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Maize and Brew calls out Brian/MGo
1.) It really wasn't a phenominal recuriting class by anymeans. However given the situation that Hoke had to work with once he got here, what he did with the recuriting class can certainly be argued as phenominal.
2.) To do proper dillgence? As he said this isn't some quick decision... the impact of his hire is obviously huge and will be huge for years and years to come. So he interviewed people, one of them was likely Les Miles. Now what if, and I know this always seems so foreign to this board. But what if he interviewed both candidates (and he claimed he interviewed more too) and Hoke was simply who he thought was better for the job?
3.) I don't think he gets Absolute Faith at all. There is a difference between trust, giving one the benefit of the doubt, and "Absoulte faith." Just because one doesn't agree with your opinion of Dave Brandon doesn't mean they have absolute faith in him. (Not saying you feel that way either.)
4.) Just think of RR was fired after the OSU game and Michigan waxed MSU in the bowl. I don't think that the decision came down to the bowl game, but I think it certainly had the possibility of him saviing his job.
5.) That one I completely agree with.
how ready you are to move on with UM football. For most of us, there is no choice.
I am not going to change allegance, but continue to have open and festering wounds and a high level of disgust about the ugliness unleashed in the media and fanbase from the RR era.
I need time to accept the new staff/direction and will give the benifit of the doubt, but I can not kill the idea in me that thinks RR was exactly right about this team's future. I need to see it on the field.
I do not want Hoke to become the light beer version of LLoyd Carr.
That was my first time visiting that site, and it will be my last. My biggest problem was when he slighted the need for diversity on the coaching staff. Come on man, that is the most common of common sense, especially in what is probably the most diverse city in MI. That was just complete ignorance
wow, I didnt realize so many people on this site were against diversity, kinda sad
Perhaps they just like real diversity, not the fashionable ivory tower "diversity" which is defined as seperate groups of superficially similar people who purportedly think the same way.
But I think it might help. I don't think anybody's against diversity. But in some weird way, forcing diversity isn't diversity. And people who make one factor "the" defining requirement are not doing much for the spirit of diversity. Diversity is appreciating the differences in each other and seeing value in them. The only way diversity is being impeded is if a certain factor is being wrongfully discriminated against, not if there isn't a high enough occurrence of that factor. That's just circumstance, and there are a lot of other factors being considered in this than that one. I think that's why people don't like the diversity criticism.
There's only so long you can look past obvious problems before you have to make a change.
I pretty much feel like this is a fight that I gotta roll wit my boy. I don't know Brian personally, but I feel what he's talking about 85% of the time. You my boy blue!
I'm sick of this argument. DB did what he said he was going to do all along, flawed as his process may be. Brady Hoke solidified the recruiting class quickly, and did it better than expected for the time he had to work with. So, yes, I do think DB's "process" was flawed, but it worked out pretty well in the end. Can we just start looking forward to the spring game now???!!!
Other than stealing recruits from Minny, Indiana and Vandy...I mean, just think about those programs for a second...Minnesota, Indiana and Vandy. I think there is casue for concern with this.
I know Hoke had very limited time, but I take issue with the claim that Hoke did a great job. I wouldn't have an issue with someone saying that Hoke should get a wash with this BECAUSE of Brandon and his damned Process, but this is a poor class by M standards.
After the previous three years. It's not like we've been going head to head against Ohio State, USC, and Texas and winning many battles. (We've gotten practically no one Ohio State has wanted from Ohio). And have been losing ground recruiting against Penn State, MSU and those level teams. I don't really see the difference between snake-oiling someone from Purdue, or snake-oiling someone from...Purdue. Neither is good. But if it continues next year, like it has for the last four, then there's reason to worry.
"And have been losing ground recruiting against Penn State, MSU and those level teams."
have we? we RRod had Zettel all but locked up, Dee Hart persuaded from Bama, and Kris Frost who chose Auburn, Jake Fisher who went to Oregon... I could keep going...
Please do, since none of those were definites anyway.
Frost wanted to go to Auburn while his parents wanted him to go to Michigan. Dee left Michigan before Rodriguez was fired. He was never locked up and wanted to go where HaHa was going. Zettel was locked up? Got some proof for that one? Fisher was locked up.
In addition to the names mentioned above, who despite your feelings all were either committed to UM or rumored to be silent (save for Zettel)
Crawford went to Miami...
Lucien went to UCLA...
Furthermore, there are other names that The Process affected, such as Avery Walls.
And we replace these kids who are going to Auburn, Bama, Penn State, and Miami, with kids that would have been going to Minnesota, Indiana, and Vanderbilt. BUT OUR CLASS RULEZZ OMG HOKEAMANIA!!!!!
2 of the commits Hoke did procure, Taylor & Rawls (and to a lesser extent Bryant & Poole), were likely to come to UM regardless of who the coach was.
I'm not saying Hoke did a bad job, he didn't. But to insist that the class would not have been better is DUMB. yes, dumb.
Is the class poor by typical Michigan recruiting standards? Sure. Is it poor considering we changed coaches less than 4 weeks before signing day? I don't think so. I was watching Rivals recruiting rankings during the whole process, and before Hoke started bringing in recruits, we were ranked 41st in the country and either 6th or 7th in the Big Ten(I can't remember which). Now that the class is finalized, Rivals has us rated 21st in the country and 3rd in the Big Ten, behind only tOSU and Nebraska. I'd say that was a pretty strong finish.
It is weak for UM standards because of The Process - not because of Hoke or Rodriguez - it's because of Brandon. This is not a logical stretch at all. Retain Rodriguez = stronger class. Fire Rodriguez sooner since you KNOW Hoke is available = stronger class.
Who is it gonna be mgoblog or maizenbrew,. Let the bitchslapping begin !
I think it's a little early to 'omg Hoke is a snake-oilin' mofo'
This class is not even ranked by ESPN in the top 25, as compared to 2008 in which they M was 13th, 10th in 2009 and 14th last season (yes, admitting certain people did not make it to campus), but this isn't an amazing class by any stretch.
This class is worse off now than it would have been, but whateves
In general, I am a fan of Brian's analysis. I enjoy his candor, humor and cynical eye. My take on the Maize and Brew article is that they are sick of the "What if" argument. Brian, and others (including myself) have been posing a lot of "what if" questions about our program i.e. what would have happened if RR had stayed? What if Hoke was hired a month sooner? What if this or that recruit hadn't decomitted/comitted to the program.
The fact of the matter is, we will never know. We have the coach we have, we got him when we got him, the recruits that signed with us this week are the recruiting class of 2011 and that, for the most part, is not going to change.
Part of intelligent discourse is open debate which is another thing I like about this website, but to continually raise questions that perhaps undermine what the program is doing is perhaps a bit counterintuitive considering how and why we got to this point.
I am all for criticizing the product if the results aren't there. If Michigan lays a big egg against our closest rivals again and is a non-factor in the conference, I say let the shit hit the fan. Until then however, I think giving the current organization room to cut a path for itself is the best move for those who follow the program as closely as the people in this forum so charismatically do.
Here's to a great year, Go Blue!
If if's and but's were candy and nut's then we would all have a merry fucking Christmas.
I don't think people are saying there's anything wrong with a different opinion. I just don't think that this is a particularly well-reasoned one. I read most of the Maize n Brew post, but I should have stopped reading after this paragraph:
Just longer. And with some admitted overhype of the recruiting class. It could be said to be a great recovery in a horrible situation, but not objectively great. The #21 recruiting class next year will get no one excited.
Though part of that is a lot of wishful thinking on what the class was headed to actually be too. Fisher is most likely in the fold, and maybe Crawford. But Frost has flat out said he wanted to go to Auburn, his parents wanted him to go to Michigan; Zettel didn't even wait to see if Rich would bs around before he committed to PSU, and never wavered; and Hart has been flip-flopping for months, causing meltdowns. We'll never know who was coming, and how much was Rich leaving, and how much was all the losing, which would have left Rich on the hot seat if he had stayed. We were middle of the Big Ten, low 20s - mid-30s when Rich was still recruiting. It seemed like a reach to say all this talent was coming for sure, and we were headed to a top ten recruiting class. It would have been a few slots better, but it would have been our fourth straight below standards class in any regard. Next Year's recruiting will be the sign of program direction.
Good for Maize and Brew. MGOBLOG is good, but it's refreshing to hear someone else with another opinion. Also, just because someone interprets something differently doesn't make them uninformed.
who call out "the process" and say that we would be fine if we just cleaned out our defensive staff, how do you know that option wasnt on the table? db could have told rich to fire everyone on that side of the ball, while rich for whatever reason (because of loyality or being fed up with michigan, or something) decided not to do that.
people look at a two-day meeting and draw their own conclusions about how rich was fired, when in reality we don't know the circumstances, what was discussed, and what, if any, ultimatums existed.
I've heard the ultimatum theory before. You are right, no one knows what options RR was presented with, but I don't think there was a lot of doubt whether or not he was going. To think that he was offered an option to can his whole defensive staff and bring in a DC guru I think is highly unlikely. If was was an option, I really don't see why RR wouldn't subscribe to that. In his interviews he has been very candid about his disappointment in not being able to finish the job. If DB would have said, "Fire GERG and live to coach another day," I feel like he probably would have gone with it.
GERG, theoretically, would not have been the only one fired. so would gibson and dews, who both have been with rich for a long time.
anyways, thats ancillary to my point im trying to make. the thing is, people who complain about the process do so by saying that "if only we had a new defensive staff..." what they fail to realize is that could have been a viable option that was turned down. no one knows. but to bitch and moan about something that may or may not have happened seems, at this point, completely unnecessary.
There is so much we don't know. It almost seems like the frustration of Brandon being correct that others had only 5% of his total information, has spilled over into speculation without basis. This is especially apparent among people who were dogmatically pro-Rich.
People who choose to take Brandon totally at face value that Rich still was in the running through the Gator Bowl, might be totally right. If that was the case, there is really no griping that can be done about any process defects. We had a coach that coached himself out of town via on field performance while given everything he was publicly promised to make his case. What's the big deal?
And to be honest, I agree more with his points than with Brian's. I'm not one for bashing someone on their site, or even bashing at all, but there are a lot of positives now:
A coaching staff with a healthy balance in philosophy- defense first (big sigh of relief), molding strategies to talent rather than talent to strategies (Borges-Denard, we'll see how much)
A great, proven, and respected DC
A quality recruiting class that matches our vast deficiencies (notice the quick change in recruiting directions when Hoke came on board)
No disrespect to RR or anyone else, and of course, we'll see what happens. But I'm breathing a lot easier than I was before the change. And I'm a lot more optimistic. At this point, I'm not going to bash the process or the results.
I have to say that I agree with most of what Dave is saying ("great" is a little strong for the recruiting class, but I think people here are under-selling it). The most critical point there is that Brandon may well have kept RichRod if we played well in that bowl game. It seems like a lot of people here don't credit that as a possibility, but I tend to believe it. That debacle would have been too hard of a sell, even with defensive changes, when the offense wasn't performing either.
I'm replying to you because I've been picking on Nate Volk too much lately, though he made much the same point.
The problem with The Process was not that he might have kept RR if M hadn't laid such an egg in the Gator Bowl, and so DB wouldn't have been able to sell his retention to the alumni or whatever. On that, I think you're probably right. The problem was that he didn't appear to have a contingency plan in place for that possibility. So when he fired RR after the Gator Bowl and then announced a "national search," there were only two conclusions:
- That's bullshit. You've got someone in the fold already and this whole thing has been a dog and pony show; or
I think reasonable people who disagree about other matters can agree that neither option makes DB look particularly competent.
Finally, to the extent that The Process can be linked to The Results of the Process, I think it's fair to say that if you were told in advance of The Process that the Results of the Process would be that we would get a sub-.500 coach who has had two good years at minor conferences, and would lose most of our top-ranked recruits, you would think The Process was a fucking disaster.
Now, the sub-.500 coach we happened to get is a helluva good guy by all accounts, and he hit the equivalent of a 9th innning grand slam in the 7th game of the World Series by landing Mattison. But I personally can hold two sets of thoughts simultaneously in my head, and I don't think they are contradictory:
- I am optimistic about Hoke/Mattison, and I love this Michigan team and I will root my balls off for them; and
- The Process was a total clusterfuck.
have a contingency plan. We've heard rumors for a long time that DB liked Hoke. And after everything Hoke has done, including bring in Mattison, who wouldn't?
It doesn't have to be: either Hoke was the guy all along and we were viciously lied to, or DB had no clue. Perhaps he had a good idea he had Hoke, a guy he was confident in, in the bag, and then he went out, with that confidence, looking for other options when the search came. Sounds like a pretty good situation to me. And honest.
Remember how there was supposedly a meeting with Hoke right when the search began? And then after DB flew around talking to other guys?
Sounds like the formal interview took place, DB did his search, and he went away with the best available option, one he was previously very confident in. Just because I wasn't confident in Hoke when I'd only seen cursory stats and heard Brian's opinion, doesn't mean he isn't amazing. And he's made a lot of pretty sweet moves since he came to town. In fact, I like everything he's said and done.
I'm not so down on the process now either.
I can only deal with discussion so many times...
No one can say that the DB process was good. Sorry. There is no argument.
No one can argue that our class would have been better if a coach had been in place in early December instead of middle of January.
Also, no one can argue that Hoke pulled off a minor miracle by securing the class that he did.
All of those are true.
Except, you know, no. None of those are absolutes.
Ohio State Notes Yes I'm Blatantly Stealing Mgoblog's Format
Oh no, difference of opinions! Run for the hills!!!
And for reference, the alt-text:
Fun fact: if you say this every time a professor does something to a complex-number equation that drops the imaginary part, they'll eventually move the class to another room and tell everyone else except you.
This quote from that article is SPOT-ON, and really summed up why RR should have been canned.....
"21 points scored in Michigan's last two games while surrendering 89. 0-6 against Michigan's biggest rivals in games that were less competitive each year Michigan played them"
I hate that 0-6 stat for two reasons. 1) I hate that we haven't beaten MSU or OSU in at least three years. 2) Where's Notre Dame?!?! I, and I know many others, consider ND to be the second biggest rival. ND at least has to be considered an equal rival. But I guess 2-7 doesn't sound as bad as 0-6.
2-7 sounds pretty bad to me.
Or 2-8 when you talk about rivalry games and bowl games (or bowl game in this case). Any way you slice it, it comes up bad.
Listen, if the problem with RR was 0-6 in the biggest rivalry games, then this process should not have started in January. Period. We had the same 0-6 record in early December as we did in early January.
The Process is a lie and I have a hard time being buying any other belief. Admittedly I base it solely on those early Jan pressers that DB gave. The man was totally out of character, no smooth pimp hand and well planned corporate announcements. He had wild eyes, looked like he was only awake due to the fact he was injecting himself directly with expresso and was snippy and bitchy to reporters.
I didn't see a process, I saw "Harbaugh took the 49ers job and Les isn't returning my calls, aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.........".
He had all of December to find a primary target* and if Hoke really was that target he could have announced Hoke 5 minutes after firing RR. Actually more like 48 hours because you don't want it to seem like you were preparing to fire RR prior to 1 Jan (due to buyout issues), but he could have had Hoke with 48 hours and a pseudo coaching search. No need for a week of twisting in the wind.
*Even if his mind wasn't made up to fire RR, he should have accepted that there was a nonzero chance he'd fire RR post bowl and begun some at least low level searching and reflection on candidates.
This class is kind of ass. We didn't fill some serious needs and over half our class is mid/low three stars according to Rivals. That's not a knock on Hoke or Rodriguez, they did their best considering the circumstances.
OP should probably link to the story, not the main page of the blog...
Reading the comments on that article makes me greatly appreciate our community here.
The number of people regurgitating the "Michigan Man", "spread doesn't work in the Big Ten", and "didn't understand the rivalry" meme made me sick.