M Football Using Hydraulic Lifts?
Great to see spring practice today, but I noticed in the background of several pictures that M is still using hydraulic lifts during practices. I know that Notre Dame no longer uses these lifts after the unfortunate incident with a ND student assistant falling to his death after a lift was pulled over during a storm.
ND has since said that they will no longer use lifts, period, and instead use remote cameras, presumably for safety reasons. (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/14815438/indiana-faults-notre-dame-for-hydraulic-lift-accident)
Does anyone know if hydraulic lifts are generally being phased out as an unsafe practice for FB practice, or if ND is just being proactive in avoiding any possible issue involving such lifts ever again and most schools (including M) stil use them?
I know the day Declan Sullivan died RR took practice indoors, in part because of the lifts.
I doubt there's a problem with them when you have a coach who cares enough to make sure they're used properly.
Also because its pretty damn tough to throw a pass accurately with a 50 mph wind.
Yea, but they could do other things in the wind. I'm sure their practices aren't light on conditioning, and you can run in the wind (I can attest to this as a former XC runner in Chicago).
I doubt conditioning would be filmed. Kelly is a far bigger douche than what he is given credit for. The winds on that day were gusting well over 50mph on that day if I recall correctly and yet at no point does the thought cross his mind that the kid 40 feet in the air might be in danger. Kelly and every adult in shouting distance that day should be ashamed of themselves as well as being charged with negligence.
I agree, just using an example of outdoor activity that could take place in bad conditions.
I'll also be that guy, and say that if this had been a non-revenue sport, Kelly would be gone. That situation, and ND's handling of it, was disgusting. I don't care if it's Fielding Yost, if his negligence led to a death, he needs to go. Yet another reason I'm glad I'm not a Domer. I would be embarrassed.
It was partially about football, partially about safety, and partially about wanting to practice where they could film.
But therein lies the difference. Michigan wanted to film, so they went somewhere they could safely film. Notre Dame wanted to film, so they sent Declan Sullivan 50 feet in the air in entirely unsafe conditions.
Whatever you may have heard about michigan going inside to practice that day isn't exactly true. and by "isn't exactly true," i mean that it isn't true at all. And from my personal understanding, the vast majority of coaches don't pay attention to those things until people get hurt or killed. Other people are paid to watch out for such things, but they have no real power over coaches because the coaches are the ones who say whether or not they keep their jobs. It's a terrible system. I'm shocked more student workers haven't been hurt or killed or that seems don't seem to have changed since the Notre Dame incident. Also, "properly secured" is not a phrase I would use to describe Michigan's hydraulic lifts. Probably not a good phrase to describe any college football teams' lifts, actually.
"Kelly's week got worse when Michigan coach Rich Rodriguez told AnnArbor.com that he met with his video coordinator and moved the team's practice indoors on the same day last week due to high winds. "
Link.
I never said properly secured, I said used properly.
As to the not paying attention, it's probably true. However, it's not the victims problem. Kelly was in charge of the practice, including safety for student workers, and failed miserably. He's paid millions of dollars to manage every part of the program. He failed, and it cost a student his life.
April 14th, 2011 at 10:00 PM ^
Great username! Very original and I hope you manage to post more. Captain Obvious and Sean Ornery, you have officially been one-upped.
April 14th, 2011 at 10:04 PM ^
He just pointed out what he said was an error (I'm pretty confident that it isn't, but he could be RR for all I know) and explained a minority view on the topic.
I happen to think his opinion is incorrect, but he's not being an ass.
April 14th, 2011 at 10:19 PM ^
Thanks. I don't try to come off like an ass but I know something about this stuff and figured it was worth it to post something that I knew. And I know RR said that, but the day they practiced inside was actually the day before the incident happened--and precisely because the wind speeds were gonna be too high for lifts.The next day they were indeed outside. His comments bring to mind the phrase "massaging the truth," probably only because I've watched too much 30 rock lately. And I'm not trying to be all dickish about details. My broader point is simply that while Michigan staff acted more appropriately that day (incredibly more appopriately, actually) than ND staff and took some precautions, it's more a matter of luck than anything else. I 'm just suggesting that maybe michigan didn't have a policy about the lifts until someone heard on the news that a student videographer died. And Michigan wouldn't be alone in that.
And yes I know the responsibility is Kelly's, I'm not trying to blame the victim. I think Kelly should be fired from things Iv'e heard about who made decisions that day. I just think it's a shame it won't happen.
April 14th, 2011 at 10:27 PM ^
It sounds like you're right now that I'm looking more into it. However, it also seems the lifts were lowered to less than half of the height Sullivan fell from. A Clemson blog breaks it down and says that Illinois, Indiana, Nebraska and Kentucky auto-ground their lifts at 25. I don't know what M's policy is, but from the stories that came out it seemed like this wouldn't have taken place at Michigan or at most schools. Kelly's staff ordered him up there after he voiced concerns about his safety, I doubt RR would have allowed that on his staff.
I wasn't trying to say that you were blaming the victim, by the way. Just pointing out that Kelly is the one with authority, and Declan Sullivan didn't have any.
April 15th, 2011 at 10:03 AM ^
Is this verified?
April 15th, 2011 at 10:24 AM ^
By IOSHA, yes. The quote below is from the Chicago Tribune, link.
"He had voiced his objections about filming outside to a team staffer shortly before going onto the practice field, records show."
April 14th, 2011 at 10:27 PM ^
Please accept my apologies.
As for Kelly being fired: Not after he beat USC his first year. That was what, an eight-year slide for the Irish? All he's got to do is beat Michigan once every 3 years and he's all set.
April 14th, 2011 at 10:36 PM ^
Which is pathetic. Like I said before, even if this was Yost, he needs to go. I mean, the guy was in charge of a practice that IOSHA ruled was directly responsible for a death of an employee under him.
No way a coach at M survives this. Not Yost, not Bo, not Red, not Hutch. This was bush league from ND, all the way through.
April 14th, 2011 at 11:15 PM ^
sadly true haha. I know that its good for your team when your opponents have good seasons, but i enjoyed watching ND's games a lot more the first half of the season than the second for some reason...
And justingoblue, M's policy as told to the media is that the lifts are automatically grounded at 28 mph. This is portrayed as something that existed before the accident. It wasn't. I think youre right that this wouldn't have happened under RR--but not because he wouldn't let it. Let's just say I don't think RR gave two shits about what the videographers were doing much of the time and it's good that there are relatively sensible people at michigan who did. And I think Kelly's staff made it very clear that they wanted the best film they could get, regardless of the weather. I think a lot of people never had reason to think about the possibility of wind knocking over a lift, and I'm guessing Kelly probably thought it wasn't something that would ever happen. Doesn't excuse ignorance or negligence, but I don't think people think about it when the lifts are used every day and only two have fallen in the last ten years or so
April 14th, 2011 at 11:37 PM ^
I don't have any hands on experience with RR or taping, but from everything I've heard about the guy he seems to run a program with the right things in mind. Whether this translates to daily activities like filming, I'll admit that I don't know. I would think that (given his reputation) he would either see to something or delegate responsibility. He didn't show this with his defense, but I digress.
I think this also shows from the lifts at ND being twice as high as the ones at M, when weather was almost identical. From the list (link here, I forgot to add it last time) of other schools I mentioned, it seemed like they had policies in place beforehand. Good talk though, obviously you either were/are with the program or are very close to someone who was/is, hopefully something else will come up where you have an answer.
The one thing I will say with certainty, and I said this above, is that RR or Hoke wouldn't survive this in all likelihood, even if RR was 3-0 against OSU.
April 15th, 2011 at 12:09 AM ^
Yeah I agree with you that a michigan coach would be fired if it happened here under the same circumstances. And I think RR was a good guy and a good coach. I think he generally did run his program the right way, at least in terms of caring for players and putting their education and welfare first. I think the issue is not so much human decency (I don't think Kelly was callous or uncaring about the death of someone he was responsible for), but that at Michigan the coaches put less pressure on the support staff than at ND--in this one specific regard, at least. I know michigan's lifts were at less than half height, but keep in mind the wind was blowing faster than 28 mph and they were still up. Either they didn't have a policy or they weren't adhering to it if you believe that said policy existed before the accident. I'm just saying that the coaching staff at Michigan maybe didn't say that the videographers had to go up all the way because the coaches didn't really care, and that maybe previous Michigan coaches were just like Kelly in that they did care and didn't understand the potential danger that caused. Maybe being the key word here, if you understand
April 15th, 2011 at 12:20 AM ^
I don't think Kelly was callous. However, that doesn't relieve him of responsibility. I realize that he has to live with this, but that doesn't excuse ND from not taking a stance. Kelly might not be the one directly responsible (he's still responsible indirectly, no matter what), but ND employing the guy who ordered Sullivan up even after he expressed concerns about his safety is just terrible. If he was working at "Notre Dame Goldsmith" and a case like this came around, there would be no question about his employment status.
I don't know about M having a policy or not; but they handled the situation much, much better than ND did. Whether it was enough, I don't know. Like I said before, I think RR would have pulled the videographers without hesitation if there was a perceived danger, and I assume this would extend to his staff.
I do think that the other schools I listed did have a policy, just because the timing of that article makes me think that they did research and found those policies somewhere in the immediate aftermath of the case, before the other schools would comment.
April 15th, 2011 at 12:33 AM ^
Fair enough. I agree about the other schools (I wasn't trying to say earlier that no schools had reasonable policies, just that most probably didn't, or worse, didn't adhere to them) and I think Kelly should be fired. I think it sounds like were basically in agreement
April 15th, 2011 at 12:37 AM ^
Yea, but what would MGoBlog be without saying a whole lot to other people that you actually agree with, and then realize you agreed all along?
Great first day posting, by the way. As an FYI BlueDragon is actually a cool guy and I have no idea why he went off like that. You should keep up the contributions, since it's pretty obvious you either do something or know people.
as long as you use them smartly, there should be no problem. ND used them during severe wind gusts, which was flat out stupid. As long as you use them responsibly, I don't see a problem with using them
I believe they are being proactive. What happened was terrible, but that's why better judgement needs to be used in that instance and I am sure that many many colleges aren't going to invest in remote camera's because of ND's misjudgement.
This is why I think it would be smart for the Sullivans to sue (if they can, apparently that's murkey at best). It would force every college football program to do remote cameras or have very strict procedures for using the lifts when they were awarded a big settlement.
My understanding was that the Sullivans were planning to sue, in which case I assumed that both for safety reasons as well as fear of potential negligence suits Michigan would avoid using the lifts. Hence, my surprise to see one in use at spring practice.
So being sued for millions of dollars is a bigger deterrent than having a student die on campus working for the school? Are you actually putting thought into this?
Did you put thought into this? I said every other college. M didn't have a student die, neither did Texas or USC; my point was that the AD's at these schools would put more into their procedures if there was a tangible cost associated with operating lifts incorrectly.
This is how things work; it's why cars have certain safety features. It's why electrical cords don't shock people to death regularly.
Be thankful that it hasn't happened at UM or any other school. If a student dying isn't a big enough deterrent on its own without additional tangible cost, then I have no idea what that school stands for.
Doing the right thing should never be motivated by some monetary loss when you're talking about someone's safety and well being, their safety and well being should always be motivation enough.
But a lot of safety practices are put into place after lawsuits. Bit of a dumb example, but the "Caution: Hot" label comes to mind right away.
That's not the debate. The question is, "which is more of a deterrent: having a student die, or having a student die AND getting sued for millions of dollars?"
Besides, as someone who just paid $123 dollars to RENT a cap and gown for graduation, I can tell you that Notre Dame... shall we say... cares about nickels and dimes, and keeps an eye on its checkbook.
I really thought you would understand this above anyone
You should change your "smug rating" to something like "ridiculous".
speaking of sigs
April 14th, 2011 at 10:02 PM ^
What about sigs?
Exactly, I'm guessing safety standards aren't being ignored in the case of us using them. The lifts are safe if used properly.
having been to a handful of football practice facilities, using these lifts is a common practice. the use of these devices are unsafe under certain weather conditions, whether or not it is used to record football practice video or other industrial uses.
ND used these lifts during heavy wind. they were improperly using a tool very likely against the use guidelines of the lifts.
If a school has the proper guidelines, I see no problem with continuing to use lifts. THey are as safe as can be expected, provided they are not used in inappropriate conditions (i.e. during a monsoon).
The difference is that Notre Dame (a) wants to honor Declan Sullivan by making changes, (b) wants to look like they are 'solving the problem', and (c) had their toy taken away because they showed they could not be trusted to operate it safely.
They may be phasing them out. Or, much more logically, they probably just appended the lift cameraman's handbook to say "Winds > 30? Stay on the ground."
That's already in the book. It's why ND was found liable for Declan Sullivan's death.
Wow it was? That makes the story even more shocking to me then.
IIRC the guidelines said no gusts over ~25mph. Sullivan died in a 54mph gust. IOSHA found them (ND) responsible for sending him up in unsafe conditions and for failing to use the equipment properly. Their probe found that Sullivan voiced objections to being up in those conditions, and someone on the football staff basically said "tough shit, get up there". Also, something like M, MSU, OSU, IU, Ill and Purdue took the videographers off of the lifts that day.
Nobody will ever convince me that Kelly didn't sign that kids death warrant, and I can't believe there were no criminal charges filed against him.
Kelly should surely have been fired. That is truly outrageous and despicable.
And yeah, I'll go along with some sort of criminal negligence as well.
Article on the legal side from the IOSHA findings. I can't find the article explaining other schools, but I know for a fact that RR moved practice inside, in part due to wind.
Edited to add that OSU has fixed remote cameras. They didn't have anyone to take down, so I was wrong on that account.
What ever happened with the rumor about them editing the videos that were turned in as evidence?
I actually hadn't heard that, but after Google helped me out, it looks like they refused to hand over the tapes and then highly doctored the ones they did let investigators see. So, not a rumor actually.
Brian Kelly also told investigators that it was a "beautiful day". And we're all over Tressel for something as trivial as playing kids who broke the rules and lying about it...Kelly is far worse than that.
April 15th, 2011 at 12:03 PM ^
If it's in the hand book then they dont show it to the camera men and women. I work events for the BTN and ESPN, and no one has ever showed me anything. I hate these lifts. any move ment makes you feel uneasy. I was only told to ware a harness(so you would not fall off the lift) If the lift goes over you are screwed. I have been on these lifts for many sports at michigan and michigan st. It is sad what happened to the kid at ND. I bet he did not want to make the coach's mad, so he did not say anything. He just tweeted it. I have been on these lifts and not felt safe. But you dont want to say anything to make the director mad. Not any more! If I am working and dont feel safe and anyone gives me shit for it, all I say is Notre Dame. I know the schools care and the networks do to about safty, but I think people get to busy and just say get it done or make it work. And a kid is now dead. Because no one took the time to say wait a second. This is not a good idea.
He complained to a member of the football staff, it's in the link I put in one of these posts.
Your story just further illustrates the need for ND to be faced with some huge civil settlement (thirty million was estimated by some papers). This carelessness needs to stop.
This could be a viable alternative...I am sure Brandon could squeeze this in the football budget.
Everyone knows a Preditor can't keep up with Denard. They need a bunch of lifts with fixed cameras and they put the movie together frame by frame based off of that.