Make the case for retaining Hoke

I have to admit, I am kinda curious to see what happens with a 9-man punt formation.

There is no case where he should come back. 

I won't. You can't make me.

and wondered how there could possibly be 125 responses.

All of the other coaches on the planet are dead.

OSU will have to be just blowing us off not to play well against us. OSU has something more to play for. I think it will get kind of ugly. Only thing that may keep it under a 3 TD win for OSU will be our D playing well. But we really don't have an offense!

Hoke will  have to go no matter what. If not we are looking at another 6-6 to 8-4 season next year, and Hoke will not get his contract renewed. We will not any hope of staying competitive with MSU or OSU.

Retain Hoke, IF we blitz OSU 70-0 and win a bowl game with over 600yds of offense.

Hoke is a really nice guy and I do like him.  It's a shame it didn't work out.  He's a good dude.

I DO NOT want Hoke back under any circumstances next year.  But, for the sake of playing, here's my attempt:

1.  If we win out, we will have a record of 8-5 (including bowl win), which is an improvement over last year.  You could go a step further and note that of our losses, one was RU, which had a disputed call at the end that could have changed the result.

2.  Our defense is really good.  Top 10 nationally.  And we return a lot of talent from that unit and add back in Peppers and Morgan.  In fact, much of our depth chart at defense is still really young.

3.  While the offense has struggled, you can't look at this as year 4.  Hoke didn't have a real chance to recruit before his first year, and on OL, at least, the cupboard was really bare from RichRod.  Really bare.  At a minimum, you can look at this as year 3 for the development project that is our offense.  Also, we changed coordinators this year and implimented a whole new scheme.  While this is an excuse, it does offer some justifications as to the struggles of our offense.

4.  As a related point to the above, the OL really has seemed to improve over the course of the season.  This bodes well for next year, when the entire two-deep returns.  And the year after.

5.  Stability pays off.  While we are all frustrated, it sometimes takes a few years for a coach to get things clicking.  The great Harbaug was 8-5 in his third season at Stanford (the same record Hoke would have if he wins out), and Mark Dantonio was 6-7 in year 3.  If you make some allowances for Hoke because of the state of the roster and DB's stupid process, and treat this as year 3, then Hoke is not doing as poorly as it looks.

6.  The promise of next season.  Our team is really young.  We return just about everyone on both sides of the ball.  While we lose Devin G, he has been a huge liability this year, and after a full offseason to improve, Shane could be at least as good.  Even if he just learns to be a game manager, with EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on offense returning (and adding Ty Isaacs, who could be our best back), we should be pretty good on offense.  If the defense just keeps pace with this year, I expect good things. 

There's my case.  Do I want to keep Hoke?  HELL NO, but there is at least a credible argument for doing so.

Thoughts?

It takes a lot to make a stew
A pinch of salt and laughter too
A scoop of kids to add the spice
A dash of love to make it nice
And you've got...

Too many cooks

I don't think I can come up with many reasons for keeping Hoke outside of good recruiter, good man, loves Michigan and nice guy.  Bitch session commence: offense is a train wreck, but perhaps that can be attributed mostly due to Hoke and Nuss going full tilt pro style this season with a QB who may be better suited for a spread.  And I see a lot of comments about the D improving.  Certainly they are the best of the three units, however, I am not so sure if our statistical numbers are inflated due to the crappy offenses we've faced -- App St, NTM, Indiana (with a QB they don't trust to throw the ball), PSU (sactioned to death), NW.  The few offenses we've faced that seem to have a pulse -- ND, Utah, Minnesota, MSU, Rutgers(?) -- the D looked not so great.

always needs to be thinking a few steps ahead of his adversary.  In this case, the "adversary" I'm concerned with is the guy who thinks Hoke could make his case by winning out.  The response is simple -- shut the guy up by giving him what he wants and agreeing that Hoke has earned another year if he wins out.  That's what I call a cost-free concession, and I can personally attest that it works.

I'm bored with the discussions about Hoke saving his job, since we'll know one way or the other soon enough, and since these discussions all rest on the fantasy that this team somehow is not as bad as it has looked all year long (and for a good part of last year).  There is a zero point zero percent chance that this team wins its two remaining games, so to paraphrase War Games, the only winning move in the argument is not to play.

I wondered how this thread was so long and then I stumbled upon the great gender equality debate of 2014.

I enjoy seeing about 5% of the team improve.  I enjoy recruiting solid kids who don't run very fast, but it would be nice to have both.

I enjoy being dejected and pissed off for 12 saturdays a year.  I enjoy press conferences that are so guarded and pathetic that they become comical.  So Hoke should stay.

Last, but not least, I enjoy having the only coach in modern football who doesn't wear a headset.

no.

Has gotten so out of control we now are debating gender studies topics on a football blog on a post about a head coach and offensive cordinators. 

You would have to be really naive or super high to think Hoke has even the smallest clue on how to develop talent, strategize, teach toughness, or win long term. We do have eyes.

Chirping crickets

Honestly I do think it is unfair to fire a coach before 5 completed years. I think that is how long it takes to have a coach be in complete control of personnel and coordinators and scheme and system, etc.

That being said I cant stand watching this team play football. It's awful and in my humble opinion the only reason our D numbers are so good is because we play in the worst "power" conference in college football. Hoke and Co need to go far far away from Michigan.

I've had quite enough of this style of Michigan Football.

 

Without Brandon.... Coincidence?

It will never happen, but if UM finished the year with 4 straight wins and an OSU upset that would rival 1969's, it would mean that this mess is all Dave Brandon's fault ; )

UM has been reduced to such irrelevance that our only solice is that MSU is not in the Big10 championship and OSU will likely not be in the Final 4. Sad state of affairs....

If UM loses to Maryland I would fire Hoke before the OSU game so we can try the Earl "win THE Game for the outgoing coach" Bruce strategy.

 

 

 

The one thing would be if you don't get someone who is an obvious upgrade. That is in the eye of the beholder though since Hermann would almost certainly come here so would he be an upgrade over Hoke? Probably but he doesn't have head coaching experience.

My point is if that is your strongest candidate who would definitely take the job then we may have a problem.

Assuming what has been said about Mullen though we could probably get him who would assuredly be an upgrade. This is of course pending he wants to move and Florida is not in play as has been rumored while Foley remains AD. As long as the guy you are getting is reasonably better than the guy we're replacing then there is every reason to make a change. This is why 2010 is frustrating because I'm not sure how anybody could have credibly argued Hoke had a better record than Rodriguez; it's almost analgous to Morris vs. Gardner.

Let's get Harbaugh and put all of this to bed though.

kthanksboi.

This has been mostly said but

1. The recruiting success and argument that most of his classes haven't been around long enough to evaluate

2. Injuries to Gardner, Peppers, Darnoh, Funchess, Taylor (I'm forgetting a bunch more I'm sure).

3. The cupboard was bare

4. The defense.

5. The transition between styles of offense

6. The rest of this season (must include Maryland win and at least close game against OSU)

DG is injured and has difficulty playing in the new offense. Next year they will have a new QB that will throw more accurate in the pocket for this type of offense. Next year Michigan should have a deep stable of running backs(add Isaac) with experience. Add to that, at least one possible super freshman RB. They should also finally have an older offensive line, who had to deal with all the growing pains from the past two years. This shouldn't be a concern next year. Next year will be the 2nd year in Nuss's offense. With the added practices from a bowl game, it should help out a great deal with getting the returning players well versed in the offense. The offensive coordinator we have now has been successful in previous places. There is no reason to believe that this offense can't become great in the near future. Year three for Darboh, Chesson, Norfleet , and Jake Butt. They should continue to improve. The defense, should be solid too with the return of Morgan at linebacker, the return of Peppers opposite Lewis, and an improving defensive line. The players like and respect Hoke. They don't look like they have quit on him . He's able to recruit well, because kids think he's a genuine and decent fellow. Final reason to retain Hoke is that he supposedly has two decent coordinators. Whatever deficiencies he has on each side of the ball, he doesn't meddle too much. He lets them do their job.

1. The metrics by which a coach should be judged should be more than a win/loss record, whether he punts at the 35-yard-line, or whether a fickle fanbase is agitated. Is the coach carrying himself and his team respectably and honorably? Is the coach building men of character and good reputation? Are the students graduating and becoming successes off the field? Hoke exceeds his predecessor in these regards and I doubt many would impugn his character.

2. Firing someone is an emotional response and generally pointless unless there is a competent plan for what will be done differently the next time. Are there specific candidates who are available who have a better articulated plan for moving the team forward in all measured areas? I am unaware that such a candidate is present and, if not, firing Hoke is the equivalent of changing lanes on a logjammed highway.

3. The team has failed by Hoke's own stated metrics: Beat State, Beat Ohio, Win B1G. While this failure could call for his firing, I would give credit that these are the good metrics for on-field performance.

4. I like Hoke and do not believe him unredeemable. Mattison's defense is an improvement over the RR years and the latter part of the Carr years (and should get even better in 1-2 years). The offensive line is improving as is the running back situation with next year having Green, Smith, Isaac and Johnson. Gardner is a head case and Morris isn't ready. Having a sucky QB situation sucks - ask ND about that.

5. The M00N game was a pure unadulterated P00P of a game. There have been many similar games played inside and out of Michigan stadium over the last four decades. Crappy wins are still wins.

With that said, the odds are that this year will show a clear regression over the duration of Hoke's tenure. That is not consistent with retaining a multi-million dollar/year job. If an outstanding coach of proven pedigree is not available then Mattison should be promoted to HC.

Aliens come down to Earth and kidnap Meyer, Saban, Miles, Patterson, Whittingham, Gundy, Graham, Kelly, Richt, Stoops, Fisher, Malzahn, Mullen.

Then those guys who keep stealing Liam Neelson's daughter show up and kidnap Dantonio, Mora Jr, Helfrich, Peterson, Rich Rod, Snyder, Briles, Anderson, Pellini, Cudcliffe.

Then Liam Neelson dies.

Only in that scenario would a lawyer be able to construct a case to retain Brady Hoke.

ARGUMENT

Meyers walked into a fairly loaded situation, with a team that was already trained to run a similar version of the spread with pieces that had been picked/groomed to run the spread. Meyers has had continuity of coaching, with multiple years of preaching/teaching/recruiting to the same system, and having experienced guys who can teach that system to younger guys. Which brings us to the O-Line. For this "new offensive line," they go: Jr, RS Fr, Jr, RS Soph, RS Sen (according to Rivals Depth Chart). These are guys who had multiple years of experience being trained in this system, before going out onto the field.

Which brings us to Hoke. Hoke was tasked with an offensive and defensive overhaul. There were MAJOR recruiting gaps in the secondary and oline, all of which all well documented here on MGoBlog. The defense has become a solid unit, with 4 straight years of coaching under Mattison. It is starting to show fruits of its labor, as we finally have a secondary that is not a horrible tire fire for the first time since before 2004 (not saying world beating, but not horribly aweful). They have developed 3 star athletes and walk ons into solid players within the scheme. We also have promise out of young players like Lewis and Mario.

Offense: RR had recruited to his spread system and was around just long enough to have removed any resemblance of the old Pro-System under Carr while also having left major gaps in OLine recruiting. Hoke, for better or worse, had an OC in Borges that he gave imense freedom to, who struggled to play to the teams strengths while overcoming their weaknesses. As a coach of a new program in year two, when you are out gunned, you are willing to take more risks out of desperation. Year 3, out of desperation, we had a system that was not a system. While it put up points, it gave up massive sacks and could not run the ball despite a Sr Wr, Rb, 2 NFL Tackles, and RS Jr QB. Our opponents said in out of season interviews that we were a system of no-systems. You could not prepare for us, but you could count on us not being prepared.

Upon Borges' removal, Nuss was brought in to complete the transition from Spread to Pro-Man-Ball-Awesomeness. Nuss inhereted a mess. The "experienced players" were playing under their third OC in 5 years and were good at no particular skills/systems. Then, there were young but promising players who... did not know any system. So Nuss has had to start from scratch, and the fruits are slowly beginning to take form after only 9 months. Our PTSD QB is not getting sacked a ridulous number of times. Running backs are getting yards out of basic formations that do not required Double-Tackle-Over trickery. WRs are getting open (even if the QB has not found them yet, or the ball being dropped). Another year or two of developing people and recruiting to the system will have the potential to yield the dynamic results we are hoping for, that cannot be magically pulled out of a hat.

So the argument is this: OSU's stability and consistency has brought it prosperity. Michigans turmoil and near perpectual change and brought chaos. With a solid-and-improving defense and a steadily improving offense (not good, but improving), to get rid of Hoke (more importantly Nuss and Mattison, who I think are good coordinators) is to subject this group to ANOTHER major overhaul, just when they are finally starting to gain some traction. 

This question seems so absurd that I can only believe that the author is someone close to Hoke and they need some ideas before sitting down with Hackett at the end of the year!

I refuse to assist in this quest for spin!

There is nothing that man can do, in my eyes, to save his job. Sure he's a nice guy and recruited well, but:

-Shane-gate
-Issues with Gibbons
-Team as a whole has regressed each year he's been here
-He's gotten his ass kicked by Sparty 3 out of the 4 years he's been here, and almost lost to them in 2012 anyway.
-Can't beat Meyer
-ZERO player development
-The D-Line, his supposed specialty, is average at best.
-Recruits are dropping like flies
-By all accounts, has a complete inability to make in-game adjustments.

I'd like to thank Hoke for his efforts. I know he wants the best for his team, and I know the kids love him. But he's just not getting the job done. When you don't perform for an extended period of time, you get fired. It happens all across the country every single day. I hope he can beat OSU in a few weeks so he can ride off into the sunset on a high note, but I'm not holding my breath.

Here's the major problem with keeping Hoke, we won;t develop players to replace Clark, Ryan, Gardner, and Fuchess.

You can see the young defensive talent we have flash on occasion, Lewis, Henry, Taco, Omijuda etc.  These players need to be developed into more consistent players.  Who are the consistently good players we have on this team?  Clark, Ryan, Bolden, and Fuchess are the most consistently good to great players we have, no one else is as consistently good IMO.  We only return 1 of those 4 players if Fuchess leaves as expected, that's a scary thought. 

We have to have the right staff in place as soon as possible so our young talent can have a chance to be great.  Hoke returninig would mean that like the previous 3 years, the consistently good players we have will not be replaced for the most part.  Go through the years and we've gone from having 20-25 consistently good players in 2011 to 15 or so in 2012 to 10 or so in 2013 to 4 or 5 in 2014, next year that could be 1 or 2.  We are not replacing the good players we lose to graduation, the track record is established, there is zero reason to think next season will be any different.

Consistency is what separates the good/great players from the ones who just flash occasionally.  Otherwise all you have is a bunch of players who maybe make an impressive play a time or two a game, but then disappear.