Edit: Posted this and then realized not everyone went to Catholic schools... Meant to stand for What Would Hoke Do
Edit: Posted this and then realized not everyone went to Catholic schools... Meant to stand for What Would Hoke Do
Hoke would double-point as they were put back in their rightful place in Crisler.
They shouldn't go back up. I'd love for the Fab 5 to be welcomed back, but the banners can stay where they are.
The Final Four runs must be erased, unfortunately.
But that doesn't mean we need to forget the players.
The pinnacle was winning in 1989, not losing in the finals twice a couple years later.
My suggestion, hang them in the practice facility, it's the best of both worlds.
Thank you. You'd think The Daily sports folks would catch that one.
I expect that practically everyone who reads it will be wondering what that "pinnacle" was.
But I'll happily credit the team on two consecutive trips to the Final Fours; that is, as long as the same credit goes to Cazzie Russell, Bill Buntin, Oliver Darden and George Pomey who did the same with Coach Dave Strack in 1964 and 1965. Losing only to John Wooden's then-developing (and possibly tainted) dynasty at UCLA.
"Possibly tainted". Can you explain that one for me? Not trying to flame or anything, I've just heard of this before
When did the NCAA institute booster regulations? Was that kind of thing even watched back then? I feel like college players must have gotten a lot of free meals from some mom and pop restaurants. Now they can barely pick up a dollar bill if they find it on campus.
Could you provide some more info on how the UCLA titles were tainted? I've never seen anything about it. Given their success, I'm sure something had to be going on that wasn't all right.
'89 was the pinnacle
I generally don't like "cute" or "triangulation" or "half-measures", but maybe it's appropriate here. Hang the banners in the practice facility - they were great ball players.
I'm still embarrassed by the whole unfortunate episode. I crave the same type of shame from Ohio, but I'll never get it.
Put em back up. The rest of the Fab 5 shouldn't be penalized for the actions of Chris Webber.
But neither should the University of Michigan.
You do realize that Chris Webber's eligibility was compromised by his parents receiving a room in the team hotel from Ed Martin, who was given said room by Steve Fisher? This is not just about Chris Webber. It's about something far bigger than him, though it has been exacerbated by his total lack of remorse for what his actions did to the University, his teammates, and the Michigan student-athletes who played by the rules, yet had to overcome the sanctions his actions partially created.
This entire thing, banners and all, has to do with the fact that the University allowed the largest financial scandal in NCAA history (until the last several years) to occur on its watch. It won games with ineligible players. There is no way the University can maintain any shred of credibility by putting the fruits of those victories back in the Crisler rafters. That's the position Mary Sue has taken, which has been echoed by Dave Brandon.
But, I think we do have to realize that the two polarities in this debate aren't likely to change their minds. People (like me) who think the banners should stay where they are probably won't be swayed by anything, nor will the folks who think they should go back up. That's just the way it is. These threads keep happening, we keep rehashing the same debates, and it never goes anywhere. At the end of the day, the University appears to be taking the position that hey will stay where they are. I think it begins and ends with that.
"I'm also not completely sure Mary Sue Coleman cares for the athletics program either."
You kinda ruined a great post with this stupid final sentence.
For a university president, Mary Sue is about as pro-athletics as you're going to find. Jim Duderstadt, on the other hand...
While your point about Martin is true, did any other university give him the level of access Michigan did? Free tickets. Hotel rooms. Access to players and coaches. And don't forget the privileged position (and vacant spot on the bench held open) for his best friend Perry Watson.
Yes, Ed Martin may have had connections with a lot of guys, but nobody else put out the red carpet for him quite like Michigan did. And that's why we got slammed for it.
I agree with her. If you want to put your nose in the air about being a Michigan Man and doing things the right way you should feel the same way.
But some day, you know Dave Brandon is going to run those things to the rafters with giant Pepsi logos on them...
You spelled "Arby's" wrong.
Mary Sue adheres to the straight and narrow, no question of that. I tend to agree with her. We took the banners down for a reason. The passing of a couple years doesn't change anything.
Was never really the problem!!!
Yea, we all know about Chris Webber, but the facts show how that went, and the real problem was with the so called FAB FIVE 2, full of busts and well paid college kids .................... lol.
Ugh, well paid and with nice vehicles.
We should all remember the Fab Five, never forget!!
What do you mean by "the facts show how that went"?
You might as well hang Super Bowl championship banners up if you're going to hang those up. Those games were vacated and for a good reason. We cheated and we got caught. It's no different than OSU football hanging up banners/giving out rings from 2010.
...was paid to pick Michigan ?
I know what Chris Webber did was wrong, but that was 20% of the greatness, and to blame Jalen, Juwan, Jimmy, and Ray for what happened before the draft ... lets be serious here, the players that came after the Fab Five were the guys who were paid for their committment. Remember that.
Actually, no evidence was found that anyone was given money to come to Michigan. Four players were paid while they were here. One was a member of the Fab Five, so unfortunately the careers of all five are tarnished.
Don't know why you're being downvoted. I personally do not want my alma matter to associate with one of the biggest monetary scandals in college sports in any way whatsoever. I'll personally appreciate the Fab 5, but publically I'm afraid those banners should not even be in the practice facility.
Those who are for those banners going up, do you not see the nationwide positive attention Arkansas is getting by firing Petrino?
Jalen also accepted cash, pocket money as he called it, but he still admitted to taking some. Chris was the offender here, and if chris came clean and admitted everything, when it began and made things right, I could see it.......
They shouldn't go up unless chris took the big money after declaring for the nba....outside of that.....it's hard to put it in any light that isn't negative....
That goes on everywhere, always has .. if you don't think that there are people who give a little to these kids, you're crazy. Now, giving a duffle-bag full of 100,000 dollars like you hear some kids get, back then and now, that's different ..... and Jalen didn't receive that. He was given money so he could eat, go to a movie, etc ... not so he could buy a car, or anything like that. I am and will always be a defender of The Fab Five, they were so much of the kind of basketball player I ended up being... I am righty, but out of desire of wanting to be exactly like Jalen Rose, I shaved my head, I wore black shoes and black socks......and shot and played basketball with my left hand. This was far from what went on at UNLV, for example, and they weren't paid like the Fab Five 2 was - not even close. I won't ever forget those guys.
We don't know who got what, which is part of the problem. And I highly doubt Jalen just got "pocket money." Michigan generally doesn't let their athletes starve. And if you want pocket money, you can do what Mike Martin did and work for a living. I've never accepted the "poor exploited athlete" defense. And saying everyone everywhere does it is the kind of argument we mock when OSU trots it out. We hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Would I like to see the banners and be reminded of the victories? Yes. But when I think of the Fab Five, the wins aren't what comes to mind. The first thing I think of is the long twilight following their fall. Nothing, no manner of success in a season, is worth what happened to our basketball program. "Never Forget" really must be our mantra, because I never want to see a second decade of darkness.
All we can do is assume, but I didn't see well paid kids when I saw footage on the documentary, and I saw the cars .. didn't see one NEW car or anything, and I don't know how you get - NEVER FORGET - and, because I never want to see a second decade of darkeness. This implies that I am looking forward to this, which is a stupid assumption. You can remember the players, and what they did for the game ... and not go through it all again, thank you very much. Who wants that, huh?
Did you realistically think that a documentary produced by Jalen Rose was going to portray him and his classmates as a bunch of cheaters? If they had nice rides, he wasn't going to put that in.
I agree..but i just feel like saying Buhh Humbug
That is all.
What the hell is wrong with you people?! Mary Sue Coleman did what she had to do at the time and is sticking to her guns because she's offended that Chris Webber won't apologize. Well, good for him. He gets nothing but venom from crazy Michigan alums who I guarantee never had it half as bad financially as the kid did in college before he declared. Y'all can believe what you want, but I think most of the information available points to Chris never getting his "big payout" until he'd already declared for the draft. Once you do that, aren't you already ineligible? If so, cut him some slack! I don't care about $20 here or there to get a pizza or go to a movie. You can say that "all monetary gifts are equally wrong" to the NCAA, but I don't care. This kids did something that a Michigan team has yet to repeat. Hell, has there even been a team that went to the championship two times in a row since then? Florida, maybe? The Fab Five should be remembered with happiness, not bitterness. Blame Fisher all you want for allowing the BIG money to start flowing after the FF left. Oh, that's right, we root for Fisher at SDSU like he had nothing to do with Michigan's dark period. Good Lord. I loved the Fab Five then and I love them now as a memory.
Your personal feelings for the Fab Five are irrelevant. You have to pick your battles. What is gained from putting the banners back up? In my view, nothing. What are the negatives associated with putting them back up as they pertain to the credibility and perceived integrity of the school and athletic department? Well, if you need someone to answer that for you, I’m afraid we will never be in agreement.
Are you suggesting that the Fab Five, not the players/scumbags who came after them, were the ones who forced the banners down? The egregious sins came from those who rode the coattails of the Fab Five. Those banners were earned legitimately. You want to remove what the teams after them did? Fine. I am still of the opinion based on the information available, that the Fab Five were all eligible and rightfully so when they fought their way to the Finals two years in a row.
If you absolutely believe Chris Webber was an eligible student-athlete for both of Michigan's Final Four appearances during his time at Michigan, it's clear to me you have no grip of reality, and I would hope you would refrain from acting like you hold any form of valid opinion on this issue.
It's one thing to think the banners should go back up. It's quite another to completely discredit the central (and universally accepted) facet of this scandal. Chris Webber ceased being an eligible student-athlete the second his parents accepted a hotel room from Ed Martin. Period, end of story.
I'd love for you to find the section in the NCAA handbook that mentions a booster paying for a parent's hotel room. I just read through the eligibility section and there is nowhere in there that would support your argument for Webber being ineligible. If you find it, point it out to me so that I may become also enlightened.
Seriously, though. I know he was the fall guy and he got money. However, I was under the impression that all took place after the second Final Four appearance.
The part where a booster cannot give improper benefits to a player or his family?
That's NCAA 101 right there. If you don't believe it exists, and if you are under the impression Ed Martin's relationship with Chris Webber magically started after the 2nd Final Four, then it's obvious you're completely out of touch with reality, have never read any of the official reports produced by the NCAA investigation, and did not follow the years of press this story received.
I'm done arguing with you, because it's fundamentally clear you are not just someone who wants the banners back up, but additionally someone who is incredibly poorly informed and/or living in a fantasy world.
Ok, someone's a little grumpy over the whole thing. First off, I did follow what was going on, I've read the book on the Fab Five by Albom, etc. I still was under the impression that the money that ultimately got him hammered most likely happened AFTER the 2nd Final Four appearance. I know that Martin was there since high school, so I'm not saying he never got anything at all. Anyway, it seems I've upset you, so I'll stop. I know it was the start of a dark time, and many people are very strongly opinionated on this issue, so I'll just leave it at that. I think the banners were earned without competitive advantage and, maybe you're right, maybe that's delusional.
Out of curiosity, are you willing to give guys like Reggie Bush and the OSU players the same kind of benefit of the doubt you're giving Webber here?
Anyway, it doesn't really make sense. Once Webber declared for the NBA draft, he didn't need to take money from a sleazebag like Martin. He could sign all the endorsement contracts he wanted. Why would he forego Martin's money for two years and then suddenly take it when he had no need?
Chris Webber went to a private high school. He had his tuition, housing, and dining hall food completely paid for. He knew he was going to be making millions of dollars in just a few years. Oh man, how much it would suck to be in that financial situation...
Being a college student paying his own way through every part of college I have absolutely no sympathy for these "broke athletes." Its not like they couldn't afford to take loans like the rest of us when they knew they were going to be able to pay them back no problem when that million dollar NBA contract rolled in.
Chris Webber is the son of an auto worker and teacher, a pretty average middle class kid.
"has there been a team that went to the championship 2x since then"
heard of Butler?
You lost all credibility by saying that Coleman wouldn't put the banners back up because she was offended by Webber's lack of an apology. I'd like to see your source on that. My opinion is that she was deeply embarassed by the university's role in the scandal and she's not interested in doing anything to promote that era. I don't think an apology from Chris Webber would change her mind one bit.
I'd bet that the fans on this board that celebrate Fisher's work at SDSU are the same ones who want the banners back up. By the same token, I doubt very few of us who don't want those banners back up now have been able to root for Fisher.
Citing Albom's book on the Fab Five was really funny, by the way.
As the posts below show, your understanding of Chris Webber's role in the Ed Martin scandal is poorly informed. And your argument that the NCAA rules don't proscribe a booster from paying a student-athlete's family members is simply wrong. See, e.g., the Reggie Bush scandal. I blame Steve Fisher as much as I blame Chris Webber; Fisher let Ed Martin get close to the program despite Perry Watson telling Fisher that Martin was bad news.
Also, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 3 teams that have gone to back-to-back championship games since the Fab Five did it--and one that went to 3 straight title games:
The Fab Five's two Final Four runs occurred during my junior and senior years at Michigan. I went to the Sweet Sixteen games in Lexington in 1992 and the Final Four games in New Orleans in 1993. Those were two of the most memorable weekends of my 4 years at Michigan. Unfortunately, those banners should never be displayed due to Steve Fisher's and Chris Webber's misconduct. You can cherish your individual memories of the Fab Five and still recognize that those banners should never be hung in Crisler.
Butler went to two championships in a row not teo years ago, just saying....
Lets see, Webber ended up getting run on a laundry list of charges, including lying to a federal grand jury (the icing on the cake).
The feds also found money orders from Martin to Traylor in one of their raids. White was also charged (but those charges were later dropped after he cooperated fully with the FBI). Other players were also called before court.
Then of course you have Taylor and Traylor in the SUV (with high school recruit Cleaves and Martin) returning from the party featuring drugs, booze, and strippers.
If Martin hadn't died and the FBI had time to grill him, I hate to think what they'd have found. Nothing good to say the least.
No banners, ever. No association with them, ever. They're one of the most shameful periods of our athletic history ever. Yost's racism is likely the worse, but this one is solidly in the top five.
And...those players didn't earn the banners in question. Unless you're suggesting that the Fab Five, not Taylor, Traylor, Bullock, etc. were doing the same and just didn't get caught?
They can hang the banners at their houses and wear their rings on their own time. They disgraced our house and should not be welcome in it.
This was not money to put food on the table for their families or pay for their grandmother's medical treatment. This was taking cash ($37k and up) from a guy who ran a gambling ring. This was taking cars from a guy who ran a gambling ring. This was going to parties featuring drugs thrown by a guy who ran a gambling ring.
Think about the level of the scandal, the FBI was kicking down doors over this. This wasn't some "The NCAA yells at you for a bit and you miss the playoffs for a few years". This was "the federal government is here, and they're pissed off" level of scandal. That kind of reaction doesn't happen over boosters giving "pocket money" and the like. People who take part in gambling rings that reach the level of FBI raids have no place in Michigan lore or our sporting venues.
Again...are you talking about Jalen, Chris, Juwan, Ray and Jimmy? Or the OTHERS...?
Webber, Rose, Howard, Jackson, King.
Webber's crimes are covered above. Rose was called for the grand jury for recieving money, although less amounts than the others called, he was still implicated though. That's 40% of the Fab Five implicated in ties to Martin and his whole ring. So yes I'm talking about the Fab Five. We know Martin ties back to the program to 1989, we know he had ties to at least 40% of the Fab Five, and we know he had ties to the program after them. With that kind of involved you dump the era. If 40% of a group is ineligble, the group itself doesn't get to be eligible.
I know who the Fab Five are. The crimes you were listing were, with the exception of your mention of Webber, all from post-FF players. Damn, we've got some angry posters in here tonight.
To this day I still think it is fishy that Cleaves was in that SUV.
I LOVE the Fab Five...I believe they were victim to a system, I think they were great for college basketball...I will always side with them.
However, what happened, happened. Time doesn't change that. Welcome them back, even put their faces and pictures in wall murals and other projects. But no to the banners. If the NCAA doesn't acknowledge them, we shouldn't either. The fact is...it didn't count.
But I should still see clips, faces, pictures, etc. when I walk around Crisler.
The games didn't count...but don't tell me for a second that they didn't exist.
I agree with all of this, well said.
They didn't count, but hey did exist .. as do the memories.
I was contemporary with the Fab 5 and I relished in the phenomenon at A2. I hung out the window of my friends East Quad Window on the 4th Floor and watched probably the greatest pickup game of all time. As a University - except for those racist alums who were skeptical of even Cazzie Russell - we embraced them and profited. I was proud. It doesn't make the actions of the crestfallen C-Webb (my brother went to DCD a couple years behind Chris and saw firsthand the systematic graft) who was on the take from like 7th grade excusable or justify putting up the banners back up. But all the palace intrigue that was exposed after-the-fact has little to do with the incredibly fun, wild and exciting "era" on campus at the time.
I agree that the banners shouldn't be hung and that we should be overly contrite on account of the extrapolating negativity that eventually comatized the program for a decade plus. But aside from Webber, whose corruption is a far more nuanced (pre-dating the U by years) occurrence than is trivialized on most boards, the basketball was a blast: Crisler was transformed into a madhouse and the memories are real and something I'll always appreciate. Rightly so, younger posters see this as maybe overly nostalgic on the part of some of us oldies as they have really only experienced the Fab 5 as a dark historical footnote: "Scandal, something, something, Webber unapologetic, cash, something, something..." and I get that. But I will always love 'em. Go Blue!
The only way they go back up is if Webber comes forth and talks openly and honestly about it. That way, they can clear the air, and allow for forgiveness. And eventually Webber would be welcomed back, and they'd be able to find a way to properly honor the Fab Five, be it by raising a few banners or doing something else, like a monument or something at Crisler.
That will probably never happen. Because Webber will never talk.
If they point shaved they never come out. If they took "pizza money" put them back up. They did neither and the university had some culpability too. That said, I am a " put them I the hallway" guy. I think that is fair and balanced approach, plus incidentally not bad for recruiting to be able to talk about the most exciting thing besides the running Rebs to hit college basketball in most our lifetimes.
I don't understand the "banners go back up if webber comes clean or apologizes crowd". One, he doesn't need to come clean, he got busted. Two, we always over emphasize the need for apologies and then still hate the apologizer even afterwards since, like most apologies....it would be inadequate (see Ozzie guillen). That said, I don't think it's even necessary. The rest of guys who acted with integrity and have rehabilitated themselves with the school and UofM community deserve recognition. Leave c Webb home for the event if he wants to continue to play the victim here. Seems we should be allowed to separate our bitterness towards the dude from the overall love and desire to fondly remember the highpoints of the era/ larger group of good guys. I am ready.
of taking them out of storage and putting them someplace where people can see them... But not in Crisler, with the legitimate Final Four banners. I think they need to be up to serve as a reminder of both past glories... and the price of disobeying the NCAA. Another idea that would probably be harder to pull off well, might be to dedicate a home game a year, where they bring the banners out during half time and say something both about how well those teams played, but also something explicint reminding people why they aren't hanging with the rest of the banners. But I think that's very hard to do tastefully and harder to do tastefully in a different way each year.
The Fab Five happened. All of it, the good, the bad and the ugly. I think it's ridiculous to hide the banners away forever and try to forget all of that ever happened or to only ever talk about it as what a bad thing they did. Because for all of that, they won a lot of games and earned the banners with their play on the court. But I also think that you have to treat them somewhat like the tainted goods they are. Accept the glory, but also accept the blame. I think there is a way to be proud of the accomplishment without condoning the actions.
bringing the banners back once a year to say "something explicint reminding people why they aren't hanging with the rest of the banners" would be a very awkward event to witness. I could see them using the banners as an example while speaking with the team at the beginning of the season.
The documentary made me a little sick when the players were complaining about "not getting their cut" in jersey sales. Someone should have explained to them why they were at Michigan. 1) Path to the NBA 2) Get an education, be a part of something really special (NCAA Basketball), have a great time and have a guaranteed job upon graduation. You don't take money.
Win them the right way.... Let's put some up coach B
We, as fans, can't ride our high horses about other schools that cheat and then make excuses for Chris Webber. If we do, we're no better than those we profess to detest.
Webber did exactly what Ohio State's football team did under Tressel. He cheated, lied about it, and never admitted to anything that the FBI hadn't already found. He has never demonstrated anything close to contrition. Instead, he has acted as though he was entitled to cheat, and that those who would hold him responsible for his actions are the "bad guys."
Worst of all, Chris Webber made it "cool" to take Ed Martin's money. If Webber hadn't taken it, neither would the next group of players. What Chris Webber did was against everything the University of Michigan stands for.
The bottom line: Chris Webber did exactly what we make fun of SEC football players for doing. He is the biggest stain in the history of University of Michigan athletics. His transgressions caused all of us as fans to suffer through ten years of basketball hell.
Banners from the time he cheated should be burned.
to kids when they were in high school. It's not Webber's fault that other kids took money too
You can't really expect that the Fab Five will want to be welcomed back, if some of their primary achievements are not hanging from the rafters for all to see.
Not a fan of MSC. Not a fan of less than forthright athletics, either. So ... I guess they can stay where they are.
220am and posting on mgoblog. I do not have a problem. I can quit anytime.
However, I couldn't care less about C-Webb's side of the story and I don't feel like he owes anyone an apology. The university and College basketball gained 50 times more than anything he could have recieved from Ed Martin or anyone else.
Posted on the same board that rips into Pryor an Tressel on a daily basis. Call it "The Michigan Difference."
Otherwise it isn't happening anytime soon
I remember Jalen on twitter talking about how their numbers should be retired in 2013. That'd be better than nothing.
For what, exactly? They never won anything. Unless we're going to retire everyone's jersey from this year, and from all appearences, a whole host of jerseys from teams in the very near future.
Final Four 1993
Thank God for MSC.
You don't celebrate the greatest embarrassment to the university in any way, shape, or form.
I loved the Fab Five. Lived and died with every win and loss. Fact is, though, they underachieved during the regular season, never won a Big 10 Championship, and while their 2 tournament runs were epic (especially the win over Kentucky) in the end they didn't win anything. Even as a kid I could tell I was seeing a group of supremely talented basketball players who didn't bring 100% every game, didn't really focus until tournament time. So this group, who I loved, never won anything, and while winning nothing contributed to bringing down our basketball program. Makes me feel pretty conflicted when I think about the Fab 5. I still love 'em, but I don't want to see their banners in our house. This is MIchigan, fergodsakes. Not the SEC. Not Ohio. So I remember the good stuff, accept the punishment for the bad, and live with it.
Put them up in a display case in Crisler Center. With posters describing the team, the run, the issues and the vacating. There's no reason we can't celebrate the on court accomplishments while showing the errors that happened. No need to hide our history, put it on display and learn from it.
This. I'd support this anytime. There's no denying the greatness, both good and bad, of this era and I think it's something to be honored.
I've put forward a similar notion previously. The new Crisler Center will have plenty of display area. Putting the banners in a display case and explaining the history, maybe with clips about the banners in the Fab Five documentary, would be a good idea. People should understand the history so they can debate it.
What's to debate?
Should players get a cut of the revenue generated by their personal jersey sales? I see a lot of 16s running around and Denard doesn't get a dime from that.
Should the NCAA be able to own the marketing rights to your likeness for life? This is currently in courts as many (including Bo Jackson IIRC) are suing the NCAA for selling trading cards with their likenesses.
Why not allow the Olympic model in college athletics? that hasn't tainted amatureism.
Can the NCAA justify the billions that it makes on March Madness while regulating if student athletes can be provided cream cheese or jelly on their bagels?
There's no reason we can't celebrate the on court accomplishments while showing the errors that happened. No need to hide our history, put it on display and learn from it.
No reason? What about the fact that we did all that with an ineligible player? Look, I loved the Fab Five. But Webber was retroactively ruled ineligible by the NCAA. It makes no sense for us to celebrate anything he did. Would you expect USC to have a display case honoring Reggie Bush?
But if USC had a display case with the BCS trophy and a plaque that said something to the effect of "We had one of the best teams in the nation, but off field trangressions tarnished the university and lead to sanctions" along with information about the team, facts, why everything was vacated, etc. I'd support that.
It's not like the banners and games don't exist. Why not display them with their full history, good and bad?
IMO putting them up in the playing area (next to the 1989 banners) would be celebrating them and stupid. Hiding them in a library and pretending that they don't exist is also stupid. I think a display case is a good middle ground that can tell the truth.
Actually, in the eyes of the NCAA, those games do not exist. If we had known all along that Webber would be ruled ineligible, banners would have never been made. Given what we know now, we should just destroy the banners - continuing to store them is pointless.
You're looking at this with your heart and not your head. Hey, I loved them too. But Webber was ruled ineligible, which invalidates what the team accomplished. I don't want USC to do anything to honor Reggie Bush and OSU to do anything to honor Pryor or Clarett, and it would be hypocritical of me to turn around and say that it's somehow OK for us to recognize the accomplishments of a player who took even more money that they did.
Bottom line: if Webber wanted to have a legacy, he shouldn't have taken the money from Martin.
The games happened. It is invalid - vacated even, but they still happened. You're saying a constant reminder to play by the rules wouldn't be a good thing in a display case?
Well maybe all the season ticket holders should get a refund from the games they paid for during that era.
with all the dirty programs in the NCAA today and nothing is done about it why should Mich continue to honor the NCAA's rulings. Ohio gets away with everything they want and don't even get a slap. Yeah, take away a couple of sholarships but Meyer still signs as many guys as every other school. So what is the penalty again? And Mary Sue Coleman has proven over and over that she doesn't give a crap about athletics.
I don't think she doesn't give a "crap" about athletics, I just think she's inept in dealing with athletics. Can't talk to Ferentz because she didn't want to look like she was "poaching". That's smart, put your own self-interest in front of the school which pays you an absolutely disgusting amount of money to institute smoking bans and other irrelevant policies. She should stick to her six-figure "part-time" job with Johnson and Johnson.
Not a fan of the "college administration" industry.
Dumbest post of the thread. I am very sure that MSC understands the story.
Probably the dumbest post I have seen in quite a while.
I'm fairly certain that MSC knows far, far more about this story than you. She was in charge when UM self-imposed penalties and negotiated with the NCAA. I doubt any of us know even a small fraction as much about the case.
You in particular seem poorly informed. Federal prosecutors alleged that Webber gave Martin money after turning pro as a partial repayment for money he took while at UM and in HS.
Nice language though, really classes up the board.
When one of the mods runs across this one...
JFC, man. I know we are a bit loose with the prose on this board, but a C-Bomb?!?
I think MSC is a pretty good president. That's just my opinion, man.
is right on this one thing. As much as it hurts me, leave the banners down. However, it is time to bring the Fab Five back home. Kids make mistakes. Time to move on.
Hopefully she'll handle this better than the coaching search. Why don't college Presidents stick to.... whatever they're supposed to "do"? Gee and others have proven that bureaucratic nerds aren't always well suited to handle athletics.
saying the rest of the Fab 5 shouldn't be punished for what Chris Webber did...
Where do you draw the line on these things? Should we make a rule saying if only 20% cheated then it's ok?
Were all of OSU's players cheating and getting SUVs and tats? Probably not.
For those saying Ed Martin paid players that went to Duke and all these other schools in the country or the age-old defense that John Wooden did it also - this is NOT a valid excuse.
Coleman wants to hold the university to a higher standard and I commend her for that. The Ed Martin scandal wasn't practicegate where we were stretching for 20 mins. We committed serious violations and we took those banners down for a reason.
The legacy of the fab 5 will always exist in our hearts and minds. To me, that is good enough.
I know i'm in the minority in this thread but I'd like to see them up. I have extremely fond memories of those two years and miss being the epicenter of the college basketball universe.
I am confused how we can hang the Final Four banners if, in official NCAA records, they didn't happen?
I love Jalen Rose and the fab five but the banners cannot go up. It ,akes little sense to hang banners for accomplishments that nobody is proud of and the NCAA doesnt even recognize.
were the games that led to those banners invalidated? They were, weren't they? For me that's a reason not to put them up. And (following this logic/if true) when you discuss the way that other untainted players lost out you say "Exactly. That's why the actions were harmful. They hurt the team, the U," etc. And we can't be party to some kind of sentimental turnaround that says "Now we're going to celebrate that."
This doesn't mean you don't forgive and forget, or welcome Jalen back, etc. But it sure would be a reason not to put the banners back up.
I am a huge C Webb fan, and fan of the Fab V--I adored those guys. But that doesn't mean you put the banners back up. Hell, put the Fab Five's pictures up in the rotunda, etc. But unless I'm missing something, not the banners.