Marell Evans per facebook
So the lack of player development WHILE RODRIGUEZ HAS BEEN COACH is Lloyd Carr's fault?
I'm not here to bash Rodriguez. He's been dealt a tough hand. I think he can win, and I'm hoping he does.
But this whole "Let's blame Lloyd Carr for global warming" mentality is beyond ridiculous.
Yeah, RichRod should be blamed for all the walkons that were beating out Lloyd's juniors and seniors. But since you think there has been a lack of player development, which unbelievable talent do you think could have been drafted or drafted much higher if not for RichRod's horrible development of his talent?
Plus, we all know global warming is the space emperor's fault for kicking a hole in the ozone layer.
I don't know. There's been a lot of attrition and some guys we never saw play much. I mean, Carson Butler had a lot of talent but couldn't earn playing time under Rodriguez. I know he was an asshole, but he was a talented asshole. Lloyd had a knack for developing wide receivers. Perhaps Mathews, Clemons, or Hemingway would have been studs if Carr were still here. Maybe O'Neill would have stuck around and Carr's offense would have fit him better.
I don't know. It's impossible to tell.
So you don't know and it is impossible to tell.....unless you read your own last post in which you said it was RichRod's fault talent wasn't being developed.
You love leading questions, don't you?
I said you can't blame the lack of player development (i.e. very few star players appearing) on Lloyd Carr, who hasn't been the coach for about 2 years and 3 months now.
There might be other reasons that our players haven't performed well (attrition, etc.), but blaming Carr for that stuff is somewhat ridiculous.
No, I love watching you say that there has been a lack of player development under RichRod and when asked which players you are talking about that weren't developed, you say you don't know and it's impossible to tell. I understand you can't blame everything on Lloyd Carr, but even if I were generous enough to give you the 4 guys you specifically mentioned and I throw in Mallett and Boren, you are still looking at the same number of drafted players in the following 4 years as in Lloyd's last 2 years at HC (I left out O'neill because he transferred to Western - that would be like saying Marrel Evans might have made the NFL if he hadn't tranferred to Hampton or wherever the fuck he went). The defense was one of the worst in UM's history in 07 (which is the reason we had 5 offensive players drafted into the NFL and still lost to a DII school, got stomped by Oregon, and almost gave up the game against Florida) and that same shitty defense was back in 08 to suck balls again. If you can't see that the team had already started to crumble before RichRod took over, I don't know what to tell you.
Debord's predictable offense got us to 11-2 and 9-4 in the seasons prior to Rodriguez coming on the scene.
Actually, it was more the abandonment of DeBord's offense in the 4th quarter of many games that allowed us to win. There were many games under Carr in which we fell behind double-digits as we "established the run" against a stacked defense, only to whip out the "scoring offense" in the 4th quarter and escape.
The "fuck up" started before RR got here
So, the "fuck up" started with Moeller? Or were you saying something about Carr?
You don't think roster issues had far more to do with the record the past two years than the performance of the coaching staff? I would think you would grasp better than anyone the task Rodriguez and Co. have faced the last two years and see the clear signs that things are headed in the right direction.
I certainly don't think Coach Carr was responsible for the tailspin (transition/attrition drastically amplified underlying issues) but he certainly left the program in worse shape than he found it.
"He certainly left the program in worse shape than he found it."
This is patently false. Lloyd Carr took over a team that had been 8-4 in consecutive seasons. He "left it" with 11-2 and 9-4 seasons.
Somewhere in the middle, he added a national championship and a Heisman winner.
His winning percentage was .753, which is virtually the same as Moeller's .758.
Carr raised Michigan's all-time winning percentage.
Carr produced better NFL players than Moeller.
I believe Michigan took over the all-time victories title during Carr's years, but I could be wrong.
So actually, no, Carr didn't leave the program worse off than it was when he took over. Not even close.
Viking dude, I'm partially with you (really). RichRod can't be isolated from what has happened here.
But, please look at the NFL (or close) haul from the '05, '06, and '07 classes.
Maybe Lloyd didn't "leave the cupboard bare." But, as others have noted, I think it's fair to say that it was somewhat bare when he left.
For the sake of simplicity, look at the QB position in '08. It's the worst I've even seen. (I can't remember anything before the mid-'80s.)
Serious question: What do you think Lloyd's record would have been with the '08 team (same roster, same number of transfers).
probably would've gone 6-6 at very best in 2008, but more probably 5-7. This is assuming Mallett transferred. I believe Lloyd would've won the Toledo game and probably the Purdue game as well. It's really tough to find other possible victories with that 2008 squad.
I don't know what Lloyd's record would have been with that roster. I do think it would have been BETTER than 3-9. In fact, there's no doubt in my mind that it would have been better, because there's no historical evidence to suggest otherwise.
But that's just a giant intellectual leap, since some of those transfers wouldn't have happened if Lloyd had remained as coach. I honestly can't give you a more specific answer than "better."
Carr inherited Charles Woodson, Tom Brady, and a full roster with countless other future NFL players. He also never won a major bowl game after those guys left campus. Rodriguez inherited Graham, Warren, two late round picks last year, and the ghost of Ryan Mallett.
I didn't criticize Carr's record at UM, but to me it seems crazy to think he passed along a program in as good of shape to move forward as the one he received.
Rodriguez inherited Adrian Arrington, Mario Manningham, and Justin Boren, too. Two of those guys are in the NFL right now, and one is likely headed there soon.
You cannot blame Lloyd Carr for all the players who transferred AFTER RODRIGUEZ WAS HIRED. That's preposterous.
No, but can you blame Rodriguez either? In Boren's case you probably could, but I don't think Rodriguez ran off Arrington and Manningham. I don't think staying was much of an option for those two, regardless of the coach.
I think those two were gone (to get paid in the NFL, not to transfer or because they didn't like the new staff) no matter what. If you've heard otherwise, I'm all ears but neither seemed like the collegiate type and both saw an opportunity to go to the league.
Adding Boren to that list does not tip the scales in my opinion.
that's absurd as hell. in the very least, attrition should be expected as a result of a guard changing. c'mon. it's obvious and respectable that you want to side with the kid, but it's officially come at the expense of being fair to a guy who's been nothing but immensely respected and successful for 20 years.
obvs. it was under his comment last night too...
"So actually, no, Carr didn't leave the program worse off than it was when he took over. Not even close."
If you go by the amount of talent on the roster, then YES, he did. inarguably.
So now it's Lloyd's fault that probably our best offensive lineman (Boren) transferred to OSU, that Arrington and Manningham entered the draft early, and that Ryan Mallett left town?
Yeah. You're right. If you subtract all the guys that left once Rodriguez was hired, then I guess Lloyd Carr is to blame for the roster's shortages.
You can't be serious.
Yes. I am right.
and
Yes. I am serious.
Even if all those guys had stayed (which seems highly unlikely even if Carr had not retired) it doesn't come close to what Carr inherited (two NFL starters at QB, a Heisman winner and probable NFL hall of famer, and the bulk of the 1997 roster).
FWIW, I'm trying to avoid talking about the roster here, because a) not all of Carr's recruits have matriculated and b) it's impossible to say who might have developed differently/better/worse under Carr than Rodriguez.
For example, Steve Threet might have developed into a good quarterback if he were given a few years to develop in an offense that fit him.
What I'm focusing on here is the overall success of the program, which matters more than individual accomplishments/talents, anyway.
Lloyd Carr was preceded by two 8-4 seasons, and started his career 9-4. Furthermore, the entire 1997 team might not have been recruited by him, but he coached them in 1995, 1996, and 1997. He deserves WAY more credit for their success than Moeller. Charlie Weis gets a bad rap around here for taking highly ranked recruits and turning them into a 6-6 team. So why are we bashing Carr for taking a recruiting class (of what caliber I don't know) and turning them into a 13-0 team? Development trumps recruiting every time.
Lloyd Carr ended his career with 11-2 and 9-4 seasons, and was followed by 3-9 and 5-7 seasons.
The program was worse BEFORE he took over, and it's been worse AFTER he left.
I suppose I am viewing program strength in terms of potential future performance rather than what has just happened. While Carr went 9-4 his final season, that team was losing Henne, Hart, Long, Crable, and (I think) Arrington and Manningham, so I don't view them as being at 9-4 in terms of program strength going forward, if that makes sense. I think the program was poised for a drop no matter what happened (though clearly the transition/departures, no matter who is to blame for them, exacerbated that situation immensely). Things hadn't been all that great for a while (1-6 against Tressel, no big bowl wins since 1999 season, Horror) and I didn't particularly see any reason to think they were going to improve in the near future. Even that extremely talented group of departing players had gone 0-4 against OSU. At the same time, I think Carr was handed a roster poised for big things and the results in his first five years on the job bore that out, though hindsight is 20-20 of course.
Carr had a lot of success in his career, but he never reached the same level he did with Moeller's players (two BCS bowl wins and a national title) in the 8 seasons after those guys all graduated (with the close loss to Texas as probably the high point nationally). Conversely, Rodriguez's record has and (I think most of us agree) will continue to improve the further he gets from the transition. If he doesn't win 9-10 games (at least) in 2011, I will be extremely disappointed and open to all criticism of his performance. If he goes no better than 1-6 against Tressel I will be furious. If he goes close to a decade before winning a major bowl then he probably wasn't the right guy for the job.
Until then, I think it is ridiculous and unfair for anyone to accuse him of "fucking up" the program considering the hand he was dealt and the predictably jarring nature of the transition.
here's a thought experiment. give the 2005 team Nick Sheridan at quarterback. the article i did here suggests that Sheridan was worth -2 wins compared to average, which puts the '05 team at 5-7. i bet if you start trading equivalent talent further than just Sheridan, you can get to 3 wins pretty easily.
and of course, that assumes we're looking at this as though the performance of these teams is in fact equal to true talent. i would be willing to bet that luck didn't actually cancel out and was more of a hindrance in '08/'09.
"I think it is ridiculous and unfair for anyone to accuse him of "fucking up" the program considering the hand he was dealt and the predictably jarring nature of the transition."
So who was in charge of the team when they incurred major violations? Because I'd guess that's part of what Evans is referring to.
First off, the school has yet to incur major violations, they've just been accused of them. Second, I personally view them as major violations in name only. Stretching a little too much and having QC guys too involved (especially when the rules have since changed to allow some of the activity cited in the allegation). I can certainly understand if that is what is bothering you, though.
As for Evans, however, I think his gripe comes purely from a wins-losses standpoint (especially since he lumped the basketball program into his statement). Coming from a guy who essentially quit on the team, school, and program (though it certainly may have been in his best interest to do so) is really annoying. This is why you see the negative reaction on here. If some UM dropout accused Mary Sue of "fucking up" the school, even if she had made mistakes on the job, I think you would see the exact same kind of response.
I think it's impossible to say that Evans was ONLY referring to the win-loss record when he said "fucked up." Maybe it's just as presumptuous to think that he meant both the allegations and the losses, but still...
When was the basketball team accused of violations?
take talent into consideration, then you can't make an argument.
Talented or not, there's no historical evidence to suggest that Carr would have gone 3-9 or 5-7. He never had a losing season or even a .500 season.
The roster for the last two years hasn't been great, but I'm confident that Carr would have done better than 3-9 or 5-7.
There also was no historical evidence to suggest Carr would have lost to Appalachian State w/ Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Jake Long, Adam Kraus, Mario Manningham, Adrian Arrington, Shawn Crable, Jamar Adams, et. al. on the roster, but he managed to find a way.
Lloyd, for some unbeknown reason, always seemed to lose to at least one really weak team per year. Regardless of the talent he had on his team he always made games that should have been blowouts, end in close games. Sometimes he came out on the losing ends of those games.
In short, I would say there is historical evidence that would suggest he could lose to a creampuff, while still putting together a 7-5 season or better.
I guess I'd be interested to know who all these "creampuffs" are that you're equating with losing to Appalachian State.
In 2006, Ball State played us pretty close. We came out ahead but they gave us a good scare ... those of us who saw it, anyway.
All I remember is Lloyd's teams constantly playing down to the level of their competition and sometimes losing games they should have easily won because of it.
I am not trying to bag on Carr, I truly admire and respect him, but at the same time, thought it was time for him to move on (just my opinion, which I know isn't shared by everyone).
I freely admit it was wrong of me to say he used to lose to "creampuffs", that wasn't accurate or the right word for what I was tying to say. We did, however, lose a number of games we should have won while Carr was here (at least we should have won them IME).
which is why the blog has gone to such great lengths to document the attrition issues that are in the very least partly Lloyd's fault. did you forget about the starting walk on quarterback, linebacker and safety?
You can't blame the attrition on Carr. You can blame it on the nebulous "coaching change" where some players just don't fit the new scheme/coaching staff. Or you can blame it on Rodriguez.
But is it Carr's fault that Threet transferred? Is it Carr's fault that Mallett transferred? Christian Wilson, a linebacker/tight end, had been committed to Michigan until Rodriguez got hired. John Wienke, a pro style quarterback, had been committed until then, too. Is it Carr's fault that Adrian Arrington, Michigan's next potential star wide receiver, left early for the NFL draft? Is it Carr's fault that Toney Clemons was forced into playing slot receiver and thus wanted out? Is it Carr's fault that Justin Boren wanted to leave? Is it Carr's fault that Dann O'Neill washed out and transferred to CMU because he was 6'8" and didn't fit the zone blocking scheme employed by Rodriguez? Is it Carr's fault that Artis Chambers, who was good enough to start in 2008, transferred to Ball State because he couldn't find a position in Shafer's defense?
Again, you can't blame all these things on Rodriguez (for example, he had no choice but to force SOMEONE into playing slot receiver), but you CERTAINLY can't blame them on Lloyd Carr.
and aside from a few questionable claims toward the end, it's obvious that neither Carr nor Rodriguez were responsible for the attrition mentioned. the program didn't get handed off to a Carr protege and, surprise, mass attrition was experienced. i really don't know what this has to do with the program being fucked up by Rodriguez. that's the claim you said was difficult to argue with. which it isn't.
and the attrition issue is separate entirely from the direction of the program under Carr, which was clearly slipping toward the end. i swear, it's like you forgot you have read mgo for the last half decade.
It's not that I forgot everything I've read on MGoBlog - it's that people continue piling things on Carr's shoulders that aren't his fault.
I agree that the program was slipping. I don't think it was a foregone conclusion that we would be 8-16 and be facing major violations, though. There's a large gap between 9-4 and where we are now.
Eh...I'm done arguing about what a 21-year-old kid said on his Facebook page.
"people"
and for that matter, most of the folks here, seem to have been pretty reasonable. no one here hates Lloyd Carr. mgo was a bastion of Carr support, even in the later years.
and if you're going to cite the NCAA stuff, can you at least use quotes for "major violations" ? no one thinks they're major, not even the NCAA.
but you're right insofar as i was projecting my beliefs onto the fanbase at large. i don't have a problem with what happened other than to say i'm pissed at the AD's office for not having their shit together.
One thing I want to point out here: It was Rodriguez's decision to start Sheridan. This is a mystery, because he was not as good a QB as Threet.
My guess is that he started Sheridan (as well as subbed Sheridan in, even when Threet was doing OK in some instances) as a "motivational" tool. That is, trying to get Threet to play better by ruffling his feathers, challenging his sense of self-worth, etc. Whatever the intent, the decision didn't work out too well in most cases.
Michigan won five consecutive Big Ten titles from 1988-92. We slumped a bit the next two seasons, but there was no reason to believe the program was headed downhill. Moeller recruited extremely well. You cannot possibly compare our program in 1994 (which was a preseason top 5 team, BTW) with our program in 2008.
What does a "preseason top 5" ranking have to do with anything? Preseason rankings mean absolutely nothing.
Regardless, the point is that the program was not "fucked up" and would most likely not be this "fucked up" if Carr would have continued as coach. I know Rodriguez installed his system and there were going to be some difficulties in the translation, etc., etc. I know all that. But Evans's point is defensible.
The 1994 team was a preseason top 5 squad that played what turned out to be the nation's toughest schedule (look it up) and went 8-4. It lost nailbiters to PSU and Colorado teams that finished 12-0 and 11-1, respectively. Basically, it was a very good team that had bad luck.
I agree that the team would have been better in 2008 with Carr, because there'd have been fewer transfers. But he did not recruit that well in his last few seasons - certainly nowhere near as well as Moeller did - and 2008 was going to be a rebuilding year regardless.
"it doesn't come close to what Carr inherited (two NFL starters at QB, a Heisman winner and probable NFL hall of famer, and the bulk of the 1997 roster)"
Whoa- Carr had three people from the NFL come back to play for him, along with someone who had won a Heisman? Was it Tom Harmon? Desmond? What were the NCAA rules back then? Did Carr have a Delorean with a flux capasitor?
My guess is that Carr had something to do with who these guys became. They were simply Michigan football players when Carr "inherited" them. He helped them become who they became and will become.
If you think the difference between Brady/Griese and Mallett/Threet/Sheridan is Lloyd Carr's coaching, then we will have to agree to disagree. I tend to think players make coaches look good more than the other way around.