Butler went to two championships in a row not teo years ago, just saying....
i like 'em both
Butler went to two championships in a row not teo years ago, just saying....
Lets see, Webber ended up getting run on a laundry list of charges, including lying to a federal grand jury (the icing on the cake).
The feds also found money orders from Martin to Traylor in one of their raids. White was also charged (but those charges were later dropped after he cooperated fully with the FBI). Other players were also called before court.
Then of course you have Taylor and Traylor in the SUV (with high school recruit Cleaves and Martin) returning from the party featuring drugs, booze, and strippers.
If Martin hadn't died and the FBI had time to grill him, I hate to think what they'd have found. Nothing good to say the least.
No banners, ever. No association with them, ever. They're one of the most shameful periods of our athletic history ever. Yost's racism is likely the worse, but this one is solidly in the top five.
And...those players didn't earn the banners in question. Unless you're suggesting that the Fab Five, not Taylor, Traylor, Bullock, etc. were doing the same and just didn't get caught?
They can hang the banners at their houses and wear their rings on their own time. They disgraced our house and should not be welcome in it.
This was not money to put food on the table for their families or pay for their grandmother's medical treatment. This was taking cash ($37k and up) from a guy who ran a gambling ring. This was taking cars from a guy who ran a gambling ring. This was going to parties featuring drugs thrown by a guy who ran a gambling ring.
Think about the level of the scandal, the FBI was kicking down doors over this. This wasn't some "The NCAA yells at you for a bit and you miss the playoffs for a few years". This was "the federal government is here, and they're pissed off" level of scandal. That kind of reaction doesn't happen over boosters giving "pocket money" and the like. People who take part in gambling rings that reach the level of FBI raids have no place in Michigan lore or our sporting venues.
Again...are you talking about Jalen, Chris, Juwan, Ray and Jimmy? Or the OTHERS...?
Webber, Rose, Howard, Jackson, King.
Webber's crimes are covered above. Rose was called for the grand jury for recieving money, although less amounts than the others called, he was still implicated though. That's 40% of the Fab Five implicated in ties to Martin and his whole ring. So yes I'm talking about the Fab Five. We know Martin ties back to the program to 1989, we know he had ties to at least 40% of the Fab Five, and we know he had ties to the program after them. With that kind of involved you dump the era. If 40% of a group is ineligble, the group itself doesn't get to be eligible.
I know who the Fab Five are. The crimes you were listing were, with the exception of your mention of Webber, all from post-FF players. Damn, we've got some angry posters in here tonight.
To this day I still think it is fishy that Cleaves was in that SUV.
I LOVE the Fab Five...I believe they were victim to a system, I think they were great for college basketball...I will always side with them.
However, what happened, happened. Time doesn't change that. Welcome them back, even put their faces and pictures in wall murals and other projects. But no to the banners. If the NCAA doesn't acknowledge them, we shouldn't either. The fact is...it didn't count.
But I should still see clips, faces, pictures, etc. when I walk around Crisler.
The games didn't count...but don't tell me for a second that they didn't exist.
I agree with all of this, well said.
They didn't count, but hey did exist .. as do the memories.
I was contemporary with the Fab 5 and I relished in the phenomenon at A2. I hung out the window of my friends East Quad Window on the 4th Floor and watched probably the greatest pickup game of all time. As a University - except for those racist alums who were skeptical of even Cazzie Russell - we embraced them and profited. I was proud. It doesn't make the actions of the crestfallen C-Webb (my brother went to DCD a couple years behind Chris and saw firsthand the systematic graft) who was on the take from like 7th grade excusable or justify putting up the banners back up. But all the palace intrigue that was exposed after-the-fact has little to do with the incredibly fun, wild and exciting "era" on campus at the time.
I agree that the banners shouldn't be hung and that we should be overly contrite on account of the extrapolating negativity that eventually comatized the program for a decade plus. But aside from Webber, whose corruption is a far more nuanced (pre-dating the U by years) occurrence than is trivialized on most boards, the basketball was a blast: Crisler was transformed into a madhouse and the memories are real and something I'll always appreciate. Rightly so, younger posters see this as maybe overly nostalgic on the part of some of us oldies as they have really only experienced the Fab 5 as a dark historical footnote: "Scandal, something, something, Webber unapologetic, cash, something, something..." and I get that. But I will always love 'em. Go Blue!
The only way they go back up is if Webber comes forth and talks openly and honestly about it. That way, they can clear the air, and allow for forgiveness. And eventually Webber would be welcomed back, and they'd be able to find a way to properly honor the Fab Five, be it by raising a few banners or doing something else, like a monument or something at Crisler.
That will probably never happen. Because Webber will never talk.
If they point shaved they never come out. If they took "pizza money" put them back up. They did neither and the university had some culpability too. That said, I am a " put them I the hallway" guy. I think that is fair and balanced approach, plus incidentally not bad for recruiting to be able to talk about the most exciting thing besides the running Rebs to hit college basketball in most our lifetimes.
I don't understand the "banners go back up if webber comes clean or apologizes crowd". One, he doesn't need to come clean, he got busted. Two, we always over emphasize the need for apologies and then still hate the apologizer even afterwards since, like most apologies....it would be inadequate (see Ozzie guillen). That said, I don't think it's even necessary. The rest of guys who acted with integrity and have rehabilitated themselves with the school and UofM community deserve recognition. Leave c Webb home for the event if he wants to continue to play the victim here. Seems we should be allowed to separate our bitterness towards the dude from the overall love and desire to fondly remember the highpoints of the era/ larger group of good guys. I am ready.
of taking them out of storage and putting them someplace where people can see them... But not in Crisler, with the legitimate Final Four banners. I think they need to be up to serve as a reminder of both past glories... and the price of disobeying the NCAA. Another idea that would probably be harder to pull off well, might be to dedicate a home game a year, where they bring the banners out during half time and say something both about how well those teams played, but also something explicint reminding people why they aren't hanging with the rest of the banners. But I think that's very hard to do tastefully and harder to do tastefully in a different way each year.
The Fab Five happened. All of it, the good, the bad and the ugly. I think it's ridiculous to hide the banners away forever and try to forget all of that ever happened or to only ever talk about it as what a bad thing they did. Because for all of that, they won a lot of games and earned the banners with their play on the court. But I also think that you have to treat them somewhat like the tainted goods they are. Accept the glory, but also accept the blame. I think there is a way to be proud of the accomplishment without condoning the actions.
bringing the banners back once a year to say "something explicint reminding people why they aren't hanging with the rest of the banners" would be a very awkward event to witness. I could see them using the banners as an example while speaking with the team at the beginning of the season.
The documentary made me a little sick when the players were complaining about "not getting their cut" in jersey sales. Someone should have explained to them why they were at Michigan. 1) Path to the NBA 2) Get an education, be a part of something really special (NCAA Basketball), have a great time and have a guaranteed job upon graduation. You don't take money.
Win them the right way.... Let's put some up coach B
We, as fans, can't ride our high horses about other schools that cheat and then make excuses for Chris Webber. If we do, we're no better than those we profess to detest.
Webber did exactly what Ohio State's football team did under Tressel. He cheated, lied about it, and never admitted to anything that the FBI hadn't already found. He has never demonstrated anything close to contrition. Instead, he has acted as though he was entitled to cheat, and that those who would hold him responsible for his actions are the "bad guys."
Worst of all, Chris Webber made it "cool" to take Ed Martin's money. If Webber hadn't taken it, neither would the next group of players. What Chris Webber did was against everything the University of Michigan stands for.
The bottom line: Chris Webber did exactly what we make fun of SEC football players for doing. He is the biggest stain in the history of University of Michigan athletics. His transgressions caused all of us as fans to suffer through ten years of basketball hell.
Banners from the time he cheated should be burned.
to kids when they were in high school. It's not Webber's fault that other kids took money too
You can't really expect that the Fab Five will want to be welcomed back, if some of their primary achievements are not hanging from the rafters for all to see.
Not a fan of MSC. Not a fan of less than forthright athletics, either. So ... I guess they can stay where they are.
220am and posting on mgoblog. I do not have a problem. I can quit anytime.
However, I couldn't care less about C-Webb's side of the story and I don't feel like he owes anyone an apology. The university and College basketball gained 50 times more than anything he could have recieved from Ed Martin or anyone else.
Posted on the same board that rips into Pryor an Tressel on a daily basis. Call it "The Michigan Difference."
Otherwise it isn't happening anytime soon
I remember Jalen on twitter talking about how their numbers should be retired in 2013. That'd be better than nothing.
For what, exactly? They never won anything. Unless we're going to retire everyone's jersey from this year, and from all appearences, a whole host of jerseys from teams in the very near future.
Final Four 1993
Thank God for MSC.
You don't celebrate the greatest embarrassment to the university in any way, shape, or form.
I loved the Fab Five. Lived and died with every win and loss. Fact is, though, they underachieved during the regular season, never won a Big 10 Championship, and while their 2 tournament runs were epic (especially the win over Kentucky) in the end they didn't win anything. Even as a kid I could tell I was seeing a group of supremely talented basketball players who didn't bring 100% every game, didn't really focus until tournament time. So this group, who I loved, never won anything, and while winning nothing contributed to bringing down our basketball program. Makes me feel pretty conflicted when I think about the Fab 5. I still love 'em, but I don't want to see their banners in our house. This is MIchigan, fergodsakes. Not the SEC. Not Ohio. So I remember the good stuff, accept the punishment for the bad, and live with it.
Put them up in a display case in Crisler Center. With posters describing the team, the run, the issues and the vacating. There's no reason we can't celebrate the on court accomplishments while showing the errors that happened. No need to hide our history, put it on display and learn from it.
This. I'd support this anytime. There's no denying the greatness, both good and bad, of this era and I think it's something to be honored.
I've put forward a similar notion previously. The new Crisler Center will have plenty of display area. Putting the banners in a display case and explaining the history, maybe with clips about the banners in the Fab Five documentary, would be a good idea. People should understand the history so they can debate it.
What's to debate?
Should players get a cut of the revenue generated by their personal jersey sales? I see a lot of 16s running around and Denard doesn't get a dime from that.
Should the NCAA be able to own the marketing rights to your likeness for life? This is currently in courts as many (including Bo Jackson IIRC) are suing the NCAA for selling trading cards with their likenesses.
Why not allow the Olympic model in college athletics? that hasn't tainted amatureism.
Can the NCAA justify the billions that it makes on March Madness while regulating if student athletes can be provided cream cheese or jelly on their bagels?
There's no reason we can't celebrate the on court accomplishments while showing the errors that happened. No need to hide our history, put it on display and learn from it.
No reason? What about the fact that we did all that with an ineligible player? Look, I loved the Fab Five. But Webber was retroactively ruled ineligible by the NCAA. It makes no sense for us to celebrate anything he did. Would you expect USC to have a display case honoring Reggie Bush?
But if USC had a display case with the BCS trophy and a plaque that said something to the effect of "We had one of the best teams in the nation, but off field trangressions tarnished the university and lead to sanctions" along with information about the team, facts, why everything was vacated, etc. I'd support that.
It's not like the banners and games don't exist. Why not display them with their full history, good and bad?
IMO putting them up in the playing area (next to the 1989 banners) would be celebrating them and stupid. Hiding them in a library and pretending that they don't exist is also stupid. I think a display case is a good middle ground that can tell the truth.
Actually, in the eyes of the NCAA, those games do not exist. If we had known all along that Webber would be ruled ineligible, banners would have never been made. Given what we know now, we should just destroy the banners - continuing to store them is pointless.
You're looking at this with your heart and not your head. Hey, I loved them too. But Webber was ruled ineligible, which invalidates what the team accomplished. I don't want USC to do anything to honor Reggie Bush and OSU to do anything to honor Pryor or Clarett, and it would be hypocritical of me to turn around and say that it's somehow OK for us to recognize the accomplishments of a player who took even more money that they did.
Bottom line: if Webber wanted to have a legacy, he shouldn't have taken the money from Martin.
The games happened. It is invalid - vacated even, but they still happened. You're saying a constant reminder to play by the rules wouldn't be a good thing in a display case?
Well maybe all the season ticket holders should get a refund from the games they paid for during that era.
with all the dirty programs in the NCAA today and nothing is done about it why should Mich continue to honor the NCAA's rulings. Ohio gets away with everything they want and don't even get a slap. Yeah, take away a couple of sholarships but Meyer still signs as many guys as every other school. So what is the penalty again? And Mary Sue Coleman has proven over and over that she doesn't give a crap about athletics.
I don't think she doesn't give a "crap" about athletics, I just think she's inept in dealing with athletics. Can't talk to Ferentz because she didn't want to look like she was "poaching". That's smart, put your own self-interest in front of the school which pays you an absolutely disgusting amount of money to institute smoking bans and other irrelevant policies. She should stick to her six-figure "part-time" job with Johnson and Johnson.
Not a fan of the "college administration" industry.
Dumbest post of the thread. I am very sure that MSC understands the story.
Probably the dumbest post I have seen in quite a while.
I'm fairly certain that MSC knows far, far more about this story than you. She was in charge when UM self-imposed penalties and negotiated with the NCAA. I doubt any of us know even a small fraction as much about the case.
You in particular seem poorly informed. Federal prosecutors alleged that Webber gave Martin money after turning pro as a partial repayment for money he took while at UM and in HS.
Nice language though, really classes up the board.
When one of the mods runs across this one...
JFC, man. I know we are a bit loose with the prose on this board, but a C-Bomb?!?
I think MSC is a pretty good president. That's just my opinion, man.
is right on this one thing. As much as it hurts me, leave the banners down. However, it is time to bring the Fab Five back home. Kids make mistakes. Time to move on.
Hopefully she'll handle this better than the coaching search. Why don't college Presidents stick to.... whatever they're supposed to "do"? Gee and others have proven that bureaucratic nerds aren't always well suited to handle athletics.
saying the rest of the Fab 5 shouldn't be punished for what Chris Webber did...
Where do you draw the line on these things? Should we make a rule saying if only 20% cheated then it's ok?
Were all of OSU's players cheating and getting SUVs and tats? Probably not.
For those saying Ed Martin paid players that went to Duke and all these other schools in the country or the age-old defense that John Wooden did it also - this is NOT a valid excuse.
Coleman wants to hold the university to a higher standard and I commend her for that. The Ed Martin scandal wasn't practicegate where we were stretching for 20 mins. We committed serious violations and we took those banners down for a reason.
The legacy of the fab 5 will always exist in our hearts and minds. To me, that is good enough.