"Why did these west virgina people come fuck up the best school in the country ... In bball and fball... Please go back"
Mount St. Mary's hired a private equity CEO to be their president. You'll never guess what happened next.
A guy who is not a champion.
“Me and coach Rod are on good terms,” linebacker Marell Evans told the Free Press tonight. “It was more than playing time or academics or anything like that. It was a lot of things. Coach Rod is a great coach and I wish him plenty of success. I wanted to finish my career a different way.”
“He’s a great man and I respect the man,” said Evans, a junior from Richmond, Va. “He wanted me to think about this decision and said I’m a big part of the program. But I respectfully wanted to leave the program.”
well he doesn't have grammer going for him...
Doesn't have grammar going for him either.
This article was written Aug 13 2009!!
What is this "Free Press" you speak of? Is it some constitutional document?
Beilein and RichRod
this is why friends don't leave their social networking account open.
he's a complete idiot. Then again, it's not like the bridge wasn't crossed anyway.
Hate Hate Hate
FWIW - Dave Staudebachers status says: "Taking the dog for a walk."
What did you do on the field and I forgot but how many tackles did you have?
Seriously, Marell Evans?
to football powerhouse Hampton. Maybe he'll get some PT there cuz he sure as hell wasn't gonna get it at UM.
For the avatar.
Bash that motherscratcher! Go for it! There are no repercussions, and making fun of him will negate the fact that much of what he said was right!
The lack of linebacker depth on the Michigan roster is a surefire sign that he would NEVER have played at Michigan, despite the fact that he was at least a part-time starter in his second year of college football.
our football and basketball programs? Because that's what the disdain for Evans is based upon, not anything else he said.
Just a typo he meant WLA
...the fact that the football program was better prior to Rodriguez.
You can go ahead and neg me, but it's true.
He didn't say that. All he said was that Rodriguez "fucked up" the program. There's a big difference.
Are you drunk? If by "fucked up" he didn't mean that Michigan is losing more games, then what could he possibly have meant?
Did he mean that the program is "fucked up" because of the major violations?
Oh...yeah...because that's soooo much better.
Okay, so let's ignore that "fuck up" applies to every aspect. Weight training and conditioning, for example, has significantly improved over the past 2 years.
Unfortunately, the scoreboard doesn't keep track of bench presses and shuttle times. Why does it matter that we're better conditioned if we're losing more games?
...the fact that the football program was better prior to Rodriguez.
That's true, but that's not what Evans said in his post. You can't selectively edit it for him to make it more palatable.
Okay, then please enlighten me as to what he could possibly have meant by "fucked up"? Is he just pissed that Michigan switched from Nike to Adidas?
So you believe that saying that Michigan was better in 2007 is the same thing as saying that Rich Rod "fucked up" the program? Because that's what your statement suggests. But if I recall correctly, in the year before Rich Rod arrived, the football team boasted Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Jake Long, Mario Manningham, and Adrian Arrington.
My understanding is that football-wise, you are one of the smartest people on these boards. But if you believe that Rich Rod "fucked up" the program, and apparently you do, then you believe that Rich rod inherited a program that was in great shape (no player attrition, no poor defensive talent, etc.), and Rich Rod drove it into the ground. I don't believe that to be the case.
I assume that given that you believe Rich Rod "fucked up" the program, you also believe he should be fired?
I don't believe that Rodriguez "fucked up" the program. I have never said that.
What I'm saying is that it's not unfathomable for someone to believe that. Evans is not inherently wrong for believing that Rodriguez did.
I also do not believe Rodriguez should be fired. I have never said that, either. I think he deserves another year, maybe even two.
Also, what many people on this thread seem to be overlooking is the major violations that occurred on Rodriguez's watch; Evans is likely referring to both the losses and the NCAA investigation. You can argue about our roster all you want, but those practice violations, CARA reports, 7-on-7 violations, etc. fall on the shoulders of Rodriguez*.
*You could make an argument that it's not Rodriguez's fault that a GA watched 7-on-7s, but every management person is responsible for their underlings. If Rodriguez isn't to blame for that, then Carr isn't to blame for Gittleson, etc.
the WV guys did not ruin it. Michigan men brought that on themselves.
i know it's not pleasant to think about, but The Horror happened.
How is this relevant?
I said the football program was better prior to Rodriguez.
Yeah, The Horror happened, but would you rather lose to ASU and go 9-4, or would you rather be 3-9?
on the program that they lost to a 1AA team? did you watch that game? how can you not draw lines between 2005, The Horror, and the current state of the program? it was widely rumored that Lloyd was losing the fire and had to be convinced to come back for 2007 in the first place and it certainly looked like it.
Of course it's a reflection on the program, but we were still a better program under Carr than we have been under Rodriguez. Arguing otherwise is a fool's errand.
what i'm arguing. it's certainly not which team won more games.
Losing to Toledo was far, far, far more embarrassing if you actually know a thing or two about football. ASU was a vastly superior team to Toledo. Categories and divisions only matter to schmucks who can't evaluate a team based exclusively on what they see on the field.
But nobody made t-shirts after we lost to Toledo and nobody remembers that game besides us, Toledo fans, and the most die-hard of Michigan haters. The national perception hit the program took from the ASU game was infinitely worse.
I'm not really concerned with the perception of the lowest common denominator. What do people of higher value think? That's what's important.
If people think ASU was a worse football team than Toledo just because they are D1AA ... those people don't know jack, and they don't matter.
yea. The fact that he got passed over and buried on the depth chart made it pretty clear he wasn't gonna see much playing time.
That's really weird, especially since he was passed on the depth chart by John Thompson, who graduated that year.
he started one game, and was passed over by mouton and leach. He was moved to quick when GRob got here and was buried even further. Unless he had a David Harris -like senior awakening, it wasn't gonna happen
Have fun, Marell. You are no longer my favorite scout team linebacker.
My head says that's a silly and short-sighted comment.
My heart full of State and OSU hating rage and belief that what I've seen in Michigan sports the past two/three years is completely unacceptable, says preach on brother.
Psssssst - Shhhhhhhh! You are not allowed to air these sorts of feelings around here
Yeah sorry, I forgot that even State blowout, alcohol driven thoughts of disdain over the last three years are completely unacceptable on MGoBlog.
Especially when you state that really you know and understand that this is short-term....
why would anyone's "heart" say "preach on brother??" That's a ludicrous sentiment, because in doing so you are endorsing a completely moronic, immature comment by Evans. That's why the comment is neg-worthy, not because it's contrary.
It's not like he's trolling, cursing, using racial slurs, has awful grammar, has excessive misspellings, or using tons OF ALL CAPS!!!
We don't need to neg people into oblivion for being contrary, we need to neg people for being douche bags. The board is no fun if everyone always agrees.
Sorry, I get frustrated sometimes at somewhat frustrated posts that end up with -10 or so points.
my heart says "preach on brother".
With the '08 cast, what would have been acceptable? And, no, you don't get to play that year with Mallet and Boren, in case you were wondering.
It's OK to have a dissenting opinion, but you might be asked about some details. To your credit, you didn't MLive it with UNACCEPTABLE!!!
P.S. At this point I'm more worried about Beilein than RichRod. Really. There hasn't been much upperclass talent to work with on the gridiron.
Hilarious that he thinks Beilein f'ed up the basketball program. What did his Facebook page say about the basketball team before Beilein's arrival?
Something about how the "duke people" messed up the great thing Brian Ellerbe had going.
it's a short sighted comment and one that is negative. In practice, he's correct. When you look at basketball & football, this is the worst M has done in a long time. He's correct.
We all know RR needs to win and win big and same with JB. I love them, as do you, but the record is awful by all of our standards.
but basketball? when was the last time Michigan basketball was good? oh wait. LAST SEASON. what about before that?.......
Last year we went to the tournament for the first time in 11 years. This year we were highly overrated and played to our talent level. We start a 6'4" power forward. How good were you expecting us to be?
You're friends with Marell Evans on Facebook?
If its the best school in the country, why did you transfer to...Hampton
And why does he care about what Michigan does?
"Sure, last year was an anomaly in basketball, but man, has UM's main three sports just stunk like UM's dorm food."
Chicken broccoli bake is delicious and should never be compared to the bball team's level of play.
I respectfully disagree with you regarding the dorm food.
Bi Bim Bop
at any rate, i guess when it rains it pours *shrugs shoulders*
Clearly it is the conditioning and not the fact that we can't shoot for shit in basketball, or read a pass in football.
That is actually a really fair comment from Biggs, IME. I don't know how much lifting stuff Barwis does with the other sports (I thought the basketball team worked with some guy who came from Clemson), but they are all having issues, and if Barwis and his staff are involved with all of them, Biggs could have something here. Obviously, it would not be the only reason for the stuggles (lack of depth in both basketball and football, youth, new systems), but it's an interesting point
Bball has their own conditioning if I recall.
Anyway, Barwis isn't really doing anything groundbreaking. Pretty much every NCAA football program is going to give you olympic lifts. He basically just put UM on par with everyone else.
Rondell Biggs, given his felony count for steroid possession, probably isn't the first person to whom I'd look for commentary on proper training technique. But maybe he should be?
What exactly is it you're looking to achieve?
Restricting the discussion to football for a moment, what exactly did RichRod "@#$% up" here? It's a serious question. Does anyone think Lloyd would have taken the '08 team to a January 1 bowl game?
but in all seriousness I do.
Had Lloyd stayed on, there is a chance (albeit a very small one) he gets Mallett to stay. I know we throw around that he was out the door anyway, and that very well could be true, but there is always a chance it could have played out differently had he stayed.
Now let's say Mallett leaves, Lloyd still has Threet, who could have very well been a much better player in a traditional offense. Also, perhaps Lloyd keeps the D coordinator from the previous season.
For many reasons I think Lloyd could have taken the team to a bowl game. Certainly not the rose bowl or national championship, but a low level bowl.
To follow that up though, I loved the RR hire. I knew there were going to be growing pains and , while not considereing 3-9 to be a possibility, I wasn' totally surprised by the outcome.
I think RR will be able to get UM back to respectability if he is given two more years (actually, respectability this year and national prominence in the years to come).
Let's just give him time to see his first class be seniors before we throw this entire experiment out the window and go through the exact same thing while changing systems again. I don't want to go through this again.
If Mallett had stayed, maybe we could have eked our way into a decent bowl (although I doubt it given our horrendous OL and injury-riddled RB corps). But with Threet? No way. He simply wasn't ready to be playing then. If he couldn't make his reads in the relatively simplified RR passing attack, how could he have done so in Carr's more complex scheme? Think John Navarre in 2000, only with far less talent surrounding him.
It doesn't help him in any way at Hampton, and simply makes him look small.
I don't think it's worth getting worked up about in any event. The vast majority of guys on the team are solidly in RR's corner; many of them are going to have solid Michigan careers, some of them will be legit stars here, and the best will play in the NFL. I'd rather focus on what they're doing and saying.
Why are you reading the Facebook page of a Hampton football player?
Maybe they were friends when both at Michigan?
I don't have a problem with what he said, at least about the football program. He's entitled to his own opinion, and it's hard to argue that he's wrong.
And Evans did spend a year under both Carr and Rodriguez, so he has a fair perspective.
reading comprehension here. "Fucked up" is not the same as losing games. And if that is what he means by it, then maybe he didn't get that fair perspective. If our default is to discount behavioral mistakes as the result of "18-22 year olds being 18-22 years old" then I'm not sure how we can fail do the same with their opinion on the state of the program.
I think it is fair to say that simply losing games would not constitue "fing up" a program (we agree on this). However, there have been other things that have happened that might lead others to make statements such as this.
Of course I am taking about "major violations" and people getting arrested etc etc.
To be clear, I find it hilarious that the NCAA would call what has happened at UM "major violations" when most coahces say the same things go on everywhere and the NCAA never does anything about it. However, the fact remains that the NCAA has found there to be "major violations" in the way the football program has been run under RR.
Also to clarify, I don't put the blame on RR for what happened with Feagan or Cissoko. Feagan was a last minute pick and even his HS coach didn't know about his problems so how on earth could RR. Couple that with the fact that he was dismissed from the team immediately and I came out of that situation with even more respect for RR than I did in the beginning.
In Cissoko's case you had a guy who was never in trouble before and simply went off the rails when he hit the big time, it happens. RR gave him a couple chances before dismissing him from the team entirely and given the circumstance I think that was fair (it was mainly dealing with academics, not legal stuff initially). My respect grew for RR here as well because the one position that we could have really used some help last year was CB and Cissoko could have provided that. However, RR stuck to his guns and dismissed one of our few scholarship CB's from the team regardless of the impact it would have on the outcome of the season.
In short what I am saying is I don't agree at all with what Evans is saying, but I can't say that it is unreasonable for someone to make such conclusions given the circumstance.
i'm not railing on Evans for a reason. it's the folks with access to the relevant information i've got a problem with.
Right here, as usual. Facebook stalking, combing the internet for Bad Michigan Stories, put them here, and shit on the people who say them.
Right now, Evans shows he still cares about Michigan and he is just about right.
But I know, NOTHING is Belien or Rodriduez's fault, the Point Pussies will make damn sure you drinkie de kool aid or you will pay--and pay dearly.
Is this the King of Belch?
I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. They have the best dumpsters. Very comfortable.
The only thing that really matters is dumpster sex.
I don't think ragging on your coach is necessarily "caring" about the program. It's more just showing how small and insecure you are that you have to utilize FACEBOOK of all things to complain about your former coach. If he truly cared about the program he would just leave the situation alone instead of focusing it on himself. Evans should know which battles deserve to be fought and which don't.
And everyone here just wants one thing--to win again. I'm sure if you've actually been paying attention the past couple of years, PLENTY has been RR's fault, but that still doesn't take away the fact that many of us (including myself) think RR is our best bet to get back to the top. If we're wrong, then so be it.
It's ridiculous to think that some 20- or 21-year-old kid is going to keep his thoughts to himself so as not to "hurt the program." Kids that age are going to say what they're thinking when there are no repercussions, and Evans is headed off to play at Hampton.
Should you expect a 35- or 40-year-old person to maintain some semblance of professionalism if they get fired/ get pink-slipped/move to a different job? Sure.
But let's not pretend that most 20-year-olds have the foresight/perspective to keep things like this to themselves.
The fact that somebody posted this HERE is doing more damage than Evans posting it on FACEBOOK. All this thread did was bring oodles and oodles more attention to it. He probably only has a few hundred Facebook friends (many of whom don't give a rat's ass about football, I'm sure) and here it's already been viewed 2259 times and counting.
"But let's not pretend that most 20-year-olds have the foresight/perspective to keep things like this to themselves."
But we should take their perspective on the program seriously?
You don't have to take it "seriously" as in get all pissed about it or vote for him for president. All I'm saying is that it's somewhat difficult to argue with him at this point.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
brian certainly could mount an argument. plenty of people have here with you. so it's not difficult. you've just seemingly forgotten what's been documented.
"It's more just showing how small and insecure you are that you have to utilize MGOBLOG of all things to complain about your former backup linebacker."
Well you're never going to get a free Mgohat with THAT attitude.
I read that book. It was awesome.
...it's "hard to argue that he's wrong." The "fuck up" started before RR got here as has been detailed on this blog starting on the defensive side of the ball. The "fuck up" continued during the search for a HC. Sounds like another bitter transfer - but I'm curious why they're bitter (Wermers, Clemons, et cetera).
But whatever. Guess RR had to "fuck it up" before attempting to build it back up.
Say what you want about Lloyd Carr, but his worst record was 7-5. And bringing in another similar-minded coach may have stuck us in neutral in the 7-5 to 9-4 range.
But you can't argue that 7-5 or 9-4 is more "fucked up" than 3-9 or 5-7.
Rodriguez might pull us out of this tailspin we're in, but things have very clearly been FUBAR for the past two seasons. Don't ignore reality for the sake of trying to make a point.
Haven't said anything about LC; I didn't need to. "The little Mountaineers pulled off one of the greatest upsets in college football history" said everything. People complaining about Debord's predictable offense said everything. People whispering about the Club Med type atmosphere said everything. Can certainly argue that RR went 3-9 WITH a walk on QB and RS FR - neither of which were dual threat QBs; several transfers, dissension on the team all while trying to install a fairly foreign offense on the fly - not to mention being undermined from the inside out. Regardless, the "fuck up" DID start before RR got there (defensive recruiting and attrition since '05 has been discussed ad infinitum); not sure why you fail to acknowledge this in your haste to defend his right to voice his opinion. Wrt M.E. sure he's entitled to his opinion and we most certainly can criticize it.
Might want to take your own advice about ignoring reality for the sake of trying to make a point.
Debord's predictable offense got us to 11-2 and 9-4 in the seasons prior to Rodriguez coming on the scene. The Club Med atmosphere got us to 11-2 and 9-4 in the seasons prior to Rodriguez. Etc.
I'm not saying that the pre-Rodriguez Michigan was perfect or anything, but come on...if anything has been "fucked up," it's been the post-Carr era. Are you seriously going to argue otherwise? Two losing seasons, no bowls, potential major violations... I mean, come on.
I'm not ignoring the attrition and such. I fully acknowledge that Rodriguez was dealt a tough hand to play. It's extremely frustrating that he might NEVER have an upperclassman QB at Michigan (that is, if the team does poorly this year and he gets fired).
That being said, "fucked up" does not describe 11-2 and 9-4 seasons. "Fucked up" describes 3-9 and 5-7 seasons, major violations, a sinking APR, etc. Whatever the reasons behind those issues, Rodriguez is somewhere between "partially" and "fully" responsible.
lots of people fall between "partially" and "fully" responsible. Including Marrel Evans, Rich Rodriguez, Lloyd Carr, Bill Martin etc...
5 offensive starters drafted into the NFL from the same team couldn't beat a D2 team. In Lloyd's last 2 years at head coach, he had 13 guys drafted into the NFL. In the following 4 years, he will probably have between 7 and 9. I would think the fuck up happened well before RichRod got to town
So the lack of player development WHILE RODRIGUEZ HAS BEEN COACH is Lloyd Carr's fault?
I'm not here to bash Rodriguez. He's been dealt a tough hand. I think he can win, and I'm hoping he does.
But this whole "Let's blame Lloyd Carr for global warming" mentality is beyond ridiculous.
Yeah, RichRod should be blamed for all the walkons that were beating out Lloyd's juniors and seniors. But since you think there has been a lack of player development, which unbelievable talent do you think could have been drafted or drafted much higher if not for RichRod's horrible development of his talent?
Plus, we all know global warming is the space emperor's fault for kicking a hole in the ozone layer.
I don't know. There's been a lot of attrition and some guys we never saw play much. I mean, Carson Butler had a lot of talent but couldn't earn playing time under Rodriguez. I know he was an asshole, but he was a talented asshole. Lloyd had a knack for developing wide receivers. Perhaps Mathews, Clemons, or Hemingway would have been studs if Carr were still here. Maybe O'Neill would have stuck around and Carr's offense would have fit him better.
I don't know. It's impossible to tell.
So you don't know and it is impossible to tell.....unless you read your own last post in which you said it was RichRod's fault talent wasn't being developed.
You love leading questions, don't you?
I said you can't blame the lack of player development (i.e. very few star players appearing) on Lloyd Carr, who hasn't been the coach for about 2 years and 3 months now.
There might be other reasons that our players haven't performed well (attrition, etc.), but blaming Carr for that stuff is somewhat ridiculous.
No, I love watching you say that there has been a lack of player development under RichRod and when asked which players you are talking about that weren't developed, you say you don't know and it's impossible to tell. I understand you can't blame everything on Lloyd Carr, but even if I were generous enough to give you the 4 guys you specifically mentioned and I throw in Mallett and Boren, you are still looking at the same number of drafted players in the following 4 years as in Lloyd's last 2 years at HC (I left out O'neill because he transferred to Western - that would be like saying Marrel Evans might have made the NFL if he hadn't tranferred to Hampton or wherever the fuck he went). The defense was one of the worst in UM's history in 07 (which is the reason we had 5 offensive players drafted into the NFL and still lost to a DII school, got stomped by Oregon, and almost gave up the game against Florida) and that same shitty defense was back in 08 to suck balls again. If you can't see that the team had already started to crumble before RichRod took over, I don't know what to tell you.
Debord's predictable offense got us to 11-2 and 9-4 in the seasons prior to Rodriguez coming on the scene.
Actually, it was more the abandonment of DeBord's offense in the 4th quarter of many games that allowed us to win. There were many games under Carr in which we fell behind double-digits as we "established the run" against a stacked defense, only to whip out the "scoring offense" in the 4th quarter and escape.
The "fuck up" started before RR got here
So, the "fuck up" started with Moeller? Or were you saying something about Carr?
You don't think roster issues had far more to do with the record the past two years than the performance of the coaching staff? I would think you would grasp better than anyone the task Rodriguez and Co. have faced the last two years and see the clear signs that things are headed in the right direction.
I certainly don't think Coach Carr was responsible for the tailspin (transition/attrition drastically amplified underlying issues) but he certainly left the program in worse shape than he found it.
"He certainly left the program in worse shape than he found it."
This is patently false. Lloyd Carr took over a team that had been 8-4 in consecutive seasons. He "left it" with 11-2 and 9-4 seasons.
Somewhere in the middle, he added a national championship and a Heisman winner.
His winning percentage was .753, which is virtually the same as Moeller's .758.
Carr raised Michigan's all-time winning percentage.
Carr produced better NFL players than Moeller.
I believe Michigan took over the all-time victories title during Carr's years, but I could be wrong.
So actually, no, Carr didn't leave the program worse off than it was when he took over. Not even close.
Viking dude, I'm partially with you (really). RichRod can't be isolated from what has happened here.
But, please look at the NFL (or close) haul from the '05, '06, and '07 classes.
Maybe Lloyd didn't "leave the cupboard bare." But, as others have noted, I think it's fair to say that it was somewhat bare when he left.
For the sake of simplicity, look at the QB position in '08. It's the worst I've even seen. (I can't remember anything before the mid-'80s.)
Serious question: What do you think Lloyd's record would have been with the '08 team (same roster, same number of transfers).
probably would've gone 6-6 at very best in 2008, but more probably 5-7. This is assuming Mallett transferred. I believe Lloyd would've won the Toledo game and probably the Purdue game as well. It's really tough to find other possible victories with that 2008 squad.
I don't know what Lloyd's record would have been with that roster. I do think it would have been BETTER than 3-9. In fact, there's no doubt in my mind that it would have been better, because there's no historical evidence to suggest otherwise.
But that's just a giant intellectual leap, since some of those transfers wouldn't have happened if Lloyd had remained as coach. I honestly can't give you a more specific answer than "better."
Carr inherited Charles Woodson, Tom Brady, and a full roster with countless other future NFL players. He also never won a major bowl game after those guys left campus. Rodriguez inherited Graham, Warren, two late round picks last year, and the ghost of Ryan Mallett.
I didn't criticize Carr's record at UM, but to me it seems crazy to think he passed along a program in as good of shape to move forward as the one he received.
Rodriguez inherited Adrian Arrington, Mario Manningham, and Justin Boren, too. Two of those guys are in the NFL right now, and one is likely headed there soon.
You cannot blame Lloyd Carr for all the players who transferred AFTER RODRIGUEZ WAS HIRED. That's preposterous.
No, but can you blame Rodriguez either? In Boren's case you probably could, but I don't think Rodriguez ran off Arrington and Manningham. I don't think staying was much of an option for those two, regardless of the coach.
I think those two were gone (to get paid in the NFL, not to transfer or because they didn't like the new staff) no matter what. If you've heard otherwise, I'm all ears but neither seemed like the collegiate type and both saw an opportunity to go to the league.
Adding Boren to that list does not tip the scales in my opinion.
that's absurd as hell. in the very least, attrition should be expected as a result of a guard changing. c'mon. it's obvious and respectable that you want to side with the kid, but it's officially come at the expense of being fair to a guy who's been nothing but immensely respected and successful for 20 years.
obvs. it was under his comment last night too...
"So actually, no, Carr didn't leave the program worse off than it was when he took over. Not even close."
If you go by the amount of talent on the roster, then YES, he did. inarguably.
So now it's Lloyd's fault that probably our best offensive lineman (Boren) transferred to OSU, that Arrington and Manningham entered the draft early, and that Ryan Mallett left town?
Yeah. You're right. If you subtract all the guys that left once Rodriguez was hired, then I guess Lloyd Carr is to blame for the roster's shortages.
You can't be serious.
Yes. I am right.
Yes. I am serious.
Even if all those guys had stayed (which seems highly unlikely even if Carr had not retired) it doesn't come close to what Carr inherited (two NFL starters at QB, a Heisman winner and probable NFL hall of famer, and the bulk of the 1997 roster).
FWIW, I'm trying to avoid talking about the roster here, because a) not all of Carr's recruits have matriculated and b) it's impossible to say who might have developed differently/better/worse under Carr than Rodriguez.
For example, Steve Threet might have developed into a good quarterback if he were given a few years to develop in an offense that fit him.
What I'm focusing on here is the overall success of the program, which matters more than individual accomplishments/talents, anyway.
Lloyd Carr was preceded by two 8-4 seasons, and started his career 9-4. Furthermore, the entire 1997 team might not have been recruited by him, but he coached them in 1995, 1996, and 1997. He deserves WAY more credit for their success than Moeller. Charlie Weis gets a bad rap around here for taking highly ranked recruits and turning them into a 6-6 team. So why are we bashing Carr for taking a recruiting class (of what caliber I don't know) and turning them into a 13-0 team? Development trumps recruiting every time.
Lloyd Carr ended his career with 11-2 and 9-4 seasons, and was followed by 3-9 and 5-7 seasons.
The program was worse BEFORE he took over, and it's been worse AFTER he left.
I suppose I am viewing program strength in terms of potential future performance rather than what has just happened. While Carr went 9-4 his final season, that team was losing Henne, Hart, Long, Crable, and (I think) Arrington and Manningham, so I don't view them as being at 9-4 in terms of program strength going forward, if that makes sense. I think the program was poised for a drop no matter what happened (though clearly the transition/departures, no matter who is to blame for them, exacerbated that situation immensely). Things hadn't been all that great for a while (1-6 against Tressel, no big bowl wins since 1999 season, Horror) and I didn't particularly see any reason to think they were going to improve in the near future. Even that extremely talented group of departing players had gone 0-4 against OSU. At the same time, I think Carr was handed a roster poised for big things and the results in his first five years on the job bore that out, though hindsight is 20-20 of course.
Carr had a lot of success in his career, but he never reached the same level he did with Moeller's players (two BCS bowl wins and a national title) in the 8 seasons after those guys all graduated (with the close loss to Texas as probably the high point nationally). Conversely, Rodriguez's record has and (I think most of us agree) will continue to improve the further he gets from the transition. If he doesn't win 9-10 games (at least) in 2011, I will be extremely disappointed and open to all criticism of his performance. If he goes no better than 1-6 against Tressel I will be furious. If he goes close to a decade before winning a major bowl then he probably wasn't the right guy for the job.
Until then, I think it is ridiculous and unfair for anyone to accuse him of "fucking up" the program considering the hand he was dealt and the predictably jarring nature of the transition.
here's a thought experiment. give the 2005 team Nick Sheridan at quarterback. the article i did here suggests that Sheridan was worth -2 wins compared to average, which puts the '05 team at 5-7. i bet if you start trading equivalent talent further than just Sheridan, you can get to 3 wins pretty easily.
and of course, that assumes we're looking at this as though the performance of these teams is in fact equal to true talent. i would be willing to bet that luck didn't actually cancel out and was more of a hindrance in '08/'09.
"I think it is ridiculous and unfair for anyone to accuse him of "fucking up" the program considering the hand he was dealt and the predictably jarring nature of the transition."
So who was in charge of the team when they incurred major violations? Because I'd guess that's part of what Evans is referring to.
First off, the school has yet to incur major violations, they've just been accused of them. Second, I personally view them as major violations in name only. Stretching a little too much and having QC guys too involved (especially when the rules have since changed to allow some of the activity cited in the allegation). I can certainly understand if that is what is bothering you, though.
As for Evans, however, I think his gripe comes purely from a wins-losses standpoint (especially since he lumped the basketball program into his statement). Coming from a guy who essentially quit on the team, school, and program (though it certainly may have been in his best interest to do so) is really annoying. This is why you see the negative reaction on here. If some UM dropout accused Mary Sue of "fucking up" the school, even if she had made mistakes on the job, I think you would see the exact same kind of response.
I think it's impossible to say that Evans was ONLY referring to the win-loss record when he said "fucked up." Maybe it's just as presumptuous to think that he meant both the allegations and the losses, but still...
When was the basketball team accused of violations?
take talent into consideration, then you can't make an argument.
Talented or not, there's no historical evidence to suggest that Carr would have gone 3-9 or 5-7. He never had a losing season or even a .500 season.
The roster for the last two years hasn't been great, but I'm confident that Carr would have done better than 3-9 or 5-7.
There also was no historical evidence to suggest Carr would have lost to Appalachian State w/ Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Jake Long, Adam Kraus, Mario Manningham, Adrian Arrington, Shawn Crable, Jamar Adams, et. al. on the roster, but he managed to find a way.
Lloyd, for some unbeknown reason, always seemed to lose to at least one really weak team per year. Regardless of the talent he had on his team he always made games that should have been blowouts, end in close games. Sometimes he came out on the losing ends of those games.
In short, I would say there is historical evidence that would suggest he could lose to a creampuff, while still putting together a 7-5 season or better.
I guess I'd be interested to know who all these "creampuffs" are that you're equating with losing to Appalachian State.
In 2006, Ball State played us pretty close. We came out ahead but they gave us a good scare ... those of us who saw it, anyway.
All I remember is Lloyd's teams constantly playing down to the level of their competition and sometimes losing games they should have easily won because of it.
I am not trying to bag on Carr, I truly admire and respect him, but at the same time, thought it was time for him to move on (just my opinion, which I know isn't shared by everyone).
I freely admit it was wrong of me to say he used to lose to "creampuffs", that wasn't accurate or the right word for what I was tying to say. We did, however, lose a number of games we should have won while Carr was here (at least we should have won them IME).
which is why the blog has gone to such great lengths to document the attrition issues that are in the very least partly Lloyd's fault. did you forget about the starting walk on quarterback, linebacker and safety?
You can't blame the attrition on Carr. You can blame it on the nebulous "coaching change" where some players just don't fit the new scheme/coaching staff. Or you can blame it on Rodriguez.
But is it Carr's fault that Threet transferred? Is it Carr's fault that Mallett transferred? Christian Wilson, a linebacker/tight end, had been committed to Michigan until Rodriguez got hired. John Wienke, a pro style quarterback, had been committed until then, too. Is it Carr's fault that Adrian Arrington, Michigan's next potential star wide receiver, left early for the NFL draft? Is it Carr's fault that Toney Clemons was forced into playing slot receiver and thus wanted out? Is it Carr's fault that Justin Boren wanted to leave? Is it Carr's fault that Dann O'Neill washed out and transferred to CMU because he was 6'8" and didn't fit the zone blocking scheme employed by Rodriguez? Is it Carr's fault that Artis Chambers, who was good enough to start in 2008, transferred to Ball State because he couldn't find a position in Shafer's defense?
Again, you can't blame all these things on Rodriguez (for example, he had no choice but to force SOMEONE into playing slot receiver), but you CERTAINLY can't blame them on Lloyd Carr.
and aside from a few questionable claims toward the end, it's obvious that neither Carr nor Rodriguez were responsible for the attrition mentioned. the program didn't get handed off to a Carr protege and, surprise, mass attrition was experienced. i really don't know what this has to do with the program being fucked up by Rodriguez. that's the claim you said was difficult to argue with. which it isn't.
and the attrition issue is separate entirely from the direction of the program under Carr, which was clearly slipping toward the end. i swear, it's like you forgot you have read mgo for the last half decade.
It's not that I forgot everything I've read on MGoBlog - it's that people continue piling things on Carr's shoulders that aren't his fault.
I agree that the program was slipping. I don't think it was a foregone conclusion that we would be 8-16 and be facing major violations, though. There's a large gap between 9-4 and where we are now.
Eh...I'm done arguing about what a 21-year-old kid said on his Facebook page.
and for that matter, most of the folks here, seem to have been pretty reasonable. no one here hates Lloyd Carr. mgo was a bastion of Carr support, even in the later years.
and if you're going to cite the NCAA stuff, can you at least use quotes for "major violations" ? no one thinks they're major, not even the NCAA.
but you're right insofar as i was projecting my beliefs onto the fanbase at large. i don't have a problem with what happened other than to say i'm pissed at the AD's office for not having their shit together.
One thing I want to point out here: It was Rodriguez's decision to start Sheridan. This is a mystery, because he was not as good a QB as Threet.
My guess is that he started Sheridan (as well as subbed Sheridan in, even when Threet was doing OK in some instances) as a "motivational" tool. That is, trying to get Threet to play better by ruffling his feathers, challenging his sense of self-worth, etc. Whatever the intent, the decision didn't work out too well in most cases.
Michigan won five consecutive Big Ten titles from 1988-92. We slumped a bit the next two seasons, but there was no reason to believe the program was headed downhill. Moeller recruited extremely well. You cannot possibly compare our program in 1994 (which was a preseason top 5 team, BTW) with our program in 2008.
What does a "preseason top 5" ranking have to do with anything? Preseason rankings mean absolutely nothing.
Regardless, the point is that the program was not "fucked up" and would most likely not be this "fucked up" if Carr would have continued as coach. I know Rodriguez installed his system and there were going to be some difficulties in the translation, etc., etc. I know all that. But Evans's point is defensible.
The 1994 team was a preseason top 5 squad that played what turned out to be the nation's toughest schedule (look it up) and went 8-4. It lost nailbiters to PSU and Colorado teams that finished 12-0 and 11-1, respectively. Basically, it was a very good team that had bad luck.
I agree that the team would have been better in 2008 with Carr, because there'd have been fewer transfers. But he did not recruit that well in his last few seasons - certainly nowhere near as well as Moeller did - and 2008 was going to be a rebuilding year regardless.
"it doesn't come close to what Carr inherited (two NFL starters at QB, a Heisman winner and probable NFL hall of famer, and the bulk of the 1997 roster)"
Whoa- Carr had three people from the NFL come back to play for him, along with someone who had won a Heisman? Was it Tom Harmon? Desmond? What were the NCAA rules back then? Did Carr have a Delorean with a flux capasitor?
My guess is that Carr had something to do with who these guys became. They were simply Michigan football players when Carr "inherited" them. He helped them become who they became and will become.
If you think the difference between Brady/Griese and Mallett/Threet/Sheridan is Lloyd Carr's coaching, then we will have to agree to disagree. I tend to think players make coaches look good more than the other way around.
though i suppose QB might be particularly reliant on coaching.
As a lot of people used to call him good ole 4 loss LLLLoyd. How about this? I thought Lloyd could have always done better then he did if he wasn't such a conservative coach. He had teams that were way too talented to have ended up with 3 or 4 losses. That drove me equally as nuts as these past 2 years. The last 2 years suck,but I wasn't exactly thrilled with losing 3 or 4 games a year either. They haven't been the true definition of elite for a long, long time. The program was very good at best, not elite though. I was happy that they went outside of the box with the RR hire. The whole run, left, run left, 4 yard slant on 3 and 8 offense was getting old too. I was happy to see something new. I thought the first year was going to be rough, and I was a little discouraged about last year, I was expecting better, but I did see progress. The thing I hold out hope for is the guy says he needs guys to fit his system, although I would hope the system could have a little flexibility with what we have until it is all systems go, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt to get a recruiting class through school before I am heading down to AA with torches a blazing. Only a hand full of "his guys" have seen the field. I am curious to see, and I feel he deserves the shot to have 22 of "his guys" starting out on the field based on his previous success. We are too far in the process to have a redo now, we may as well see what he can do with a whole recruiting cycle. I hope this year wasn't as painful as the last 2 though.
Magnus, indeed the past few years have been "fucked up". But did Rodriguez do the "fuck[ing] up" as Evan's states? I think most would agree that he has played a role in it, but to believe that everything that has happened the past two years are entirely Rodriguez's fault is a bit absurd. Note: I don't think you think that. But if think Rodriguez fucked up the program, then you must be blaming most of the past two years on him.
At this point, I think things like an exceptionally depleted roster put Rodriguez below the 50% threshold for accountability for the tailspin. Thus, I find it hard to say at this point in time that Rodriguez "fucked up" the program.
The program is fucked up for sure, but does the majority of the blame currently lay at the feet of Rodriguez or other extenuating factors? Your call, but I think that's where the discrepancy is coming from in your thinking vs. many of the other posters.
There are extenuating circumstances but
a) I think there are numerous coaches out there who would NOT have gone 3-9 and/or 5-7 with what Carr left behind.
b) Rodriguez and his staff brought on these NCAA violations, which is more egregious to me than the losing.
So since we're speaking in a lot of hypotheticals here, would [insert some other coach's name here] going 7-5 and 7-5 the past two seasons AND avoiding major violations have prevented people from saying Michigan's football program was "fucked up"? In other words, would Marell Evans have posted this/would we be talking about this mentality if someone other than Rodriguez had been hired?
You could make an argument either way, but it's not unfathomable for someone to blame the "fucked up" program on Rodriguez.
Indeed. But as you point out, I think we're dealing with a matter of perception. There's way too many "what ifs" to say that Rodriguez is definitely or definitely not at fault for the fucked up nature of the program. You can probably make valid arguments either way, and so this whole thread seems rather pointless.
Anyway, who cares about this kid's opinion?
but I have read every post in this thread and I haven't seen him say anywhere, that he thinks the program is "f'ed up". From what I have read he is saying he can understand how someone would think that, but hasn't said those are his thoughts.
"There's way too many "what ifs" to say that Rodriguez is definitely or definitely not at fault for the fucked up nature of the program. You can probably make valid arguments either way"
You acknowledge above that you can make an arguement either way, yet fail to realize that is exactly what Magnus (and others on this thread) are doing, just not on the same side of the debate the majority are.
I don't think it is a bad thing necessarily, to have someone play the devils advocate once in a while.
anyone say it's surprising. Look at the context of the program within which the violations occurred. I work hard when I don't achieve excellence. That is pretty much all that is being said. Herron was dumb. RR was dumber. But I understand what went on there.
The ramifications are serious... especially wrt the Fab 5 era. I'm hoping that doesn't come to bite us...again. Recruiting is crucial but the crucible for recovery is ready for heating. The next 2 years...yes 2 years...will tell us whether we need a new plan. We need to stick to the plan in the meantime and talk about the team we have. That is the Michigan way (though I support your right to discourse in this country - I would prefer the best interests of Michigan are served.)
We are in sad times, indeed -- sad, that I find myself increasingly on Magnus's side of the argument. What treacherous times we've inherited.
Nonetheless, it is ridiculous to sit here speculating on counterfactuals and comparing records and such. Consider only one thing:
Have you been impressed with the team's performance on the field?
or, to put another way:
Adjusting for talent (e.g. 2008 QB situation), do you think RR has gotten the most out of his players?
Personally, there are very few times I have. Watching the old highlight reels brings it home for me -- despite my constant complaints of sloppy tackling and corners lining up 10-yards off the LOS during my college years -- watching those old teams just HAMMER their opponents and compete against solid teams, win or lose, paints a stark contrast from what I've seen in RR's tenure. There's something that seems lost that I can only sum up with "prowess." Maybe it's just foggy nostalgia-goggles. Who knows.
I've not jumped ship yet. But the results have something to say. Who or what is to blame? We can't be sure, but from my perspective "management" is of primary importance with regard to coaching. Is it really unreasonable to questions RR's ability to manage a team (including the coaching staff)? This whole compliance fiasco, though it seems arbitrary and capricious, has dispelled my willingness to defend RR like a fanatic defends his Crazy Mud God. Not anymore.
The rhetoric on this board would be downright alarming, if only any of it mattered a whit.
How old are these "old highlight reels" you speak of? Carr's teams were consistently criticized for playing to the level of their opposition. Even against MAC opponents, we tended to turn in sluggish performances and let them hang around well into the second half. The 1999 team - which featured an NFL Hall of Fame QB and a ton of other talent - played nine close games out of 12.
Any game from the Carr or Moeller era. Yes, there are plenty of ugly ones.
But the last two years have yielded games a lot uglier than anything I've seen in the 90's or 2000's. I'm aware of the many underlying considerations. I'm just saying -- there is room for rational and constructive criticism at this point. No need for this board to turn into the e-quivalent* of Fox News.
*see what I did, there?
it's academic to argue a different course at this point. Sadly I don't think the OC or DC were ready to step up into Lloyd's shoes. Once the decision was made...keeping Mallett was not an option either. The rest has been well documented.
In hindsight Vance Bedford should have been kept, I don't think you could have kept many more without undermining the fundamental change that was mandated.
We lost the Horror, and got smushed by Oregon and the Buckeyes are killing us year in year out - that was the reality post LC that drove the reality of the last two. I don't think too many wrong decisions were made. The final song has yet to be sung wrt the new regime.
I wasn't saying anything about keeping LC or such.
My argument is that, given what we've seen on the field the last two years as well as other issues (e.g. compliance debacle), there is room to question RR's managerial skills. That is: Despite being dealt a bad hand, he may not be getting the most out of his players. I don't think LC was getting the most out of his 2007 squad, either (except the bowl game); the same can be said for a number of individual games throughout prior seasons. But it is still something that Michigan fans should expect from their coaches.
And yes, you're right. The final verdict is not in on RR. And it's not even about wins and losses (IMO), it's about being competitive against top teams. For example, we were more competitive against OSU in 2009 than 2007, so +1 for RR. He hasn't done all bad and he still has his chance to turn the program around. But to sit here and make excuses for every single thing under the sun, and to treat any criticism like it's heresy... frankly, such behavior does not suit the Michigan elite.
We're better than that. We're better than letting the Freep guide our discourse. And it is doing just that -- the defensiveness on this board and its obsession with the Freep is indication that the Freep is winning. They want to polarize the fanbase and create controversy, because that makes money for them. And here we are, complete reactionaries who make an excellent stereotype for the Freep to use as they try to create an alluring narrative of this football program.
Not every criticism of RR is fueled by the Freep's mudslinging. If you turn a blind eye to the negatives or make excuses for everything, I don't see how your stance is any more legitimate than the pitchfork-wielding anti-RR cadre who turn a blind eye to the positives.
Hmmm...maybe. As you say I don't think they are staked on anything but making money from ultimately. Certainly truth is not the goal.
Am I defending RR? Yeah I guess I am. I honestly think compliance issues of this magnitude are common at most every school. We're just experiencing a heightened focus for a variety of reasons. Not to mention the poor performance that preceded this whole course of events.
Clearly Herron was over the line. RR was not on top of that. RR is culpable. (as I said above) Michigan is vulnerable especially post Fab 5 probation. (as I said above) This could be very serious - if the NCAA wants to go there. I think that gives this an honest shake. I'm not turning a blind eye to the negatives.
I do see the positives. We did sign a 6 year deal with RR. These violations will not get worse. Brandon has said they do not rise to the level that negates that contract. We need to deal with this and move on.
is it not funny that these players didn't play?
Clemons commented on his status and said that the real n*ggas left. ha, i think he means the real back ups left.
hey Clemons, how is Colorado? hey Evans, hows um, wait, where are you? hey Wermers, how are your grades?
I think the fair minded Michigan fan simply disagrees with the manner in which particular players voice their opinions.
Let me make it clear that I have no problem with Evans voicing his opinion on facebook. That is his privacy. There is a difference between going to the papers and taking up an issue internally.
I think Magnus nailed, at least for me, how things feel right now - things seem to be spinning a bit out of control it is really difficult to see any silver lining. Recruiting is going to take a hit due to the violations, and, save a stellar 2010 season, the last two years are going to start to have their impact on recruiting. Taken together, the outlook seems bleak. I for one have major doubts as to any near-term emergence from football perdition. God I hop I am dead wrong.
If I'm not mistaken, Evans came from Varina HS in VA, a year after MINOR RAGE. They generally have a pretty tough team. But maybe the Pahokee pipeline will turn out to be more fruitful in the coming years?
Rich Rod...just win, baby. Just win.
Since this back and forth between Magnus and most of the free world has taken on a life of its own and finding a spot on the thread to jump in nearly impossible, let me offer my two cents here.
Last August, during the offseason doldrums, there was some analysis done in regrards to the evaluating the profile of our althetes on the intake (recruiting rankings) vs. how well they had done on the outgoing side of things (draft ranking, All Americans, All Conference, ets) and the general consensus was that on the whole there was a drop from the time an athlete enrolled until they left the program when compared to how their peers had been developed at other schools.
I really like Lloyd Carr. But it is hard not to make the case that in spite of the win-loss record, the program was in a steady malaise, a steady state of decline. It seemed that guys stepped up because they chose to, not because of anything being done by the coaches. The system, with its invariant changes, lent itself to malaise.
There needed to be a culture change. The program in some ways had to die before it could be reborn. Everything happening with guys leaving and such is understandable. The talent drop off is well documented, especially on defence. Coach Rodriguez has also done things that have brought the program under a cloud. That is his baby to deal with. But in the end culture change is painful and it will take at least 5 years to fully clean house and get this program to where it needs to be. Be patient people.