MBB: What did we learn in Italy?

Submitted by AC1997 on

As we embark into the first week of football I wanted to post one last thing about the basketball team's trip to Italy.  I'm sure UMHoops will have several detailed posts this week that will do a better job of summarizing the trip, but I thought I'd start a thread to get people talking about it.  While the competition was disappointing and thus any conclusion should be taken with that in mind, 

What did we learn about the team?

  • Irvin made the sophomore leap.  
    Before the trip I was skeptical that he could become much more than a shooter this season and that others would have to step up to replace Stauskas.  Now I think Irvin will be the alpha male of this team.  He shot lights out from the FIBA three point line and also was active in the paint and on the boards.  He'll start at the 3 and play 30+ minutes per game.
  • We should be fine at center.
    Mitch McGary sadly isn't walking through that door this season, but we may not miss Morgan and Horford as much as we feared.  Donnal and Doyle more than held their own in Italy and each had double-doubles.  Perhaps this is where the poor competition is most obvious, but they seem to be pretty interchangeable and good for a minimum of the 15/10 slash line that we hoped for last season.  Considering everyone was skeptical of Doyle and wanted Donnal as a stretch-four, this is very encouraging.
  • Chatman will remind us of GR3.
    I mean that in just about every way possible.  The good news is that he should be fine as the starting 4 on this team and contribute in a variety of athletic ways.  He should be able to perfom similar to GR3 from the past two years - 10-12ppg, 5-6rpg.  He will also probably have an inconsistent jump shot and frustrate Brian by taking long 2s.  But he seemed active at both ends and should be capable of 25-30 minutes at the 4.
  • Beilein knows how to find talent.
    Okay, this isn't something we learned in Italy, but more evidence surfaced.  All of the unheralded freshmen had exciting moments and the fight for playing time will be fierce.  

What didn't we figure out yet?

  • How good will the PGs be?
    Based on last year we know that Walton and Spike will be fine, but we don't know yet whether they will help make up the slack from the loss of so many talented players.  Walton finished with a strong final game both otherwise struggled.  Spike didn't play that much but also played well in the final game.  Perhaps they saved their best performances for when the game was actually competitive.  But whether Walton made a sophomore leap isn't clear yet.
  • Who is going to red-shirt?
    We know that this is the deepest team Beilein has ever had.  We know that historically Beilein has played an 8-9 man rotation.  But we don't know who from this large freshman class will redshirt.  My gut feeling was that MAAR and Wilson were the most likely candidates, but now I'm down to just WIlson.  As talented as he probably is, there isn't an obvious need for him in the rotation and his injury and weight may warrant a redshirt.  If I had to guess, I'd say they try to RS him.  MAAR played significant minutes and showed he could be a huge spark off the bench.  He may only get 10 minutes once the B10 season starts, but hard to see him sitting now.  Likewise Dawkins seems to have solidified the back-up spot at the 3/4 wing positions.  Doyle is playing 20mpg at center.  So either Wilson displaces someone once he's healthy and drives a redshirt on someone like Dawkins, we see an Izzo-like 11 man rotation, or Wilson gets the RS.
  • Will Max be anything more than he has been?
    With how well the Donnal/Doyle combo performed, it seems that Max is once again stuck as the emergency third center.
  • How good is this team?
    They looked unstoppable in Italy and better at this stage than most expected....but there's a lot of work to do before they take on a tough conference and tough schedule.

Chime in with your thoughts in the comments.

CLord

August 24th, 2014 at 8:54 PM ^

Don't know about the "we should be fine at center" thing.  Our bigs looks young and not particularly athletic.  Wait and see on that one.

Blerg

August 24th, 2014 at 8:59 PM ^

We already knew this, but regardless of what he does during his time at UM, Austin Hatch is an incredible kid. I'm proud he is wearing the maize & blue.

UMfan21

August 24th, 2014 at 9:00 PM ^

Did not see any of the games, so it's hard to tell anything. But I hope Beilein learned some things about his lineups.

From what I've read it sounds like it's possible neither MAAR nor Dawkins redshirt. Think I it like Caris two years ago- you'd prefer them to redshirt but they are too good to keep on the bench. I think this year Beilein is forced into a larger rotation.

madmaxweb

August 24th, 2014 at 9:05 PM ^

I think you hit it right on the head with your post, good job. But I do believe we will see some growing pains for the 2 C's and I don't think they will become a consinsently decent duo for this year. Next year tho, is a whole nother story.

AlwaysBlue

August 24th, 2014 at 9:10 PM ^

surprised if they don't miss Morgan. It's hard to replace his experience, smarts and leadership on and off the court. It looks like the Double D's are going to be good fits and ultimately bigger offensive contributors than JMo but it's too early to think the Wolverines won't skip a beat. On the other hand, I don't think they will miss Horford. He just wasn't fluid or quick enough to be a plus on the offensive end (at least in a Beilein offense) and he never was the defender JMo was.

What I am anxious to see is who provides the floor leadership. Who is going to be the guy who collects them on defense and offense.

Young John Beilein

August 24th, 2014 at 9:16 PM ^

I will go ahead and disagree about Chatman.  Doesn't really remind me of Glenn at all.  I think he is a much better playmaker, but not on the same level athletically as GRIII.  I think he'll be a better player overall, possibly much better.

Additionally, I'm not concerned at all about Walton's progression, and I don't believe we can project Irvin's success.  It does look like his shooting is on, and from deep distance, but I think most of his shots were pretty wide open or at the rim in transition.  I hope he proves me wrong, I just need to see more.  I think he didn't get rave reviews at a camp earlier this summer, where he presumably faced better competition.

Finally, I think we'll compete for the B1G title, possibly losing out to Wiscy by a game or two if they have a juggernaut-type season, which they should, really.  But I don't think anyone should ever count out Beilein's team.

 

 

bacon1431

August 24th, 2014 at 9:28 PM ^

I think you are drawing too much from the performance of the C in these games, same with the PG. Our PG will be just fine. We may not know exactly how good they will be, but we have significant sample sizes in seeing how Spike and Walton can perform.



As for the C, the teams we played weren't exactly very big and the style of play is not much like we will see in conference play. I'm encouraged with what we saw but they are still a big question mark.

HelloHeisman91

August 24th, 2014 at 9:28 PM ^

Unfortunately I don't think you can learn anything about your squad when you're beating up on a bunch of overmatched teams.  Does anyone remember our football team running the football at will against CMU last year?

Webber's Pimp

August 24th, 2014 at 9:30 PM ^

The trip was encouraging but to be honest I'm not sure the Italian teams we faced on the tour are very good. I'd temper the optimism until we've had a larger sample size of games against D-1 opponents.

alum96

August 24th, 2014 at 10:10 PM ^

Don't think we learned too much other than Irvin is deadly from long range which will translate anywhere on any court and MAAR really likes to drive to the basket.  The foul throw shooting was lacking which again - translates on any court on the country regardless of opponent so I was disappointed in some of the numbers there, as we have been a bit spoiled in that regard. 

Some ill educated views just from reading some tweets and reviews elsewhere:

  • I think the Donnal hype train was on serious overdrive about mid April to May last year and that has been doused a bit.  That has been offset by Doyle's performance.  My feel last spring (and I was buying the Donnal hype) was offense would not be an issue from the C position as we had limited offense much of last year until Morgan went off late, but the defense and rebounding would be the issues.  The interior defense was a horror show when Morgan as not in, and generally you don't get great interior defense from young players unless it is pure athletic prowess (see UK's players)  I am still not convinced our 5s will be anything more than - best case - ok in that regard.  Banging against 6'6 guys in Italy is different from banging with 6'9-6'10 guys in the Big 10.  I expect foul trouble to continue to be an issue for the 5 and thus Max will get playing time.

 

  • Agree with you on Chatman - was surprised how much of a volume shooter he seems to be.  Thought he was more of a poor man's Tayshaun Prince/Grant Hill where he is a facilitator from the forward position and less of a shooter type.  His distribution of shots was also ... interesting.  That could change in January - who knows.  Also he rebounded not as well as I would have hoped, considering he was probably as tall or taller than his opponents all of this trip.  He sounds like an "elegant" player but he needs to get some dawg in him, esp in this conference.  A guy like Dawson is going to rip a soft player apart - if he turns out just to be a finesse guy.

 

  • I don't see MAAR who will be 20 during the season RS.  In fact he might steal some minutes from Spike if he plays well and Spike doesnt become more consistent.  Most here thought to get Spike minutes we'd play a Walton/Spike backcourt at time, but that is not a good look for our defense and instead it might be a Walton/MAAR backcourt when Caris needs to rest.  We'll see. 

Team will  improve a lot from Aug to Nov, and then again from Nov to Feb so not too worried.  I do think some of these guys are going to get a rude awakening to physicality of Big 10 basketball so they just will have to adjust quickly.

AC1997

August 24th, 2014 at 10:18 PM ^

I agree that there is a LONG way to go before we know how good the Double D's are at center. But without taking ANYTHING away from Morgan, did he ever have three double double games in a season? Donnal had one and Doyle had two in Italy. Even against a pick up team in the CCRB that's a promising start.

They won't have the defensive abilities that Morgan did, but they may be able to offset that by being better offensively and blocking a shot or two.

gwkrlghl

August 24th, 2014 at 10:23 PM ^

It's likely that those teams are more comparable to DII/DIII teams than any decent DI competition. Everyone looks nice against them. Specificially, I'll believe Zak makes the leap from Just A Shooter when it happens against real DI competition.

champswest

August 24th, 2014 at 10:29 PM ^

this year. He may well be, but I think it will more likely be LeVert. He has more ways to score.

We will give up defense at the 5, but that may be offset by more offense. I like the way that Doyle can finish with either hand and Donnal can shoot with range. We will probably need Max due to foul troubles.

Way too early to tell about red shirts, but I think all of these guys can contribute this year (with Wilson being an unknown at this point). This may be a year when we have a certain 3 players coming off the bench in one game and a different 3 in the next.

The biggest question mark in my mind is leadership.

Michigan4Life

August 24th, 2014 at 11:45 PM ^

LeVert will be the alpha dog for the team and he's still recovering from foot injury that he suffered towards the end of the season.  PnR will go through LeVert while Irvin will get more PT and opportunities to score.

This is might be one of the deeper team that we have in a long time and there will be good players sitting on the bench.  DJ Wilson haven't had a chance to play due to his injury but he is expected to make an impact as a 4 with his length, shooting and shot blocking.

Franz Schubert

August 25th, 2014 at 6:51 AM ^

Is way better than I ever expected. He is by far our fastest player and seems to be able to keep his vision at top speed. I expect he will have a very significant role on this team as he brings unique elements to the team.

MChem83

August 25th, 2014 at 7:33 AM ^

that anyone except Hatch (for whom It was expected anyway) is destined for a redshirt. Wilson will likely be a bit behind the curve, but his injury alone will not keep him on the bench. While Doyle and Donnal both showed promise, they are likely to be foul prone, especially once we get to the BT, and we may need a third big to spell them on occasion. Unless Beilfeldt improves significantly over last year (and there was no sign of that in Italy), I think Wilson will have to be in the mix to get at least a few minutes at the big slot. Same for our freshman guards..Dawkins and MAAR may be too good to keep on the sidelines all year, though I could see an outside chance of Dawkins getting a RS. MAAR looks a bit raw, but way too dynamic a player to put on the shelf.

We'll have to wait to see more, But this may very well be Beilein's deepest team. There will likely be 8-9 guys who get PT in virtually every game.