Marell Evans per facebook
though i suppose QB might be particularly reliant on coaching.
As a lot of people used to call him good ole 4 loss LLLLoyd. How about this? I thought Lloyd could have always done better then he did if he wasn't such a conservative coach. He had teams that were way too talented to have ended up with 3 or 4 losses. That drove me equally as nuts as these past 2 years. The last 2 years suck,but I wasn't exactly thrilled with losing 3 or 4 games a year either. They haven't been the true definition of elite for a long, long time. The program was very good at best, not elite though. I was happy that they went outside of the box with the RR hire. The whole run, left, run left, 4 yard slant on 3 and 8 offense was getting old too. I was happy to see something new. I thought the first year was going to be rough, and I was a little discouraged about last year, I was expecting better, but I did see progress. The thing I hold out hope for is the guy says he needs guys to fit his system, although I would hope the system could have a little flexibility with what we have until it is all systems go, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt to get a recruiting class through school before I am heading down to AA with torches a blazing. Only a hand full of "his guys" have seen the field. I am curious to see, and I feel he deserves the shot to have 22 of "his guys" starting out on the field based on his previous success. We are too far in the process to have a redo now, we may as well see what he can do with a whole recruiting cycle. I hope this year wasn't as painful as the last 2 though.
Magnus, indeed the past few years have been "fucked up". But did Rodriguez do the "fuck[ing] up" as Evan's states? I think most would agree that he has played a role in it, but to believe that everything that has happened the past two years are entirely Rodriguez's fault is a bit absurd. Note: I don't think you think that. But if think Rodriguez fucked up the program, then you must be blaming most of the past two years on him.
At this point, I think things like an exceptionally depleted roster put Rodriguez below the 50% threshold for accountability for the tailspin. Thus, I find it hard to say at this point in time that Rodriguez "fucked up" the program.
The program is fucked up for sure, but does the majority of the blame currently lay at the feet of Rodriguez or other extenuating factors? Your call, but I think that's where the discrepancy is coming from in your thinking vs. many of the other posters.
There are extenuating circumstances but
a) I think there are numerous coaches out there who would NOT have gone 3-9 and/or 5-7 with what Carr left behind.
b) Rodriguez and his staff brought on these NCAA violations, which is more egregious to me than the losing.
So since we're speaking in a lot of hypotheticals here, would [insert some other coach's name here] going 7-5 and 7-5 the past two seasons AND avoiding major violations have prevented people from saying Michigan's football program was "fucked up"? In other words, would Marell Evans have posted this/would we be talking about this mentality if someone other than Rodriguez had been hired?
You could make an argument either way, but it's not unfathomable for someone to blame the "fucked up" program on Rodriguez.
Indeed. But as you point out, I think we're dealing with a matter of perception. There's way too many "what ifs" to say that Rodriguez is definitely or definitely not at fault for the fucked up nature of the program. You can probably make valid arguments either way, and so this whole thread seems rather pointless.
Anyway, who cares about this kid's opinion?
but I have read every post in this thread and I haven't seen him say anywhere, that he thinks the program is "f'ed up". From what I have read he is saying he can understand how someone would think that, but hasn't said those are his thoughts.
"There's way too many "what ifs" to say that Rodriguez is definitely or definitely not at fault for the fucked up nature of the program. You can probably make valid arguments either way"
You acknowledge above that you can make an arguement either way, yet fail to realize that is exactly what Magnus (and others on this thread) are doing, just not on the same side of the debate the majority are.
I don't think it is a bad thing necessarily, to have someone play the devils advocate once in a while.
anyone say it's surprising. Look at the context of the program within which the violations occurred. I work hard when I don't achieve excellence. That is pretty much all that is being said. Herron was dumb. RR was dumber. But I understand what went on there.
The ramifications are serious... especially wrt the Fab 5 era. I'm hoping that doesn't come to bite us...again. Recruiting is crucial but the crucible for recovery is ready for heating. The next 2 years...yes 2 years...will tell us whether we need a new plan. We need to stick to the plan in the meantime and talk about the team we have. That is the Michigan way (though I support your right to discourse in this country - I would prefer the best interests of Michigan are served.)
We are in sad times, indeed -- sad, that I find myself increasingly on Magnus's side of the argument. What treacherous times we've inherited.
Nonetheless, it is ridiculous to sit here speculating on counterfactuals and comparing records and such. Consider only one thing:
Have you been impressed with the team's performance on the field?
or, to put another way:
Adjusting for talent (e.g. 2008 QB situation), do you think RR has gotten the most out of his players?
Personally, there are very few times I have. Watching the old highlight reels brings it home for me -- despite my constant complaints of sloppy tackling and corners lining up 10-yards off the LOS during my college years -- watching those old teams just HAMMER their opponents and compete against solid teams, win or lose, paints a stark contrast from what I've seen in RR's tenure. There's something that seems lost that I can only sum up with "prowess." Maybe it's just foggy nostalgia-goggles. Who knows.
I've not jumped ship yet. But the results have something to say. Who or what is to blame? We can't be sure, but from my perspective "management" is of primary importance with regard to coaching. Is it really unreasonable to questions RR's ability to manage a team (including the coaching staff)? This whole compliance fiasco, though it seems arbitrary and capricious, has dispelled my willingness to defend RR like a fanatic defends his Crazy Mud God. Not anymore.
The rhetoric on this board would be downright alarming, if only any of it mattered a whit.
How old are these "old highlight reels" you speak of? Carr's teams were consistently criticized for playing to the level of their opposition. Even against MAC opponents, we tended to turn in sluggish performances and let them hang around well into the second half. The 1999 team - which featured an NFL Hall of Fame QB and a ton of other talent - played nine close games out of 12.
Any game from the Carr or Moeller era. Yes, there are plenty of ugly ones.
But the last two years have yielded games a lot uglier than anything I've seen in the 90's or 2000's. I'm aware of the many underlying considerations. I'm just saying -- there is room for rational and constructive criticism at this point. No need for this board to turn into the e-quivalent* of Fox News.
*see what I did, there?
it's academic to argue a different course at this point. Sadly I don't think the OC or DC were ready to step up into Lloyd's shoes. Once the decision was made...keeping Mallett was not an option either. The rest has been well documented.
In hindsight Vance Bedford should have been kept, I don't think you could have kept many more without undermining the fundamental change that was mandated.
We lost the Horror, and got smushed by Oregon and the Buckeyes are killing us year in year out - that was the reality post LC that drove the reality of the last two. I don't think too many wrong decisions were made. The final song has yet to be sung wrt the new regime.
I wasn't saying anything about keeping LC or such.
My argument is that, given what we've seen on the field the last two years as well as other issues (e.g. compliance debacle), there is room to question RR's managerial skills. That is: Despite being dealt a bad hand, he may not be getting the most out of his players. I don't think LC was getting the most out of his 2007 squad, either (except the bowl game); the same can be said for a number of individual games throughout prior seasons. But it is still something that Michigan fans should expect from their coaches.
And yes, you're right. The final verdict is not in on RR. And it's not even about wins and losses (IMO), it's about being competitive against top teams. For example, we were more competitive against OSU in 2009 than 2007, so +1 for RR. He hasn't done all bad and he still has his chance to turn the program around. But to sit here and make excuses for every single thing under the sun, and to treat any criticism like it's heresy... frankly, such behavior does not suit the Michigan elite.
We're better than that. We're better than letting the Freep guide our discourse. And it is doing just that -- the defensiveness on this board and its obsession with the Freep is indication that the Freep is winning. They want to polarize the fanbase and create controversy, because that makes money for them. And here we are, complete reactionaries who make an excellent stereotype for the Freep to use as they try to create an alluring narrative of this football program.
Not every criticism of RR is fueled by the Freep's mudslinging. If you turn a blind eye to the negatives or make excuses for everything, I don't see how your stance is any more legitimate than the pitchfork-wielding anti-RR cadre who turn a blind eye to the positives.
Hmmm...maybe. As you say I don't think they are staked on anything but making money from ultimately. Certainly truth is not the goal.
Am I defending RR? Yeah I guess I am. I honestly think compliance issues of this magnitude are common at most every school. We're just experiencing a heightened focus for a variety of reasons. Not to mention the poor performance that preceded this whole course of events.
Clearly Herron was over the line. RR was not on top of that. RR is culpable. (as I said above) Michigan is vulnerable especially post Fab 5 probation. (as I said above) This could be very serious - if the NCAA wants to go there. I think that gives this an honest shake. I'm not turning a blind eye to the negatives.
I do see the positives. We did sign a 6 year deal with RR. These violations will not get worse. Brandon has said they do not rise to the level that negates that contract. We need to deal with this and move on.