledge of the game) is the latest in a long line of posters who suggests when people on the board disagree with them that there is a "mob mentality" or "group think" going on on this board. That, to me, seems more childish than anything else that has gone on here this week.
When people disagree with you sometimes it has nothing to do with "group think" or "mob mentality" sometimes people just disagree and when you are in the minority it will feel like people are piling on because more people disagree with you than agree. That's a fact of life, nothing to do with a mob mentality. I get it. I was on the side of keeping RR one more year, I know what it's like, but there isn't any use complaining about people not supporintg your argument. Make it the best you can and if people still aren't convinced, move on.
I don't care if people disagree with me. I don't care if the vast majority are on one side of a topic or not. That's fine. But not listening to the other side is stupid. I'm not complaining that people aren't agreeing with me, all I'm asking is to actually be able to discuss it, which I think most people are in agreement with.
I didn't say "group think" because people may honestly think that. I used "herd mentality" because when someone disagrees there is a tendancy to team up on people an essentially call them stupid just for having a different opinion.
So yeah, I think you completely missed the point of the post if you think what I'm asking for is childish.
When people disagree with you sometimes it has nothing to do with "group think" or "mob mentality" sometimes people just disagree and when you are in the minority it will feel like people are piling on because more people disagree with you than agree.
You're probably right on some level. At the same time, though, there is also a mob mentality that shines pretty brightly at times. That tends to be when there is unbridled criticism, and then someone comes on whose criticism isn't as strong as people think it should be - and then that person is branded a "defender" of the subject of criticism. "Guys, I think Borges is doing a bad job too, but here is a thing that isn't his fault" gets turned around so that when you say a thing like that, you're a "defender."
The other thing that's annoying (and very related) is how many people took Coyote's post to be a defense of Borges and started jumping up and going "no way man, Borges is terrible!" The OP had nothing to do with Borges. It was about the board atmosphere. But mention the word "Borges" without any scathing criticism, and somehow people felt the need to refute the lack of criticism. The point was very badly missed by a lot of people who are too laser-focused on Al Borges.
I read Coyote's stuff religiously here and on Twitter and I can safely say that he should be considered one of the most respectable people on this Board. He provides tons of information and does so in a pretty darn unbiased way. That people flipped out on him was not only unfair but also a testiment to their stupidity. This Board has definitely gone downhill and I am like JoeyB x2 these days, avoiding most threads like the plague.
I caution everyone thinking that user moderation is going to be the end-all cure to the current issues. The mob mentality is just as strong and instead of simply resulting in people harassing posters with unpopular opinions it will couple that with huge neg bombs and point loss. While that may be very effective in hammering trolls, it also has the potential of quieting new users with few points. In all scenarios, certain people just need to stop being assholes. Treat posters like they are real people you run into on the street.
My only question to you re: Borges is this...in his 17 yrs as a OC/QB coach he has only had One career 60% thrower and that was a Senior Jason Campbell...watching Devin and even Denard for two years it is fairly obvious they have gotten worse.
At this point while we all know the OL is well below average and such but why continue the path he is going down, how many times must Devin be forced to make a 3rd and 13...Now I have no doubt Hoke wants to Manball it up but man it just feels like AL could be a little better.
I've never been an AL guy and him leaving Auburn with the 97th Offense in 2007 is scary, at what point then can people really start to question him at this point in his career?
People can start questioning him 3 years ago. Before that. I have no problem with people questioning him. I have a problem with people that have just provided insults and have prevented discussion with those insults.
I came and stayed at MgoBlog for the logical and unique approach to our team. It was a smart board, and still for the most part is, but wow, its gotten childish lately. Lets reign this behaviour in, cause right now, we are no better than other sites.
Borges is not the point here. Borges is this post's MacGuffin; the post is about not setting up straw men, being halfway constructive in criticism, and trying to keep it civil and not MLive-y.
Also, your question about "when is it OK to question him" is exactly the sort of straw man Coyote is trying to remove. The choice is not between "flame away" and "sacred cow."
Borges has had four seasons with a 60% passer in 17 years. Considering the offense he runs and the YPA he gets, that's not too bad.
But he does deserve to be questioned for his play-calling, particularly in the 2nd and 4th OTs, when we had the ball first.
Aren't West Coast offenses usually high-completion-percentage offenses? Borges seems to be more of a bomber in the Al Davis mold.
His last year at SDSU, with Hoke, they were fourth in the country in yards per completion, behind only the three option teams (Navy, Air Force, Ga Tech) that never throw. Cam Newton and Auburn were the only team that was even close.
He loves intermediate to deep routes; I suspect he'd like to be getting the ball downfield more now but he's got QB-accuracy and pass-protection problems that make that hard.
I don't know if Borges is the guy for us in the long run or not, but that has very little to do with the subject matter of this post.
For what it's worth, I mostly just read here, but I think you're an exceptional member of the blog and I lean on you for understanding of the game just as much as I lean on the guys employed here. I also fully agree with you on the points you make here.
Personal attacks on the coaches and their weight is completely pointless and immature and that sort of attitude completely detracts from my experience on this site. I have no problems with criticism of coaching style and things to do with the game, but it shouldn't be all that hard for people to maturely make their point.
I second the praise for Space Coyote. You've become my favorite voice on this blog, staff or reader. Thanks for your contributions, especially your most recent ones.
I probably share some in the problem - trying to stem the vitriol became simply overwhelming after Sunday evening or so, even though in relative terms it hasn't be quite as bad as it was initially.Relative terms. I probably said "Hell with it" before I should have and I apologize to people for that. It's still bad and I sent someoneone to Bolivia for their sniping not three hours ago.
If you do have suggestions, please post them in the Mod Sticky or find me on Twitter. As for the Indiana game, I will try to take some of the learnings from this experience and roll them into that postgame if needed.
I do not envy that job. I do not put the blame on mods or anyone else, there is just too much happening here. That's why it's a call to others on this board. You and other mods and Brian and Seth can only do so much. The rest has to come from us.
For themselves and the board and realize it shouldn't take a mod to tell you not to be an ass.
It does suck. But I still blame Justin and LSA and even BiSB still for the decline in the Board. They get paid pretty good money to keep everyone in line.
Here are the #'s for AL's QB's.....
He's not talking about what you're doing. You're at least providing data and reasons why Borges might be a bad fit or need to go. He's talking about the people who post just to call Borges a "Fat arrogant fuck."
That is what I come here for, and now that you have published the data I ask if anyone sees any great NFL or college passing QB's in that group......So, looking at the names on this list, does anyone else think Al has not had a ton of QB passing talent to work with? The only name QB on the list as a passer is McNown to me.....
I have felt the same way all week. It almost seems like some are almost gleeful to point out they were right all along about Borges. I used to be a Borges apologist, the last game probably pushed me over to the other side. Still, I think the lack of objectivity the last week is disappointing. I worry about how we look to recruits (who we know do occasionally surf through). I worry about the fans at the stadium this Saturday. Will we be one of those fanbases that boos our own team because things aren't going our way? I really hope not.
Let's not forget a sizable part of the RR debacle was rancor among the fanbase. Losing certainly doesn't help, but the Michigan community turned on that man the second he came to town. I don't want to be a ND that spends 20 years in mediocrity because we don't have the patience to let coaches fix their issues and install their system, instead running them off every 3-4 years because we have delusional expectations.
So... let's analyze what happened last week, let's talk about it, but at the end of the day, let's cowboy the fuck up and support our team as they work through a rough patch.
We have definitely booed Michigan teams at The Big House. Halftime against Wisconsin in 2008 comes to mind. And people also booed Brady Hoke at the end of the first halfs in 2011 for not attempting to use the last possesion of the half to generate points. And I mean come on, the student section chanted "Rich Rodriguez!" for a solid two minutes for beating Western Michigan in his second year opener. All he had to do was win. We don't need to excuse away failure, it was what it was.
I fully recognize that MIchigan fans have and will probably again boo their own team. I've done so (Navarre) on a couple occasions in my younger years. It doesn't make it any less stupid, classless, or counter productive. As if the coaches and players would care more or try harder if you only reminded them that their performance displeases you.
We have a big time 2015 recruit in this weekend, from Denmark no less, probably others. How do you think Michigan looks when we're booing Saturday?
Oh I'm on the side of not booing. I'm just reacting to your wish that we not be the fair weather fan base that we've shown ourselves to be over the last decade with a couple of examples.
in defiance to the Freep story released days earlier. This board was so pissed at the Freep and solidly behind the team and the coaching staff for that game.
I will never Boo the players. The coaches are a different story. If the same bs happens this weekend you can bet you will hear boos, and with good reason. If we can't move the ball on the worst defense in the B1G, we are FUCKED.
How the hell do you make the distinction? more importantly how do players and recruits? They just hear booing. A lot of recruits probably won't even know why since they probably didn't watch all our games. They'll just think we're dicks, and with good reason.
Honestly, what do you hope to accomplish besides making yourself feel better? Do you really think the coaches will change what they're doing? Do you think they will somehow try harder, as if they aren't already totally invested in winning?
the players know FULL WELL that the coaches didn't execute last Saturday. Michigan dominated the 2nd half until the play calling halted our momentum (on the PSU 27 yard line).
Two consecutive Fitz runs for NO GAIN will bring a cascade of boo's ... and EVERYONE will know where the boo's are aimed.
I respectfully disagree. The players and coaches are a lot closer to each other than either are to the fans. It's even more so in rough times, players and coaches know it's the guys in the lockeroom that matter and that need to stick together, not about what the fans are saying. Lockerooms where players are blaming the coaches are the exception and the sign of extreme disfunction (see: USC and Kiffen). You boo one, you are booing the other as well in their eyes.
Fantastic post. I'm not sure Borges is the answer and I think some honest, frank questions can be asked about how effective his scheme/adjustments have been. That being said insulting his weight, insinuating that he doesn't care about his job/winning, or any of the such vitrol that has been spouted since Saturday is unnecessary. You'll almost never see me post in game threads or immediately after losses because I know I can't maintain perspective in the heat of the moment. I'd suggest many, many posters here do the same.
I'm all right with people having melt downs on SATURDAY, but this week at MGoBlog has been pretty depressing. Why can't we just have an Al Borges Open Thread and a Michigan Offense Open Thread. Every other post is the same stuff written by another person explaining the same thing that has been covered at least 100 times.
Let's move on and start discussing the positive parts of being a Michigan fan.
Agreed. I've been avoiding the blog this week for that reason.
that game I would still feel the way I do know. The offensive coordinator has and will cost Michigan wins going forward, and that's hard to stomach, but Mule's gonna mule.
Reading this blog I keep thinking I'm in the minority for not wanting to fire the OC immediately, but then I realize this place is a gigantic echo chamber. I want to see, just once, Ace, Seth or BiSB or any mod for that matter actually disagree with Brian on something substantive. Or point me to when it happened, because I haven't seen it.
Putting aside for the moment that we have no idea what is out there for other OCs who would actually want to work here (expecially when you just fired the guy who was recruiting like a boss and just lost a 4OT game) and we're sitting at 5-1 with a game against Indiana coming up, this is the same OC who was flexible enough to run a spread for 2 years that was clearly out of his comfort zone, so now is stuck in the first year of trying to implement something like his system. Yes, the OL has many issues, obviously, starting with the fact that we have 3 first-time starters there. I don't know how to fix that mid-season, but I do know that unlike RichRod's teams on defense, we have an army of awesome and talented recruits coming in who will shore up the line.
Borges lost 1 game in which we had a 33 yard field goal from the dead center of the field to win it. How about we all relax a bit? We all know he doesn't want to run the spread, but I'll bet anything Borges scores more points against OSU than RichRod did his last year.
All of the above is exactly why you're (OP's) post reviewing the plays from the game in detail quarter by quarter was so helpful - we have more than one actually informed opinion on the play calls.
Echo chamber is one way of putting it, but when you control the content and the lens through which it is seen through, it becomes a cult of personality. Which, yes, the blog isn't technically a public space, and we're all guests here, et cetera. These are the pitfalls of confirmation bias and the front page contributors here are not immune - which is why I enjoy the Space Coyote's posts as they routinely provide an alternate and equally if not more plausible view of things.
If you listened to the podcast, you would get the impression that the OC is a complete moron. I wonder how many programs are banging on the doors of bloggers to come save their teams from the veteran coaches.
MGoBlog has become so popular because it's a place with well thought out and reasoned analysis. I thought Borges was a moron on Saturday night well before the podcast.
Maybe Brian and Ace know what they're talking about? Sometimes things are so obvious that the masses are right.
The masses were also pretty certain Hoke was a terrible hire so I'd be careful about that.
Also, my point is that it's not actually "the masses" it only sounds that way because this is a blog full of sheep.
Interesting that you fall into the trap you point out for others. It is not the masses, only a relatively loud voices. Yet, you say this blog is full of sheep. The "sheep" that you reference may be loud and show up a fair amount, but that doesn't mean this blog is full of them.
the "sheep" comment is not really correct. The blog is not full of sheep generally (although Brian's opinion is generally taken as gospel, which was the point there), but the people who are prone to overreact and all agree are the ones who post in times of woe and want such as these. People are looking for answers, and Brian sells the only blog that's got em (sort of).
As far as current mods go, I don't think either of us is pushing Brian's opinion more than any thoughtful agreement would allow. I guess you could say that LSA and I don't critisize him, but I'd be pretty surprised to see more than one or two critisizism posts if you click on either account.
how you see fit, but to me the apologists just sound like Baghdad Bob. That game was so ridiculous I wasn't sure who I was rooting for at the end of game. I was so pissed at whatever it was the mule we have for an offensive coordinator was trying to do that I was almost relieved that PSU won. Competence won out over fucking muleball, as it should.
What kind of burrito?
Keeping with the lean meat after the burger I had for lunch. Yup, eating healthy.
While I agree with on the name calling I do have to point out that the reason the intensity level racheted back up today was concurrent with his press release where Al basically "doubled down" on what appears to the vast majority of the board to be a deeply flawed strategy. I know for me personally I was miffed about the game on Saturday (and probably only just miffed) until Borges basically blamed the players for not properly executing his gameplan instead of admitting the gameplan itself was horrible.
In business when I have always been taught to deliver good news anytime but to deliver bad news with a plan. Al's "plan", so it seems, is to continue on the same path we are on now but with different players. Which is the height of arrogance IMO given what an impossible position he put those players in most of Saturday.
Fire Borges. Am I allowed to say that or is that being uncivil?
Not that I'm any kind of judge of posting ettiquite, but you at least gave a reason. I think that's all people are asking for.
The reason I'm not as afraid to pull the trigger now as most is simply because I refuse to believe things could get much worse. Hell, I'd be happier letting Devin call the plays (at least then we'd eliminate the delay of game penalties) than Borges right now.
After 1 1/2 years of "it can't get worse" mentality as the OL goes from bad to worse, I would think people would have learned to stop and consider the unintended consequences of every change.
that is PRECISELY why Borges needs to go. It is his job to know our strengths and weaknesses, and it is VERY clear that we cannot run against an 8 man in the box defense. Yet that is what he called ... time after time. There is tons of visual evidence - how can Devin not be allowed to audible when he sees this? It's not like PSU was hiding their strategy.
Plain and simple ... Borges is NOT doing his job to make this team successful.
You're missing the point though. We fans tend to see only one snippet of the whole picture and when things aren't going well, we immediately what change, sometimes drastic change, without fully comprehending the impacts of the changes. Borges may well deserve to be fired, but it won't be without negative consequences and there's absolutely no guarantee the next guy will be do any better given the constraints of the team right now. Things absolutely need to get fixed, but I seriously don't think fans are privy to all the information they need to know the best way to make those changes. "Fire Borges" just seems like the most obvious one from the stands or tv screens.
Fair, but people also heard a lot of what they wanted to hear, things that already supported what they'd already decided about Borges.
"Because the power game wasn’t as good, you can’t just say, “We’re not going to do it anymore." was the first thing people took issue with. But he followed up the next sentence with "You still have to sprinkle it in. What we did in the second half was we threw the ball more, created a few big plays, and did a pretty good job." That's perfectly reasonable. Even air raid teams don't totally not run. You can criticize when we ran and how much we ran, but what he said is totally reasonable and consistent with 99% of coaches out there.
People had a problem with the bubble screen thing, which, fair enough. Honestly, I did too. Then again, he's not the first coach to bristle a little when reporters tell them how to do their jobs.
None of it is an excuse to fly off the handle like some people have.
Because you're better than that, but if prior to the Borges press conference you were only "miffed" I'd hate to see you mad.
Guilty as charged. More than miffed.
But in my defense you will notice the comments definitely spike in their intensity after I saw his press conference. And I never called him names - I just think he's horrible at his job and for reasons I cant begin to fathom, he seems to think he's doing great.
And sadly, so does his boss it seems.
Once social organizations reach a state of static equilibrium, entropy begins to occur. The degradation of the system unit of entire system is then only a function of time. This unintended process occurs until the system is thrown out of its static state with new inputs or process changes, or the system fails. To challenge the onslaught of entropy, system thinkers are required to continuously expand their knowledge of the scope and complexity of their system. Once they can identify a way to for the component or process to evolve, the risk of entropy is lessened. After new actions are taken or inputs are changed, the process to avoid system decline due to entropy begins again. Once growth has stopped, the decline of the system is inevitable.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
I haven't and will not resort to name calling. My message has been simple and what I think to be fair and to the point.
And this blog covers the winningest program in college football. And for some time now, this program has not performed up to its historical record.
And I believe in truth-telling. And I think that honest appraisal no matter how debilitating the manner in which it is conveyed expresses how we think and live, even if we dislike the manner in which it is offered. It is what it is.
I have followed this team my entire life. I didn't attend the school but I believe in its principles. And there is no question that this is one arrogant, entitled fan base. It is used to winning. It is used to great achievement.
But it also knows when it's being lied to. And that is the case in connection with the way this offense is being run. And the evidence is self-evident. We don't need an expert to point the bs out. We can see it for ourselves. And it's not on the players, unless you believe that they ought to be able to do what many pro football players are incapable of doing.
I don't think this is true.
Football is certainly a results-based business. So I suppose if an offense underperforms, the coordinator is to be blamed. But the problem with your argument is that nothing is self-evident.
I look at this line and think that every coordinator on earth would struggle with it. To confuse matters further, the offense has look good in spurts, as evidenced by our being in position to win @PSU despite spotting them the ball at the 14- and 20- yard lines in the 1st half.
If that sounds like an apologia, it really isn't. If we fire Borges, I wouldn't bat an eye. "No man is more important than the team". But this is the place we come to talk about stuff. This is why I've been spazzing out for weeks about how this line is the worst ever. To me, it seems self-evident. Apparently, it isn't. More to the point, people keep insisting that there is an offense to be had that does not depend on blocking people. As much as id like to see that offense - out of sheer curiosity - I'd hate to see it at Michigan, because I couldn't imagine it being able to win games.
I've been trying to discuss why we suck, in detail, and asking if Borges should be fired and if that will fix anything. That's all. But I've been attacked personally or had my thoughts dismissed as those of an apologists. I'm not sensitive enough for it to really matter, and I only care about the opinion of 5-7 guys on here w/r/t football theory, but I do think its bad form for the board.
Said what I have felt. I've read most every word that gets posted on the blog for a while but wading through all of the "fuck this" comments has been wearing.
I always thought preachers stood on soap boxes.
I do not. Dare to be different!
Or I just suck as speling
Yes..Mrs. Grass is one of my favorites.
Well, now nothing makes sense...
Placing the blame on one individual, player or coach, is always impossible. A missed field goal, a nearly tipped/intercepted pass, a near first down spot (I think they still got the review wrong), a miss thrown pass, a missed tackle, miss block, a bad play call, etc all contributed to the loss. We simply need to take this as a learning experience and grow from it. Also, I agree about a level of maturity on the board. I avoided reading the blog for days after the loss so I didnt have to hear all the negativity/profanity. Football is a game, not life or death. Enjoy it, root on your team, root for the health/saftey of everyone, quietly sulk for a few hours after a loss and appreciate a good game of football
I appreciate, and agree with, your thoughts completely. I haven't posted anything on here since Saturday, as what is there to add, really? More vitriol isn't helpful. Right now, I can see both sides of the debate on keeping AB. Was his play-calling predictable? Yes. But we also should have won that game and it took more than one fluke play for us not to. No one on here was complaining about him after ND. I think we all need to chill out, keep calm heads (as the coaches seem to be doing), realize it's only one week and it's a GAME, and realize that all of the goals of the team are still out there. If Al can learn from his experiences, we'll know by the end of the season and I'm sure Hoke reassesses everything every year.
And just to show that I'm not just some pansy-ass, I will include gratuitous profanity, because I'm a fucking fuck who's a fat fuck and doesn't know his fucking ass from his fucking face.
Now that's what we need on this board.
You may be a fat fuck. I've never seen you. But I've never seen you say anything that would lead me to believe you're a fucking fuck. And I've lived in Boston, so I've known some fucking fucks.
I mean, I'm sure he's not a currently fucking fuck, but suggesting he's a fuck that's never fucked (not that there's anything fucking wrong with that) is pretty fucking fucked up, don't you think?
What do you think I am, some sort of fucking rude-ass fucking hogfucker?
What the fuck do you know about that fucking fuck? The only thing he fucks is his own fucking ass. Meow.
Great post. I completely agree; I love well-founded criticism, but there has been far too much pure hatred.
You are a knowledgable poster--even for a coach--and I value your posts and hope you keep them up.
There are some valid criticisms of Borges--the biggest in my mind is his handling of the 2nd and 4th OTs--but there is far too much of personal insults. We're not MSU, fergodsakes.
and it's true. Some of the stuff here has been flat-out embarrassing, and made me reconsider continuing.
I'm not sure what measures you can use to mediate some of the vitriol excpet to let it pass. There are enough people here who eventually take things down a notch and let rational discussion emerge from the noise. Not having downvotes may actually allow for the "other side" to be aired, assuming it exists. One reason why chaos mitigation didn't exist post not so Happy Valley, is that Brian et al. are marching in lock step with many of us who share his view. It is difficult to be hard on someone who agrees with oyou.
In spite of watching an awful lot of football, I am not terribly knowledgable as to the X's and O;s. But I know enough about the game to realize that if something isn't working, like it wasn't against Penn State and Akron and Uconn, and against Ohio in the second half last year, that there is a problem. It was stunningly obvious that Toussaint was totally and completely ineffective at Penn State and that plan B was needed. That we have a plan B and it wasn't used, is where the problem starts.
My concern is more for the IU game Saturday than any aftermath of last week's game. There has been an undercurrent about Borges that has been ready to erupt since last year;s Ohio game. If it's Fitz in a manball cloud of dust going nowhere next Saturday, and Borges has nothing up his sleeve to attempt to right the ship, it is going to get ugly quickly.
Also.....despite a damn near perfect look, is Uncle Fester out of the question? I mean he was a solid character on the Addams Family and I feel like that is more a positive than a negative.
Thanks SC. I think we've had some civil (and for me anyway, enlightening) conversations here, so hopefully you do to.
But one caveat - sometimes the "this place is an echo chamber and woe is me for disagreeing with the herd" can be its own straw man. This is definitely not you, far from it, but some posters try to use the armor of "everybody's gonna hate me for saying this..." to avoid engaging the legitimate points within the herd.
Let's be civil on both sides, and not begrudge Borges his donuts (just his zone stretches) ;)
I just want to know why he is so against throwing the quick screen to the WR.
I feel like we did that even when we were playing Lloyd ball.
This comment shows the echo chamber effect. "Lloydball", a term coined on this site, is used as if that is a debate-ender. As if no other comment is necessary. Its damning evidence.
But what is wrong with Lloydball? It won the only NC any of us have seen. It won 74% of the games it played.
This sort of criticism is akin to the people who said things like, "the spread can't win in the B1G", despite a lot of evidence to the contrary. It offers nothing. But we've heard it before. Even from people who's opinion we respect. So it must be OK.
Sorry for calling this particular comment out. I have no I'll will towards the poster. Its just tiring.
The tendency is to see offense or defense divorced from the game situation. SC's posts on his site do a good job of looking at Borges' playcalls in the 4th quarter and OT in the context of the game rather than just looking at the stat line at the end of the game.
Lloydball worked in '97 because he had a great defense and the best way to win was to play to the strengths of the offense, keep things simple and don't take unnecessary risks. Not too different than this team, minus a Woodson and a more mature team in general. Lloyd probably stuck with that strategy too long, but it certainly worked well in '97 and for most of his time here.
Arguably, when Borges needs to open up the offense, at times he has shown the ability to do that. Many of his calls can be questioned, and I for one think he's WAY too conservative on first and second down, particularly early in games. But like him or not, it isn't fair to criticize this offense without looking at the overall strengths of the team, the opponent, the tools at his disposal and game situation.
I called the place an echo chamber so I assume you're talking to me, but I have no inclination to set up any straw mans (your "woe is me" comment is more a straw man than anything I said).
My point was that you wouldn't know anyone had other opinions because everyone here echoes Brian's posts to a fault so it's great to have an informed opinion on play calls and such. As I am no guru, I appreciate Space Coyote's posts. For my own 2 cents, it would seem to me that at 5-1 and mid-season without anyone plausible to step in and call plays may not be the best time for a coordinator change.
Eh you're the one who said echo chamber on this thread but honestly everyone here has been pretty good. So I'm sorry if it came off as targeted at you.
I'm mostly recalling some past meltdowns where somebody would go off on a ridiculous rant and their defense to the blowback was "this is just an echo chamber and the only reason you could disagree with me is because you're all over Brian/Borges/Hoke/RichRod's junk".
Point is, a lot of the time "I know I'll get negged for saying this" is a preface for something really objectively ridiculous.
And I should make clear that I'm really appreciative of SC for posting this. Space Coyote is a great contrarian (though he's really not that contrarian, all things considered).
But there's another breed of contrarian, some of whom got banned in the banapalooza a few weeks ago, who just disagree for the sake of disagreeing, do so in a nasty manner, and think that disagreeing with Brian and calling everyone "sheep" for enjoying the content of the site is inherently virtuous.
So guys and gals: don't be nasty to those who disagree with you, whether you're with the mob or against it.
I think we can all agree with your last sentence. And perhaps I was too sensitive in thinking your comment was directed at me.
To be clear also, I didn't call everyone sheep for enjoying the content of the site (and my point could have been better stated). I actually think there are some of us who read this site regularly and think that while Borges is probably not the best, he is definitely not the worst OC out there, and firing him mid-season makes no sense, so it isn't full of sheep.
Having said that, this place does sound like an echo chamber in times of stress (new coach, 4OT loss, etc.) because everyone (A) thinks generally what Brian thinks because he watches the games more closely than anyone save SC and (B) even those who disagree don't bother to post because "let's let cooler heads prevail" can only be said so many ways. I agree with Brian on 90% of issues (although I can't get as worked up about ads in the stadium) and I trust his judgement for obvious reasons when evaluating players (namely that I don't know sh*t).
The point we call all agree on is it's nice to have SC providing another informed perspective on the games, players and coaches.
You're not reading carefully enough, then. I'm not the only one who has offered contrasting opinions, but the language you've used in this thread has called me a "sheep," presumably meaning you are the only one thinking for yourself.
Which in itself would suggest that you are not a voice of "reason."
Now, I'm probably wrong about this, but I can only go by what you've written. Perhaps you could clarify a less condescending position?
I think I did that in the post above. Could have been stated better
I decided not to post anything here over the weekend for fear of my emotions getting in the way of my brain. I didn't spend much time reading this blog during that time because I knew that it would be ugly. If I were Brian, I would consider closing the blog for the weekend after UM loses.
Many comments refer to how classy and intellectual this blog is, while in reality, that is only true about the staff and maybe 20% of the posters. The rest of the posters appear more intent on venting their anger, putting down other posters or trying to be funny.
I try to avoid the bitching topics and skip over the post that don't offer any thoughtful opinions. It is a public forum and I don't have much hope for it ever being what some of us would like it to be, a place for us Michigan fans to discuss and debate our favorite team in a civil manner.
I can understand your frustrations with the way people are venting their own, however, this is what fan(atics) do and this is a forum for fanatics. I am not sure what else you were expecting.We are all fans of one of the most storied programs in all of college athletics, and for the majority of us, we are tied to this university one way or another.
For most of us, the results we continue to witness are just not acceptable for a program like Michigan. This hasn't been a one game issue; this is a decade's worth of built up frustration. What we witnessed this past Saturday has become ubiquitous when discussing this team's performance. We understand the 'it takes time" excuse, but that begins to hold little merit when we continue to regression instead of progression.
For many of us, we can accept a 9-3 type season, especially if we deduce that the program is moving forward. Last season's record of 8-4 followed by this years performences does not resemble a program that is moving in the right direction. This is on the heels of suffering through a similar (results) period three years ago. At this point, wins are meaningless to me. If this team and program make tangible strides and improve as a team, then we all can accept the extra time it might take for us to be competing and winning B1G titles.
Being semi-new here(Post RR) I can't imagine how this place was during the RR years. We are 5-1 and this place has been miserable and calling for half the staff to be fired and the name calling, I can go on but you summed it up well.
I've just been reading a lot during the past week and yikes, it no fun. Cheer up kids, it could always be worse.
I think the recent-ness (that's word, right?) of the RR years made a lot of us suffer particularly bad reactions when it became clear that Borges is going to keep doing things that we think are wacky (putting aside for a moment whether our beliefs are well-founded). There was so much chasing of our own tails and gnashing of teeth during those three years that I dread the thought of going back to it. I think a lot of people feel that way, and I think that's part of the reason you see so many people saying, "Fix this now!!!" We feel like we've seen this movie before, and we don't want to wait for the part when the killer clown destroys our hopes with a sharp gardening tool before someone takes remedial action.
Hold me, jHackney
/laying in fetal position, sucking thumb
One of the things I picked up during the RR era is to avoid the blog for a couple days. Brian sometimes made that decision easy by shutting it down after terrible games.
Brian didn't shut it down. They were on older servers that couldn't handle the crush of people descending on MGoBlog to rage. It was both a flaw and a feature. Now that Brian upgraded servers, the site stayed up all of Saturday. Dammit.
But e was a lot more liberal with the raised point total requirements to post and post threads. I think it finally took place Saturday night, but that was the first time in a long time, and it didn't continue till Monday as far as I can tell.
And I found it very interesting that Brian's public statement about raising the point total was that the mods requested it rather than simply saying it was being done because obviously. IMO he unnecessarily threw the mods under the bus on that one, but maybe I just read more into that in an overly-sensitive way.
"We aren't doing this because we're afraid you people will go apeshit. We're doing this because we have confirmation from our traffic cops that you people are, in fact, already going apeshit."
Sorry, but the tweet that I mention below doesn't support your reading. A person encouraging anarchy doesn't care that people are going apeshit.
I don't think you're being overly sensitive. Just before his tweet you reference, he tweeted to one of the mods to essentially just let things go, saying "Tonight is for anarchy." It's pretty clear he didn't want to raise the point levels.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can have an influx of new people who basically register to flame (or troll), so raising the point totals stems that particular problem. In fact, that has happened even BEFORE games, especially MSU games; RCMB... uh... 'folks' will register a bunch of accounts just to troll before, during, and after games. A couple of years ago I think Brian shut down new registrations during Sparty week.
At the same time, after a game like PSU you'll have a buuuuuunch of established posters going bananas, and eventually Brian will just say, "you know what, don't spend the rest of this terrible evening patrolling the unpatrollable amount of stuff being posted right now."
Gotta say that I think there's a huge difference between "You know what, don't spend the rest of this terrible evening patrolling the unpatrollable amount of stuff being posted right now" and "Tonight is for anarchy."
"Tonight anarchy wins."
We'd all prefer a calm board of rational discussion and emojis, Brian and the mods included. But sometimes shit is gonna burn, and fighting it is futile.
I remember server loads during the wins. Funny how I thought Brian was shutting it down during the losses.
There were plenty of meltdowns in the RR days and during the "Season of Infinite Sadness (2007)" and a lot of those meltdowns were pretty well deserved.
The problem is that the team has vastly improved and is nowhere near the awfulness of some of those seasons but the culture of MGoMelting down whenever we lose games (and sometimes even when we win) hasn't changed. We also meltdown with the same level of fervor as those days and it is in no way warranted.
To be frank, it's kind of embarrassing to watch.
Like I've said before, we don't have to act like every bad thing that happens is the end of the world, and doing so doesn't make you "care more" or a "better fan."
The man who says, "I love my girlfriend so much that if she left me I'd kill myself," doesn't love his girlfriend more than the guy who says, "I love my girlfriend so much, but if she left me I wouldn't kill myself." He has an emotional disorder.
Just a personal note. You have been a rock of sanity in a sea of shit here this week. Thank you for articulating and arguing for what many of us thought was a lost cause here.
I appreciate the kind words.
Edit: Also, whoops. The 2005 season was the one of infinite sadness. 2007 was the season of infinite sorrow.
Would a meltdown after a really bad Penn State game seem so bad if we didn't melt down over everything else?
Or would it be as bad if we hadn't mostly defended RR for years and then watched it go to hell? We looked back and in hindsight saw lots of warning signs that now seem scarily familiar....
I've avoided this place since Saturday because of how toxic it's been here lately. Some people take losses way too hard. I know we all love Michigan, but sense and reason leave this place if things don't go well.
I'm going back in my bunker. Knock four times when the war is over.
Legitimate debates about football strategy, tactics, game theory, personnel, etc. are all tolerated, and in fact encouraged, especially after an ugly loss. And when it comes to coaches (as opposed to recruits/players), there is a little more leeway. But attacks of a personal nature will not be tolerated, and will be addressed by management.
If you see something, say something. That's what the Mod Action Sticky (http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/moderator-action-sticky-3) is for
imo, before people post, they should consider this baseball advice: you can usually tell an umpire "hey, ump, that was a horsesh*t call". or "that call was f*in bullsh*t"" and you likely won't get tossed. however, if you tell an ump "hey, ump, you are an a-hole." or "you are f-ing horsesh*t", you are likely to get the heave ho. so i suggest a similar tactic when posting: avoid the personal name calling, but feel free to be critical of the playcalling all you want. i mean, that's what this forum should be for; to discuss the events and not personally attack coaches, players or posters.
I don't understand why people even bother to comment if they aren't going to contribute something substantive.
Your point is well taken. I know when I created the historical snowflake thread earlier this week, I was expecting to be raked over the coals and cussed ad infinitum. The thing that got me to start commenting on this blog was its membership's ability to discuss our collective passion for Michigan sports in a rational, respectful (most of the time) manner. We can do without the full-on pitchfork and torches input. This is still MGoBlog, FERGODSAKES.
I really just wish people would take a second to think about whether what they post helps make this place better or worse. We have something special here, but it takes thought and care to make sure MGoBoard can stay special. I don't have any illusions about the number of fucks in the game threads decreasing, but if you're throwing insults at players or other posters, it's time to step back and realize that you're making things worse.
Please don't think that I'm trying to preach or lecture or any other bullshit like that, but who wakes up in the morning and says "Gee, I have this forum I really like, I think I'll be as negative and difficult as I can possibly be without getting banned today"?
Apparently, A LOT of people.
I don't think a lot of people think that, I think a lot of people do things without thinking anything at all, and that's where we are now.
Pic of the stache or it isn't real
while standing in my kitchen listening to the Tigers game while also starring at my dog while he stares back at me.
Oh yea? You're a dooty head! Take that space coyote!
Seriously though, solid post. I have tried to avoid the site because it's been a lot of knee-jerk monkey poop flinging rather than actual dialogue. I'm not a regular Magnus/bisb/space coyote but I do frequent the site multiple times a day, and it hasn't been the same since the loss of negbangs. Even during the RR struggles it wasn't as low-brow and reactionary as it is how (immediately after the game sure but certainly not as late in the week as Wednesday night). Just my thoughts, not that they're going to make much of a difference.
Tl;dr I blame Ed Martin, as I do with all else in the world.
SC, thank you for this post. You are one of my favorite posters on this site and I, for one, greatly appreciate the knowledge you share with those of us that are not experts on the X's and O's of football.
I haven't gone on the blog at all the last two days. I love Borges, and would be dismayed to see him fired. I really want to see things go all the way through the next season.
But the point of your post is the recent descent into darkness and the mob mentality to lynch Borges. I really, really, hate the lack of civility and the "Boo Wendy Tesatburger" level of discourse. I hate snarky comments. I love the team and will support them, and feel that they will do well enough this year, and much better next year. AA Torch and Pitchfork is driving me further from the blog.
Thank you, Space Coyote. Oh, and I hope you are a Borges apologist and explain what he's doing and why it isn't working and what needs to happen.
p.s. The lack of kindness and consideration and the potty mouth stuff and internet tough guy comments are really rich, considering the anonymity of posters. Ya know what I'd like even more than sending people to Bolivia? For mods to post names, phone numbers, email addresses, and the like of those who have crossed the line. Let some of the tough guys stand behind what they say in real life. I'd love to see some of the OL show up at the dorm room doors of some of the people on the blog who are ripping them to shreds.
Ya know what I'd like even more than sending people to Bolivia? For mods to post names, phone numbers, email addresses, and the like of those who have crossed the line. Let some of the tough guys stand behind what they say in real life. I'd love to see some of the OL show up at the dorm room doors of some of the people on the blog who are ripping them to shreds.
Man, I love this. Won't happen and I admit shouldn't happen, but the liability factor would definitely help temper people I'd wager. This would go more for trolls but also the frequent-occasional (oxymoron, but kinda true) "ourbursts" of namecalling and overall immature BS and such from people that should know better. Take responsibilty for your actions and words. There are good things about internet annonyminity but acting like an A-hole/stuck up butthole/constant sh*t stirrer/etc. because people simply can and because their face isn't tied to it all, is not one of them.
Honestly, it doesn't help as much as you'd think, and there is always a work around, plus it just opens you up to an entirely new set of problems and opportunities for trolling.
You want people calling your home phone number to harass your family because of something you said on the internet?
You want people calling your home phone number to harass your family because of something you said on the internet?
Absolutely not but then again that's the point, I'm pretty even keeled (though I do get pissed) and I don't say things on here I wouldn't in "real life". It's the few, select people who don't think and embarrass themselves and bring up topics to stir sh*t that would hypthetically get put on blast and the above would be the punishment!
All that said, I agree though, that it just wouldn't be a good idea.
Obviously it is a stupid idea to post personal info. I just wish there was some accountability, and anonymity means there is none.
Obviously it is a stupid idea to post personal info. I just wish there was some accountability, and anonymity means there is none.
You know I like your Mr.Kass but this is the worst idea to hit the Board. I understand your point - people need to treat each other like real people rather than hiding behind the internets - but the idea is really bad. The ramifications of what you propose are 10000x times worse than having to deal with the troll. Trolls that get outed are going to make life horrible for the person that outs them, no matter how much they deserve to be ridiculed. As such, If I ever see personal information posted about anyone (friend or foe) I'm going to personally see to it that the poster gets banned and hunted. I think Brian and the mods feel the same.
/not a tough guy, just a touchy subject
I agree with you. To mix metaphors: the mob headed over the cliff and is rolling the ship too far to one side when we are better off manuevering on an even keel. Now we need to find a way to get back on the wagon after a week long bender.
I agree calling names is not a constructive way to criticize the coaching staff, nor apparently is calling bubble screens.
I think we as fans need to move on from, and see where we get. Nothing else we can do really. And to continue 200 line threads of Fire Borges isn't doing anything productive at this point.
So ..... it's all been said, over and over, be nice, and cheer for the success of the players.
PS Reading the DetNews John Wangler chat may help people feel a little better too:
Why weren't we able?
Maybe there's hope after all.
Thank you, Space Coyote. I've come to respect you greatly around here.
Either that or it's the latest demonstration of the herd mentality he's talking about.
But I'm going to wait to see which way opinion is running before I fucking commit to that attitude.
people are sltting their wrists over an offense averaging 40 ppg, just a lot of stupidity.
I think this blog would be a whole lot happier if people just closed their laptops, powered off their phones, and went for half-hour walk in the beautiful fall weather. We'd still be pissed about losing in a really absurd way, but I think the vitriol would less.
Yeah, this sure is rage-inducing:
Jesus there is so much fucking snow in that picture. And those damn rocks? My knees are gonna hurt like hell tomorrow. Damn it all to hell, how are we going to drive gone through that? I bet the heater is broken again.
I prefer Borgriguez, but to each their own.
Thank you for posting this SC.
SC, Would you say that 100+ teams have better building blocks than our offensive line and that other coaching staffs would run into the same problems if they were to coach these same players? Didn't Buffalo blow the doors off Akron? Didn't Indiana blow out Penn State? If we struggle against MSU and Ohio that's one thing. Struggling against Akron and UConn is another.
I think it's ludicrous to accept this level of futility at Michigan as a result of the rebuilding process. Please explain to me how it could be THIS bad and part of the overall plan - in year 3.
By the way, an indirect quote from former player who works for an NFL team, "He's the freakin' head coach, he should wear a fucking headset." If Hoke cannot embrace something so basic that every other coach does to minimize the chance for stupid things happening in critical moments, it makes me question his capacity as a head coach. He is literally putting his job entirely in Borges' hands.
Good change of pace with this thread. I think alot of the animosity has manifested, because the season started ideally. Then it was like between the ND and Akron games the wheels fell off. Gardner's turnovers have made Borges hesitant to air it out, which in turn has led to the offensive line running a blocking scheme that it's not prepared to execute yet, which has led to virtually no running game, which necessitates throwing more, which could lead to more turnovers. It's a vicious cycle.
But I wonder how much years and years of below-expectations football has contributed to the sour moods around here. I know I for one enjoy Michigan football a lot less then I used to and I'm crankier on the board as a result.
We routinely get posts here outlining expectations that no program in history has been able to maintain for more than a decade or so, and certainly not in the 85-scholarship era: average 11 wins a year, never go worse than 9-3, etc. We went 40 years without a losing season and even that wasn't good enough.
Are herd mentality one way (FIRE BORGES!) or the other (You guys are over-reacting, we lost one game). Right now, it's heavily FIRE BORGES, but a lot of the You're Overreacting guys aren't exactly being reasonable about the discussion either.
When someone lists a bunch of explicit factual grievances with Borges, responses like "Tell me exactly who you would hire instead of Borges, I want a name because without that your point is useless" or "You're so smart, if running directly into the line for no gain is so terrible, then what play would you run that is guaranteed to work" is insulting to intelligent discussion in its own right. It's not as noxious as "He's fat and arrogant and must be fired", but it's non-responsive in a different way.
A lot of the legit complaints being made are handwaved away. By Borges, by Hoke, and by other users here. I'm fairly certain that isn't helping to alleviate the severe irritation and outright anger many are feeling.
Express an opinion, and then someone responds with "Show me your homework"' like Im some kind of ignorant pupil, and must substantiate my view with a detailed dissertation? Why? Because my opinion's validity is pointless without that? Meanwhile, "fire borges!" And fat jokes rain down. Thats whats really pointless. But i support the OP's lament. As a UM fan, this has been a frustrating aftermath week.
There is no civility to appeal to here. The base is at heart base, and rightfully passionate. Football is a game of emotion as much or more so than X's and O's. You lose - it hurts. You move on. I read over the crass and take it as it comes.
Every ounce of goodness is 10 times more read that commented on. Every civil comment is appreciated in it's due. The meta gives play to the Michigan mystique which has always been misguided.
I agree. I know these kids are getting free room & board and all these other great perks, and the coaches are paid to win games, but it still doesn't feel good to see such hateful, unconstructive things said about them on the Internet. It makes me mad when non-UM fans just call Coach Hoke a fat slob instead of critiquing his actual coaching - I can't believe actual UM fans are doing the same thing to Coach Borges.
I didn't get to see the game. I only caught the OT on the radio. Since then I've checked in on a couple of the front page posts but basically I just haven't wanted to be around here. This morning I was finally brave enough to look into the board topics; this place is all "sucks to your ass-mar!" and, "you shut your ass up! I've got the conch!" and, "nom, nom, nom, let's eat that guy next..."
I think I'm going to climb back in my boat and continue to watch the island from afar until society is redeveloped.
The point system back? Enough already... My lack of ability to gain points is effecting my life performance.
Good post! Thank you for taking the time and making the effort.
It's weird how quickly we were spoiled by that BCS winning season.
Where is the 500 point rule? These sorts of meltdowns are to be expected. In the past Brian has dealt with them by limiting posting to 500 points. Let that be the rule ( for 5000 points - whatever ) and be done with it.
Looking under the hood of MGoBloggers is not a pretty picture. I don't think meta pleas are going to open closed ears.
That was quite good. I'm impressed.
negative emotions are a stronger motivation to post and call sports talk radio.
I am a Michigan fan, I root for Michigan, be the coaches right or wrong.
I gave up booing, anyone, due to the following,
It had just come out that Ron Leflore had lied about his age when the Tigers signed him, basically out of prison.
Inebriated in the centerfield bleachers, I regaled him with such witticisms as:
Are the walls higher here, or at Jackson?
How old are you? 35? You field like you're 45!!!
He could definitely hear me, as, could, apparently, Joe Falls, who wrote his column the next morning about the "Faceless Idiots" in the stands.
Turns out Billy Martin had told him just before game time that his brother had been shot and killed, and he did not have to play that day if he wanted to sit out.
On topic, I hope this blog does not turn into a venting outlet for the disturbed.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. We forget that these are real people trying to play, or coach, a game. I understand that passions will run wild, but the tendency on here and everywhere in our society to consider celebrities and athletes as some sort of inanimate objects put on earth solely for our entertainment, rather than real people with feelings like our own, is disconcerting.
I'm also grateful to SC for his thoughtful OP.